Contact with Altium about a light/hobbyist version

[IanJ]

Hi all,

I fired off an email to Altium to ask about a version on a par with Eagle PCB's pricing/restrictions etc. After bouncing around the globe a bit here's their reply:-

Hi Ian
My Name is Lesley and I would be your Altium contact here in the UK, we are Altium’s largest reseller.
I do understand your point of view and while I appreciate your approval of the Altium Designer software, in my 11 years of issuing these licences, Altium has never considered a light/hobbiest version for release.  However, we are very supportive of the educational community and Premier EDA Solutions are very active in our support in the UK.
Altium does have an annual licence available complete with a Subscription and this would be £2995 but obviously at the end of the year this would terminate.
Please do not hesitate to contact me if I can be of further assistance and if you send me your complete details I can set up a record for you.

Ian.

[HLA-27b]

In other words

Please use the back door on your way out. I do not want the rich clients to see you.

[harnon]

I love the line - "we support the educational market in the uk with a package costing £3000 a year"...

Bwahahahaha. On my current student budget it would take me 6 years to save up for a one year license!   

[armandas]

I love the line - "we support the educational market in the uk with a package costing £3000 a year"...

Bwahahahaha. On my current student budget it would take me 6 years to save up for a one year license!   

Last time I checked, Altium cost £95/year for students. The real "issue" here is that there is no affordable option to those not in higher education.

[harnon]

I love the line - "we support the educational market in the uk with a package costing £3000 a year"...

Bwahahahaha. On my current student budget it would take me 6 years to save up for a one year license!   

Last time I checked, Altium cost £95/year for students. The real "issue" here is that there is no affordable option to those not in higher education.

Ah fair enough... I guess the email just made me think the two statements were linked   Even so, its instructive to type Altium Designer 10 into google and see what it auto-suggests... one of the top results starts with CR and ends with ACK.

Some other big software/CAD companies that you "may have heard of" (Autodesk, Dassault Systems and Microsoft to name three) now offer free versions of a lot their software to students.  In the past most students just found a pirated copy so I'm grateful to be able to do it legally!

[alm]

Even £95/y isn't that cheap for a student version in my opinion. Someone in a four year programme would pay close to £400, and lose access to it after graduation unless they spend the £3000 at that point. Compared to student licenses for most other software, this is actually quite steep. Most are a one time fee, and some remain valid after graduation.

Just because the retail version is 30 times more expensive doesn't make it cheap.

[armandas]

I didn't say it was cheap, just that it is reasonably affordable (compared to 3k), if you want to be legal. For everyone else, there are "free" versions available online.

[IanJ]

As an engineer I use AutoCad every day.
AutoCad Full = £4200 RRP
AutoCad LT = £1250 RRP
......and thats an outright cost, not some silly yearly sub.
PS. The LT version is very capable and for a lot of users they'd struggle to find any difference.

I can only figure that the top dog at Altium has delusions of grandeur.

Ian.

[EEVblog]

Classic Altium in that the only response you get is from the Reseller, and not Altium themselves.
You can't even get such a question answered inside the company, you get the death stare...

Dave.

[electrode]

They are entitled to their choice of not making more money. Lots of hobbyists will simply continue using Altium for free.

[IanJ]

Update:

Am being referred up the ladder a bit and possibly back to Altium themselves.

To be continued.........

Ian.

[EEVblog]

Am being referred up the ladder a bit and possibly back to Altium themselves.

That would be more response than I ever got, and I used to work there 

Dave.

[harnon]

Update:

Am being referred up the ladder a bit and possibly back to Altium themselves.

To be continued.........

Ian.

Perhaps we should start a distributed EEVBlog email campaign.  See if 1000 different emails asking the same question gets the point across!

[EEVblog]

I was THIS close to doing a rant video on it, like Dave's Top 5 tips for saving Altium, but alas, I have to be careful what I say here...

Dave.

[HLA-27b]

Perhaps we should start a distributed EEVBlog email campaign.  See if 1000 different emails asking the same question gets the point across!

If Altium doesn't want to bother with the community we might as well put the same effort towards open source programs instead. A few lines of code, a useful suggestion or maybe even a donation is all it takes and its not like they don't need any. If we all do this there will be no need to suck to altium for very long I guess.

[IanB]

If you look at the kind of capability a tool like GIMP has, there is no reason a free tool couldn't compete in functionality with something like AD. I suppose the reason it doesn't really exist is that the market (i.e. size of interested user community) is too small. It would be a very specialized application and unless someone were really keen and enthusiastic enough to take it on single handed it is unlikely to come to pass.

[alm]

If you look at the kind of capability a tool like GIMP has, there is no reason a free tool couldn't compete in functionality with something like AD. I suppose the reason it doesn't really exist is that the market (i.e. size of interested user community) is too small. It would be a very specialized application and unless someone were really keen and enthusiastic enough to take it on single handed it is unlikely to come to pass.

In my opinion GIMP is no match for Photoshop either (do they have real CMYK support yet? 16-bit per channel color?), although it may suffice for many hobbyist applications, and many people have complained about the UI. So the situation may not be that different from the Altium vs. Kicad/gEDA situation. Both offer most of the essential features for not too complex projects, both have some missing features and annoyances. Both are targeted at people who are usually not software developers. Of course GIMP has the advantage of a larger user base.

[ejeffrey]

The weird thing is, to me it seems that tools like PCB CAD is one of the few areas that I can see the hobby market being a non-negligible fraction of the market.  There is no way that hobbyists are going to be more than 0% of the market for components, PCBs, and that sort of thing.  One model of the iPod probably ships more silicon than the entire hobby market in a decade.

But the thing is, a garage engineer who turns out 2 prototype PCBs a year still needs a CAD program (also a multi-meter, a soldering iron, and so forth).  I don't think the number of electronics hobbyists is a negligible.  It isn't going to be huge, because those people can't afford the $$$ you charge large businesses, but it seems like it could be a non-negligible revenue stream.

I don't mean to imply there aren't downsides.  Maybe your support costs go up if you offer a discount version to hobbyists, maybe you lose some of your pro customers to the light version, maybe a lot of hobbyists are going to pirate your software even if it costs $100, and who knows maybe you are worried that your product won't be taken seriously by professionals if you market a light version.

Those are all legitimate concerns, and would be fairly compelling if the company in question were the market leader and living rich.  On the other hand, if you are a company struggling to find a niche with a shrinking market share and a faster shrinking market cap, dismissing potential customers as unworthy of even consideration is greek tragedy level hubris.

[EEVblog]

I don't mean to imply there aren't downsides.  Maybe your support costs go up if you offer a discount version to hobbyists

Nope, you just make a zero-support policy for the free version. It need not cost the company any extra time, money, or resources to maintain, except to spit out a new version occasionally.
Leave support up to the community forums.
This is why a free ad/or low cost version is an absolute no-brainer win-only decision for the likes of Altium. But they are too stupid, or maybe, too smart, clever and "forward thinking" to see it.

maybe you lose some of your pro customers to the light version, maybe a lot of hobbyists are going to pirate your software even if it costs $100, and who knows maybe you are worried that your product won't be taken seriously by professionals if you market a light version.

What's the difference between pirating a $100 version or a $10,000 version? In both cases you were never going to get any income anyway, so you haven't lost anything. At least with the affordable $100 version, you will get a lot of genuine converts who buy in. It won't be a huge amount of money, but it's money for jam - 100% profit. And the more people you have using the software, the more converts you'll ultimately get to the full package.

Those are all legitimate concerns, and would be fairly compelling if the company in question were the market leader and living rich.  On the other hand, if you are a company struggling to find a niche with a shrinking market share and a faster shrinking market cap, dismissing potential customers as unworthy of even consideration is greek tragedy level hubris.

Spot on.

Dave.

[george graves]

Am being referred up the ladder a bit and possibly back to Altium themselves.

That would be more response than I ever got, and I used to work there 

Dave.

Lol- too funny.

[EEVblog]

Lol- too funny.

Unfortunately, very true.
You learned very quickly that suggesting anything against the (current) company direction was a very bad idea indeed. Any such questions were met with deathly silence.
Like minded people at the company were forced into clandestine meetings in trench coats and groucho marx disguises in the basement carpark:
"Psst, hey, what do you think of this new Morfik crap?"
"Everyone's asking when we'll bring out a low cost tool, lets spread the word and start an internal revolt..."
"Shh, lookout, duck!"

Dave.

[IanJ]

Nope, you just make a zero-support policy for the free version.

I run my own email server (family use) running MDaemon which is arguably one of the top email server apps for Windows, an app that can support thousands of users.........and I have the 6 (six) user version!
Part of the purchase agreement for my low-user version is that I get very little support.

Suits everyone involved................Altium are you listening!

Ian.

[IanJ]

Hi all,

Got reply from Phil Mayo, MD of Premier EDA Solutions UK.

Long email, here's the jist:-

Quote:

The subject of a “lite version” rears it’s head frequently in the Altium-world and over the years many business cases have been put forward supporting the concept. The main problem is that fundamentally Altium Designer has been built from day one to break down the artificial barriers and constraints that our founder, Nick Martin, believes surround electronics design. This belief was valid in the ‘80s when we had workstation-based CAD and is still valid today where many software vendors offer limited functionality as a “hook” to upsell additional software to their customers.

It is clear that the hobbyist “market” is ideal for a cut down version but in today’s complex global electronics industry, one man’s hobbyist is another’s consultant and it is inevitable that there would be cross-pollenisation between the market sectors.

To add further spice to the debate, Altium Designer today is more than just an electronics design system. The main thrust of the development is to unify electronics design processes with the other processes involved in the creation of modern products. Things like supply chain, release control, version management and such like are not usually found in the hobbyist domain. It’s not as simple as adding some component/pin/layer limits to schematic and/or PCB. So, personally, I would question the “fit” of Atium Designer conceptually with this market."

So, I tried!..........sorry folks!..........I guess I'm back to Eagle PCB.

Ian.

[HLA-27b]

... it is inevitable that there would be cross-pollenisation between the market sectors...

Like a whiff from devil's toilet.

[olsenn]

I honestly don't see what's so great about Altium, but as far as their policies go; suicide or not;  is withen their rights to make. If they don't want the hassle of dealing with students/hobbyists, then they can continue selling their software for thousands of dollars. Any project simple and small enough to be done by a single person, little on a student, can probably be done just as well with Eagle or DipTrace etc. If it can't... download it illegally.

[DrGeoff]

They should have released Protel99SE to the hobby market. It is perfectly adequate for schematics and PCB's.
I would never let an organisation like Altium dictate or control the other processes in the product development stage. Delusions of grandeur!

[IanB]

The main thrust of the development is to unify electronics design processes with the other processes involved in the creation of modern products. Things like supply chain, release control, version management and such like...

This kind of thinking comes up a lot. What tends to happen is that actual customer enthusiasm for all these extra features is low and take up is weak. And then the product managers think to themselves, "Oh, we must not have done those other features well enough, we must invest more money in them." And eventually the core features of the product get starved of development, and the customers get unhappy.

What customers really want is a product that does exactly what they want (e.g. electronic design), and does it superbly well. They don't want all these peripheral features and frills and embellishments added on around the outside. If they want a supply chain management solution they will pick a vendor who specializes in supply chain management and likewise does that particular thing superbly well (a vendor, by the way, who does not happen to think they can also dabble in electronic design and be successful).

The reality is that product managers do not embark on such grandiose plans because it's what customers want or need, they embark on those plans so they can justify charging more for it and increase revenues. However, what my happen instead is that a little fish may come along with a much greater focus on the core domain and eat their lunch.

When you look at what customers actually want, it is integration. They want each of their superbly good applications in each domain to work together and share data and allow a complete end to end solution to be built where each piece of the solution is as good as it can be.

(And you would separate the integration features into well defined modules so that to deliver a single user hobbyist version you just have to unbundle the integration options.)

[EEVblog]

The subject of a “lite version” rears it’s head frequently in the Altium-world and over the years many business cases have been put forward supporting the concept. The main problem is that fundamentally Altium Designer has been built from day one to break down the artificial barriers and constraints that our founder, Nick Martin, believes surround electronics design.

Typical Altium spin. Phil has to say that in order to keep his job.
What Nick believes is irrelevant, it's only what the customers and industry demand that matters, and that is why Atlium is going down the toilet.
What happened to the hundreds of millions of dollars in public investment in the company that bought all that FPGA and embedded vision?
It got pissed away, that's what, and it now it's all but worthless. The company is now worth less than what Element 14 paid for the "hobbyist" Eagle package.
I'd call that failed vision...
You'd think that would be a wake-up call, but no, the solution is more vision!

In the real world, having vision is one thing, but being in a position to actually pull it off is an entirely different ball game.
The only reason Altium has survived all this vision madness is because of the core PCB/SCH customers. Altium know this, but they choose to take them for granted.

This belief was valid in the ‘80s when we had workstation-based CAD and is still valid today where many software vendors offer limited functionality as a “hook” to upsell additional software to their customers.

Err, yeah, what part of that is a problem? It's called giving customer want they want - choice.
So Altium are so generous at doing this huh? Well, how about the 95%+ of customers who don't want or need their FPGA solution, their vault stuff, or the Morfik cloud rubbish? They are currently forced to pay for all that just to get basic PCB layout functionality so you can do a PCB with a flashing LED on it.
If only 5% of the customers wanted basic PCB/SCH then I can understand, but that's not the case, it's the opposite. Altium shove their vision of what electronics design should be down everyone's throat whether they like it or not. They do not live in the real world.

It is clear that the hobbyist “market” is ideal for a cut down version but in today’s complex global electronics industry, one man’s hobbyist is another’s consultant and it is inevitable that there would be cross-pollenisation between the market sectors.

To add further spice to the debate, Altium Designer today is more than just an electronics design system. The main thrust of the development is to unify electronics design processes with the other processes involved in the creation of modern products. Things like supply chain, release control, version management and such like are not usually found in the hobbyist domain. It’s not as simple as adding some component/pin/layer limits to schematic and/or PCB. So, personally, I would question the “fit” of Atium Designer conceptually with this market."[/i]

Then you have no idea about the real market.
Altium is an excellent core PCB/SCH tool, and can be usedas such. So much so that 95% of customers do just that, and ignore the rest of the stuff, which is nowhere near a complete solution anyway, and never will be.

Dave.

[DrGeoff]

The subject of a “lite version” rears it’s head frequently in the Altium-world and over the years many business cases have been put forward supporting the concept. The main problem is that fundamentally Altium Designer has been built from day one to break down the artificial barriers and constraints that our founder, Nick Martin, believes surround electronics design. This belief was valid in the ‘80s when we had workstation-based CAD and is still valid today where many software vendors offer limited functionality as a “hook” to upsell additional software to their customers.

It is clear that the hobbyist “market” is ideal for a cut down version but in today’s complex global electronics industry, one man’s hobbyist is another’s consultant and it is inevitable that there would be cross-pollenisation between the market sectors.

As we have long suspected. Incompetent executives and marketing.
'Cross-pollenisation' of market sectors is exactly how many successful organisations end up with large market share. The hobbyist becomes the tertiary student and then becomes the graduate engineer and eventually senior engineer or management. Carrying an EDA toolkit with them throughout this journey is exactly what the marketing people should be aiming for.

[EEVblog]

They should have released Protel99SE to the hobby market. It is perfectly adequate for schematics and PCB's.

No, that would have been suicide, because 99SE would be good enough for probably 90% of Altium's customer base.
Altium's revenue would dry up over night if they did that.
The best way is a low cost/free limited version of the current latest tool and then sensible tiered pricing structures.

I would never let an organisation like Altium dictate or control the other processes in the product development stage. Delusions of grandeur!

That's why no one buys into any of Altum's solution, they just use the product to design PCB's.

Dave.

[EEVblog]

As we have long suspected. Incompetent executives and marketing.
'Cross-pollenisation' of market sectors is exactly how many successful organisations end up with large market share. The hobbyist becomes the tertiary student and then becomes the graduate engineer and eventually senior engineer or management. Carrying an EDA toolkit with them throughout this journey is exactly what the marketing people should be aiming for.

And that's exactly how Altium was built, on the backs of the low cost/hobby/small business/student market...
Now it's "eat everything" or starve.

Dave.

[DrGeoff]

They should have released Protel99SE to the hobby market. It is perfectly adequate for schematics and PCB's.

No, that would have been suicide, because 99SE would be good enough for probably 90% of Altium's customer base.

That's the point. They would have 90% of the market with a sensibly priced version of a product they already produce.

Altium's revenue would dry up over night if they did that.
The best way is a low cost/free limited version of the current latest tool and then sensible tiered pricing structures.

Not if they actively supported and enhanced the existing product in a direction that customers wanted and released upgrade versions. There are lots of software companies doing very well with this, with packages far more complex than this.

[IanJ]

Hi all,

I've been having a bit of a dialog with Phil, he's keen to see more folks visit the Altium forums and voice their opinions there.......not sure I'll bother with that but one thing I tried to get across to Phil (in the hope it makes it over to Altium) was an example by comparison.

Take Mdaemon by altn.com, which is a hugely popular and one of the best email server apps for windows. It's been around since 1996 and routinely competes with Microsoft Exchange as the server app of choice with small/medium sized organizations.
The 1000 user edition costs $2230.00 and thats without some of the security add-ons, additional functionality add-ons etc which can easily quadruple (and more!) the price.............so it's out of reach for small companies & individuals?..................WRONG!
They also do a six (6) user edition at $380 and so I don't need to tell anyone what this does to make the app available & affordable to small companies and individuals.
Net result.........I run Mdeamon at home where the six user edition is ideal.

Ian.

[DrGeoff]

That's a strange example. Most people setting up a mail server do it for free using qmail and dovecot, without limitations.

'Lite' packages can present a problem to the software designers in that they now have to support another product, whose codebase can be different from the full package. Then at release time they have to decide which features to leave out and whether it will impact some other part of the software by doing so. I know of one company that dropped the 'lite' product altogether and halved the price of its full version instead.

[EEVblog]

I've been having a bit of a dialog with Phil, he's keen to see more folks visit the Altium forums and voice their opinions there.......

Yes, I'd encourage that (as shitty as their forum is ). I know for a fact that the powers-that-be read and actively monitor their forums.
I'd contribute again, but I've been banned 
This is one of many current threads on it:
http://forum.live.altium.com/#posts/189230

Dave.

[firewalker]

Yes, I'd encourage that (as shitty as their forum is ). I know for a fact that the powers-that-be read and actively monitor their forums.
I'd contribute again, but I've been banned 
This is one of many current threads on it:
http://forum.live.altium.com/#posts/189230

Dave.

It says...

Invitation Only
You've found the right place. Altium Live is where you'll find information about almost every part of Altium—from industry news and trends to interesting customer stories to our unique culture - and, of course, our software and design content.

Alexander.

[mstevens]

Hi all,

I've been having a bit of a dialog with Phil, he's keen to see more folks visit the Altium forums and voice their opinions there.......not sure I'll bother with that but one thing I tried to get across to Phil (in the hope it makes it over to Altium) was an example by comparison.

Ian.

Hmmm... I've had a license since Protel 99/99se; my subscription expired about 6 months ago.  I don't plan to renew. 

I personally would not voice my opinion in an Altium Forum since I own a couple of licenses.  From my recollection, Altium is quite hostile toward "negative" criticism; and since they determine what is "negative", I would not even consider putting my thoughts in their forum.  Perhaps they are having a change in their paridigm now that they seem to be close to being defunct.

My perception is that Altium does not value "me" as a customer.  I am unsure why everyone in anxious to get an Altium license(this coming from someone who has one); for a lot of people, myself include there are much cheaper alternatives.

Melvin

[EEVblog]

It says...

Invitation Only
You've found the right place. Altium Live is where you'll find information about almost every part of Altium—from industry news and trends to interesting customer stories to our unique culture - and, of course, our software and design content.

Yep, another idiotic Altium decision, if writing your own forum software from scratch wasn't stupid enough, they don't want their forum google indexed, or available to just the general riff-raff. You can apply for trial Altium Live access which lets you play on the forum.

Dave.

[electrode]

Dave, I get the impression that you're not the slightest bit worried about burning bridges.

[EEVblog]

Dave, I get the impression that you're not the slightest bit worried about burning bridges.

I don't burn bridges, but nor do I suck arse or stay silent about things I'm passionate about. If those who my comments are aimed at interpret that as burning bridges, so be it, their problem, not mine.
Altium didn't like my outspoken-ism when I was there, and they don't like it now, so no difference 
I speak my mind on this because I've been a passionate Protel/Altium user for over 20 years, and I don't want to see them and the tool go down the toilet.
Ironically, part of the reason I was hired was to give my professional industry opinion on things. Turns out that meant, only if it agrees with their vision 
I still like the company, the tool, and the people still left there. I like Nick, he's a nice guy, and he's smart, just a shame their vision is a complete and utter failure and they cannot see it, but the rest of the industry clearly can.
I'm not saying anything different to countless other customers, or many other employees for that matter.
Part of their problem is that people still buy the software, and they think that somehow that validates their vision. However, the polls and the community viewpoints clearly say otherwise.
It's like an intervention on a family member or friend, you do it because you care.

Dave.

[PeteInTexas]

That's a strange example. Most people setting up a mail server do it for free using qmail and dovecot, without limitations.

'Lite' packages can present a problem to the software designers in that they now have to support another product, whose codebase can be different from the full package. Then at release time they have to decide which features to leave out and whether it will impact some other part of the software by doing so. I know of one company that dropped the 'lite' product altogether and halved the price of its full version instead.

How about releasing as "Lite" something that was two or three major versions back?  No "serious" customer willing to pay good money will settle for that but it may satisfy the hobbyist just fine.  So no "cross pollination" there.  They don't really need to support it because its probably EOL'ed.  No codebase issues because its just an earlier version.  Makes sense to me unless one is more worried about "company image" considerations.

[electrode]

Selling outdated versions cheaply is a poor way to add a lite version. Not only are you missing out on features (probably don't care), but you're years behind in bug fixes (big deal).

For paid software, the lite version should just be a reduced feature set - any bug fixes should be applied in parallel to the full kit, and be released free. That's the standard model of most software.

Realistically, Altium have 2 versions of their software:
1. Commercial: $5000/exorbitant rental
2. Hobbyist/Student: $0 (pirated)

Offering something reasonable (2-4 layer, 500 pin?) for $100-200 is a good way to make a buttload of cash from people using option #2 and/or EAGLE/KiCAD/gEDA/Diptrace. As Dave said though, it won't happen anytime soon.

[PeteInTexas]

Selling outdated versions cheaply is a poor way to add a lite version. Not only are you missing out on features (probably don't care), but you're years behind in bug fixes (big deal).

By definition, lite versions are compromises- a trade off between features/quality and price.  Nothing is free.

[EEVblog]

How about releasing as "Lite" something that was two or three major versions back?  No "serious" customer willing to pay good money will settle for that but it may satisfy the hobbyist just fine.  So no "cross pollination" there.  They don't really need to support it because its probably EOL'ed.  No codebase issues because its just an earlier version.  Makes sense to me unless one is more worried about "company image" considerations.

The problem with that is that even 10 year old PCB software will do what 99% of people want, hobbyist or professionals.
So you can't just release something like 99SE as freeware, it would ruin your current business (albeit awesome for the market).
You need to release your current offering just stripped of some features, so the users get a taste for your current offerings and have the incentive to upgrade as their needs grow. Hobbyists become well-heeled hobbyists or turn their hobby into a business, students become professionals, one-man-bands get bigger and better etc.
The trick is knowing how to limit it.
You have to give them the good stuff to get them hooked, things like 3D viewing and supplier integration for example.
Stuff like automated productivity enhancement are prime candidate to leave out, so autorouting, signal integrity, and some of the more advanced intelligent manual routing stuff for example.
Pin size and board size limit can be crippling, and oyu have to be very careful there. Eagle is a classic example of how to completely goof the size limits.

For the record, my advice to Altium is thus:
1) A completely free version. No restriction on how it's used, commercial or otherwise. No support, forum only. 2 layer limitation, 4 would set you apart from some others though. Maybe one schematic sheet limit (or two, to give them sniff of what harnesses are about). Maybe a size limitation, based on total area (if possible) rather than a fixed size. If you want to get radical, no size limit. PCB and schematic only, with full 3D and library support, and that vault rubbish included. No embedded or FPGA support. No autorouter. No signal integrity. No panelisation stuff.
Just enough to allow hobbyists, hacker, makers, and midnight engineers to get started and produce something useful they can sell.
If you want your vault/cloud stuff to take off, you have to allow this group to use and contribute, they are the most passionate.

2) A low cost paid version, pick your price. $100 up to maybe $500. Paypal online buying only, no sales droids, forum only support.
4 layer restriction with no size limits, and more schematic sheets (say 10?). Plus you get panelisation and any other production level stuff. Otherwise similar limitations as #1 No need for embedded, autorouter, signal integrity, no simulation, or advanced productivity tools like FPGA pin swapping. But I'd give them the interactive autorouter stuff.
Just enough for the same crowd as #1, but they can produce more advanced boards for production.

3) Your current "all you can eat" offering with the subscription service and full phone/apps engineer support etc.

All of them get current updates and bug fixes, to give them all a sniff of how wonderful your subscription service is.

Dave.

[PeteInTexas]

How about releasing as "Lite" something that was two or three major versions back?  No "serious" customer willing to pay good money will settle for that but it may satisfy the hobbyist just fine.  So no "cross pollination" there.  They don't really need to support it because its probably EOL'ed.  No codebase issues because its just an earlier version.  Makes sense to me unless one is more worried about "company image" considerations.

The problem with that is that even 10 year old PCB software will do what 99% of people want, hobbyist or professionals.
So you can't just release something like 99SE as freeware, it would ruin your current business (albeit awesome for the market).
You need to release your current offering just stripped of some features, so the users get a taste for your current offerings and have the incentive to upgrade as their needs grow. Hobbyists become well-heeled hobbyists or turn their hobby into a business, students become professionals, one-man-bands get bigger and better etc.
The trick is knowing how to limit it.
You have to give them the good stuff to get them hooked, things like 3D viewing and supplier integration for example.
Stuff like automated productivity enhancement are prime candidate to leave out, so autorouting, signal integrity, and some of the more advanced intelligent manual routing stuff for example.
Pin size and board size limit can be crippling, and oyu have to be very careful there. Eagle is a classic example of how to completely goof the size limits.

For the record, my advice to Altium is thus:
1) A completely free version. No restriction on how it's used, commercial or otherwise. No support, forum only. 2 layer limitation, 4 would set you apart from some others though. Maybe one schematic sheet limit (or two, to give them sniff of what harnesses are about). Maybe a size limitation, based on total area (if possible) rather than a fixed size. If you want to get radical, no size limit. PCB and schematic only, with full 3D and library support, and that vault rubbish included. No embedded or FPGA support. No autorouter. No signal integrity. No panelisation stuff.
Just enough to allow hobbyists, hacker, makers, and midnight engineers to get started and produce something useful they can sell.
If you want your vault/cloud stuff to take off, you have to allow this group to use and contribute, they are the most passionate.

2) A low cost paid version, pick your price. $100 up to maybe $500. Paypal online buying only, no sales droids, forum only support.
4 layer restriction with no size limits, and more schematic sheets (say 10?). Plus you get panelisation and any other production level stuff. Otherwise similar limitations as #1 No need for embedded, autorouter, signal integrity, no simulation, or advanced productivity tools like FPGA pin swapping. But I'd give them the interactive autorouter stuff.
Just enough for the same crowd as #1, but they can produce more advanced boards for production.

3) Your current "all you can eat" offering with the subscription service and full phone/apps engineer support etc.

All of them get current updates and bug fixes, to give them all a sniff of how wonderful your subscription service is.

Dave.

Gee, Dave, I get the impression this has caused you some sleepless nights. 

[PeteInTexas]

How about releasing as "Lite" something that was two or three major versions back?  No "serious" customer willing to pay good money will settle for that but it may satisfy the hobbyist just fine.  So no "cross pollination" there.  They don't really need to support it because its probably EOL'ed.  No codebase issues because its just an earlier version.  Makes sense to me unless one is more worried about "company image" considerations.

The problem with that is that even 10 year old PCB software will do what 99% of people want, hobbyist or professionals.
So you can't just release something like 99SE as freeware,

I've never had the privilege of using Altium.  Is it really that good?  Are you really saying for most people doing most things a ten year old version is just as good as the current release?  Ten years is a long time in software.  What about footprints and such?  A lot common smd devices did not exist ten years ago.  That's got to be a serious limitation for professionals.  And I did not mean freeware outright.  Something like under 50USD.

[EEVblog]

I've never had the privilege of using Altium.  Is it really that good?

Yes, and any professional level 10 year old PCB design software is just as capable.
In fact, 99SE was still massively dominate (particularly in China) up until only several years.
There are many organisations still using 99SE to this day.
It is not uncommon for Altium to get requests to still sell and support the old software.

Are you really saying for most people doing most things a ten year old version is just as good as the current release?

Yes, really.
The ultimate goal of PCB design software is to lay out your board and produce gerbers files. Nothing more, nothing less.
Every other feature is simply designed to improve your productivity and streamline the design process.
But if you need too, everything can be done easily in 10 year old, and even 20 year old or more software.
Can you still use a 1990's vintage paint program?, or version of Word or Excel? of course you can. Same with CAD.
As long as a PCB program supports the number of layers you want, and some other basic manufacturing stuff, it's just as suitable now as it was 10-20 years ago. And indeed, that is the #1 problem for sales people in CAD companies, trying to convince existing users that they really do need to upgrade their still working 5-10 year old program.
Indeed, if I wanted to, I could still design a modern leading edge PCB with Altium's 20 years old free MS-DOS based Protel Autotrax software.
It wouldn't be as nice as using the new software, but I could still do it is needed.
99SE is still an incredibly powerful tool, and widely used worldwide, and if they would offer it for free, there would be countless PCB professionals who would use it and not need anything more.

Ten years is a long time in software.  What about footprints and such?  A lot common smd devices did not exist ten years ago.  That's got to be a serious limitation for professionals.

Nope, that means essentially nothing in the professional industry. The majority of professional PCB designers and companies using these tools do not use the PCB footprints provided by the CAD companies. They make their own footprint to meet their own standards and unique manufacturing and other in-house checking and verification requirements etc.
Making a new component footprint borders on trivial.

Dave.

[mikeselectricstuff]

In terms of PCB technology, about the only thing that has changed in the last 10 years or so is more users needing support for creating matched-length traces, impedance control and differential pair routing. Maybe also having enough resolution for microvias and thinner tracks on very high density boards. For  run-of-the-mill PCBs, nothing has really changed since SMD became commonplace and needed the ability to create stencil and pick&place data.

The biggest potential issue with old PCB tools is compatibility with current operating systems, and possibly not being able to use the full size of large screens, and even then there are usually ways to work around this.

[hans]

The impression I have after using Altium 09 for 1,5 years is:

1) It contains plenty of bugs that will crash it.
2) Ambitious small companies (5-10 people total) also use it..
3) The focus on  embedding all those extra blocks is ridicilious.
I haven't been using FPGA's (yet! currently graduating at a company which uses an actual legal version of mentor graphics and does imaging stuff.. going to Mentor it this week and see how it goes), yet it is in there.
I still program my PIC micro's with a dedicated programming environment (MPLAB X), no need for embedded stuff.
Maybe for something like a NIOS proccesor,  but I see that can work straight out eclipse as well..
4) The standard libraries are very large, but typically kinda old (what is their last revision in the 09 software? 2006 to 2008 or something?)
Moreover, most companies I've seen or done interns at make their own libraries with an own commisioning system so they know which components, footprints and symbols are PASSED or FAILED.

The price for their software for a typical company is something I would consider 'not bad'. If I had to compare how eagle (which is extremely popular) works, it's horrible. The controls of the program are 1990s (whats initiuive about a move, group, copy, paste function with a their own dedicated button?), there is no properly structurized library system (like I can have a global footprints library and a global symbol libraries and link them separately) , the layer system is a mess, the info inside the PCB editor is nothing saying (no markers on pin numbers, nets, etc.).
People call Eagle 'reasonably' priced, but I wouldn't call a CAD software that charges you well over 575 dollar as a company 'well priced' if it can't make a board larger than 160mm wide.  Heck, I made a race dashboard last autumn with some 7-segment displays and LED drivers on it that was 180mm by 60mm. I'd have to pay the double price? (well over 1100$) Pfft.

For me personally I am just staying with Altium because I don't know any other software package that would do better for a reasonable price. Too bad Altium isn't interested in the niche market of hobbyist and start-ups. But I guess Dave is right that Altium would shoot themselves in the foot (or knee, but you need a bow for that  ) , because most people only wire up a SMPS or something, micro, some sensors/actuators and their PCB is done..

[EEVblog]

3) The focus on  embedding all those extra blocks is ridicilious.

Bingo, Atium's #1 problem, but they are the only ones who can't see that.

The price for their software for a typical company is something I would consider 'not bad'. If I had to compare how eagle (which is extremely popular) works, it's horrible. The controls of the program are 1990s (whats initiuive about a move, group, copy, paste function with a their own dedicated button?), there is no properly structurized library system (like I can have a global footprints library and a global symbol libraries and link them separately) , the layer system is a mess, the info inside the PCB editor is nothing saying (no markers on pin numbers, nets, etc.).
People call Eagle 'reasonably' priced, but I wouldn't call a CAD software that charges you well over 575 dollar as a company 'well priced' if it can't make a board larger than 160mm wide.  Heck, I made a race dashboard last autumn with some 7-segment displays and LED drivers on it that was 180mm by 60mm. I'd have to pay the double price? (well over 1100$) Pfft.

Yep, their size/price levels are ridiculous. When challenged on it, they rattle off some distorted customer figures, just like Altium only rattle off quotes from the 1% of customers who actually use their embedded/cloud stuff.

For me personally I am just staying with Altium because I don't know any other software package that would do better for a reasonable price.

And that is the only thing keeping Altium afloat. If there was another comparable PCB/SCH tool in the same price/performance bracket, their market would vanish overnight.

Dave.

[gregariz]

For me personally I am just staying with Altium because I don't know any other software package that would do better for a reasonable price.

My experience has been that the larger companies tend to use either Pads, Orcad or Altium.

But I think there a number of lower cost packages that are pretty good, although maybe without all the bells and whistles. I never really liked the Eagle UI, but the price was right so its understandable why it became popular. I used it for a while after I dumped altium in the late 90's. I also quite like the UI in the Proteus package but each to their own.

[T4P]

Apart from Eagle's old UI , i couldn't understand how to use it at first ( of course , there went the program )
But then i started to understand it ...
Altium ? Better not say anything lest ...

[Galenbo]

Hobbyists become well-heeled hobbyists or turn their hobby into a business, students become professionals, one-man-bands get bigger and better etc.

MBA courses say otherwise. Companies are built around great Vision and ideas, and started up with a multi 1 million dollar Bank loan. If things don't work as expected, you just need more Vision.

Just enough to allow hobbyists, hacker, makers, and midnight engineers to get started and produce something useful they can sell.
If you want your vault/cloud stuff to take off, you have to allow this group to use and contribute, they are the most passionate.

They are passionate, but unable to micro-manage. So they simply don't exist.
And they surely don't spend millions stupidly for a crap product.


I'm somehow dissapointed in your contibutions on this topic. (and other Altium topics)
Even when I think you're right on everything (I don't know anything about Altium)
I am a fan of your Video's and Site because of your "Crap that, but let's do this" approach.
Ignoring Bullshit, and at the same time passionate about other things.

Let them sleep in, do whatever, ignore them and buy them when they're only worth 10 dollar.
And then make a video about it :-)