Free Altium is Coming

[timb]

Thank you Rigby (et al). Finally another voice of reason.


Sent from my Smartphone

[Rufus]

So who gives a rats ass if Arduino production is dwarfed by microchip?

Anyone interested in the relative size of the market for design tools provided by those than mostly use Arduinos and those that don't.

So drop the crap about upverter.  For him it works.  For you, it might not.  Why the hell does anyone care if upverter is used?  Why are any of you even bringing it up, like its a sign of failure?

Because it is very similar to what Altium are proposing for CM and will target the same type of customer. Who it does and doesn't work for is very relevant to this thread.

[zapta]

Because it is very similar to what Altium are proposing for CM and will target the same type of customer. Who it does and doesn't work for is very relevant to this thread.

Anybody cares to comment about the differences between CM and Upverter?  Also, does Upverter use an install app or brwoser based similar to Digiky?

Personally I like the github model of one versioned repository to all my project files, hardware, software, docs, drivers, etc. My only exception is the BOM, I edit in Google docs spreadsheet and export the github as a PDF (yack).

[Rigby]

Browser-based.  HTML5.

Go try it.  It isn't bad.

[zapta]

Browser-based.  HTML5.

Go try it.  It isn't bad.

I just tried it. It looks nice, very responsive and had a footprint for the arbitrary chip I looked up (LPC11u35/33). Didn't do a deep test of the functionality. Like every EDA package it requires getting used to, for example, scrolling changes the zoom rather panning and for panning you need to click on that hand icon (tedious).

Several places in this thread people compared CM to google docs but upverter fits better that model no software installation and OS agnostic. I wish it would also export files in useable formats as google docs does.

[Rigby]

It supports exporting.  There are keybindings, too, so you don't have to click the icons to select the desired tool.

[alimirjamali]

Chris Gammell just posted a detailed Simple Plane Experiment (KiCad vs CircuitMaker vs Upverter) article on contextual electronics.

BTW, now that the wolf (or better to say the bird) is awaken, what do you guess about EAGLE reaction to CM? Farnell did not invest €12 million in Cadsoft in 2009 to let it go easily (or did thay?).

1. Will they turn EAGLE to some online collaborative tool? The same way Altium did?
2. Will they just seat on their chairs and watch?
3. Or they will try to kill the dragon (CM) in the egg before fully hatched? By unlocking EAGLE limitations and aiming to cash out, selling parts from their popular EDA?

[Rigby]

No way to know.  It's all guessing.

[Rigby]

By the way I SERIOUSLY doubt that any immediate changes will be seen in Eagle.  Dominant market share arrogance will prevent Cadsoft/Element14/Newark from viewing CircuitMaker as a threat for a long while after it becomes one, if it does become one.

Your question makes it appear like you are a journalist. 

[alimirjamali]

No way to know.  It's all guessing.

Contraindication

I SERIOUSLY doubt that any immediate changes will be seen in Eagle.

BTW, there are currently 9 guests on this page. Is there any possibility that any of them are from Altium? If Altium ever cared about Dave's rants, they might be stalking on this forum? I have seen many companies to monitor 3rd party forums to protect their assets or get market feedback.

[zapta]

... Is there any possibility that any of them are from Altium? If Altium ever cared about Dave's rants, they might be stalking on this forum?

Of course they do, but they are not allowed to respond here.

[IanJ]

By the way I SERIOUSLY doubt that any immediate changes will be seen in Eagle.  Dominant market share arrogance will prevent Cadsoft/Element14/Newark from viewing CircuitMaker as a threat for a long while after it becomes one, if it does become one.

Your question makes it appear like you are a journalist.

As an Eagle user (paid) I had posted on their forums early on making them aware of this thread and what Altium was up to.....and urging them to stride forward with their product rather than the wee tweaks we have seen over the past couple of years and that if Altium get it right then IMO the OSH community could make a shift.............
The reply from them was that they weren't waiting for version 8 to do so..................although I don't think the Cadsoft guy I did dialogue with knew anything about anything really.

I did my bit.

Ian.

[Kjelt]

I also doubt that Eagle will change significantly which does not have to be bad.
If you look at Altium with the zillions of options/boxes and possibilities that might be a 10+ year experienced board designers wet dream it is the starting hobbieist worst nightmare. All they want is to produce a decent board with one or two days learning effort and best in just a weekend time.
Eagle fullfills that just by watching the 10 part youtube instruction videos that are out there, and you have your board ready.
Sure if you want/need fancy 3D imaging, RF analysis and 40 layer designs it is not suitable but than you are playing in the big leagues and that is not their target audience.

So basically you guys are twisting the story thus far.
Why should Eagle have to change to a pro version that can not win from Altium, when Altium obviously feels threatened by Eagle and now starts to make a second version targeting their audience?
It probably will fail since reading the last few pages they have terrible management that has no idea about where and how they should earn money in the future, and only knows about re-organizations and moving HQ between countries  .

[george graves]

Anyone (besides Chris Gamble?) get a beta version of the software yet?  Or can those people not say(NDA)?

[ehughes]

I don't not believe that he actually has a copy to to compare. This was a "virtual" comparison.

[ehughes]

As an Eagle user (paid) I had posted on their forums early on making them aware of this thread and what Altium was up to.....and urging them to stride forward with their product rather than the wee tweaks we have seen over the past couple of years and that if Altium get it right then IMO the OSH community could make a shift.............
The reply from them was that they weren't waiting for version 8 to do so..................although I don't think the Cadsoft guy I did dialogue with knew anything about anything really.

I used EAGLE for a couple years (version 4 days) (I really miss the simplicity of the ULPs).     It took them *years* to add simple features such as user part parameters.  People had been asking for hierarchical design and that took about 10!   EAGLE's model is to move at the speed of a glacier.   Not saying that is bad,  just an observation.      If it involves them changing the price, it could be quick.   As far as changing anything about usability of the program,  I would be surprised to see them do anything.   

That being said, if Altium were to die in a fiery crash tomorrow (very unlikely) I would go back to EAGLE.   The great part about it would be that nothing would have changed!

Now, Altium is on the complete end of the spectrum (which can be frustrating) but some of the features they have pushed have been industry 1sts that everyone else simply copied. For example, the rigid-flex capabilities in AD14.

It is my hope that Circuitmaker will help push others to improve.  While not everyone will like all the design decisions,  it does add to a landscape where there is some clear choice between offering and the low end.

[Wilksey]

I think Chris saw CM at Maker Faire.

I don't think Eagle is at threat because of some cloud based crap offering from Altium.

CM is aimed at people who want to build simple things and don't care if they get shared, no business in their right mind would use it, everything that CM can do Eagle can do in one way or another, the only difference being if you want to upgrade Eagle is still Eagle, CM is, well, not Altium.

[Rufus]

As an Eagle user (paid) I had posted on their forums early on making them aware of this thread and what Altium was up to.....and urging them to stride forward with their product.

Most of the moaning about CM in this thread is about it not being a financial threat to Eagle, diptrace etc. Upverter should be worried, no one else really.

[Rigby]

Any EDA tool vendor who wants to keep their current customers should be paying close attention to CircuitMaker, KiCAD, and all of their other competitors.

A vendor that doesn't pay attention to its competitors is taking its customers for granted and deserves every bad thing that happens to them.

[timb]

I tried Eagle once when I was starting out. What a hodgepodge of a confusing fucking mess that UI is. I couldn't figure out how to even do basic things. About two years ago I picked it up again and it was literally the same broken design.

People in this thread complaining about the Ribbon, yet saying Eagle is good software? Wow.

I was more used to CAD software, so I guess that's what I was expecting. DipTrace fills my role for EDA software nicely. So that's what I'll be comparing this against.


Sent from my Smartphone

[Rigby]

Like most software that's been around a while, inertia keeps bad UI design around a lot longer than is reasonable.

This is a small part of the smart move on Altium's part with CircuitMaker.  They can completely scrap the existing Altium Designer UI and be free of the interface baggage that AD carries with it.  They can test new ideas and solicit feedback and quickly incorporate changes. The massive user base of AD make that kind of thing impossible on that application.

Thinking about that, it makes a lot more sense to me now if there won't be a clean upgrade path from CM to AD.  They won't be aimed at the same people whatsoever.  Why provide a path for a customer to move from a program they like and are productive with into a completely different application?  It would make no sense to do so, since CM and AD are targeted at completely different, non-intersecting sectors of the market.

The more I think about CM the more I like it.

Can't wait to try it.

[zapta]

... The more I think about CM the more I like it.

Let me remind you a quote by a younger Rigby

"Maybe it'll be awesome. Maybe it'll be a catalyst that kick starts some better development in kicad or eagle or your favorite tool.  Who knows?  Until we get our hands on it we are all just talking out of our asses."

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/195/

;-)

[Rigby]

OK good point. 

I should clarify: based on my imagination, CM seems pretty nice.

[Batang]

Does anyone know what the deal will be in regards to library files?

I assume CM will be able to have user created library files and will these files also be cloud stored?

And if you can open existing Lib files will the changes to be cloud stored?

In the latter case I would not be too thrilled by that.

Cheers.

[Rigby]

The library sharing is a big deal with this, apparently, so they'll be shared and awesome.  Dunno.  There is documentation on this somewhere though.