Author Topic: Altium is killing off perpetual AD  (Read 16515 times)

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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2024, 02:24:21 pm »
Not had the mail yet. 

I guess that means the entire current perpetual customer base, who have an active subscription, is looking at a 50% uplift annually compared to the maintenance subscription costs per year.

For those in the UK, could this be the Gerald Ratner moment for Altium, in terms of how to impress your user base?
I wonder if I still get emails for an elapsed license that I have to "buy the perpetual again" if I don't keep paying for the subscription now.
But yeah, it's ridiculous that they want for a software every year the same amount as it was for a perpetual license a decade ago.
 

Offline ajawamnet

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2024, 03:17:19 pm »
Term licenses limit the licensee's/user's ( in the case of something like Autodesk's rental policy) access to their intellectual property and forces one into a partnership of sorts that seems unconscionable.  It's so one sided. 

An interesting paper on this - "The Evolving Doctrine of Unconscionability in Modern Electronic Contracting"
 https://scholarship.shu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1675&context=student_scholarship

It's like the shiny shoes business guys are forcibly wedging themselves between users and their data.  That's not cool. 

As stated in this document: https://www.fenwick.com/FenwickDocuments/Patent_Licensing.pdf

by the law firm that did the first shrinkwrap software license for Jobs and Wozniak in 1975, on page 9:
"
“Quiet Enjoyment”
Licensees, having paid for the right to use licensed technology, generally seek to ensure that
nothing interferes with the benefits they have received. For example, licensees are concerned
with their ability to obtain assistance from the licensor in fixing defects that are discovered in
the technology, to have the right to fix the defects themselves if the licensor is unable to do
so, to obtain periodic upgrades and other maintenance services from the licensor, to transfer
their rights if they sell their business and to continue enjoying the technology even if the
licensor becomes bankrupt.
"


Note that under various sections of the USC, a licensor basically loses a lot of the rights to the licensed product.  For instance, in the sale of a record - which is interesting since the USC uses this analogy for computer software - Led Zeppelin can not prevent the sale of the original copies that is in the collection of an estate.  The law limits the licensor to protection fro pirating and that's about it. 

Licenses seemingly should fall under First Sale Doctrine.  https://www.justice.gov/archives/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1854-copyright-infringement-first-sale-doctrine

John Deere tried pulling that shit with limiting owners of their products the right to repair their equipment.  The "Right to Repair" -  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_repair

Note the mention of DRM...

Now, here's the difference that has yet to be tested in law.  That citing of DRM usually involves a passive activity.  Listening to Led Zeppelin.  Using a John Deere tractor.  OK...

But with software AS A TOOL - something that a licensee uses to create THEIR OWN Intellectual Property - this falls under seemingly different consideration.  The aforementioned having to maintain a relationship - in perpetuity - with a licensor so that a licensee can enjoy the fruits of their work... their IP. 

Recently, there are stories of the legality of Non-competes and certain rights a skilled employee has to practice their craft without being encumbered to a single entity that they currently work for.  You cannot enslave some one; ie. prevent them  - without compensation - from earning a living with their skills.  That's a violation of the 14th amendment. 

Of course there are limitations to prevent things like IP theft from the previous employer. 

OK...

So far we've covered what a license is and how it's typically limits the licensor.

But now think about this - as previously stated, all of this is a blatant attempt to build a business with a passive activity that denies the rights of access to a licensee's IP with a forced, construed partnership...

So what does that mean?

Now I'm sure all of you that have actually read a EULA - which is questionable in the first place since it's agreed to under duress, another issue that makes the agreement very one-sided.   In those EULA's the software licensor usually has a liability clause that states if you use their software to make a product that eventually - due to the licensee's ignorance/fault - cause harm or death, they are only liable for a paltry amount ($200 or similar).

This limitation of liability is usually reserved for things under the first sale doctrine.  A car company is not responsible for you getting drunk and killing a mother and her child.

So in a very one-sided way, they themselves are trying to invoke a first sale. 

But now - since you as a user have to maintain a relationship with them to access your IP - they kinda nullify that since they are acting as an implied partner.  Partners are typically liable for the actions of the partnership, including debts. Debts, such as lawsuits.

And as brought up to me during a conversation, if I do discover a safety issue and no longer maintain a relationship with the licensor, I can be prevented from rectifying that issue due to the lack of participation of the licensor.

So it comes down to a simple contractual obligation from both sides - You have your limited liability, I have my right to access my data in perpetuity.  Simple, two sided, fair solution.


Again, I'm guessing that post Vernor v. Autodesk, this was a consideration to restructure Autodesk into a "rental" scheme.

Now the problem of a rental scheme for the user of that rented software.  That user is now investing a lot of time and money utilizing that rental property - a very unique rental property unlike some retail lease where a company may invest a large sum of money to build out a leased property.  The uniqueness is due to the fact that the investment is now tied to a proprietary binary format - so a user can't easily take their IP/business model to any other "storefront" - it's stuck in that renter's format.   

It would be like investing $30,000 in some house you rent.  All that effort would be gone once the rental agreement ends - whether due to business reasons or the renter no longer offering the rented property.

Now one can argue that a renter can just export their IP/data in some third party format.  But again that would most probably entail a significant duplication of effort to get back to where they were.   

I for one, want "Quiet Enjoyment"  -  I want a guarantee that I can access my IP in perpetuity. I worked long and hard to develop that, spent considerable sums of money to obtain it, and I want to limit the risk of not being able to access it. 






« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 03:20:06 pm by ajawamnet »
 
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Offline ajb

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2024, 03:23:35 pm »
I see that their US site no longer offers perpetual subscriptions on the store page, only 1-3 year term license.  There's a measly $25 discount for paying annually vs monthly ($5495 vs $5520), and no discount at all for 3ys vs 1.  But if I go to the license management page, it looks like I can still add perpetual seats+sub for $9775+$3150.  Sure would be nice if they sent out some sort of email to EVERYONE with more than a few weeks notice if they really are killing off subs for existing perpetual licenses.  I would be tempted to renew one last time if that were the case, but I'm even less inclined to give them any more money if they can't give their customers that bare minimum of respect. 

  Or if you're okay with whatever version you're on currently, you can just stop paying for support and keep your perpetual licenses as they are going forward.
But what if they shut down the servers which deal with the perpetual roaming licenses which are out of subscription? If that gets shut down, a lot of companies can no longer transfer licenses from one PC to the other which makes it easy to share a license between workers and /or home and office PC. Worst, when the PC dies, the license may be gone with it.

That would be a big problem!  I suspect a lot of their customers would be calling up their lawyers if Altium effectively terminates a 'perpetual' license without providing a way to migrate to an offline license. 
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2024, 03:33:30 pm »
  Or if you're okay with whatever version you're on currently, you can just stop paying for support and keep your perpetual licenses as they are going forward.
But what if they shut down the servers which deal with the perpetual roaming licenses which are out of subscription? If that gets shut down, a lot of companies can no longer transfer licenses from one PC to the other which makes it easy to share a license between workers and /or home and office PC. Worst, when the PC dies, the license may be gone with it.

That would be a big problem!  I suspect a lot of their customers would be calling up their lawyers if Altium effectively terminates a 'perpetual' license without providing a way to migrate to an offline license.
Somebody posted a link which explains how to switch Altium to use an offsite license. So this should be a way out in case you want to continue using your current Altium version with a perpetual license.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 03:35:56 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2024, 03:35:42 pm »
I have moved (well, I was moved; I didn't ask for it) from a standalone license to an on-demand one a few years ago.  I asked about getting a standalone licence ability back again, and they said sure, give us £4,000, and we can make that happen for you.
 

Offline laseralex

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2024, 04:26:40 pm »
I guess that means the entire current perpetual customer base, who have an active subscription, is looking at a 50% uplift annually compared to the maintenance subscription costs per year.

Here in the states it's a 93% increase: from $2,195 to $4,235 per year.

I'm opting for a 100% decrease, from $2,195 per year to $0 per year.  My current version works fine.  If I ever really NEED something in the newer versions (unlikely) I can start a new TLL at that time.  But I doubt they'll release any features I can't live without in the next 5 years, and that means $22,000 of savings for me over that period.
 
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Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2024, 04:33:58 pm »
You're right; my maths is pants.

In the UK, it is almost double the price, too.

That's quite a chunk of the customer base who are going to be rabbits of negative euphoria.

I wonder if my current 3-year subscription renewal will be honoured, as they are shafting the entire customer base pretty effectively at the moment.
 

Offline laseralex

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2024, 04:45:53 pm »
I wonder if my current 3-year subscription renewal will be honoured, as they are shafting the entire customer base pretty effectively at the moment.

They have no legal option to NOT honour it.  They can't take away something you've already paid for.
 

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2024, 04:47:03 pm »
I wonder if my current 3-year subscription renewal will be honoured, as they are shafting the entire customer base pretty effectively at the moment.

They have no legal option to NOT honour it.  They can't take away something you've already paid for.
Well, I'm invoiced annually, I didn't pay up front.  So I guess there may be a clause in there somewhere...
 

Offline Spark-Doctor

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2024, 05:06:09 pm »
I got my email this morning and this is what they are offering me,

Quote
For the remainder of June we have 4 exclusive offers which I’m pleased to share with you today:
•   Perpetual Altium Designer license with 1 year subscription included (up to 35% off license, 10% off subscription)
•   Perpetual Altium Designer license with 3 years subscription included (up to 35% discount on license, 35% discount on subscription)
•   Time-based licenses for 12 months (up to 15% discount)
•   Time-based licenses for 36 months (up to 35% discount)

So i can buy a 3 year extension for my current Perpetual licence and they will offer support for those 3 years but only if i purchase in the next month. I am assuming they will want the full 3 year fee upfront.

It just seems a clever way to inflate their cash balance sheet.
 

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2024, 05:10:29 pm »
My 3-year subscription is invoiced annually; I'd not have bothered if I had to pay upfront.

With the current change, I will no longer be an Altium customer in 2026. I may as well keep going until then, but after that, it will be time to walk elsewhere.

I was going to start using the A365 for some stuff, but I may not bother now, as it's dead for me when the current maintenance sub expires at the end of 2026.
 

Offline laseralex

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2024, 05:49:54 pm »
I got my email this morning and this is what they are offering me,

Quote
For the remainder of June we have 4 exclusive offers which I’m pleased to share with you today:
•   Perpetual Altium Designer license with 1 year subscription included (up to 35% off license, 10% off subscription)
•   Perpetual Altium Designer license with 3 years subscription included (up to 35% discount on license, 35% discount on subscription)
•   Time-based licenses for 12 months (up to 15% discount)
•   Time-based licenses for 36 months (up to 35% discount)

So i can buy a 3 year extension for my current Perpetual licence and they will offer support for those 3 years but only if i purchase in the next month. I am assuming they will want the full 3 year fee upfront.

It just seems a clever way to inflate their cash balance sheet.

How odd that they are offering you a perpetual license with 3-year subscription when existing license holders aren't able to buy a 3-year subscription.
 

Offline laseralex

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2024, 05:53:48 pm »
With the current change, I will no longer be an Altium customer in 2026. I may as well keep going until then, but after that, it will be time to walk elsewhere.

I see no reason to stop using Altium.  I have 10+ years of designs in their format, and it does what I need it to.  I'd continue paying subscription if that was an option, because they do come out with neat stuff now and again.  But there is zero chance I'll switch to TLL - I can't risk losing access to my designs if Altium decides to quadruple the annual price.

I was going to start using the A365 for some stuff, but I may not bother now, as it's dead for me when the current maintenance sub expires at the end of 2026.

I'm SO glad I never did anything in A365.  I kept almost trying it, but I never saw a real advantage.  It's great that I don't have to now try to extract my files back to local.
 

Offline laseralex

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2024, 05:58:31 pm »
I just noticed something insidious in Altium's letter regarding the end of subscriptions for perpetual licenses.

My letter includes the following offer:

Quote
We are offering a special conversion package for you:
1. Cost-Effective Conversion: Convert to a Term-Based License at the cost of your current subscription, approximately 50% less than the current published annual price for Term-Based Licenses.
2. 3-Year Price Lock: Have the option to renew the Term-Based Licenses at the same price for two additional years. After this period ends, renewals will be at the current published price.

Switching to a term-based license for a few years already sounded like a bad deal to me: my fear was that they would change the file format to break backward compatibility, so if I switched over for the next few years (as long as pricing remained stable), I would then be unable to open any of my designs made in that period with my existing perpetual license. I could lose access to my next few years of designs!

Then I realized that it is likely much worse than that. The language in the letter says convert, which makes me believe that your perpetual license goes away and you have only the time-limited license which it has been converted into. So if you want to continue to have access to your designs, even ones made 10 years ago, you are forced into $4,500 annual payments (or whatever they decide to charge, since you can't say no.)

Big yikes!
 
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Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #39 on: June 06, 2024, 06:04:47 pm »
I could use some of the A365 stuff, just to make life a bit easier.  The bidirectional Mcad link to Fusion360 would save me a bit of time.

Indeed, I could keep at the level of my perpetual licence come 2026, but I'd have to go back to v22 or something as mine isn't a Pro perpetual licence—they would switch off things like MultiBoard on any newer version. I couldn't even open an old project, so I'm told.

The whole standrard/Pro introduction, licence changes, cost hikes, leave a real bitter taste.  At a recent event the Altium reps were keen to make the point they want to broaden the Altium user base.  It seems higher ups in the company are hell bent on a different strategy.
 

Offline ajawamnet

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #40 on: June 06, 2024, 07:54:43 pm »
Evil Software Companies.  Since I've been shadow banned on their forum, I made this.

Interesting comments from some of the users there about me being shadow banned...

 Any oldtimer will recognize it.


Offline tszaboo

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #41 on: June 06, 2024, 08:00:55 pm »
I wonder if my current 3-year subscription renewal will be honoured, as they are shafting the entire customer base pretty effectively at the moment.

They have no legal option to NOT honour it.  They can't take away something you've already paid for.
Coming to think of it, in the EU any court would rip a new one if they change the licensing like this.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2024, 10:10:48 am »
I wonder if my current 3-year subscription renewal will be honoured, as they are shafting the entire customer base pretty effectively at the moment.

They have no legal option to NOT honour it.  They can't take away something you've already paid for.
Coming to think of it, in the EU any court would rip a new one if they change the licensing like this.

Not necessarily. It would take an incentivised user to waste time and LOTS of money taking them to court to get anywhere. Much like patents, where it is entirely up to the patent holder alone to stump up and take on a multi-national that has megabucks to throw at minnows in order to discourage them. It would take at least another large company to do that, rather than you or me, and they would likely be happily on subscription anyway.

EU is only going to think about looking at this if they get lots of complaints, and then it will be years before anything happens, and then a one-off 'fine' of a few thousand Euros makes it all go away.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2024, 02:17:27 pm »
I emailed our account manager to ask what was going on, and received the attached.  Per this, new perpetual licenses will continue to be available, but subscriptions for perpetual licenses will not be sold after July 1.  So if you want updates, you have to convert to a term license (or buy a new term license) at twice the price of the old subscription or pay the full price for a new perpetual license every time you want to update. Existing perpetual licenses can have their subscriptions renewed for one more year before July 1.

Without a term license, you no longer have access to Altium 365, so if you've bought into that at all, get ready to pay up I guess.

Converting a perpetual license to TLL gets you up to three years at the current subscription price (so ~$2k/yr savings?), but without a perpetual license you're REALLY locked in for the long haul.  Seems a much better idea to add a new term license and keep the perpetual in reserve. 
 

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2024, 02:39:45 pm »
Thanks for that.

So, in summary, the cost of Altium is going up.  Substantially.  Nearly doubling.

So, what was a subscription of ~£2,600 a year becomes £4,930 a year, assuming the capital cost of the perpetual licence is not taken into account.  The bulk of Altium costs move to revenue budgets rather than capital.

Given only time-limited licences will have access to A365, you can see where the development is headed.  Not a roadmap that looks appealing I have to admit.

WOW,  :clap:

Some interesting discussions ahead in many companies when someone has to go and ask the boss to double the budget.
 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #45 on: June 07, 2024, 03:45:38 pm »
I am hoping I have the correct understanding that this is the last month they will offer subs for perpetual licenses. Thanks to jc101 I have negotiated a deal. I am just not actually sure if I want it or not. I definitely am not interested in turning my perpetual license into a TLT. 



 

Offline jc101

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #46 on: June 07, 2024, 03:56:41 pm »
If you can extend your subscription for a 3-year deal with a great discount, you're golden until 2027. After that, you still have the perpetual, so you can just carry on using it. Without anything A365, which is fair enough, it will cost you nothing to continue, and Altium will lose revenue.

Things may have changed again by then.

None of the new converting licences start until July 1, so grab what you can and squeeze in the best discount available. In the longer term, it's Altium's loss.

For me, it's the decision to embrace A365 and get stuck with needing it, or dip in as and when, and see what the picture is before my 3-year sub deal expires.

 

Offline trevwhite

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #47 on: June 07, 2024, 04:15:11 pm »
I got 3 year subs offered at 50% discount. So it's £1060+VAT per year.


Several months back I decided to check how useful Altium is when used with Git outside of Altium. The software obviously prefers you use 365 but Using Github Desktop I was able to use version control no issue with all my projects. I can commit from within Altium okay but it moaned about logging in to Github to push the commits so I would just open Github desktop and push from there but normal commits worked just fine.


Using this along with 3rd party library utils like Calestial and Altium Library loader I also found I could manage my library just fine. I think Altium is more geared towards bigger companies and likely those companies see a lot of value in the library structure. For single users it's maybe just overkill. When 365 merged libraries it completely confused me where footprints were and where the actual library was. Suddenly there were all these different methods of managing libraries.


So that brings me to wondering what features I am getting for the subs if I am not too fussed about their cloud services. It has been relatively stable for me in use.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #48 on: June 07, 2024, 04:28:44 pm »
If you can extend your subscription for a 3-year deal with a great discount, you're golden until 2027. After that, you still have the perpetual, so you can just carry on using it. Without anything A365, which is fair enough, it will cost you nothing to continue, and Altium will lose revenue.

According to the PDF I shared above, they are only allowing one final year of subscription for existing perpetual licenses. Presumably if you already have a contract for subscription through 2026 they will have to honor that.

If they’re offering anything that looks like a 3yr subscription renewal, I would make sure it’s VERY clear that your existing perpetual license isn’t getting converted before agreeing!

Quote
For me, it's the decision to embrace A365 and get stuck with needing it, or dip in as and when, and see what the picture is before my 3-year sub deal expires.

I sure wouldn’t want to become any more reliant on altium than we already are after all this. Major increases in cost for no additional to capabilities in the foreseeable future, and we’re only finding out three weeks ahead of these changes because we specifically asked? That’s not how a company that really cares about their customers acts. Given how hard they’re pushing to lock people into their ecosystem, I fully expect them to continue squeezing their customers for more money over the next few years.   Even if I wanted to stay on subscription, there's no way I'd want to give up a perpetual license, because eventually they'll squeeze too hard and I want to retain access to the years and years of work we've done without them extorting me for it.
 

Offline ajb

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Re: Altium is killing off perpetual AD
« Reply #49 on: June 07, 2024, 04:38:54 pm »
Several months back I decided to check how useful Altium is when used with Git outside of Altium. The software obviously prefers you use 365 but Using Github Desktop I was able to use version control no issue with all my projects. I can commit from within Altium okay but it moaned about logging in to Github to push the commits so I would just open Github desktop and push from there but normal commits worked just fine.

Yeah, things work just fine with external version control, and even the built-in comparison tool works (as well as it ever seemed to, anyway) with an external git client. 

Quote
So that brings me to wondering what features I am getting for the subs if I am not too fussed about their cloud services.

That's been the big question for a while now!  There are so many longstanding bugs and shiny new features that are half-finished (like draftsman and wire harnesses) that make the price hike and license changes extra insulting. 
 


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