Altium Designer new pricing model and high end / low end tool in development

[EEVblog]

You're saying Dip Trace is better than Eagle? If that's true, why is Eagle so much more popular?

Because it is the defacto standard. Most of the hacker/maker/hobby movement used it because of the free version and everyone else used it. Yes, DIP Trace have a free version too, but has far less publicity and word of mouth support, so they didn't cut a break when the OSHW movement took off.

[Rigby]

You're saying Dip Trace is better than Eagle? If that's true, why is Eagle so much more popular?

You should know very well that popularity has little to do with quality.

[Bassman59]

There are several in the business range.  Cadence (e.g. OrCAD and related) and Mentor Graphics (e.g. PADS) come to mind.

From what I've seen, OrCAD isn't too bad, not nearly as pretty as Altium but not really frustrating; but why anyone would buy PADS, and for what price (anyone know how much it goes for?), is beyond me.

Mentor bought PADS because they wanted a middle-range PCB package, something to complement the $$$$ Expedition package. I looked at it a few years ago, and it seemed like it was very much on par with Altium at the time. Moving to PADS would have been a lateral move. The decision to stay with Altium was made when they dropped the price from like $13K a seat to $3K a seat.

OrCAD probably matches the features of Altium and PADS fairly equally. Obviously they have to.

I suppose that institutional inertia makes companies stick with one package. Revamping libraries is a pain, training is a pain, figuring out how to continue to get access to old designs is a pain. Something really has to suck with your current package to get you to switch.

Oh, one more middle-low-end package is NI's Ultiboard. I bought a copy of Ultiboard 2001 way back when, and it was a competent package, certainly good for what I was doing with it. I never upgraded because it was sufficient.

[DerekG]

OrCAD probably matches the features of Altium and PADS fairly equally. Obviously they have to.

Six years ago OrCAD pretty much matched the schematic side of Altium, but it was quite behind on the PCB layout side. It may be that OrCAD has been catching up on Altium since I last used it in 2008.

ADDED:

At least OrCAD have learnt that you need a low end "Lite Version" to encourage users to try it.

http://www.orcad.com/resources/orcad-lite-overview

"You cannot save boards that have more than 50 components and/or 100 nets. However, you can still view larger designs."

http://www.orcad.com/sites/default/files/resources/files/OrCAD-Lite-Limits.pdf

Are you listening Altium?

Are you an Altium shareholder? Then tackle the board at its next AGM & refuse to have the wool pulled over your eyes for another 10 years!

[K6TR]

As I said in the video, Altium could crush Eagle practically overnight and steal their market share by providing a better price point low end product, and a matching free version.
The ONLY reason Eagle is the defacto standard in the low end is because if had a free version when the hacker/maker movement rose up.

Dave what I call into question is to what degree a low cost version of Designer could displace Eagle.  And what expense Altium is prepared to go to achieve that end. There is little doubt in my mind a low cost version of Designer could demolish Eagle but not without a protracted fight that has the potential to be both costly and embarrassing for Altium.

This is not about engineering or whether Atium could provide a better mouse trap. Its about Altium's marketing and perception of Eagle's Users about its product. There is an old adage in Marketing that it takes 10 times the effort and 10 times the expense to gain the purchase of a new customer versus reselling to an existing customer. The essence of this adage revolves around loyalty that is built up from satisfaction. If a customer's expectations are met by a product they buy and they experience few if any troubles with the product they are more likely than not to unquestioningly repurchasing the same product. In your claim that Altium would demolish Eagle in short order, were it to launch a competing product to Eagle, I (we) would need some evidence that there a large amount of customer dissatisfaction with Eagle. Note I'm not saying Eagle is a good product or a bad product. What I am saying is from my perspective the customer perception of the Eagle Program is "it's good enough". This is why targeting Eagle for acquisition represents a strategy that is more likely to guarantee success. No doubts Altium targeting Novram is  a more elegant solution but buying out Eagle forces all of its users to consider Altium. A buy-out of Novram would not only necessitate a remodeling of Dip Trace it would require a costly marketing campaign. And even if that campaign is successful at peeling off most of Eagles users Eagle could still survive as a Niche Player.

[K6TR]

Which they would only be interested in doing if they wanted to remove DipTrave from the market place, perhaps by offering existing users a cheap crossgrade to Altium.

Just my 2c worth of course

Why would they want to do that Derek ? DIP Trace is an established product that is no threat to Altium Designer

As I mentioned to Dave. A take over of Novram by Altium is far more elegant than going after Eagle. Altium could retain the Dip Trace name as a Product Name developed for the Hobbyist/Experimenter/Start-up Business markets. Then offer Designer for the large scale Business/Developer.

Altium over the course of several iterations could modify Dip Trace to have its look, feel and functionality resemble Designer in a number of respects while still retaining its original signature. Dip Trace in its present form can export its files to Designer if needed so all that is left to be done is to make Dip Trace conform to the Designer ethos.  This would provide Altium with the opportunity to REALLY send the price of Designer through the roof. Something on the order of $20,000 to $25,000 for a Principle License for a 24 month term. And then offer satellite licenses that are renewed on a quarterly basis for 250 dollars a pop.

By keeping DIP Trace and Designer as separate products Altium could effectively insulate Designer from any negative effects in a number of respects and formulate pricing and marketing strategies that are tailored for each.

Buying up Novram is by far the more elegant solution for Altium. But that isn't the way business runs these days. It's "buy-up your competition, as much of it as you can, even if it means going into hock up to your eyeballs" !

Excuse my cynicism.

[EEVblog]

Dave what I call into question is to what degree a low cost version of Designer could displace Eagle.  And what expense Altium is prepared to go to achieve that end. There is little doubt in my mind a low cost version of Designer could demolish Eagle but not without a protracted fight that has the potential to be both costly and embarrassing for Altium.

Embarrassing?
Almost everything Altium have done in the last decade marketing and direction wise has been definition of embarrassing!
This isn't my wet dream of course, Altium have publicly stated very emphatically that their goal is to dominate the low end PCB market, and that Eagle is king of that hill. So they either go in with all guns blazing, or they don't do it at all. My fear (and why I did the video) is that Altium will most likely go in with a half-arsed effort that will be doomed to failure from the get-go.

In your claim that Altium would demolish Eagle in short order, were it to launch a competing product to Eagle, I (we) would need some evidence that there a large amount of customer dissatisfaction with Eagle.

Ok, try this:
To make a single sided PCB 161mm or bigger in any dimension in Eagle requires a license that costs US$1145.
So if you want the worlds simplest PCB with two leds on it that big, you have to pay the money. That is madness.
I would argue that is a requirement that almost every Eagle customer will eventually hit.
Right there Altium have a huge open door into the market.

Note I'm not saying Eagle is a good product or a bad product. What I am saying is from my perspective the customer perception of the Eagle Program is "it's good enough". This is why targeting Eagle for acquisition represents a strategy that is more likely to guarantee success. No doubts Altium targeting Novram is  a more elegant solution but buying out Eagle forces all of its users to consider Altium. A buy-out of Novram would not only necessitate a remodeling of Dip Trace it would require a costly marketing campaign. And even if that campaign is successful at peeling off most of Eagles users Eagle could still survive as a Niche Player.

Altium buy Novram would be a big mistake. It would just waste their already very limited resources and provide no upgrade path to their cash cow product.

[EEVblog]

As I mentioned to Dave. A take over of Novram by Altium is far more elegant than going after Eagle. Altium could retain the Dip Trace name as a Product Name developed for the Hobbyist/Experimenter/Start-up Business markets. Then offer Designer for the large scale Business/Developer.

No way. In the PCB (and CAD/EDA market in general) industry, tool familiarity is everything. Having a low end product that is totally different in look and operation to the product you ultimately want people to buy into, is a very bad move.
Why would you do that when you already have one of the worlds best EDA tools and beats Eagle is way shape and form, and you can prune down and restrict features or capability with very little effort. It's a complete no-brainer, just cut down Altium Designer and it's a win in every imaginable way.

Altium over the course of several iterations could modify Dip Trace to have its look, feel and functionality resemble Designer in a number of respects while still retaining its original signature.

The classic recipe for disaster.
Why would you send money to buy the company, get it's programmer up to speed, cross-pollenate your already thin design team for maybe years to bring that product up to scratch, when you can just cut a few lines of restriction code in your existing product?

By keeping DIP Trace and Designer as separate products Altium could effectively insulate Designer from any negative effects in a number of respects and formulate pricing and marketing strategies that are tailored for each.

I'll grant you that one. That would be the only realistic benefit I could think of.
But they could also get a similar effect by simply renaming their cut down Altium-Designer. Give it a few minor cosmetic differences, a different splash screem, and Bobs'ya'Uncle.

[koko79]

Apologies if this taking it off topic but Mentor just announced this low end tool with Digikey - http://www10.edacafe.com/nbc/articles/1/1280280/Mentor-Graphics-Digi-Key-Bring-Professional-EDA-Software-Engineering-Masses looks like it is $300 no idea on limits and whether it is Pads or Expedition GUI.

Oh Mentor also just bought Nimbic who I think Altium recently partnered with for some SI and PI Solutions.

[PlainName]

Gosh, that was looking good...

The web-based software is designed to give engineers real-time access to ...

Oh, perhaps not after all. That completely killed any interest I might've been working up to. Don't care if they supply it free and gratis either.

[mikeselectricstuff]

Apologies if this taking it off topic but Mentor just announced this low end tool with Digikey

Mentor Graphics Corporation the worldwide Printed Circuit Board (PCB) design solutions leader

Leader in what way exactly? Number of seats, revenue, number of board designed...? 

to create a unique concept-to-prototype design tool targeted for green-field projects before transition to production.

Why specifically mention prototyping, and "transition to" production ? What's missing then? Capabilty, licence restriction?

“We are pleased to be working with Digi-Key, their suppliers, and interested design service and PCB manufacturing suppliers to accelerate designs from concept to prototype

providing direct paths to quick-turn PCB layout and manufacturing services. The web-based software is designed to give engineers real-time access to the latest design components along with easy, error-free access to Design Service Providers and PCB Fabrication and Manufacturing Services. 

Who, what..?

My reading of this is that this is just schematic capture with an online parts library - nowhere does it mention PCB layout - I suspect "Design service Providers" means PCB layout people who have their expensive tools.

If it does include PCB layout, it will be tied to specific PCB suppliers using a non-standard format, like expressPCB
 
I'm getting a very strong "Nothing to see here" feeling about this.

[mikeselectricstuff]

More info on the Mentor/Digikey thing here http://www.digikey.com/techxchange/message/12421
Video mentions limits of 6 layers and 50 square inches (160x100mm Eurocard = 24.8 sq. inches)

[K6TR]

Almost everything Altium have done in the last decade marketing and direction wise has been definition of embarrassing!
This isn't my wet dream of course, Altium have publicly stated very emphatically that their goal is to dominate the low end PCB market, and that Eagle is king of that hill. So they either go in with all guns blazing, or they don't do it at all. My fear (and why I did the video) is that Altium will most likely go in with a half-arsed effort that will be doomed to failure from the get-go.

It looks like they are having a tough time getting that far Dave. I refer you to Reply 170 made by ludzinc where he states:

I tried to sign up for Altium's Beta Test program, specifically for their 'lite' version.

I had a chat with rep yesterday, who regretfully told me that a lite version is currently on hold and there is no immediate development planned.

This is not good news ! And for it to dribble out on a Message board raises some serious questions about where Altium is heading and what really are it's priorities ? The troubles between Martin and the Altium Bod came to a head in October 2012. But it appears they still don't have their act together 18 months later. As a matter of fact it was announced April 30th- May 1 that Altium was relocating its Executive Offices and core Engineer Staff back to San Diego. One article even poked fun at the development by titling the story "Nomadic Altium Tribe on the Move Again". The news reports of the move also state that it will take place in the 4th Quarter of 2014.


It was also announced yesterday that Jason Hingston was appointed Chief Technology Officer for Altium. Quoting from an ARN Article:

"Jason will be responsible for Altium's product development strategy and defining the company's product roadmaps,"

Dave between Altium's relocation and Hingston's appointment do you think we are even going to read or hear anything about a "Lite Version of Designer" before the first quarter of 2015 ? And if there is an announcement at that time when will we see a product ready for download ? Novram has not been sitting still. They will have version 2.4 of Dip Trace out in a month or two and on their website they have announced their pricing structure to upgrade to Version 3.XX when it is released.

Now put yourself in my shoes. I have been considering doing my own boards for the last 5 years. I have done my homework a have a lay-of-the-land of the players in the market and their offerings. As long as I have my friend to do up my boards it was no problem for me to put off the decision but the delays were getting annoying. Six months after your eevblog rant the situation is still as clear as mud with no end in sight. So at that point I decided to purchase my first Dip Trace License. I set the goal to have a minimal level of proficiency with the program and have my Dip Trace License Level up to the "Lite" level in 6 months. That will be some time in October. The further I get down the road the less likely I will migrate to another program. That time will be the last time I will readily consider moving over to a different platform. That should be at the point when the release of Dip Trace 3.XX is imminent. When that happens I will evaluate where Altium is with its low level package. If there are little more than rumors I will purchase Dip Trace 3.0 and upgrade from Lite to Standard. Once that happens it will take a Whale of a selling job to get me to move to another platform. If and when a Designer Lite program is announced I will down load it and evaluate what is there. I also have access to a cracked version of Designer so I will be able to see where the program is heading and then I can compare that with what I have with Dip Trace.

With the information  that has recently been released I would expect a RE-announcement of Designer Lite in the 1st Quarter of 2015. A product ready for download would follow in the 2nd Quarter of 2015. And like you said it would most likely be an amputated version of Designer with a new Splash Screen. More than that I would expect the Designer software that Altium decides to Operate on will not be a current version, like maybe a rev or two prior to what is in current release. Then we will see how much of Eagle's Customer Base they can peel off and how quickly they can do it.

DIP Trace is a different story. The longer Altium delays the worse it will get. And there isn't a large number of seats held by Dip Trace just yet. If Altium's cash reserves are low, as your previous comments seem to suggest, Altium will be forced to devote their resources to focusing on Eagle's license seats/users, after all that's where the numbers are. The first release may not result in Eagle hemorraging seats/users. It may take several revisions of tailoring Designer Lite to get the desired result. The question is will Altium have the fortitude to pursue this course of action when there isn't a hole lot of money to be gained from it ? That's why I refer to Altium buying out Eagle. Only a buy out guarantees the demise of Eagle. And Eagle has to be Altium's top priority if they want to dominate the low end PCB design tool market. They can play the Long Game and hope Designer Lite accomplishes this objective on its own but there are no guarantees it will be quick.

There are still too many variables that have yet to be answered to make any type of educated guess. I expect Altium will provide the information to fill in some of the holes at the end of the year.

[mrpackethead]

I was able to move to Altium for about $US4.5k,  as a "competitive" upgrade from eagle..    We had just outgrown in..  been a slow month learning, but we're now ahead of the game, and the time savings will start paying off shortly.

[DerekG]

I expect Altium will provide the information to fill in some of the holes at the end of the year.

I would not bet on it!

[Wilksey]

I hope Altium doesn't buy up Eagle and / or DipTrace, and I hope they don't release a "lite" version, it seems a bit pointless for a company like Altium to release a "lite" version, maybe a free viewer, but just because they have a "lite" version doesn't mean it will necessarily change the world (or way people think), if people have been using another package for a number of years then there is no real reason for them to change to something unknown to them.

Eagle and DipTrace have their own place in the market, like them or hate them, that's the real world, people like using them, E14 wouldn't sell Eagle I don't think anyway, not after what they paid for it, and it is arguably one of the most popular packages used today, which means a large percentage of the PCB  designer population have spent time learning how it works and it's quirks, the few that might change is those that use AD for work purposes but use Eagle/DT for hobbyist and want to standardise their designs to one package.

I think that peoples expectations are so high of Altium that if they did release a "lite" version then said people would only be disappointed that it lacked XYZ feature.

But as I state, just my thoughts.

[DerekG]

As a matter of fact it was announced April 30th- May 1 that Altium was relocating its Executive Offices and core Engineer Staff back to San Diego. One article even poked fun at the development by titling the story "Nomadic Altium Tribe on the Move Again".

The article mentioned can be found here:

http://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1322173

[mariush]

Maybe it's a bit off topic but anyway.

I checked out Zuken's website a couple of days ago after seeing here mentions of Zuken being very popular in Japan and that it's great and so on. 

They have a free version of Zuken Cadstar on their website, no time limits, no cut functionality, just a limit of 300 pins and 50 components (so basically like Diptrace only Diptrace free doesn't allow you to use the free version for commercial stuff, while with Zuken I didn't see such a note).

However, it's almost impossible to find prices without contacting distributors ... i found some European distributor on Google that was quoting Cadstar Lite+ (2000 pins, 4 or 6 layers) at 1900 euro + VAT.  That's... a lot.

Now I'm wondering if I should spend a few days playing with this Zuken Express, they have a nice pdf on the website with a few tutorial designs and they seem easy to follow, but I'm not sure if it's worth investing time to learn it when the higher pin versions of the software are so expensive (relatively, compared to Diptrace or Labcenter Proteus for example, which I'm tempted to check out in more detail - the proteus 3 with unlimited pins and layers is 1225 uk pounds and you can also upgrade from version to version like you can with Diptrace).

Can someone with Zuken experience chip in with their thoughts?

and somewhat on topic...  would you pay something like 500-1000 euro for a Zuken Cadstar with unlimited pins but restricted to 2-4 layers and maybe the Eagle board size limit ?

[DerekG]

but I'm not sure if it's worth investing time to learn it (Zuken) when the higher pin versions of the software are so expensive (relatively, compared to Diptrace or Labcenter Proteus for example, which I'm tempted to check out in more detail - the proteus 3 with unlimited pins and layers is 1225 uk pounds and you can also upgrade from version to version like you can with Diptrace).

I own DipTrace & Altium Designer 6.9 (& am using Altium 14 currently for work), but my favourite is Proteus (used it 18 months ago for an outside contract). Easy to learn (very intuitive), stable code, mature software & good value. Prices start for low end use at just US$248 and rise to US$2022 for the full blown unlimited version.

Proteus is much more powerful than DipTrace, however it does not have all the bells & whistles of Altium ........... but it does do about 92% of Altium & most/many engineers don't use the remaining 8% that Altium has to offer.

[c4757p]

Proteus looks good, but the "one plane per layer" restriction on the lower-priced versions is off-putting. I use multiple and split planes frequently in analog designs (not unusual for an amplifier of some sort to have e.g. 25, 15, 0, -15, -25 rails). That doesn't really strike me as an "advanced" feature...

[EEVblog]

It looks like they are having a tough time getting that far Dave.

Yes. From what I have now heard they had a beta version and it was out and few people were trying it. It was a seperate program to Altium Designer.
They seem to have either gone cold on the idea or had a big rethink in the direction.

It was also announced yesterday that Jason Hingston was appointed Chief Technology Officer for Altium. Quoting from an ARN Article:

"Jason will be responsible for Altium's product development strategy and defining the company's product roadmaps,"

Jason used to be my boss, he was the head of the PCB group for many years. One of the few remaining "old guard". Almost all of the main PCB coders are now gone. Excellent programmer, but was never cut out for people management. The only logical choice left for CTO I think, and it's a good choice. Jason is good technically, and has always been focused on core PCB stuff, good on him, he deserves it.

Dave between Altium's relocation and Hingston's appointment do you think we are even going to read or hear anything about a "Lite Version of Designer" before the first quarter of 2015 ? And if there is an announcement at that time when will we see a product ready for download ?

I have no idea. I thought the program release was imminent at the time which is why I rushed that video out.
Jason alone could personally strip out or limit features required for a lite version in a week, I'm sure. So if a lite version never comes out it means:
1) They have dropped the idea
2) They are doing something really stupid, like writing a whole new version. (Which is what I have heard the beta version kinda was)
3) They are stuck in marketing analysis paralysis.

Novram has not been sitting still. They will have version 2.4 of Dip Trace out in a month or two and on their website they have announced their pricing structure to upgrade to Version 3.XX when it is released.

With all due respect to Novram, what they do is rather irrelevant in the Altium/Eagle battle. They are not on Altium's or anyone else's radar I suspect.

Now put yourself in my shoes. I have been considering doing my own boards for the last 5 years.
I have done my homework a have a lay-of-the-land of the players in the market and their offerings. As long as I have my friend to do up my boards it was no problem for me to put off the decision but the delays were getting annoying.

You spent far too long procrastinating!
Really, it doesn't matter what one you pick, what matters is laying out boards. All will do the basic job.

Six months after your eevblog rant the situation is still as clear as mud with no end in sight. So at that point I decided to purchase my first Dip Trace License. I set the goal to have a minimal level of proficiency with the program and have my Dip Trace License Level up to the "Lite" level in 6 months. That will be some time in October. The further I get down the road the less likely I will migrate to another program.

That is very common, and is one of the main reasons why Altium didn't go out of business when they spent a decade doing little but pissing off their existing customer base in the wild search for a new customer base that didn't exist.
There was little competition in the Altium price bracket, and people and companies are reluctant to move tools.

That time will be the last time I will readily consider moving over to a different platform. That should be at the point when the release of Dip Trace 3.XX is imminent. When that happens I will evaluate where Altium is with its low level package. If there are little more than rumors I will purchase Dip Trace 3.0 and upgrade from Lite to Standard. Once that happens it will take a Whale of a selling job to get me to move to another platform.

Same with everyone else. Which is my Altium can't do a half arsed job of it, they have to offer massively compelling reasons to change.
Altium Designer has that capability to wow, it's just a matter of what they offer and for how much.

With the information  that has recently been released I would expect a RE-announcement of Designer Lite in the 1st Quarter of 2015. A product ready for download would follow in the 2nd Quarter of 2015. And like you said it would most likely be an amputated version of Designer with a new Splash Screen.

More than that I would expect the Designer software that Altium decides to Operate on will not be a current version, like maybe a rev or two prior to what is in current release.

No, hat would be a silly choice. No real advantage to it, and you only gain pain by having to manage two different rev programs.
Any smart company would just software license limit the features of the main package, then you only have to maintain and focus on one. In fact the "lite" version needed take ANY company resources at all, as I said in my video. No programmers, no marketing, no support, it's a freebie if you do it right.

It may take several revisions of tailoring Designer Lite to get the desired result. The question is will Altium have the fortitude to pursue this course of action when there isn't a hole lot of money to be gained from it ?

Altium won't be doing this for the money, because the money there is in it is pretty much chump change. Although if done right it is free chump change. As I said in my video, they would be doing this to brag about the number of seats they have, owning the whole market, and getting the vertical sales from people who step up.

That's why I refer to Altium buying out Eagle. Only a buy out guarantees the demise of Eagle.

It's pointless even contemplating that, Element 14 won't sell Eagle. It's not for sale.

[EEVblog]

Eagle and DipTrace have their own place in the market, like them or hate them, that's the real world, people like using them, E14 wouldn't sell Eagle I don't think anyway, not after what they paid for it, and it is arguably one of the most popular packages used today, which means a large percentage of the PCB  designer population have spent time learning how it works and it's quirks, the few that might change is those that use AD for work purposes but use Eagle/DT for hobbyist and want to standardise their designs to one package.

Remember, Eagle is NOT a cheap package. Because of the size limitations, to even do some basic stuff it the full package price of over $1100
There is a big window there for Altium to offer a compelling option.

[EEVblog]

and somewhat on topic...  would you pay something like 500-1000 euro for a Zuken Cadstar with unlimited pins but restricted to 2-4 layers and maybe the Eagle board size limit ?

I would never pay serious money for a size restricted program. That is one of Eagle's biggest problems IMO.

[EEVblog]

More info on the Mentor/Digikey thing here http://www.digikey.com/techxchange/message/12421
Video mentions limits of 6 layers and 50 square inches (160x100mm Eurocard = 24.8 sq. inches)

How stupid is it to release just the schematic, with the  PCB "introduced in the future." 

[Wilksey]

Quote from: Wilksey on Today at 08:35:25 PM
Eagle and DipTrace have their own place in the market, like them or hate them, that's the real world, people like using them, E14 wouldn't sell Eagle I don't think anyway, not after what they paid for it, and it is arguably one of the most popular packages used today, which means a large percentage of the PCB  designer population have spent time learning how it works and it's quirks, the few that might change is those that use AD for work purposes but use Eagle/DT for hobbyist and want to standardise their designs to one package.

Remember, Eagle is NOT a cheap package. Because of the size limitations, to even do some basic stuff it the full package price of over $1100
There is a big window there for Altium to offer a compelling option.

That may be so, but what if Altium release a size limitation version?
The main difference between DT and Eagle apart from the interface, which I know everybody LOVES! Is the fact that one limits size, and one limits pin count, I guess you Dave are all for pin count limitation rather than size?

What would be good is if CadSoft released Eagle in a lite mode but with the option to limit pin count OR limit board size, it wouldn't make the interface any better, but it would make it more desirable as a free package to people would it not?