Free Altium is Coming

[timb]

Yeah running in VMWare is not running on OS X. I give the DipTrace guys a pass for putting out a Wine Bottled OS X app, at least I don't have to *start an entirely different fucking operating system* just to work on a board. Plus the next version is going to be native now that they're on the new Delphi compiler.

Remember, Macs are huge in schools, colleges and with the Maker crowd, not to mention software guys. Having a native Mac version also gives you access to the iPad market which is enormous. Imagine being able to seemlessly switch from working on a board at your Mac to your iPad on the train. For things like drawing a schematic or even routing a board, a touch interface could be amazing if done right.

PC only software designers are like people still building carriages when the Model-T had been out for years.


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[Iliya]

any windows program can run under vmware/parallels.

I would not call that running on Mac OSX . Its not a native OSX application with OSX integration.

The question was:
Does it run on Mac OSX?
The answer is yes.

Not:
Is it available as a native  Mac OSX application.
The answer is no and probably never will be.

I did a port to both Linux and Mac (native on both) written in C++/QT several years ago. I had a G5 PowerPC MAC. Then Jobs decided that he no longer hated Intel so bye bye PowerPC . So My G5 went straight to eBAY and that was the end of it.
There is no money in Linux. Linux on the desk top is dead!  Apples: well, Is their heart really in selling desktops?

The reality is Windows rules. Of course there are many Windows haters out there who will no doubt respond to this.

[Iliya]

Yeah running in VMWare is not running on OS X. I give the DipTrace guys a pass for putting out a Wine Bottled OS X app, at least I don't have to *start an entirely different fucking operating system* just to work on a board. Plus the next version is going to be native now that they're on the new Delphi compiler.

Remember, Macs are huge in schools, colleges and with the Maker crowd, not to mention software guys. Having a native Mac version also gives you access to the iPad market which is enormous. Imagine being able to seemlessly switch from working on a board at your Mac to your iPad on the train. For things like drawing a schematic or even routing a board, a touch interface could be amazing if done right.

PC only software designers are like people still building carriages when the Model-T had been out for years.


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PCB design on an iPad 

[zapta]

any windows program can run under vmware/parallels.

I would not call that running on Mac OSX . Its not a native OSX application with OSX integration.

If a single install make it run on a stock Mac OSX that it's probably OK for me but if I need to buy/install other prerequisite software I will pass.

For a cad software to succeed in the makers/hobby market it needs to 1) have a free version and 2) run on all major OS's, otherwise it's not a good choice for open source projects. Circuit Maker passes the first test (kind of, with major cloud limitations) but not the second. AutoTrax passes nither.  For me it's still eagle until Kicad will release Mac OSX binaries.

[Iliya]

I could make a free version of AutoTRAX available for non-commercial purposes. However I would have to make it without any other limits.  Any thought?

Nothing I can do about the MAC native code. 

P.S. I am working on a new shape base router for AutoTRAX. I have 2 versions, one in C#, .NET and the other in Visual Studio C##/11 with QT 5. Amazingly the C# version is 2% faster. 
It makes re-porting to QT/C++/11 not as attractive. Over the years I have written over 1 million line of C++ and over 500K lines of C# so I am efficient at both.
I don't use Pascal (e.g. Delphi )

[zapta]

I could make a free version of AutoTRAX available for non-commercial purposes. However I would have to make it without any other limits.  Any thought?

I think it will open many doors for open source projects.

Nothing I can do about the MAC native code. 

Can you pack it as a single install that includes the prerequisites?  IIRC this is what diptrace do for Mac OSX (others may have more details).

P.S. I am working on a new shape base router for AutoTRAX. I have 2 versions, one in C#, .NET and the other in Visual Studio C##/11 with QT 5. Amazingly the C# version is 2% faster. 
It makes re-porting to QT/C++/11 not as attractive. Over the years I have written over 1 million line of C++ and over 500K lines of C# so I am efficient at both.
I don't use Pascal (e.g. Delphi )

I am very impressed with what you have done. I spent a few years working on automatic routers so I can appreciate it and your product seems to be very comprehensive. Chapeau.

BTW, have you considered Java instead of C#? It is more portable.

[timb]

Java would be dog slow.

If you've written it in .NET you could maybe compile for OS X/Linux/BSD with Mono.

If you port to QT/C++ it *will* run on OS X/Linux/BSD.

Giving up 2% speed for a 40% larger install base seems logical to me. Especially since the Mac/Linux crowd loves software written by one man teams with love and care.


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[zapta]

Java would be dog slow.

If you've written it in .NET you could maybe compile for OS X/Linux/BSD with Mono.

Doesn't seem  that slow according to this arbitrary comparison page.

http://reverseblade.blogspot.com/2009/02/c-versus-c-versus-java-performance.html

Even Javascript is fast these days. Try to running tinkercad.com in Chrome. It's very impressive.

[Iliya]

C++/11 is a vast improvement over C++/98

AutoTRAX EDA, the version before DEX was written in pre standard C++, Visual Studio 6 and MFC. MFC really sucked in comparison to QT. I like QT as the API is written for humans.

I have never taken to Java. It's always been there but never had a convincing enough pull.
I like C# as it is very expressive. I use DevExpress for the GUI, it makes a beautiful design but is dead slow on startup. QT comes up instantly.

Active3D is written in QT/C++/11. I could compile it to run on Linux or MAC.
http://kov.com/Download/Active3D

See demo video http://kov.com/Videos/3D?play=g_RAoJ9-Rp0
It currently runs only on 64 bit and OpenGL 4. It can be a bit touching as on some machine the QT will not start up. I don't know why but it looks like a platform file is needed.
Could do a 32 bit version but until the 64 bit runs for everyone it will have to wait.

Perhaps I could crowd source development of a QT version and also make the source code open source!
Would be possible to run with an open source control system to share PCB designs/schematics/parts as well so users could use their own design server. No need for a Altium cloud service.

All my file formats are open (XML) By default they are compressed. (ZIP with small compression marker). DEX also optionally encrypt the files compressed or plain.
File format is at:

http://kov.com/DexXmlSchemaManual/

P.S. I do AutoTRAX because I love it!
Many years go I worked for Apricot Computer in Birmingham, England and wrote 90% of their test software for their manufacturing. I went down onto the manufacturing flow and saw about 100 machines all running the test software. It's great to see one's programs being used.
http://www.old-computers.com/MUSEUM/computer.asp?c=499

[Rigby]

Java would be dog slow.

Not so much, these days.  In fact, Java hasn't been really slow since Java 1.3, and that was a good while ago.

I'm assuming you're speaking of run speed, and not boot speed.  C# has the MS blessing of effectively precompiling every .net EXE and DLL in the background from bytecode into machine code and caching the machine code with a windows service, so it FEELS faster when you launch a C# app vs. a Java app.  Java doesn't do this and accordingly it takes more time for a Java app to start.  Unless Oracle want to design and implement a service to do this on major platforms, Java will never have great startup speed.

Performance after startup is done.. that's really good.  Like, really good.

[Iliya]

The AutoTRAX installer compiles and optimizes all its .NET DLLs during installation.  The optimization is for 32/64 processor type as well as processor model so there is no JIT compiling during startup.
You will see this as you install AutoTRAX.


See http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/6t9t5wcf%28v=vs.110%29.aspx

[janengelbrecht]

Make the full version free without caveat. Those who want to support it can and will. Those who cannot afford will do so latet add their business grows. Those who are just hobbies shouldn't have to pay and those who are psychopathic were always going to pirate it anyway.

They could in fact make a hobby license and a pro one. Same specs but limitations in such a way that you are not allowed to use the hobby version for professional jobs. (A lot of chineese people wouldnt care - but again they used the cracked versions anyhow )

[timb]

Java would be dog slow.

Not so much, these days.  In fact, Java hasn't been really slow since Java 1.3, and that was a good while ago.

I'm assuming you're speaking of run speed, and not boot speed.  C# has the MS blessing of effectively precompiling every .net EXE and DLL in the background from bytecode into machine code and caching the machine code with a windows service, so it FEELS faster when you launch a C# app vs. a Java app.  Java doesn't do this and accordingly it takes more time for a Java app to start.  Unless Oracle want to design and implement a service to do this on major platforms, Java will never have great startup speed.

Performance after startup is done.. that's really good.  Like, really good.

I think Java's days as a consumer software platform are coming to an end. Hell, Apple used to include a JRE with OS X, then they moved to making it downloadable from Software Update as an optional due to the size. All this time they took care of including each new JRE update via Software Update, but it got to the point where there were so many "Critical Updates" coming down the pipe due to major security flaws they just said fuck it and stopped supporting Java altogether.

Keep in mind, Apple was handling the building and testing of Java on OS X *for* Oracle. At one point in the early days (OS X 10.0 through 10.3 IIRC) you could write native Cocoa applications in Java! (!). Apple had considered it as the de-facto language for the platform moving forward, but Sun was too slow implementing some agreed upon changes and that was that. Apple went all in on Objective-C and later started writing their own toolchain when they got frustrated with the GCC project. This all happened in a 2 year span from 2003 to 2005 or so.

Hence LLVM, CLANG et al. were born.

There's even a Java front end for LLVM in the works. Annnd now we've come full circle. =D

Anyway, didn't Windows even used to include Java support through a Microsoft specific implementation of the JRE or something? I know that's been gone for awhile.

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[Rigby]

Java will always have a place, I think.  You're right that its place as a consumer, end-user required install is fading.  C# has so many excellent language features that, everything else being equal, it makes no sense to write Java apps for the desktop.

[zapta]

Java will always have a place, I think.  You're right that its place as a consumer, end-user required install is fading.  C# has so many excellent language features that, everything else being equal, it makes no sense to write Java apps for the desktop.

Does C# run on Linux and OSX?

Go lang is supposed to have simpler deployment than java, it's still on my to do list to check how real is it.

In my hobby projects, multi os support is a must.

[Rigby]

You missed the recent news about. Net.

[miguelvp]

You missed the recent news about. Net.

How can anyone miss that?
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/20/one-week-of-open-source.aspx

Maybe is because they announced also free Visual Studio 2013 community up to 5 seats for small companies/individuals or small groups, and you can actually sell the code you produce provided you are within $1 million revenue or something like that.

Edit: post with more details about VS 2013 community
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/visual-studio-community-2013-a-full-featured-ide-free/msg550822/#msg550822

[zapta]

You missed the recent news about. Net.

How can anyone miss that?
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/20/one-week-of-open-source.aspx

Maybe is because they announced also free Visual Studio 2013 community up to 5 seats for small companies/individuals or small groups, and you can actually sell the code you produce provided you are within $1 million revenue or something like that.

Edit: post with more details about VS 2013 community
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/visual-studio-community-2013-a-full-featured-ide-free/msg550822/#msg550822

What does it mean? Do we have now a IDE that can run on all the three OS's and can be used to develop GUI based programs that can run on all three OS's? The best I know so far is Eclipse.

I haven't use Visual Studio and Microsoft APIs for more than 15 years now and I don't miss it. Since then working at home and professionally mostly with open source tools and variants of Unix, some for very large scale systems.  Life is good.

[Rigby]

The Microsoft APIs of 15 years ago and the Microsoft APIs of today are as different as red and green.

With full respect to you, I don't consider any 15 year old opinion on development to be valid.  SO MUCH has changed.  The .NET APIs aren't perfect, but they are SO FAR beyond what MS had available in 1999.

Honestly.  Do yourself some credit and give .net an honest try. 

Given that this is a Microsoft that open sourced .net, and just released a free version of visual studio specifically for nonprofit stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if a Linux or Mac version of VS is on its way.

Things have changed.

Edit: grammar.

[miguelvp]

True, a lot has changed since Visual Studio 6.0

Edit: and if you know how, you can put your own custom tool chains

[zapta]

True, a lot has changed since Visual Studio 6.0

Edit: and if you know how, you can put your own custom tool chains

Isn't this what Atmel did with their studio?   It's windows only and has a monstrous installation (compare for example to lpcxpresso/eclipse).

As for Microsoft API getting much better, that's very possible since microsoft has very talented engineers,  but it's limited to their property OS so no much incentive for me. Same goes for Altium Circuit Maker which supports windows only. I learned to appreciate openness and deployment flexibility. YMMV.

[miguelvp]

Suit yourself on both counts (well on three counts if you include AutoTRAX).

[zapta]

Suit yourself on both counts (well on three counts if you include AutoTRAX).

My non scientific observation is that programs that support all three OS's do better in the maker/hobby/open-source market. Circuit Maker doesn't and this a major limitation in this market.

[miguelvp]

That's fine, myself I'm happy with an OS that supports them all which I paid $139.80 including taxes and I'm using it exclusively for electronics.

Sure it's an off Lease refurbished system; Intel Core 2 Duo E8400 Processor 3.0GHz; Microsoft Windows 7 Professional 64bit; 4GB DDR3-1333 RAM; 160GB Hard Drive; DVD-ROM Drive and no Display, and I added 2 500 GB drives that I had, not the quickest system out there but fills my needs.

So I'll be able to try Altium CM on it along with PSoC Creator, Keil uVision, LTSpice, Altera Quartus II, Eagle, etc

[Rigby]

As for Microsoft API [...] it's limited to their [proprietary] OS so no much incentive for me.

It isn't, though.  Mono is available on Linux and Mac, the official C# compiler is open source, and now nearly ALL of .net is open source as well.

It can't get much less proprietary.