Author Topic: Altium is killing off perpetual AD  (Read 32507 times)

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Offline asmi

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #150 on: November 08, 2024, 02:16:56 pm »
On which version of Altium ?
I have the latest version - I think 24.10.1.

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #151 on: November 08, 2024, 02:24:36 pm »
Is it still on active maintenance? If so, then you will have Multiboard. Once the maintenance lapses, you will not unless you back to v21 or v22 I think.
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #152 on: November 08, 2024, 02:58:21 pm »
Is it still on active maintenance? If so, then you will have Multiboard.
Yes I do have an active "standard" maintenance sub.

Once the maintenance lapses, you will not unless you back to v21 or v22 I think.
Where did you get this info? That makes no sense, as the premise of an maintenance sub is that whatever was the last version at the moment the sub lapses, is the version you are going to be stuck with. I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that you need an active update sub to have multi-board. As far as I know the only thing that requires active sub is their 365 cloud crap.

Offline ajb

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #153 on: November 08, 2024, 03:39:57 pm »
Where did you get this info? That makes no sense, as the premise of an maintenance sub is that whatever was the last version at the moment the sub lapses, is the version you are going to be stuck with. I didn't see it mentioned anywhere that you need an active update sub to have multi-board. As far as I know the only thing that requires active sub is their 365 cloud crap.

Their subscription page shows multiboard and several other features as needing a Pro subscription (screenshot attached).  They don't make it very clear how the subscription levels intersect with off-support perpetual licenses, but I can't imagine they're going to let you keep using a premium feature like that paying the rent for it. 
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #154 on: November 08, 2024, 04:01:56 pm »
Their subscription page shows multiboard and several other features as needing a Pro subscription (screenshot attached).  They don't make it very clear how the subscription levels intersect with off-support perpetual licenses, but I can't imagine they're going to let you keep using a premium feature like that paying the rent for it.
I don't have a Pro sub, yet I do have multiboard. So that page is clearly not correct. Or at least not entirely correct.

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #155 on: November 08, 2024, 04:36:27 pm »
There is lots about this on the Altium forum.
Basically, when they split Altium into the Standard/Pro and moved features into Pro it got messy.
If you have a perpetual licence with active Standard maintenance as v22.9, you have multiboard. Only if you kept the maintenance current, let it lapse and you would freeze at the current standard version, so no multi board. If you had a Pro maintenance subscription and stopped paying, you would keep the multiboard at the version you had when you stopped paying.
Now Altium has banned maintenance subscriptions, those on standard with the 'grandfathered' multiboard pro feature will have it removed.

If I can find the thread on the Altium forum about it I'll post a link.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #156 on: November 08, 2024, 05:12:49 pm »
There is lots about this on the Altium forum.
Basically, when they split Altium into the Standard/Pro and moved features into Pro it got messy.
If you have a perpetual licence with active Standard maintenance as v22.9, you have multiboard. Only if you kept the maintenance current, let it lapse and you would freeze at the current standard version, so no multi board. If you had a Pro maintenance subscription and stopped paying, you would keep the multiboard at the version you had when you stopped paying.
Now Altium has banned maintenance subscriptions, those on standard with the 'grandfathered' multiboard pro feature will have it removed.

If I can find the thread on the Altium forum about it I'll post a link.
Interesting. I would appreciate the link. Will also ask my rep about it next time around.

Offline SethGPI

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #157 on: November 08, 2024, 05:31:36 pm »
Interesting. I would appreciate the link. Will also ask my rep about it next time around.

Very bottom of Page 7, see Ted's response.
https://forum.live.altium.com/#/posts/258287?page=7

Quote
Anyone who purchased an Altium Designer license prior to version 22.9 under the Standard subscription level, are entitled to use multi-board capability in perpetuity when using that version, whether or not you have continuously been on subscription. If at some point later you dropped subscription, and later rejoined in order to get on a more up to date version of Altium Designer, you would still be entitled to use multi-board for version 22.8 or earlier, assuming that version actually included multi-board (for example, AD17 did not have it yet). You would NOT be entitled to use multi-board on 22.9 or later if off subscription unless you later upgraded your subscription to Pro or Enterprise.
 
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Offline asmi

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #158 on: November 08, 2024, 05:42:22 pm »
Very bottom of Page 7, see Ted's response.
https://forum.live.altium.com/#/posts/258287?page=7
Thanks for the link. I will discuss this with my rep at the next opportunity, as multi-board is becoming increasingly important for me.

Offline ajawamnet

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #159 on: November 10, 2024, 04:31:46 pm »
For one - Ted was lost on most of that.  We users on the forum pointed that out.   For two, if you have a perpetual and still can - get you .ALF standalone license.  That way, if you bag Altium totally you can always install a fully functioning seat in the future with NO interaction with Altium.   As to transfer rights to licensed software - see the Fenwick doc.  Fenwick was the IP law firm that did the first shrinkwrap EULA for Jobs and Wozniak back in the mid 70's.
https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Patent_Licensing.pdf

“Quiet Enjoyment
Licensees, having paid for the right to use licensed technology, generally seek to ensure that nothing interferes with the benefits they have received. For example, licensees are concerned with their ability to obtain assistance from the licensor in fixing defects that are discovered in the technology, to have the right to fix the defects themselves if the licensor is unable to do so, to obtain periodic upgrades and other maintenance services from the licensor, to transfer their rights if they sell their business and to continue enjoying the technology even if the licensor becomes bankrupt."

and:

"Licensor and Licensee Restrictions
While United States law generally leaves licensors and licensees unfettered in drafting
agreements as they see fit, the law does impose some limitations. These limitations
primarily prevent licensors from imposing terms in license agreements that are thought to be contrary to public policy. For example, antitrust laws prevent licensors from requiring licensees to purchase staple articles of commerce as a condition to obtaining a license to patented technology. The motivation for such restriction is to prevent the licensor from unduly expanding the market power conferred by the patent grant to effectively also control unattended goods. Similarly, the doctrine of patent misuse is applied in certain situations where a licensor imposes license fees that do not change as patents for the licensed technology expire.

Offline nctnico

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #160 on: November 10, 2024, 05:22:14 pm »
Copyright licensing has nothing to do with patent licensing.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #161 on: November 24, 2024, 02:18:47 pm »
Copyright licensing has nothing to do with patent licensing.
Despite the filename, that paper is not only about patent licensing. It’s actually quite an interesting read.
 

Offline ajawamnet

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #162 on: November 30, 2024, 07:04:41 pm »
No - that paper is about software licenses.  And Altium is like any other software company - those EULA's falls under copyright of the code.  Therefor that paper is indeed relevant to software.  And - this is the firm that did the first EULA shrinkwrap for Jobs and Wozniak back in the mid-70's.  So again, relevant. 

The Vernor case - with Judge Jone's initial ruling against Autodesk by way of First Sale is about software licensing - See:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vernor_v._Autodesk,_Inc.
For the mess the Ninth Circuit created citing Wise - see the end of this: http://lawrecord.com/files/38_Rutgers_L_Rec_213.pdf

where, it could then be construed that you could no longer sell used books, your CD collection, your VHS tapes, etc...   That's a scary thing.  That smells of monopolization.  And there's laws against that.  As stated in that Fenwick document.

It comes down to if I have intellectual property that relies on licensed technology to create and maintain, my IP would be worthless to my estate without the expressed consent of a licensor - who is now effectively forced me into a partnership.

Not cool man.  As Fenwick - I have the right to look at my software licenses as an asset.  Unlike CD's DVDs, vid games, VHS tapes, the license is not for a passive activity - it's actively being used to create my IP. 

It's a tool. It should be deemed as much.  That's why the Ninth Circuit pushed further clarification off on Congress:

"...  The court concludes by deferring any alternative holding and policy considerations to Congress."

The thing that makes me wonder about how Autodesk (as well as Adobe) viewed the whole mess with the Vernor thing - even tho the squeaked by - is that they both soon stopped selling licenses and instead now "rent" software.  It seems to me that initial ruling from Judge Jones (Quincy Jones' half-brother) scared them enough to change corporate direction.

This is what we now see with companies like Altium.

I mean look at it.  About the early 2000's software companies basically "blew their wad" (see https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/blow_one%27s_wad first definition for those with perverted minds) and gave you pretty much 95-99% of what you needed to automate and computerize your workflow - to replace typewriters, drafting boards, and light tables/Bishop Graphics.

I mean - look at this from a "Sourworks" dealer comparing SW 95 to 2012 -



You can do pretty much everything in 1995 that's in 2012. 

So now we have an industry that has lost it's value in the traditional sense.  There's no need to really upgrade.  And even with software companies that did go as far as creating patents - those have expired.  So as in the Fenwick document,

" The motivation for such restriction is to prevent the licensor from
unduly expanding the market power conferred by the patent grant to effectively also control
unattended goods. Similarly, the doctrine of patent misuse is applied in certain situations
where a licensor imposes license fees that do not change as patents for the licensed
technology expire."

So now what? 

They go for a subscription model.  A recurrent revenue stream.  One that - unlike us users that actually have to work and innovate for our business - they can just collect royalties. 

And in fact, if you read that Fenwick doc, you can see that was the gist of doing licenses in the first place - tax considerations.  Read the first part of that document. 

This was explained to me a leading law firm in Pittsburgh back in 1998 - well before the Fenwick document when my co-founder got accused of buying his ex-stripper wife breast augmentation on the company credit card after the initially clueless investors finally figured out how significant something like IoT would be - see this and link to my patent:  https://www.ajawamnet.com/amnet/

After that whole thing went down, I returned to Pittsburgh and the people I used to work for - the Sterns, that were one of the first movie theater chains (sold it Seagrams/Universal) introduced me to this law firm where the lawyer asked me why I don't just license the technology.  As I was leaving the lead attorney asked me, "Do you know why they license software?" and explained basically what Fenwick wrote in that document. 

So there you go.  This will be interesting to see how it plays out.  Look at it this way.  Major tech firm M&A's could be significantly hampered by unconscionable enforcement of the software they licensed by those software companies.  Look at Microsoft and they way their enterprise model works.  It gives an unfair competitive advantage to larger companies.  A clear violation of anti-trust laws. 

And those EULA's - even a judge was quoted as saying that might be considered a contract signed under duress. 

No man... It's you bought it you own it.  I didn't "rent" it, nor ask for a forced partnership.

I saw this coming... glad I got a standalone .ALF and offline installers. 








« Last Edit: November 30, 2024, 07:06:21 pm by ajawamnet »
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #163 on: November 30, 2024, 08:53:21 pm »
No - that paper is about software licenses.  And Altium is like any other software company - those EULA's falls under copyright of the code.  Therefor that paper is indeed relevant to software.  And - this is the firm that did the first EULA shrinkwrap for Jobs and Wozniak back in the mid-70's.  So again, relevant. 
I disagree. The paper you linked to is an introduction about various ways you can protect and license IP (intellectual property). However, IP is a very broad subject and that paper is nowhere near detailed enough to cover all the nitty gritty. So I'd be carefull about going selective shopping and quoting paragraphs which may seem to fit your narrative. Also, I don't care whether this firm created the first EULA. The lawyer who did that may be long gone and the paper may be written by an intern (note there is no author mentioned on the paper!). For legal advise, consult a specialist lawyer.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #164 on: December 04, 2024, 06:50:20 pm »
Checking today, I notice that Altium has expunged the Perpetual licence from the website. So it seems there is no way back, it's all in subscription only.

Anyone with a perpetual licence, who want's to keep up to date or use A365 - embrace paying double.
 

Offline rfindley

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #165 on: December 04, 2024, 11:52:15 pm »
@jc101,
My rep told me today that when you convert your perpetual license to a term-based license (TBL), your perpetual license will no longer be visible or accessible, but it is still in the system.  It will supposedly become visible again when your TBL ends, though I tend to be skeptical if I can't test it myself.

But I've opted not to renew, so I don't have to worry about it now.

As you said, the TBL offers less capability for 2x the cost, and *almost* no road back.  So, I'll do the same thing I did with Photoshop:  continue using the last version of Perpetual until it no longer works.  So far, Photoshop still works fine.
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #166 on: December 12, 2024, 11:15:22 am »
Just got an email (as a registered user of Circutstudio) offering an upgrade to "Altium Designer Individual License" for $999/year. Significantly, they say "Your pricing is locked in for life as long as you renew", so perhaps they are listening to some of the reasons people don't want subscriptions.
 

Offline 2N3055

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #167 on: December 12, 2024, 11:52:50 am »
Just got an email (as a registered user of Circutstudio) offering an upgrade to "Altium Designer Individual License" for $999/year. Significantly, they say "Your pricing is locked in for life as long as you renew", so perhaps they are listening to some of the reasons people don't want subscriptions.

Got it too.
They are listening my ass.

1000 USD a year as replacement for 600 USD once and 150 USD a year for subscription.
What kind of idiot thinks this is a good deal?
In 3 years you pay same as for 16 years of CircuitStudio subscription.
In 4 years you pay more that for 22 years for CircuitStudio subscription.

I bought Circuit Studio because I didn't need full blown Altium Designer.

And also, that "Locked for life"?
I don't trust that for a second.
Not coming from them.
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #168 on: December 12, 2024, 12:10:16 pm »
For pukka Altium, $1K/yr is the going rate isn't it? But by 'listening' I meant they've fixed the price forever - one of the issue with subscriptions is that you get sucked in with a low initial price and then it just keeps going up.

I agree that being suspicious of the price lock would be sensible, though :)
 
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Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #169 on: December 12, 2024, 12:16:30 pm »
That Individual Licence is a subscription model, you stop paying, you can't run the software. Just a cheaper Altium Standard term based subscription.

You may find more features move from Standard to Pro licences, which is what they did with Multiboard support. Personally, I've lost all trust in Altium, so once my current permanent licence maintenance expires I will freeze at that. If Altium want me to pay more than double what I do I year, that's fine - they have chosen to accept nothing rather than something.
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #170 on: December 12, 2024, 02:31:50 pm »
That Individual Licence is a subscription model, you stop paying, you can't run the software. Just a cheaper Altium Standard term based subscription.

You may find more features move from Standard to Pro licences, which is what they did with Multiboard support. Personally, I've lost all trust in Altium, so once my current permanent licence maintenance expires I will freeze at that. If Altium want me to pay more than double what I do I year, that's fine - they have chosen to accept nothing rather than something.
For me they offered last week a "free" update to pro terms based license for 2 years.
I told them I have a hard time justifying maintenance fees as it is, and if they increase it then we will stop paying and just use the perpetual license.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #171 on: December 12, 2024, 02:34:11 pm »
For pukka Altium, $1K/yr is the going rate isn't it? But by 'listening' I meant they've fixed the price forever - one of the issue with subscriptions is that you get sucked in with a low initial price and then it just keeps going up.

I agree that being suspicious of the price lock would be sensible, though :)

If it's for full "Standard Altium" then it's actually a great deal, list price for that on the UK site is £3960 / year.

If we didn't already have 2x perpetual licences I'd take $1k a year in a heartbeat.

I do agree with the skepticism on the "lifetime" lock, who's "lifetime"? Probably the Altium sales office pet goldfish.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #172 on: December 12, 2024, 03:26:26 pm »
Quote
I do agree with the skepticism on the "lifetime" lock, who's "lifetime"?

What's likely to happen is more tiered features which you only get if you upgrade your license. Stay on your current one and you effectively only get bug fixes (when they get around to them), so you fall further and further behind. If you're coming from Circuitstudio you should feel right at home :)
 

Offline Siwastaja

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #173 on: December 12, 2024, 05:38:09 pm »
I have been ignoring all Altium rep emails and they have tried to call me and do everything in their power to apparently give up the perpetual license. Finally I replied to them that we will keep enjoying the perpetual license, that Altium is a great piece of software, and perpetual licensing is Altium's strongest point against other "subscription only" competition. Radio silence after that, not even a courtesy reply  :-DD
 
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Online thm_w

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #174 on: December 12, 2024, 10:34:49 pm »
If it's for full "Standard Altium" then it's actually a great deal, list price for that on the UK site is £3960 / year.

If we didn't already have 2x perpetual licences I'd take $1k a year in a heartbeat.

List price is $2k/year for the individual license: https://www.altium.com/altium-designer/licensing/individual
You can't get two of them.
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