Not Needed:
o Rooms
i feel something is terribly wrong. did you miss the word "trial" or "30 days evaluation"?, or simply Altium is closing down?Now talking about the evaluation. Dave mentioned (https://twitter.com/eevblog/status/499035676814225408) Altium is releasing a free version. Light on details right now.
It's got 3D.
In fact, its supposed to have most stuff you are used to.
The idea is not to limit the actual functionality.
What features do you think Altium should not include in their free version?
What deal breakers are there for you to *not* want to try their free version?
I'll start:
Not Needed:
o Rooms
o Auto Router
o Templates and Wizards
Deal Breaker
o No 3D
maybe this version will have a different file format that will be limited in some way unless you part with more $$.
Free for non-commercial use I'd guess.
And the open sores crowd will continue using kicad/eagle because it's cross platform.
I hope they exclude the fpga/Embedded stuff, together with the C compiler.
Free for non-commercial use I'd guess.
Nope!
I hope they exclude the fpga/Embedded stuff, together with the C compiler. Simulation can go, its cumbersome anyway. Keep all functions in schematic/PCB. 3D is a must.
I would be perfectly fine if they would limit it to 6 layers or number of components to some 2-3000. And no vault. Maybe even the Gerber editor could go, it is FUBAR anyway, if they would keep (and improve) the viewing.
Huh. From the details you're giving, I can say for certainty that this is either going to be an industry game changer or a completely mismanaged flop.
I hope they exclude the fpga/Embedded stuff, together with the C compiler.
maybe this version will have a different file format that will be limited in some way unless you part with more $$.
Of course it will be limited in some way, and of course you have to part with $$ to get more.
Altium are a commercial PCB tool developer, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make money.
No, that will have little to do with why people will continue to use them. People stick with programs because they are invested in them.
Another take could be that the cut down version will only export an encrypted file that is then sent to board shops who team up with Altium. These board shops then add on a margin to each job which is paid to Altium for the decryption tool.
Mustn't upset the precious shareholders.
Mustn't upset the precious shareholders.
Well, the fact is Altium is a publicly listed company, and they do have a legal fiduciary responsibility as a public company to make a profit for their shareholders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary)
Many people forget this.
If they were a charity, they would be registered as a charity, not a public company.
The problem is law and the institutionalized drive to increase profit, as if profit is the only measure of a companies success.
The problem is law and the institutionalized drive to increase profit, as if profit is the only measure of a companies success.
If that wasn't the case then why would anyone invest in a public company?
If you don't want to play that game, don't take your company public, or don't buy products from a publicly listed company.
Of course, there are ways to be a nice company and still make a profit, they aren't mutually exclusive.
Mustn't upset the precious shareholders.
Well, the fact is Altium is a publicly listed company, and they do have a legal fiduciary responsibility as a public company to make a profit for their shareholders.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiduciary)
Many people forget this.
If they were a charity, they would be registered as a charity, not a public company.
There are other reasons to invest in companies, For instance an environmentally conscious individual may invest in a new green-technology company for its positive effect on the environment.
This is not an investment, this is charity.
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+I disagree - any effort catering for minority platforms is effort that could be put into making the tools better.
Thumbs Up! for Altium, this was previously discussed but making Altium multi platform will be much better for the maker community.
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+I disagree - any effort catering for minority platforms is effort that could be put into making the tools better.
Thumbs Up! for Altium, this was previously discussed but making Altium multi platform will be much better for the maker community.
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+I disagree - any effort catering for minority platforms is effort that could be put into making the tools better.
Thumbs Up! for Altium, this was previously discussed but making Altium multi platform will be much better for the maker community.
No, no, no. If you can grab 80% of the people with 20% effort, you should do that. Windows is well above 90% market share, and all engineering productivity tool is on windows.:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+I disagree - any effort catering for minority platforms is effort that could be put into making the tools better.
Thumbs Up! for Altium, this was previously discussed but making Altium multi platform will be much better for the maker community.
They can do both. And, with the added feedback of the hobbyist community, maybe they'll feel impetus to actually make a few changes they wouldn't have otherwise made.
Doing this right is critical to market acceptance and growth.Huh. From the details you're giving, I can say for certainty that this is either going to be an industry game changer or a completely mismanaged flop.Yep, I was excited by what I heard and saw.
Like I've said, there were few things that made me think they are headed in the wrong direction here.
Doesn't mean they can't completely screw it up in true Altium tradition though ;D
:-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+I disagree - any effort catering for minority platforms is effort that could be put into making the tools better.
Thumbs Up! for Altium, this was previously discussed but making Altium multi platform will be much better for the maker community.
90% of the features are not used by typical users, but all the extra "features" get in the way of what you want to do.I fully agree. This is one of the reasons that DipTrace & Proteus have become very productive alternatives for many users.
If Altium Free is a ground-up new design, without any of the marketing wank-word functions, then it may well be a better (cleaner, simpler) product.I agree, but I doubt it will happen. Altium lost its way in the mid 1990's & I doubt they have suddenly seen the light in 2014.
Every effort catering for a feature that I don't is effort that could be put into making the features that I use better.
Cross platform is just another feature. Some use it, some not.
Every effort catering for a feature that I don't is effort that could be put into making the features that I use better.
Cross platform is just another feature. Some use it, some not.
To a point... You can't put 1,000 people on a single feature and expect anything to get done, so there's some boundary between 2 and 1,000 where there is no gain to putting more man-hours into the project. In my experience, the number is very small, say around 8 on the high side. So if you have 10 developers on staff, and you have 8 working on a single feature, putting two more on there isn't going to help much, if at all, and will likely slow everyone else down. There are a lot of open source projects that can easily prove this. Infighting and politics bog down just about any project when everyone has their hands in things.
The odd super team here or there will be the exception to that, of course. Those super teams are VERY much an exception to the rule.
Even in projects with a very strong structure, where people don't clobber each other's work, the bottleneck will become the project management. The project leader/manager in those types of teams will need to have the vision and the clarity to drive the thing forward, and there will be a point where adding additional labor won't speed him up at all.
So, no, I disagree. You can't just unilaterally toss more effort into something to get it done faster. At some point, adding more resources necessarily slows things down.
maybe this version will have a different file format that will be limited in some way unless you part with more $$.
Of course it will be limited in some way, and of course you have to part with $$ to get more.
Altium are a commercial PCB tool developer, they have a fiduciary responsibility to their shareholders to make money.
Mustn't upset the precious shareholders.
QuoteThis is not an investment, this is charity.
A rose by any other name..
I'm wondering when this free version is due.Maybe at electronica 2014 in november?
Every effort catering for a feature that I don't is effort that could be put into making the features that I use better.
Cross platform is just another feature. Some use it, some not.
To a point... You can't put 1,000 people on a single feature and expect anything to get done, ...
I'm wondering when this free version is due.
The goal of a design tool is to get work done, not make a political statement. It just needs to work on one platform well. I wouldn't put it past Altium to make a decision to throw away money at a cross platform version but it would be very, very dumb.
I'm wondering when this free version is due.https://makerfaire.files.wordpress.com/2014/09/mf14ny_program_lores.pdf
See the last Page. They are a sponsor.
I'm getting another demo early next week.# PCB layers?
Anything you want me to specifically ask them?
Compatibility with existing Altium libraries?
BOM?
Will the user be able to create commercial (i.e. professional paid-for) designs?
If this product is of good enough quality, why would users ever spend money on a paid Altium product?
I'm getting another demo early next week.
Dave, with all the cr*p you have dealt out to Altium in recent times, I'm surprised they are even talking to you.
I like to think it's constructive criticism ;D
But yeah, I was very surprised too.
I'm still banned from their forum...
The goal of a design tool is to get work done, not make a political statement. It just needs to work on one platform well. I wouldn't put it past Altium to make a decision to throw away money at a cross platform version but it would be very, very dumb.
They have told me that it will be Windows only. They don't have the need (and maybe resources) to compile for another platform yet, they said it's a lot of work.
Will the user be able to create commercial (i.e. professional paid-for) designs?
Yes, the free version can be used for commercial use.QuoteIf this product is of good enough quality, why would users ever spend money on a paid Altium product?
You pay for better functionality in this one too. It's not just free and then $10K for Altium Designer.
It's not "a lot of work" if you write clean, well commented code that follows standards.
If this were a new program written from scratch, you'd think that would be the case. So this tells me it's most likely heavily based on their legacy code.
But yeah, I was very surprised too.
They get free (I assume) buzz for their new product launch and you get an early look at it. It's a win/win.
I'm getting another demo early next week.
Anything you want me to specifically ask them?
What's the release date?
I will assume that the free version is not for commercial applications
Believe it when we see it.
I'm getting another demo early next week.Two more question the others did not ask (or maybe they did?).
Anything you want me to specifically ask them?
I guess using me as kind of a community barometer.
what are they planning in the way of importers/exporters to other formats?
Will it be sufficiently open/documented for people to write their own converters to/from their format?
They are apparently targetting Eagle - if they don't have an Eagle importer they will fail.what are they planning in the way of importers/exporters to other formats?
As with most lower cost software, it would be usual to have some importers but few (if any) exporters.
Will it be sufficiently open/documented for people to write their own converters to/from their format?That would kill it stone dead at birth Anything like that and it is simply not a free package.Quote
I doubt it, in fact perhaps Altium are going to provide the low cost version for free but then charge you each time you want to generate gerbers
In fact, perhaps once you have finished your design, you log in to the Altium server, get your credit card out & Altium then converts the encrypted production file into gerbers/Altium production files. Maybe that cost will depend on the number of pads or the board size or perhaps the number of layers.
They should open source everything and accept donations only.
Dave, will it be a "limited time free license" and the user must buy some permanent license on expiry?
Hey I have work for you, but I will only pay you out of a paypal public donation fund, not from my pocket!
I doubt it, in fact perhaps Altium are going to provide the low cost version for free but then charge you each time you want to generate gerbers (or native Altium files that can be used for production). This would be innovative (which Dave says it is) & would allow the hobbyist who makes only a couple of boards a year to use quality software at a low cost.
In fact the more I think about it (having read Dave's earlier hints), the more I think this is the way Altium is likely headed.
Why speculating? We will know by the time they will make it available. And then they will adapt it based on market response.
They should open source everything and accept donations only.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uPZiMmCYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uPZiMmCYI)
QuoteHey I have work for you, but I will only pay you out of a paypal public donation fund, not from my pocket!
I have a better idea. How about I build a system that will help you achieve your goal. If you think its worth me maintaining this system you can help by donating.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uPZiMmCYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uPZiMmCYI)
You just don't get open source, it's the property of the original coder, the rest of the coding is free work for him.
Now, who is stupid?
Quotehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uPZiMmCYI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3uPZiMmCYI)
You are right. Nothing good has ever come out of open sores.
Should have learnt how to change settings on my Smartphone
No, that is not how it works. You pay for extra design capabilities, just like Eagle etc.
They have told me that it will be Windows only. They don't have the need (and maybe resources) to compile for another platform yet, they said it's a lot of work.
It's not "a lot of work" if you write clean, well commented code that follows standards.
If this were a new program written from scratch, you'd think that would be the case. So this tells me it's most likely heavily based on their legacy code.
Sent from my Smartphone
The problem is abstraction layers add bloat and slowness, and tend to be designed to hos general-purpose applications.
A new design could be implemented for example using QT or a similar abstraction and even if the first release is windows only, Linux and Mac can be added later.
Well, Altium Designer is written in Delphi, so porting to Linux would be a challenge no matter how clean the code is.
[But the support & testing issues alone mean it just isn't worth catering for minority platforms with a specialist tool like this.
I doubt that the Maker community will embrace a Windows only product. Think of vendors like Sparkfun, Adafruit and Arduino which release Eagle design files for their products. It's unlikely that they will exclude non Windows customers.
Linux has a very long way to go before it will be useful as a desktop in any way. There a thousands of reasons it is barely even supportable in the wild.Well, Altium Designer is written in Delphi, so porting to Linux would be a challenge no matter how clean the code is.
Delphi does support Mac OSX, right?
Looks like they took a wrong turn sometime in the past. ;-)
PCB layout is always going to be a niche specialist field. Maybe slightly less so in recent years but we're not going to get a TV show featuring celebrities trying to make PCBs any time soon.. ;D[But the support & testing issues alone mean it just isn't worth catering for minority platforms with a specialist tool like this.
I think they are now trying to make it a non specialist tool.
PCB layout is always going to be a niche specialist field. Maybe slightly less so in recent years but we're not going to get a TV show featuring celebrities trying to make PCBs any time soon.. ;D
@Mikeselectricstuff: Cross platform frameworks don't add bloat. They provide an extremely thin layer on top of the underlying OS API. I have developed quite a few pieces of software which run on both Windows and (embedded) Linux and they work with the same speed on both platforms.
Linux has a very long way to go before it will be useful as a desktop in any way. There a thousands of reasons it is barely even supportable in the wild.
I won't argue that specific configurations aren't supportable, because specific configurations are configurable. Thing is, there are no two Linux desktop machines that are both in use and of a standard software configuration. Everyone has a favorite window manager, uses a new kernel, needs to update GCC or libpng or whatever else needs maintenance this week.
If not bloat, then call it cruft. It doesn't "feel" like a native app 99% of the time. ...
Linux has a very long way to go before it will be useful as a desktop in any way. There a thousands of reasons it is barely even supportable in the wild...
PCB layout is always going to be a niche specialist field. Maybe slightly less so in recent years but we're not going to get a TV show featuring celebrities trying to make PCBs any time soon.. ;D
That's an idea, PCB Wars, Iron PCB Designer and Britain Got PCB Talent on TV. ;-)
Well, Altium Designer is written in Delphi, so porting to Linux would be a challenge no matter how clean the code is.
this tells me the DipTrace guys are good programmers
The $42,000 question to Altium: How do we get to beta test it?
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.ok now... "free altium" is now make sense.
No library and no local saving ??? that sucks
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.Looking forward to hear news of leaked naked PCB designs 8)
I suppose I could warm up to this eventually, but for that to happen this will have to be miracle software in every other way. Suddenly, I've stopped looking forward to it. :(
- NO, it's not limited to single sheet, only those restrictions mentioned above.
- AD will import these projects, but not vice-versa. So you can use this and then step up to AD, but not go backwards.
I suspect most people just switched off at that point. The community manages to share projects just fine and still manages to allow people to have local copies. I don't want to look for my files in the cloud on a day when there is a clear blue sky.
Questions to answer once the Beta goes live - not limited sheet, not multichannel, but can you nest sheets, or are you limited to a flat design?
I am suspicious of why they want the project files stored only in the cloud. What's in it for them? I'm not interested in listening to the marketing spin.
What is in it for Altium?
I suspect most people just switched off at that point. The community manages to share projects just fine and still manages to allow people to have local copies. I don't want to look for my files in the cloud on a day when there is a clear blue sky.
I told Altium that the program will live or die by acceptance of this restriction.
I guess they won't know until they try it...
I also don't want the arse of renting a bit more board space at 3am on the night before a product design is due.
I give it a week at most before hackers enable local saving, unlock the limits and stop the software phoning home.
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.
Yeah, I'm pretty bummed. But then I realise I use gmail and google docs :palm:
I'm guessing that all libraries that people upload will become property of Altium
I am suspicious of why they want the project files stored only in the cloud. What's in it for them?
Dave, does 'cloud' means Altium servers only with no cost-free data libration? If so, this is not a 'cloud', it a proprietary lock in by an evil company.
Compare with http://dataliberation.org (http://dataliberation.org)
You should call them on that, even if they are schmoozing you.
And your files if you don't continue to pay the "File retention fee" year after year.
So they can charge you for storing them year after year.
Both products allow you to get your data to your computer in a useable format (which I do often) Will Altium allow that?
Guys, server side data storage is the way of the future. As internet speeds increase, especially wireless, we'll get to a point where all data is stored on server farms. Our entire OS's won't even be local anymore.
Assimilate.
Sent from my Smartphone
I.E. In Eagle I quite often duplicate a project to back it up, or to create a new rev (not for production but to test routing scenarios etc).
Guys, server side data storage is the way of the future. As internet speeds increase, especially wireless, we'll get to a point where all data is stored on server farms. Our entire OS's won't even be local anymore.
Assimilate.
Sent from my Smartphone
Yes. As long as they don't restrict you to it and use it as a leverage to buy their software.
I'm still banned from their forum...One might think for the publicity gained here this might change? >:D
Any idea if allowing local storage will be a paid option?
Similarly is push-and-shove likely to be a paid option?
I suspect the number of people who can code well in Delphi is around 0.1% of the number of people who can code well in Fortran, Algol and ADA.
Have had another talk and demo with AltiumFail. If I can't work because my internet connection or their server is down that is completely unacceptable.
Some answers to some questions:
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.
Yes, that sucks. But it is most certainly a PC based program, nothing web based. The whole idea behind this is to encourage and share projects and libraries online.
Which presupposes enough community to be useful.
There will be lots of community power in the program to do this I can't talk about quite yet. Suffice it to say that the community is the cornerstone of the entire concept of the tool.
Fail - this is an essential feature in any modern PCB software.
So it won't have the likes of push'n'shove,
- YES, the free version can be used for commercial projects.But who is going to risk doing a commercial project on something dependent on their server and them not abandoning it some time in the future?
- The free version will have a limit on how many projects you can keep "private". You can pay for more private projects. Once again the emphasis is on encouraging open projects and sharing with the community. Yes you'll be able to work on your project privately until it's released though.How can they stop people using multiple accounts to get round this?
Although probably acceptable for a free tool, unless you can pay a reasonable amount to remove this restriction, they will fail to get people to commit to a paid version, which has to be their ultimate goal to make it worthwhile.Any idea if allowing local storage will be a paid option?
Similarly is push-and-shove likely to be a paid option?
Nope and nope. Not at this stage anyway.
But as I said, they seem very willing the change this based on beta feedback/rage.
As an alternative to other free ECAD software i see no problem with any of this, its free.
Im wondering though if it will be possibe to cooperate on a board with other users. Or if you could get feedack or see how your desing has been changed by other users? F.ex. you work on a board with a fellow student, it is public as working. A couple weeks later you could see someone used your design but upgraded to an arm, changed to 12v supply or made it smaller.
"Windows XP2: Cloud Boogaloo"
But who is going to risk doing a commercial project on something dependent on their server and them not abandoning it some time in the future?
That said, when Altium's license server stopped playing a year or two back, I was livid...A problem is that all the people who come up with these web-based concepts are used to having reliable, fast internet connections, and don't think about the implications for people who don't.
The whole issue is about risk of not being able to use it, or losing data.Link to mikeselectricstuff's Altium Free POLL:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-free-version/msg513318/#msg513318 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-free-version/msg513318/#msg513318)QuoteYes - I consider reliance on the net and their server to be an acceptable risk
Doesn't this poll option mean all other options have an implicit inference that the cloud risk is unacceptable? Or am I biased and therefore missing something?
Fail. If I can't work because my internet connection or their server is down that is completely unacceptable.
What happens if you've spent hours on a design & suddenly can't save it? Is there a way to deal with this situation?
Any paid version would absolutely have to allow standalone use or they won't get any significant sales.
Want to move from AD to Eagle or KiCAD or DIPtrace, or...? Altium won't help you with that:
I was looking forward to trying Altium but if there is no local backup/save, sorry. That's just not usable, not even for toy projects.
people will likely rather stay with Eagle/Diptrace/Kicad/whatever.
What were these guys thinking? :palm:
If Altium want to secure the Eagle user market, they are going to have to do better.
Once your happy with the design and maybe want to take the project to the next level you could pay some money and get the file local.
Im wondering though if it will be possibe to cooperate on a board with other users. Or if you could get feedack or see how your desing has been changed by other users?
Fail. If I can't work because my internet connection or their server is down that is completely unacceptable.
What happens if you've spent hours on a design & suddenly can't save it? Is there a way to deal with this situation?
But who is going to risk doing a commercial project on something dependent on their server and them not abandoning it some time in the future?
That's one huge feature of Upverter that I really love: Collaboration. It makes working with another designer halfway across the world so, so easy.
Fail. If I can't work because my internet connection or their server is down that is completely unacceptable.
What happens if you've spent hours on a design & suddenly can't save it? Is there a way to deal with this situation?
Any paid version would absolutely have to allow standalone use or they won't get any significant sales.
Maybe they'll adopt a system whereby that in the event of the Net going down mid session then the software would save to cache which would allow you to close down the software/PC, and then when you bring it back up again it reconciliates with the server to save. Thats gotta be minumum functionality..........
Ian.
I find it interesting that there's already a definite trend in the poll towards people not being interested at all, and almost no-one who would pay a small amount to have a non-cloud option.
People really have high expectations for "free" these days.
What about parts ? Can you create & keep parts locally or do you also need to do this online?
Parts are online, it's part of their big community and tie-in with other data suppliers as you'll see when released.
This is a critical feature. Programs such that don't do this are some primitive.... The router is such a big deal as it is a large part of your one's work.
Without push shove and multi-trace routine (it is really nice to grab 10 signals at once...), the router turns into the crap that Diptrace, Eagle and KiCad have.
2.) The PCB design rules engine.
It looks to me as if Altium have quite neatly split the market, between toy customers who don't mind the risk of downtime, and people on a deadline with data security requirements, who'll just stick with the proper version. There's not a lot of overlap.
Funny how I survived just fine as a professional PCB layout designer for more than decade without a push'n'shove router.
Many PCB designers I know refuse to use it because they "don't want no stinking software moving my traces for me!"
I find it interesting that there's already a definite trend in the poll towards people not being interested at all, and almost no-one who would pay a small amount to have a non-cloud option.
I don't understand the vitriol.and yet....
If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT. You're not being forced into anything, including online storage of yer bits. If you don't want your non-physical 1s and 0s stored in the cloud, then don't use the tool. It's fuckin' simple.
I don't understand the vitriol. If you don't like it, DON'T USE IT. You're not being forced into anything, including online storage of yer bits. If you don't want your non-physical 1s and 0s stored in the cloud, then don't use the tool. It's fuckin' simple.
Actually negative feedback is potentially more useful, as it is highlighting things that need fixing to make things better
Seriously, negative feedback is just as valid as positive feedback.
The biggest beef I will have is that of version control. I like to have a project repository with everything in it. (Source, documentation, etc). It is easy to life cycle manage something now with SVN. If Altium's stuff is in the cloud, that may make things a bit more difficult.
No library and no local saving ??? that sucks
No local saving indeed sucks.
But there will be library parts, just not what you are used to if you have a full AD subscription.
The idea is that the community will build libraries and everyone will use libraries online in a much more sharing way than how AD currently does it. Once again, there will be some powerful things in this area I can't talk much about yet.
The whole point of it is that it's stupid having everyone making their own library part when it's already been done and used in the community.
I am suspicious of why they want the project files stored only in the cloud. What's in it for them? What is in it for Altium?still living in the cloud? let me tell you a summary from what i gathered in this forum about altium the company... directive #1: protecting shareholders' investment... that means probably you'll need to buy full $5K license in order to resurrect your project file in local space drive. or worst as other have said, you'll need to pay "bug fix" or "maintenance" fee anually in order to continue to enjoy access to your many hours of effort of project file. no free lunch man, no free lunch. do you think they can afford to store gazzillions of hobbiest project files in their cloud for free for eternal life? i dont think so. this is a "trap for young players" ;)
Guys, server side data storage is the way of the future....anymore.you are absolutely right, assimilate and being reborn again as a monkey
Assimilate.
They should open source everything and accept donations only.
I find it interesting that there's already a definite trend in the poll towards people not being interested at all, and almost no-one who would pay a small amount to have a non-cloud option.
People really have high expectations for "free" these days.
I think it is a question of efficiency. Having real time DRC just makes things so much faster. Not only is the routing faster but clean up as well. I just completed a design with a high speed memory interface. The push-shove differential router was really nice. Sure you can screw with 200 traces manually to fix DRC errors, but I personally have more better uses of my time.
At this point it is like arguing that coding without an editor that has syntax highlighting or shitting in an outhouse. When I grew up we had one. It is really nice that I have now have toilet and don't have to clean the stall. It's call progress!
Maybe it'll be awesome. Maybe it'll be a catalyst that kick starts some better development in kicad or eagle or your favorite tool. Who knows? Until we get our hands on it we are all just talking out of our asses.
And re willing to pay for that - that's like getting a "free" car, but hey, you have to actually pay $10k for getting the engine if you want to drive elsewhere than in your garage. Is it having high expectations that the product is actually fit for its intended purpose? That it is "free" is really irrelevant there.I'd say "drive elsewhere than in our garage". Anyway, no local storage - a complete show stopper to me, I'll stick with KiCad though it's a PITA sometimes.
Altium did stop and re-think their whole direction based on my video and the community response to that. And they will almost certainly be willing to do so again with the product once it's in beta. If you want to shape this tool, join the beta program and provide feedback.So as the video was nearly 12 months ago, best we do not hold our breaths while waiting for a finalized version.
Maybe it'll be awesome. Maybe it'll be a catalyst that kick starts some better development in kicad or eagle or your favorite tool. Who knows? Until we get our hands on it we are all just talking out of our asses.
I get the very clear impression that Altium do want to do this right, and they genuinely want people to tell them what they want. But if everyone goes in and just says "I hate this and that", I refuse to use it, or whatever, then it's not going to go anywhere.
Atlium did stop and re-think their whole direction based on my video and the community response to that. And they will almost certainly be willing to do so again with the product once it's in beta. If you want to shape this tool, join the beta program and provide feedback.
People will survive just fine without push'n'shove in the low end package.
but this will alienate Defence, Banking, Medical, and all other industries that need to restrict access to their data.
If Microsoft force this onto end users
...
What matters to me is the EULA. If Altium claim ownership of everything I do
You'll get no argument from me.
I'm just saying that Altium are differentiating the low end package by removing some design efficiency tools you take for granted in the full AD package.
And that is Altium's big problem, they have an existing $70M in sales to protect, they are a one-product company.
If the low end package is as efficient to use as the full package then there is no differentiator and many professionals won't have an incentive to upgrade.
People will survive just fine without push'n'shove in the low end package.
QuotePeople will survive just fine without push'n'shove in the low end package.
I understand your point. I know I been really spoiled by it!
Altium Designer is a powerful package that generally is not bought by hobbyists or “makers” for laying out their typical PCB’s of a few square inches with limited net lists. Putting reasonable restrictions on these aspects alone would be sufficient to protect their professional market share whilst keeping 99% of those hobbyists happy.
However, a cloud-only storage restriction is just going to make the package on offer a non-consideration for a large number of people, particularly semi-professionals who are the ones most likely to occasionally take advantage of the facility for renting expanded features for a limited duration of time. Seriously, saying that the package can be used unrestricted for commercial purposes but disallowing local storage is just a joke.Also agreed, they have failed here. And it only has downsides, it was not a sensible decision from almost any view point when logically thought through and with a knowledge of the industry. There are ways to have the best of both worlds here and I hope they realise that.
Altium Designer is a powerful package that generally is not bought by hobbyists or “makers” for laying out their typical PCB’s of a few square inches with limited net lists. Putting reasonable restrictions on these aspects alone would be sufficient to protect their professional market share whilst keeping 99% of those hobbyists happy.
I agree, that is entirely adequate and what everyone was expected.
Also limiting the "productivity" stuff in AD is a good step too most would be quite happy with.QuoteHowever, a cloud-only storage restriction is just going to make the package on offer a non-consideration for a large number of people, particularly semi-professionals who are the ones most likely to occasionally take advantage of the facility for renting expanded features for a limited duration of time. Seriously, saying that the package can be used unrestricted for commercial purposes but disallowing local storage is just a joke.Also agreed, they have failed here. And it only has downsides, it was not a sensible decision from almost any view point when logically thought through and with a knowledge of the industry. There are ways to have the best of both worlds here and I hope they realise that.
A year has passed and how many hundred posts ?Belt us out your "wish list" Dave.
Go back to look at video #527 it might answer some questions.
So with your intimate relationship with Altium ;), and your extensive knowledge of AD, how would you advise them to proceed?
Minimum functionality required? Additional for a fee?
Ditch the Cloud? Local storage option for a fee?
Libraries available online at extra cost? Permanent or temporary? Logged in access only?
Belt us out your "wish list" Dave.
Atlium did stop and re-think their whole direction based on my video and the community response to that. And they will almost certainly be willing to do so again with the product once it's in beta. If you want to shape this tool, join the beta program and provide feedback.
The $42,000 question to Altium: How do we get to beta test it?
They will have limited early sign-up, just ask. Website with signup coming very shortly.
Quote from: neslekkim on Today at 05:30:32 PM (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=35663.msg513884#msg513884)
Anywhere to register for the beta?
To me it's a total no brainer. If you want to play and win in this space (which I think this product can) then they have to take that leap of faith that allowing off-line mode is not going to erode the AD user base. And it won't to any huge degree. It will to some degree, but that is manageable, and likely calculable. And you pick up the limitless potential on the low end side.Given they have been pushing this cloud integration crap with AD for some time, is it possible protecting AD is not the main reason for having to use their servers?
If I'm milling my board, I add extra length to pads to enable easier soldering.Who said anything about one size fits all footprints? No reason you can't have multiple versions, and be able to alter pad styles on an existing footprint without creating a new part
If I'm reflowing, smaller pads, and wave soldering (yes, people still do this - my old boss has a wave soldering machine in his workshop!) has it's own requirements again.
One size fits all footprints will not work - and I feel sorry for the noobs who use a library that's great for reflow and find they can't hand solder their new boards....
If I'm milling my board, I add extra length to pads to enable easier soldering.Who said anything about one size fits all footprints? No reason you can't have multiple versions, and be able to alter pad styles on an existing footprint without creating a new part
If I'm reflowing, smaller pads, and wave soldering (yes, people still do this - my old boss has a wave soldering machine in his workshop!) has it's own requirements again.
One size fits all footprints will not work - and I feel sorry for the noobs who use a library that's great for reflow and find they can't hand solder their new boards....
A problem I can see with "community" libraries is quality & consistency, even things like naming conventions. But conversely you can't really impose standards or any review process as you will restrict what people can do.
Probably the best you can do is have a means by which users can rate library items.
For example can I create a PCB footprint without bothering to create and map it to a corresponding schematic symbol because it's a simple quick 1-off job?
If I'm only using 30 pins on a 100 pin FPGA, why bother taking time to put all 100 pins on the schematic symbol.
Someone mentioned the issue of schematic symbols with pins in the right place, but I'd hope that it would be possible to move pins around on an existing symbol without creating a new one
If they had not hit a home run with their product and timing in the late 90's, I think they would have gone out of business long ago.That's probably true of a great many companies.
I've never liked the way Protel and now Altium handles both schematic components and PCB footprint libraries. The inability to comprehensively modify schematic symbols on the open sheet has always been a pain.
Someone mentioned the issue of schematic symbols with pins in the right place, but I'd hope that it would be possible to move pins around on an existing symbol without creating a new oneif they can;t be moved i won't even use it. i HATE integrated circuits that are drawn as a rectangle with the pins in sequence order. it makes wiring a mess.
I find it interesting that they want to build a maker 'community' but restrict it to Windows users only. Definitely not a good start. ;-)
Makers don't give a hoot about the OS they're using. Being a "Maker" has NOTHING to do with one's choice of operating system. Nothing at all. It has to do with making things...
I find it interesting that they want to build a maker 'community' but restrict it to Windows users only. Definitely not a good start. ;-)
Makers don't give a hoot about the OS they're using. Being a "Maker" has NOTHING to do with one's choice of operating system. Nothing at all. It has to do with making things...
You guys are so out of touch. Go to a MakerFaire and look at the number of people with MacBooks vs PCs.
Macs are also becoming super popular in high school through college.
Just because you live in a little Windows bubble, don't assume everyone else does too. It's not 1999 anymore.
Makers don't give a hoot about the OS they're using. Being a "Maker" has NOTHING to do with one's choice of operating system. Nothing at all. It has to do with making things...
Professionals will get whatever machine their mission critical app requires.
For non professional it's just another app that doesn't justify OS change. Different mindset.
Makers don't give a hoot about the OS they're using. Being a "Maker" has NOTHING to do with one's choice of operating system. Nothing at all. It has to do with making things...
Professionals will get whatever machine their mission critical app requires. For non professional it's just another app that doesn't justify OS change. Different mindset.
Altium supports Windows, maybe Mac. Expanding that for a freemium version won't happen. They're trying to extract money from YOU; they aren't going to blow it supporting a platform their premium tools don't support.
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;D
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;DDone. Thank you!
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;DDone. Thank you!
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;D
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
Hi all,
Been out of it for a day or so....so may have missed something.......So is that background image on the beta site the new app?
I played with it a bit in ACDSEE so could view it better.
Ian.
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;D
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
Hi all,
Been out of it for a day or so....so may have missed something.......So is that background image on the beta site the new app?
I played with it a bit in ACDSEE so could view it better.
Ian.
Free to start, and extendable through purchased enhancements, so you can expand the software as your designs become more complex and challenging.
And none of them use Linux.
Hi all,
Been out of it for a day or so....so may have missed something.......So is that background image on the beta site the new app?
I played with it a bit in ACDSEE so could view it better.
Ian.
If it is, it looks good.
Okay, new tool, new things to learn but Altium, PLEASE keep P T and * as shortcuts for routing!!
Been out of it for a day or so....so may have missed something.......So is that background image on the beta site the new app?
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;DThis looks like what we asked for. I'm still holding the word "incredible" back.
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
Ribbon!? :palm: |O....
Ribbon!? :palm: |O....
Ribbon!? :palm: |O....So?, it's a good way of grouping functionality
Ribbon!? :palm: |O....
Agreed. What's the problem? I like it (the ribbon menu).
Depends on the position's requirement(s) and the software you have experience in.
This software isn't released yet so it will be hard to say just how like or unlike Altium Designer it is overall.
In my experience, specific tool experience isn't very important. Anyone can learn a tool. The more useful trait is just plain passion. PCB tool experience in general is also very valuable. So, if you want a job that requires Altium Designer experience, this will probably get you closer.
Sigh. Name the security concerns. We aren't allowed Linux or Mac because of security concerns.
If people get sick of the cloud, check out KiCad.info (http://kicad.info) :D
Where can I see the features and limitations of this CircuitMaker?It isn't released yet and is in a closed beta.
And why Altium seems to not advertise it on their website?
For those who didn't believe I was telling the truth ;D
http://circuitmaker.com (http://circuitmaker.com)
Yes, they have resurrected the old name Circuit Maker which I think is a most excellent choice.
You can sign up on that site.
How could I resist? This whole subject just tickles me. Watching the handwringing over all these features :) I shan't message the K word in this thread againMention it all you like.
And finally, I actually won't be leaving KiCad because I'm used to it and there are no restrictions. I see it getting better in the next few years (though it has a ton of problems now as well). If people get sick of the cloud, check out KiCad.info (http://kicad.info) :D
Kicad and the other CM competitors do support the cloud, it's call github. ;-)
https://github.com/zapta/power-monitors/commit/cbf68082d77411b56746d49a4da8005c6a9a07c6 (https://github.com/zapta/power-monitors/commit/cbf68082d77411b56746d49a4da8005c6a9a07c6)
That's an interesting point. If they require cloud homed files because of the context-aware sharing, that's fine. If they require cloud storage and they don't have context-aware sharing and reuse, it is likely because they want to own the files you create. This would be a Very Uncool Move, IMHO, and would preclude me from using the tool in any capacity.
We'll see how it pans out. I'm hopeful.
With this new altium program those files will be accessible to more poeple ;D .
Nice. I can live with that. The site's legal area claims now ownership of design files, but I am not sure the app's legalese is represented there, yet.That's an interesting point. If they require cloud homed files because of the context-aware sharing, that's fine. If they require cloud storage and they don't have context-aware sharing and reuse, it is likely because they want to own the files you create. This would be a Very Uncool Move, IMHO, and would preclude me from using the tool in any capacity.
We'll see how it pans out. I'm hopeful.
If I understood Dave correclty the current plans use the jail model. You can drive to jail to visit your files (assuming your car is from an approved manufacturer) but need to pay bail to get them out.
;-)
its orange :) ( i hinted at this over year ago. )Done right, the ribbon requires no mouse usage. If you have access to an MS Office install, just press and release the ALT key while, say, Excel has focus. Lots of things light up. Push one of the keys that are shown and navigate the ribbon that way. It becomes very quick to do things if it's just an ALT, X, Y, Z away. Mouse will almost always be slower, especially so once you move those key sequences to muscle memory.
so it looks like altium Designer pre-flex design but with a ribbon bar bolted on.
does it have keyboard shortcuts ? ( i hate ribbon bar and menu click-o-dromes for cad layout. often used functions should be able to be invoked form menus , for newbies, as well as keyboard shortcuts for advanced users.
i gotta get me hands on the beta for that thing !
Don't think you'll be able to host your stuff in Github. The files are jailed by default. I don't think a get out of jail card has been revealed, yet.With this new altium program those files will be accessible to more poeple ;D .
This matters to me, too. While it won't satisfy the 'all the tools must be open' brigade, if it lets me easily release, and others easily reuse, work, I'll be a happy chap.
Don't think you'll be able to host your stuff in Github. The files are jailed by default. I don't think a get out of jail card has been revealed, yet.With this new altium program those files will be accessible to more poeple ;D .
This matters to me, too. While it won't satisfy the 'all the tools must be open' brigade, if it lets me easily release, and others easily reuse, work, I'll be a happy chap.
BTW, check your junk mail folder.
Not an important e-mail, just stating that it's in close beta but it puts you in the queue for potential close beta testers.
Anyways, check your junk mail folder if you did sign up.
Don't think you'll be able to host your stuff in Github. The files are jailed by default. I don't think a get out of jail card has been revealed, yet.
its orange :) ( i hinted at this over year ago. )Good question. They used to underline the shortcuts, and I don't see that here.
so it looks like altium Designer pre-flex design but with a ribbon bar bolted on.
does it have keyboard shortcuts ? ( i hate ribbon bar and menu click-o-dromes for cad layout. often used functions should be able to be invoked form menus , for newbies, as well as keyboard shortcuts for advanced users.
i gotta get me hands on the beta for that thing !
I mean, as far as I know now, you won't be able to get access to the files in order to upload them to Github.
Good question. They used to underline the shortcuts, and I don't see that here.
Most of the shortcut stuff is in my head and I can do it in a second but it takes like a minute to find it in the menus.
It would be a killer feature, if it could open and edit files from other EDA packages.
...
What matters to me is the EULA. If Altium claim ownership of everything I do
It does not matter EULA or not, you lose control over your data, it is not yours if it is on the cloud, many people are going to learn this hard way.
Then i will just provide the Circuitmaker link =)
Altium is supporting SVN. I guess this will be something cloud based and different.Then i will just provide the Circuitmaker link =)
Will it support versioning like github?
That is all good and everything, but can I get my usual hotkeys?Good question. They used to underline the shortcuts, and I don't see that here.
Most of the shortcut stuff is in my head and I can do it in a second but it takes like a minute to find it in the menus.
It would be a killer feature, if it could open and edit files from other EDA packages.
Usually, a press and release of the ALT key will get you going on ribbon keyboard shortcuts.
How could I resist? This whole subject just tickles me. Watching the handwringing over all these features :) I shan't message the K word in this thread againMention it all you like.
I reserve judgment on the Altium tool until I've used it. I've used Altium Designer, though, and it's pretty great.
I've used Kicad and I'm not sure how anyone can tolerate it. No one would tolerate the problems that software has if they paid even $1 for it.
The good thing about that it is that anyone using it is going to see impressive improvements in an already useful (to them) tool in the near future. There's a lot to be said for that. Kicad could be the most consistently up-to-date EDA software package, soon.
If anything I would like to see more development attention paid to Kicad. I REALLY hope that CERN can keep up their momentum.
Since Dave has had his hands on the new gee-whiz, it will be interesting to get his take on this.
Where can I see the features and limitations of this CircuitMaker?
And why Altium seems to not advertise it on their website?
Since Dave has had his hands on the new gee-whiz, it will be interesting to get his take on this.
I have not used it yet, just been given a demo of it via Skype.
Who cares about push n shove, if copy - paste doesn't work.That's complete misinformation. Pebkac.
So whats the catch how are they gonna make money of this "free" tool?
and ye all must be loving AutoTRAX DEX by that one guy, he got it much earlier than this multi million company. one issue i have with ribbon is they took several pixels more at the top compared to classic 16 pixels toolbuttons. and too much of it wont help, finding one particular button in the ribbon is like finding needle in a plate full of spaggethy. i dont tend to click ribbon or button now and then while working, i prefer shortcut keys.I like the ribbon, also.Agreed. What's the problem? I like it.Ribbon!? :palm: |O....So?, it's a good way of grouping functionality
Is this like a Comic Sans hatred thing? :D
Solution: No engineer or commercial company will go within a country mile of storage on a system outside their control and security. Arduino hipsters with homeless guy beards, clutching their Apple products and fixed-gear bicycles will love it! Two problems solved in one stroke of the marketing pen.
A ribbon is like a bain marie at a smorgasbord, you have to walk up and down to look at all the food and come away wondering what half of it is. Most people that can read prefer a menu. Adopting UI's designed for n00bs in what is ostensibly a highly technical application reeks of design by mass wanking. Personally, it makes me want to punch someone in the ribbon! |OAgreed. What's the problem? I like it.Ribbon!? :palm: |O....So?, it's a good way of grouping functionality
Is this like a Comic Sans hatred thing? :D
A ribbon is like a bain marie at a smorgasbord, you have to walk up and down to look at all the food and come away wondering what half of it is. Most people that can read prefer a menu. Adopting UI's designed for n00bs in what is ostensibly a highly technical application reeks of design by mass wanking. Personally, it makes me want to punch someone in the ribbon! |O
When Microsoft Office...To me it felt like I went from using professional tools to being given a plastic hammer that squeaked :)
Only being able to share gerbers will NOT cut it
- what is the catch, how do they make money, it starts to smell like in app purchases :palm: ?
If you need more capability than the free version offers then you can rent the option(s) for 3 or 12 months to finish your project, then revert back to the free version.Can you also buy a permanent upgrade though?
A ribbon is like a bain marie at a smorgasbord, you have to walk up and down to look at all the food and come away wondering what half of it is. Most people that can read prefer a menu. Adopting UI's designed for n00bs in what is ostensibly a highly technical application reeks of design by mass wanking. Personally, it makes me want to punch someone in the ribbon! |OAgreed. What's the problem? I like it.Ribbon!? :palm: |O....So?, it's a good way of grouping functionality
Is this like a Comic Sans hatred thing? :D
Alright, let's see if we can get some not so interesting technical details:
(snip)
- 8 GByte RAM
- 10 GByte hard disk space (Install + User Files) - Oh, that is too much for your average Macbook Air toy ;D
- NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 640 series or AMD® Radeon® HD 7770, 1024MB (or more) graphics card or better - Minimum requirement is Intel HD4000 :palm:
- Dual monitors with at least 1680x1050 (widescreen) or 1600x1200 (4:3) screen resolution
Alright, let's see if we can get some not so interesting technical details:
- RAM requirement, HDD requirement, 3D requirement
- Does it require continues connection to Altium Cloud? or maybe only on Save/Open/Syncing with the Cloud? In other words, is it possible to work with it on a flight from Sidney to London?
System requirements is irrelevant for professional/enthusiast, yet important for a hobbyist who wants to tweak some Arduino shields rapidly. Many hobbyist do not have access to a system which currently Altium recommends (http://techdocs.altium.com/display/ADOH/System+Requirements) for AD:
- 8 GByte RAM
- 10 GByte hard disk space (Install + User Files) - Oh, that is too much for your average Macbook Air toy ;D
- NVIDIA® GeForce® GT 640 series or AMD® Radeon® HD 7770, 1024MB (or more) graphics card or better - Minimum requirement is Intel HD4000 :palm:
- Dual monitors with at least 1680x1050 (widescreen) or 1600x1200 (4:3) screen resolution
Now, don't get me on the database system that first came out with Protel 98/99. Pure cr*p I reckon.
I live in the mountains, my internet can go up and down like a yoyo. being 'online' isnt reliable for me. i have source code projects from 10-15+ years old that I kept, I still have source code going back into dos days. will these be there in 10 years and available and usable?
too many questions and I have far too much lack of faith right now to trust this at all
...As entertaining as this all is, blathering on about it here probably won't accomplish much.
...As entertaining as this all is, blathering on about it here probably won't accomplish much.
So far you have 25 posts in this thread. ;-)
(no, I didn't count manually).
Good lord, someone made models for 1960s germanium transistors and those ancient rod resistors?
Hang on while I dig out my Ladybird book of Electronics... Ah, good times. But quite a while ago.
Good lord, someone made models for 1960s germanium transistors and those ancient rod resistors?
Hang on while I dig out my Ladybird book of Electronics... Ah, good times. But quite a while ago.
Not only that, but the copper traces look like someone smudged them with a soldering iron near the joins...
I have two complains, why only for Windows? sure, it takes a lot of resources to make that happen
Another screenshot leaked, with limited functionality revealed.
3D looks much better, seems they are going for eye-candy thing.
http://i.imgur.com/VJUTqBS.jpg (http://i.imgur.com/VJUTqBS.jpg)
Looks suspiciously pre-rendered though.
Looks suspiciously pre-rendered though.
Photoshopped. The file name and cursor locations are the same as the second pic I posted.
I have two complains, why only for Windows? sure, it takes a lot of resources to make that happen, and why not letting us to save files locally? :palm: :palm: :palm:
If you were in business to make a profit (vs operating a charity), would you invest your development resources into the 90% market share, or the 10% market share? It is as simple as that. Perhaps people who have never run a profitable business will never understand that.
Good catch! Neat rendering none the less. I should reverse image search it, see where it came from.
Can't help but to notice in the first picture I posted, it seems to be saving to a local drive(see the title bar)? No?
C:\SVN\CS Designers\arduino\................
I like the TOU on the website. If thei have the same TOUs in the software they'll get stomped into the ground.
"08
Idea Submission
While Altium remains committed to listening to its users about improving products or services, you understand that any ideas, inventions or materials (collectively, “Materials”) that you submit to Altium using the Website shall become the exclusive property of Altium and by submitting the same you relinquish all rights in the Materials upon their submission and waive any right to hold Altium liable for its use of or failure to use such Materials in any way.
"
QuoteC:\SVN\CS Designers\arduino\................
Is that not a locally stored file?
I like the TOU on the website. If thei have the same TOUs in the software they'll get stomped into the ground.
That's a completely different thing to grabbing the rights of user generated content, Thingiverse style. Worth watching to make sure they don't, but I don't think this is related.
If you were in business to make a profit (vs operating a charity), would you invest your development resources into the 90% market share, or the 10% market share? It is as simple as that. Perhaps people who have never run a profitable business will never understand that
QuoteC:\SVN\CS Designers\arduino\................
Is that not a locally stored file?
[when your giving the tool away for free does it matter if you target the 90% or 10% market. Free is $0 at any %
If you want your design on your hard drive the answer may be to pay for your software!
Just sayin', they have have to have some incentive for you to upgrade your membership if your designs are that sensitive. Considering they'er permitting some commercial work I wouldn't be surprised if there's a clause that states that the online storage doesn't meet requirements for engineering design management standards
Let me rephrase that. If you want your design on your hard drive you have to pay to LEASE our software, and if you do not continue to pay every year for your LEASED software it will cease to work until you PAY up your lease to date to get it to operate again.
I dislike the cloud idea if it means I cannot store locally. You know, because I don't always have an internet connection. ???Yes, because there are always like dozen of PCB designers at airports in suits, designing PCBs on their 10" ultrabook.
Like your footprints are proprietary to you or something.
LOL NDA footprints? That's a new one!
How is that any different to the current Altium Designer software?, unless you bought a perpetual license.
I dislike the cloud idea if it means I cannot store locally. You know, because I don't always have an internet connection. ???Yes, because there are always like dozen of PCB designers at airports in suits, designing PCBs on their 10" ultrabook.
If you like making anything PCB related without internet connection and being able to google anything, having access to the datasheets and application notes, mind as well draw the PCB with a fountain pen.
If you like making anything PCB related without internet connection and being able to google anything, having access to the datasheets and application notes, mind as well draw the PCB with a fountain pen.of course nobody ever designed PCBs before the internet....
I dislike the cloud idea if it means I cannot store locally. You know, because I don't always have an internet connection. ???Yes, because there are always like dozen of PCB designers at airports in suits, designing PCBs on their 10" ultrabook.
If you like making anything PCB related without internet connection and being able to google anything, having access to the datasheets and application notes, mind as well draw the PCB with a fountain pen.
Yes, because there are always like dozen of PCB designers at airports in suits, designing PCBs on their 10" ultrabook.
If you like making anything PCB related without internet connection and being able to google anything, having access to the datasheets and application notes, mind as well draw the PCB with a fountain pen.
Uh, no, there are dozens (of dozens of dozens, I'd wager) of people with unreliable connections at home.
...
It's 2014, not 2054. We don't all have the internet surgically implanted into our skulls.
Are you sure this free version is 'marketed for serious work'?
If it is, it's going to gut their existing market, and currently, we're the ones paying their wages / dividends.
That's the handicap of Altium when addressing to the maker market. They need to protect their legacy bread and butter. This is for example why Silicon Graphics and other dinosaurs died.
Uh, no, there are dozens (of dozens of dozens, I'd wager) of people with unreliable connections at home.
...
It's 2014, not 2054. We don't all have the internet surgically implanted into our skulls.
Git/Github have an excellent model of working with the cloud. Everything is cached locally in an accessible form and you sync in and out at the point of your choosing. While offline you can still have full repository functionality (add/reverter/remove/diff/log/branch/commit etc).
Other repositories like Perforce allow you to develop off line but without repository operations.
Not having an internet connection could well mean: "My DSL just went down and I have unsaved work on my screen!" Then what? Leave the machine running until the connection comes back (and pray things don't crash in the meantime)? What if you can't leave the machine running for some reason? Yeah, you can suspend it - which works once out of 10 attempts on desktop machines (it suspends, but whether it will resume correctly is a lottery).
Unhindered local save ability is not simply a matter of convenience for a tool that is marketed for serious work.
And all the othersI dislike the cloud idea if it means I cannot store locally. You know, because I don't always have an internet connection. ???Yes, because there are always like dozen of PCB designers at airports in suits, designing PCBs on their 10" ultrabook.
If you like making anything PCB related without internet connection and being able to google anything, having access to the datasheets and application notes, mind as well draw the PCB with a fountain pen.
Uh, no, there are dozens (of dozens of dozens, I'd wager) of people with unreliable connections at home.
And I don't need to Google anything to do the layout - at the layout stage, that's all done already, because I'm not an idiot and I actually prepare for my unreliable connection. Important documents are saved. That's what local storage is for.
It's 2014, not 2054. We don't all have the internet surgically implanted into our skulls.
...saving offline Should not be free, for the same reasons that we dont want this to be the last release from Altium. IF you make money with it, concerned about IP, dont want your data directly sent to NSA, KGB , Australian Secret Intelligence Service, and who knows where else, pay up. Simple as that.
???
I don't think the competition (eagle and diptrace) do that.
This is not a professional tool, dont consider it as one. It is not here to replace AD.Not the free version, but if they expect people to pay for upgrades etc. so they can actually make any money from it, there needs to be an obvious upgrade path to it being a profesional quality tool. A cloud-only system fails in this respect.
It's different from free eagle, the competition.
Here are some screen shots Altium gave to me to share:
Feeling pretty grumpy that i've spent a lot of money with Altium not so long ago and they are about to essentially give everyone else the same stuff for free.Yeah.
If not then tools like Kicad, Eagle, etc are much simpler to use and therefole take less time & effort to learn. Altium is never going to compete with tools which are easy to use.
What's going on with Maker Faire, why no updates? :(
IMHO Altium is way too complicated for hobbyist or small business use. I have been using schematics and layout software for over 25 years so I've seen my fair share of CAD software. I found Altium very hard and counter intuitive to use (I really needed the manual for every step of the process of making a PCB layout; usually I don't need a manual to get going with software). If you are working full time on schematic entry and PCB layout in a team then Altium definitely is worth considering. If not then tools like Kicad, Eagle, etc are much simpler to use and therefole take less time & effort to learn. Altium is never going to compete with tools which are easy to use.I find that logic a touch flawed. Todays components have smaller geometries, faster and more sensitive signals. You can only build so many LED blinkers before simple tools become more trouble than they're worth especially if there is a comparative offering that takes a little more learning because it's more advanced
Even more so if there's community stuff you can rip off / start from.
With respect to the no local storage speculation... if you look at the header bar of their home page screen representation you can see the save path is local
http://circuitmaker.com/#make_things_happen (http://circuitmaker.com/#make_things_happen)
To me that implies that it's base isn't cloud only but you never know what will happen between now and release.
Yeah it was covered but it's not sinking in :)With respect to the no local storage speculation... if you look at the header bar of their home page screen representation you can see the save path is local
http://circuitmaker.com/#make_things_happen (http://circuitmaker.com/#make_things_happen)
To me that implies that it's base isn't cloud only but you never know what will happen between now and release.
c4757p covered this a few days ago:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg515831/#msg515831 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg515831/#msg515831)
But we hope a local storage option is offered. ;D
I did test with an obscure mechanical part. (surface mount standoff) Octopart found it! Octopart is the primary search too for getting data
Sorry for the typos... I am posting on my phone while in the passenger seat coming back from MakerFaire.
8.). Schematic and library editing is exactly as what you would expect
5.). Library.... real supplier links must be used. No scrappy parts. Your parts that must have real manufacturing, supplier data. we discussed parts that are mechanical, etc. They are considering how to do this while ensuring good quality parts. No more generic '555s'. Published parts will have backend data.
8.). Schematic and library editing is exactly as what you would expectbut....
5.). Library.... real supplier links must be used. No scrappy parts. Your parts that must have real manufacturing, supplier data. we discussed parts that areWhat exactly does that mean ?
4.). Files are cached so you can work locally.
Can you not create your own arbitary random parts at all , or just not submit them to the communal library?
That's worrisome. :scared:Quote8.). Schematic and library editing is exactly as what you would expectbut....Quote5.). Library.... real supplier links must be used. No scrappy parts. Your parts that must have real manufacturing, supplier data. we discussed parts that areWhat exactly does that mean ?
Can you not create your own arbitary random parts at all , or just not submit them to the communal library?
Does that mean you can't create communal library parts for obsolete stuff like nixie tubes?
Are you forced to create schematic parts for every PCB part ?
I just tried to find out about altium, just spoke to a UK rep. Err WTF ? the "low end" version is a cloud based one you use online with all of your projects published in the community, So totally unsuitable for professional use although apparently you can buy add ons. A full license is £5000, and there are no cut down versions say for pin count. Great, waste of time. Well done altium you missed the target very widely. Guess I'm stuck with Dip Trace and hoping they learn to code properly some time soon.
I just tried to find out about altium, just spoke to a UK rep. Err WTF ? the "low end" version is a cloud based one you use online with all of your projects published in the community, So totally unsuitable for professional use although apparently you can buy add ons. A full license is £5000, and there are no cut down versions say for pin count. Great, waste of time. Well done altium you missed the target very widely. Guess I'm stuck with Dip Trace and hoping they learn to code properly some time soon.
They're not aiming it at professionals AT ALL. They're trying to stop hobbyists from getting so used to the steaming pile that is Eagle that they accept it and continue its use.
There's a lot of pages here now so I haven't seen if this has come up already, but why the hell wouldn't they bring out a version of the Altium Designer software without the FPGA nonsense, limited to say 4 or 6 layers, and maybe 30cm square size limit, and some advanced features missing, for something like £1000-£1500?
Surely there must be a fairly large amount of people who would go for that deal? I know a lot of small businesses would consider it a no brainer.
There is not enough money in the hobbyist market - the only way this can work is for it to be a stepping stone to more professional use via upgrades.I just tried to find out about altium, just spoke to a UK rep. Err WTF ? the "low end" version is a cloud based one you use online with all of your projects published in the community, So totally unsuitable for professional use although apparently you can buy add ons. A full license is £5000, and there are no cut down versions say for pin count. Great, waste of time. Well done altium you missed the target very widely. Guess I'm stuck with Dip Trace and hoping they learn to code properly some time soon.
They're not aiming it at professionals AT ALL. They're trying to stop hobbyists from getting so used to the steaming pile that is Eagle that they accept it and continue its use.
Yea, i'm one of them, but apparently altium have a long history of being thick and not changing any time soon. when diptrace does progress to a decent level altium will have no chance in the low end market
Waah! This unreleased free software probably doesn't do what I want.
Steady on, chap. Why not wait to see what it actually is before you get all pissed off about it?
I'm not saying that Altium won't do something daft, but seriously?
I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see the buy-in price for full Altium to drop a bit, though, as an enticement, perhaps with it being fully rental, and no 'let it stay frozen and unmaintained' option?
Interesting times.
Waah! This unreleased free software probably doesn't do what I want.
Steady on, chap. Why not wait to see what it actually is before you get all pissed off about it?
I'm not saying that Altium won't do something daft, but seriously?
I wouldn't be entirely surprised to see the buy-in price for full Altium to drop a bit, though, as an enticement, perhaps with it being fully rental, and no 'let it stay frozen and unmaintained' option?
Interesting times.
The person i spoke to was pretty clear that if i wanted to keep private business IP this was not the solution for me. He said that yes there are addon's but as far as he knew none will allow keeping designs private. So it's a total no show and not even useful for small businesses. He was clear that it's not for business by hobby projects. My impression is that they are trying to create the electronics version of facebook. No thank you!
I spoke with a rep at Maker Faire who told me that private designs would be an add-on but that they were not considering local file storage at this time.
If you're doing two designs a year, I'd say you may be better off subbing it out, than keeping on relearning tools and paying subscriptions...
Someone who bangs their heads against the tools all day, every day is going to be so much quicker. You'd still do the tricky bit (the actual designing of what you want to achieve - architecture, main component selection) in house, but the handle-turning of getting a schematic and PCB out the door - are you sure you want to dedicate that much time and effort?
Just a thought...
Yes, now that the cat is out of the bag, Altium have teamed up very closely with Octopart to integrate it into the parts and library backend.
It's part of research and development, not something we want to hand over to a sub contractor.
So does that mean our 'who is Altium buying?' musing was an elaborate bluff, and you had a strong suspicion as to a most-likely answer all along? ;)
What exactly does that mean ?
Can you not create your own arbitary random parts at all , or just not submit them to the communal library?
Does that mean you can't create communal library parts for obsolete stuff like nixie tubes?
Are you forced to create schematic parts for every PCB part ?
2.) When you create a part, you are creating an entity that is keyed to an specific manufacturer part number. (The correct way iMHO). So, you do not a create a 555 timer. You create a TLC555CDR with all the metadeta.
if your a business you have to be a little bit careful. I can't go to my boss and say that I'm going to start using a tool that will store stuff online where it can get hacked or that we spend thousands on software that we use to design 2 prototypes a year with. If altium want to ease people into using their software this is not the way to do it for existing businesses and the rep (who is a reseller so maybe not up to date) said that many people ask if there is a pin count limited version so clearly people are asking for one thing which other companies offer but they are not providing it. If it's an in or out for 5K I'm out. Diptrace got the right idea but their software is um... work in progress.
My other thought that if you are small business who needs to get things private, you need to come up with a workable business plan that can buy a real tool. Expecting a free tool for your business without having any restrictions is not reasonable.
Now, it looks to me that they are planning on options for closed design but right now it is looking like a community product to start with.
QuoteWhat exactly does that mean ?There _HAS_ to be a way to make generic parts, otherwise you'd need to have seperate part numbers for every value of resistor, capacitor etc. which would be utterly dumb
2.) When you create a part, you are creating an entity that is keyed to an specific manufacturer part number. (The correct way iMHO). So, you do not a create a 555 timer. You create a TLC555CDR with all the metadeta.
There _HAS_ to be a way to make generic parts, otherwise you'd need to have seperate part numbers for every value of resistor, capacitor etc. which would be utterly dumb
My other thought that if you are small business who needs to get things private,
There _HAS_ to be a way to make generic parts, otherwise you'd need to have seperate part numbers for every value of resistor, capacitor etc. which would be utterly dumb
Eagle is the hobbyist standard today because it was free for small simple stuff a decade ago.
Making a unique part number is the proper way to implement a library workflow.there is no such thing as "Proper" or "Correct". Only more or less appropriate to a particular set of requirements
Why would put a generic part? You have to know a value and part number to actually build something.In many cases you don't.
Yes, many.
Think about this.... Is there really a generic part?
When you create a BOM to get a board stuffed, You can't list a "10k"
Eagle is the hobbyist standard today because it was free for small simple stuff a decade ago.
This is the whole truth. The rest is commentary. (Now go read it.)
The whole thing will live or die on what lies on the upgrade slope between the free version and full AD.Eagle is the hobbyist standard today because it was free for small simple stuff a decade ago.
This is the whole truth. The rest is commentary. (Now go read it.)
Altium want it both ways, they want to be seen to be giving something away but are scared shitless of loosing a couple of cents profit. They want the big name but they won't pay for it. It's just PR wankery. I'm not buying it!
2.) When you create a part, you are creating an entity that is keyed to an specific manufacturer part number. (The correct way IMHO). So, you do not a create a 555 timer. You create a TLC555CDR with all the metadeta.
QuoteThere _HAS_ to be a way to make generic parts, otherwise you'd need to have seperate part numbers for every value of resistor, capacitor etc. which would be utterly dumb
Making a unique part number is the proper way to implement a library workflow.
Why would put a generic part? You have to know a value and part number to actually build something. You just do at the front end to make your BOM generation sane. If not, you are repeating a lot of work!
Think about this.... Is there really a generic part? When you create a BOM to get a board stuffed, You can't list a "10k"
If you actually get this made, you have a line item for an a Panasonic "ERJ-3EKF1002V" and possible substitutions. It really takes little extra work once you get a good workflow
Another reason came up recently, and puts yet another big heavy nail in the notion of prepared libraries...
Second source. You've designed the board, put together the BOM, and manufacturing says they can't get X. Or, they can only get so many of X, and the lead time is impossible.
The library-centric approach would require you to add those fields to the library part. But this is against the whole concept of a second source: what if that temporary source dries up? What if it's project specific, and you must call out substitutes on a need-to-know basis? What about when the substitutes aren't exact, so you're making a direct judgement about the suitability of a part for a project that may not be suitable in other projects? Putting that in the library could be disastrous!
Having a part in the library to begin with, you encounter the same pitfall, because the part originally selected for that library item will eventually disappear. You don't want to keep using the same part for five or ten or twenty years just because it's in your corporate libraries. That leads to all sorts of suboptimal decisions.[/quotes]
That's true, and it's why it's incumbent on the designer to work with purchasing during the design phase. And it helps if engineering is kept aware of which parts are going into NRND or last-time-buy. The purchasing staff should tell all of engineering, "hey, someone put an XXXX on a board, that's NRND, what do you want to do?" and then engineering works it out.
Yes, I know that purchasing departments can sometimes be opaque. |O
But yes, there's always the question about using something new because it's new, or using the old part because it's already in the library and we have a few reels of parts in the warehouse.
Second source. You've designed the board, put together the BOM, and manufacturing says they can't get X. Or, they can only get so many of X, and the lead time is impossible.
The library-centric approach would require you to add those fields to the library part. But this is against the whole concept of a second source: what if that temporary source dries up? What if it's project specific, and you must call out substitutes on a need-to-know basis? What about when the substitutes aren't exact, so you're making a direct judgement about the suitability of a part for a project that may not be suitable in other projects? Putting that in the library could be disastrous!
I find it useful in Eagle to place a resistor/capacitor in the schema and assign values in the schema without dealing with libraries.
No doubt it's imperfect, but it does work OK, and manufacturers cope well.Not insane but far from ideal.
So- in my opinion and experience, it's not insane to have a library part per BOM line
Same here..........I coudn't image having to go back to the library to place each and every different value of resistor.
Honestly, 10 seconds, and you've got a part from a controlled library on your sheet. There are annoyances with Altium, but this ain't one...10 seconds just to add one part...? That's just ages....
For me, it is more than value & package. Value, Package, tolerance, voltage rating, temperature coefficient, etc....Except a large proportion of passives will not need that level of detail, and where they do, that's when you specify a particular part, otherwise it's a jellybean.
I think some people seem to be missing the bigger picture here.....
This new Altium software isn't for you. So, don't complain that the software is so stupid duh and doesn't meet your needs when they've already CLEARLY STATED that the software IS NOT AIMED at you.
Last time I checked
Last time I checked
Where did you check? Which rumor mill?
Is there an announced feature set, yet? Nope.
So, anything we have is rumor or third-hand information, a.k.a. hearsay, and necessarily meaningless without confirmation.
Most hearsay is true but the person stating it is not under oath hence it's hearsay. That doesn't make it untrue which is what the real world cares about.
in case you don't understand
Inappropriate language removed
Maybe 'cos true makers do breadboards.
I think this has been entirely PR driven without actually looking at needs and what is already available.
Inappropriate language removed
This is why we can't have niceforumsthings.
If they make it like the supplier chain in newer Altiums, that works quite well. Imagine like pushing 1 button to order all the stuff at Farnell. On the other hand, Altium has generic resistor values, and you are probably allowed to change the parameters if you wish. So I dont see the reason why it wouldnt be possible what you are saying. Even though I use the library, and I have like 1000 different resistor in a library. It just works, and the 7 seconds you save putting down the resistor, you loose if you have to buy it.QuoteFor me, it is more than value & package. Value, Package, tolerance, voltage rating, temperature coefficient, etc....Except a large proportion of passives will not need that level of detail, and where they do, that's when you specify a particular part, otherwise it's a jellybean.
I hope I am wrong, but hobbyist use aside, the new "CircuitMaker" seems gimmicky.
Eagle seems to be more popular due to it's native cross platform ability also, which Altium have already stated (I believe Dave mentioned back along) that they are not that interested in.
I am not 100% sure if DT is native or emulated (WINE et al).
KiCAD is also of course X platform
i went from native eagle on linux to diptrace on wine on linux just to get beyond eagles size limitation. DT runs perfectly fine under wine on linux.
Since Altium/CircuitMaker will have 10x10cm limit, wonder how long it will take Eagle to change from that strange 8x10cm limit..
Since Altium/CircuitMaker will have 10x10cm limit, wonder how long it will take Eagle to change from that strange 8x10cm limit..
Probably easier and more cost effective to just buy the extra area.
If one is that keen on open source, to use open source at any cost, why would that person even bother to comment on this software? Why would it even appear on that person's radar? I'm not talking about you personally.
Releasing open source design files that require paid software to use it reduces the openness of the design.
KiCAD on the other hand seems to have been taken over by CERN and people can't build it properly for numerous reasons, and it is not being "actively" developed as such from what I can see, as it's open source it's community developed and unlimited.
Thinking about it, can we really compare DT, Eagle and now CM alongside KiCAD?
I mean, we can compare it in terms of features or lack thereof whatever your views. but Eagle / DT and CM (when it arrives) are actively developed, KiCAD on the other hand seems to have been taken over by CERN and people can't build it properly for numerous reasons, and it is not being "actively" developed as such from what I can see, as it's open source it's community developed and unlimited.
I am not 100% sure if DT is native or emulated (WINE et al).
I also wonder if it will be able to import libraries and/or designs from other packages (such as Eagle).
oh, yea diptrace, I think i made a mistake thereWhy did you cross out "autorouting"?
Board size limits are dumb.
More cats out of the bag. :)Board size limits are dumb.
Not when it costs <$50 to get more. App upgrade model of Circuit Maker is it's killer feature.
Board size limits are dumb.
Not when it costs <$50 to get more. App upgrade model of Circuit Maker is it's killer feature.
"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Since Altium/CircuitMaker will have 10x10cm limit, wonder how long it will take Eagle to change from that strange 8x10cm limit..
as used on early Acorn machines for the "double" Podules).Now there's a word you don't see everyday "Podules". Good old Acorn!
The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online
"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11111/111117347/3875270-6173624580-33u52.jpg)
"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.
Ahh, I spoke with a US colleague a few minutes ago & he was told at the CircuitMaker stand that you will be able to keep your design private "for a fee".
but will you get bombarded by trolls commenting on your not-yet-finished design...?"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.
This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.
but will you get bombarded by trolls commenting on your not-yet-finished design...?"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.
This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.
The strange/annoying thing about it is a half-Eurocard rack is usually mounted so the 10cm side is vertical (i.e. the board is 8cm wide/deep & 10cm high), while the Eagle Light restriction is a hard 10cm wide & 8cm high. It's like they decided on the size to be minimally useful, then decided to be dicks about it by rotating it 90 degrees...Since Altium/CircuitMaker will have 10x10cm limit, wonder how long it will take Eagle to change from that strange 8x10cm limit..
It's actually quite logical.
8x10cm is a half-Eurocard. 160x100 is a full Eurocard, and if that's not big enough there are bigger variants too (if memory serves, 160x233.5 is a "double" Eurocard, as used on early Acorn machines for the "double" Podules).
More here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(printed_circuit_board) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurocard_(printed_circuit_board))
(The more you know!TM)
This, particularly after the previous design (which I admittedly rushed) of my current project had too many stupid mistakes e.g. DC-coupled amp stage feeding a shunt/Pi LC filter, cocked-up voltage divider on an offset amp, etc."The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.
On a longer conversation with my colleague, he understood the operation of your files to be similar to Dropbox. You get access to a Public Box to store your files for free (where everyone else who is signed in can also view them), or you can store them in a private box for which you pay a fee.
janoc, Bassman59,
CERN seems to be contributing most of the newer features such as push and shove I believe?
I must admit I haven't downloaded from the BZR for a while, so things might have changed / merged or whatever, but from a pure downloader's perspective it is not actively *compiled*.
Which got me thinking that if KiCAD isn't going to have regular binary updates then it is more focused on the programmer / hobbyist rather than just the hobbyist.
janoc, Bassman59,
First of all, apologies, I should have clarified that the last "stable" release on the KiCAD download website is an older version.
CERN seems to be contributing most of the newer features such as push and shove I believe?
From the perspective of going into a website (such as DT, Eagle) and downloading the "latest" binary, KiCAD is not actively compiled, maybe that would be a better term or phrase. There may be very good reason for it not to be, but I remember back along when I saw some videos of KiCAD with some newer features and I couldn't for the life of me find the "download" for it, I thought it was someone's own personal version they had modified for themselves, until i found a link to a CERN branch and compiled that.
I must admit I haven't downloaded from the BZR for a while, so things might have changed / merged or whatever, but from a pure downloader's perspective it is not actively *compiled*.
For me "not being actively compiled" means that nobody is actually testing the code whether it even compiles and that is obviously not the case.
To drive home this point, if I get in the beta, I will go around and start turning people's board outlines into swastikas and tastefully drawing penises on schematics.
(So yes, I will be that troll.)
Sent from my Smartphone
On a longer conversation with my colleague, he understood the operation of your files to be similar to Dropbox. You get access to a Public Box to store your files for free (where everyone else who is signed in can also view them), or you can store them in a private box for which you pay a fee.
This is not how Dropbox works.
To drive home this point, if I get in the beta, I will go around and start turning people's board outlines into swastikas and tastefully drawing penises on schematics.
(So yes, I will be that troll.)
I hope that rumour is true!
I would like to promote the use of KiCAD as it is quite mature in itself, and despite people's negativity towards the libraries etc I can't really see a reason not to use it.
KiCAD will never, ever, hit the mainstream until someone takes it by the horns and takes responsibility to produce an "official" stable version available on an official central website that does not deal with the source etc.
Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing. It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.
- The free version will have a limit on how many projects you can keep "private".
Dave wants to be un-banned from their forum. :-DD
- NO, you will not be able to save files locally, they must be stored online in the cloud.
- The free version will have a limit on how many projects you can keep "private".
Basically means you cannot do anything non-opensourced with the free tool.
Of course I won't pretend to know you enough to say it is weird not to see you calling out this as bullshit but it is quite surprising to see you going so off-character without a monetary incentive, especially since on several occasions you have called "shitty" any software that needs to call home.
Also, reading/hearing you say "Community" so many times :palm: leads me to think that those marketing guys at Altium have done a really good job.
"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.
This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.
I hope that rumour is true!
I would like to promote the use of KiCAD as it is quite mature in itself, and despite people's negativity towards the libraries etc I can't really see a reason not to use it.
KiCAD will never, ever, hit the mainstream until someone takes it by the horns and takes responsibility to produce an "official" stable version available on an official central website that does not deal with the source etc.
A version so that when a user joins a forum and asks for support or wants to report a bug etc, they can say that they are using "Version X".
There are countless other examples of this, and KiCAD will be no exception.
Mark my words.
Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing. It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.
No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.
Of course I won't pretend to know you enough to say it is weird not to see you calling out this as bullshit but it is quite surprising to see you going so off-character without a monetary incentive, especially since on several occasions you have called "shitty" any software that needs to call home.
Also, reading/hearing you say "Community" so many times :palm: leads me to think that those marketing guys at Altium have done a really good job.
Dave wants to be un-banned from their forum. :-DD
And mine is 100 times bigger :P
Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing. It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.
No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.
Are you saying that Github repos aren't public by default? Are you saying that public stuff isn't a good thing?
I didn't say anything about working locally, so I'm not sure why you've chosen that point to disagree with.
KiCAD will never, ever, hit the mainstream until someone takes it by the horns and takes responsibility to produce an "official" stable version available on an official central website that does not deal with the source etc.
A version so that when a user joins a forum and asks for support or wants to report a bug etc, they can say that they are using "Version X".
There are countless other examples of this, and KiCAD will be no exception.
Mark my words
"The whole thing about this is that.... every design you create in the tool is going to be shared publicly, online"
Nooooooooope. I for one would like to keep at least the first few revisions private so I can fix everything I screwed up before someone else can see it.
This is exactly how Upverter works and it's not a big deal. In fact, it can be pretty nice WRT community collaboration and design reviews.
Sent from my Smartphone
Zap, I was talking about forking, as a reply to someone saying they would run around modifying everyone's board outlines into swastikas.Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing. It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.
No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.
Are you saying that Github repos aren't public by default? Are you saying that public stuff isn't a good thing?
I didn't say anything about working locally, so I'm not sure why you've chosen that point to disagree with.
Your files become public only when you decide to run git push. It's very different from the CM model so saying that they are the same is inaccurate.
QuoteKiCAD will never, ever, hit the mainstream until someone takes it by the horns and takes responsibility to produce an "official" stable version available on an official central website that does not deal with the source etc.
A version so that when a user joins a forum and asks for support or wants to report a bug etc, they can say that they are using "Version X".
There are countless other examples of this, and KiCAD will be no exception.
Mark my words
I was recently was contracted to design review a "product" that some guys were working (and I was billing at my normal rate). Design was in KiCad. I wanted PDFs of the schematic and artwork. The claim was that the build they were using wasn't generating a correct printout. I got the Gerbers but still had no way of effectively reviewing the schematic design.
Ok.... I'll just install KiCad. They said to go grab the "Latest". After installing, the files didn't open. The PCB tool didn't like something about a few of the lines.
Turns out that they were using build XXXXX with patch ZZZZZZZ. I was using BUILD XXXXX-1.
Took me 3 hours to get a build after tracking down dependencies and fighting with make errors.
I did finish the review. They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.
Moral of the Story. KiCad needs to also learn about version controlling interfaces and formats. Having the most random build of the day means that no one can effectively share files. If your job is to to PCB design, you really shouldn't have to be worrying about changing a build macro and a 3 hour compile process to open a file. That is just dumb.
This is something that all the other tools have figured out.
I tried to make a point to them that it is OK to spend some money on a tool. It is called "Opportunity Cost".
They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.
They ended up paying money for KiCad whether they intended to or not.
Perfect example. Thank you.
I have a very similar story about OpenOffice. That bit of software cost a former employer FAR more money than MS licenses would have cost them.
Of course. I'd love to see some good numbers for Kicad and open office usage. I know a LOT of people who are former open office users, and I know zero current users.
I don't know a single Kicad user outside this forum.
maybe in the (very) long term, but most people just want to make stuff, and CM would appear to have the edge on that aspect for the moment at least.
Between Kicad and CM for the hobbyist market I see more potential in Kicad. Open source, cross platform, developers' interests aligned with users' interests.
though not good it you designed it on Linux and the reviewer is using Windows for example.
Of course. I'd love to see some good numbers for Kicad and open office usage. I know a LOT of people who are former open office users, and I know zero current users.
I don't know a single Kicad user outside this forum.
Especially folks that complain about things that are mostly a matter of taste/preference, like user interface.
The fact is that despite all these issues it is being used,
Right on the money.Especially folks that complain about things that are mostly a matter of taste/preference, like user interface.
No, it is not a matter of taste. Usability is a well researched topic and linked to productivity. So are particular areas of usability, like consistency within an application and between applications.
"it is a matter of taste" is a common excuse among programmers who give a fuck about good usability.QuoteThe fact is that despite all these issues it is being used,
That only shows how flexible users are, how willing they are to compromise and how well they can be trained to ignore glaring issues, all while clicking themselves silly. And just because you are willing to compromise heavily doesn't mean everyone else must. There is no law people must like KiCad and stop talking about it just because it is free.
Zap, I was talking about forking, as a reply to someone saying they would run around modifying everyone's board outlines into swastikas.Also, I think that my designs are public by default is a good thing. It's the same on GitHub and it's a good thing there, too.
No, this is not how github works, you can work for months locally with full version control capabilities without pushing up to the cloud.
Are you saying that Github repos aren't public by default? Are you saying that public stuff isn't a good thing?
I didn't say anything about working locally, so I'm not sure why you've chosen that point to disagree with.
Your files become public only when you decide to run git push. It's very different from the CM model so saying that they are the same is inaccurate.
I order for this person to do that, they would need write access to everyone else's files.
I said something like "it will probably be like Github in that you fork a design and modify your copy."
Here comes Zapta: "nuh-uh! Git is local until you push!"
Me: "WTF?"
Hey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?
When I refer to “private projects”, I’m talking about CircuitMaker projects that are only visible to you and not shared publicly. As a couple other people on this thread have pointed out, the free version of CircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community. The limitations in the free version of CircuitMaker will still let you design fairly sizable projects.
The purchased upgrades in CircuitMaker will let you buy only the features you need (such as more private projects), without forcing you to spend money on parts of the tool you may not need right at the moment. This means that upgrades are cheap and give you only the functionality you need, when you need it.
Dave wants to be un-banned from their forum. :-DD
Even if they unbanned me, I wouldn't use it, it sucks.
And mine is 100 times bigger :P
In fact, forget the Forum!
I got the (KiCAD generated) Gerbers but still had no way of effectively reviewing the schematic design.
I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....QuoteHey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?
I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....QuoteHey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?
Just as I reported here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg518706/#msg518706 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/free-altium-is-coming/msg518706/#msg518706)
Plus: Your design is considered "finished" as soon as you choose to generate the gerbers. You are then given the choice to pay to keep your design private or to let your design go public.
I couldn't help but to notice that Altium "staff" responded to the thread on HAD, and a few other blogs....
....But they won't touch Dave's forum with a 10 foot poll! :scared:QuoteHey guys, this is Max from Altium, and I just wanted to clear up something about CircuitMaker that may not have totally come through here. While the free version will only allow you to keep your in-progress project private, part of the upgrade model will let you purchase more private projects if you need them. They will still be stored online, but will not be visible to any other CircuitMaker users.?
CircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community.
..per account presumably, so probably work-aroundable but a bit of a pain.QuoteCircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community.
So one can work on only one project at the time.. that would not work very good..
..per account presumably, so probably work-aroundable but a bit of a pain.QuoteCircuitMaker will allow you to keep one project private (so you don’t have to share a half-finished design), and the rest are visible to everyone else in the community.
So one can work on only one project at the time.. that would not work very good..
I wonder how it handles loading an old design for reference while you're working on a new one.
I don't understand AT ALL why you guys are shying away from showing unfinished designs.
I want EVERYONE to see my stuff before it's done, because after it's done changes are a lot harder to make.
Who cares if I make a silly mistake in the beginning? I want to know then, not later.
Every designer has mistakes. Every one of us. Everyone. Showing your design before its done is like asking, or offering, proofreaders to look at your stuff and offer input.
I would much rather have help when the concrete is wet than after I'm done and it's difficult to change.
There's another issue with that cloud storage approach. I assume that you can't export your project locally either. You'll be locked in Altium's cloud.
Said it before and want to say it again: once you put your data on the cloud it is not yours anymore. There is a reason Altium wants you to work online, right?
Right?
Their interest is not user happiness.
I also see the other, because here comes a free Altium that people have been wishing for, for years and years.
When I wrote to Altium a few years back asking if they were planning a free version, I outlined the fact that we wanted something that competes with the likes of Eagle, be it size limited or pin limited, remove the FPGA stuff and leave the rest of the "useful" stuff in, export to Gerber, open and print and save (if inside the limits) standard Altium files.
Eagle model for the free version is "if your design is small enough then you get all the features for free". With CM is more like "if your design is small enough then you get only some of the key features for free because we want to make you miserable enough to pay"
These are very different attitudes.
Eagle model for the free version is "if your design is small enough then you get all the features for free"
No one is gonna make you use CircuitMaker.
I'm gonna give it a fair shake, and if I like it, I'll use it. If I don't, I won't.
I worry more about open source projects who shutdown because of political disagreements.
I worry more about open source projects who shutdown because of political disagreements.
A project shutting down doesn't disable the tool and delete all the work you ever did with it which is what Altium's cloud only storage allows.
If Altium shut down their cloud CircuitMaker becomes a waste of disk space and gerbers and prints are all you have left from whatever work you did on it.
It probably won't happen but where is the upside in taking that risk?
I worry more about open source projects who shutdown because of political disagreements.
A project shutting down doesn't disable the tool and delete all the work you ever did with it which is what Altium's cloud only storage allows.
If Altium shut down their cloud CircuitMaker becomes a waste of disk space and gerbers and prints are all you have left from whatever work you did on it.
It probably won't happen but where is the upside in taking that risk?
We don't know CircuitMaker's failure modes. The risk could be immense, and it could be purely imaginary.
Also consider this. Do you really design "offline?"
It would be exceedingly odd if Altium couldn't import circuitmaker stuff...
I think open source hobbyists won't worry about cloud storage, true.Well that's not really the issue is it? I think someone else here stated it, what happens when someone buys them? What happens when some Altium Board Guy gets another brainfart and decides to scrap CircuitMaker because he realizes he doesn't give a shit about the OSH community after all? Altium Board Guys are well known for their brain farts, aren't they?
I don't see Altium folding anytime soon. My employer alone buys enough TASKING licenses to keep Altium afloat for decades.
I guess I get why some people are really put off by that prospect of "cloud-only" and of course, why CircuitMaker doesn't appeal to the small business owner or something... but I also think that unless you're running business-grade server infrastructure yourself the argument of data security is actually rather insignificant.
And the argument that the "forced-open" will cost the hobbyist his chance at making a little money aside from his Kits or whatever is rather ridiculous too - if you want to sell your little hobbyist kit most people would publish their schematics and artworks anyway, or is that a misconception?
So - I don't know I think they're getting bashed for their cloud thing because people aren't used to it and maybe people will be far more accepting once they have seen it(assuming, of course, it's actually well implemented!). Just because it's not ideal, doesn't mean it's a dealbreaker...
I don't understand AT ALL why you guys are shying away from showing unfinished designs.
I want EVERYONE to see my stuff before it's done, because after it's done changes are a lot harder to make.
Who cares if I make a silly mistake in the beginning? I want to know then, not later.
Every designer has mistakes. Every one of us. Everyone. Showing your design before its done is like asking, or offering, proofreaders to look at your stuff and offer input.
I would much rather have help when the concrete is wet than after I'm done and it's difficult to change.
I come back to the statement Dave Jones made at the outset. People commit to products they are invested in, for me that is Diptrace. I purchased a "Starter" License in April and upgraded to a "Lite" License in July.
But that does not change the fact that I will be sinking my money into Diptrace and a functioning Autorouter Program.
I harbor no ill will towards Altium and wish them well with the product but I will be pulling for Diptrace in the hopes that they come up with a functioning Autorouter and clean up the lose ends.
The question is, can it be marked as work in progress?, does the tool support more than one unfinished project?
It doesn't have to be private to be marked as Work in Progress. I think that, if Dave is right and Altium are actually trying to listen to the community, there's a big chance they will make some kind of system to "cathegorize" the development state of your board, like marking it as WiP, Finished and Locked(so no more comments on "you could change that resistor value"), "Requesting Feedback", ... because that's something loads of people are concerned about and will cost Altium absolutely nothing. And I choose to believe that the community can be reasonably sensible to designs that are clearly marked as "not finished, not usable, in development", so you don't get a ton of comments like "your design is shit and I had it made and it didn't work...".The question is, can it be marked as work in progress?, does the tool support more than one unfinished project?
One free private project per account. If you want more, set up more accounts or pay for private designs.
And the argument that the "forced-open" will cost the hobbyist his chance at making a little money aside from his Kits or whatever is rather ridiculous tooIf you've done any OH projects you should of known that the moment there is a public (OH) project that has some market value the Chinese produce clones before you have the test prototypes assembled. Even if you want your project to be OH the exact timing of the release should be on your hands. This process flow will be Chinese delight for what I can see. Think of it reasonably, without insulting people: You design your board and you produce your gerbers to manufacture some prototypes to test, characterize etc. You haven't produced any boards to sell yet but your schematics and board files are already online. Do you see a problem with that or not?
We all agree that this software is not what Sparkfun or Adafruit would use for design. The only people who think this software is aimed any ANYTHING other than a hobbyist think so only because they haven't read what is available on this software.
Do you know Gerry Sweeney? He created a very nice and elegant decade substitution box for hobbyists (search for "Seven Decade Programmable Resistor" on ebay). Well, he sells his boards for 15,3Euros. The Chinese clones start at 5,50Euros with free shipping. And again, the Chinese will copy a design if it has market value no matter what. But would you give them the lead right from the start?
And the argument that the "forced-open" will cost the hobbyist his chance at making a little money aside from his Kits or whatever is rather ridiculous tooIf you've done any OH projects you should of known that the moment there is a public (OH) project that has some market value the Chinese produce clones before you have the test prototypes assembled. Even if you want your project to be OH the exact timing of the release should be on your hands. This process flow will be Chinese delight for what I can see. Think of it reasonably, without insulting people: You design your board and you produce your gerbers to manufacture some prototypes to test, characterize etc. You haven't produced any boards to sell yet but your schematics and board files are already online. Do you see a problem with that or not?
Do you know Gerry Sweeney? He created a very nice and elegant decade substitution box for hobbyists (search for "Seven Decade Programmable Resistor" on ebay). Well, he sells his boards for 15,3Euros. The Chinese clones start at 5,50Euros with free shipping. And again, the Chinese will copy a design if it has market value no matter what. But would you give them the lead right from the start?
The blog is updated with some more information about where things are goingNice. Interesting bit: "At the time of deciding to share or release a public project, you’ll be required select an appropriate open-source license and the project becomes public."
http://blog.circuitmaker.com/Blogs/circuitmaker-community-09-30-14 (http://blog.circuitmaker.com/Blogs/circuitmaker-community-09-30-14)
When that happens you'll get a damn good idea of how it might feel emotionally to be raped. And if you think that won't happen on a grand scale you're delusional.
Again, you wouldn't use this software for that, would you?
THIS IS SOFTWARE FOR HOBBYISTS.
The blog is updated with some more information about where things are going
And that is the idiocy of it for Altium. Their 2014 investors presentation document shows Altium in the middle of an 'end' triangle with arrows labelled expansion pointing upwards and downwards. They say they are going to expanding into the high end (with new features in the full package) and towards the low end.
Ridiculous? People get intellectual property ripped off all the time! It's not just from China. If circuit maker is mandating you open source all your designs you're handing your ideas to an unscrupulous business on a silver platter. The court dockets are loaded down with companies locking horns over intellectual property. If a business will have a go at another million dollar business, given the opportunity they'll tear some poor maker with no capital to defend themselves a new ass. The problem with the average maker is that many engineering types aren't too business savvy so they probably wouldn't even realize they're sitting on a million dollars worth of IP.
Ridiculous? People get intellectual property ripped off all the time! It's not just from China. If circuit maker is mandating you open source all your designs you're handing your ideas to an unscrupulous business on a silver platter.
The blog is updated with some more information about where things are going
http://blog.circuitmaker.com/Blogs/circuitmaker-community-09-30-14 (http://blog.circuitmaker.com/Blogs/circuitmaker-community-09-30-14)
Will schools love CM?Only if they provide some good training materials, sample projects etc.
The question is, can it be marked as work in progress?, does the tool support more than one unfinished project?
One free private project per account. If you want more, set up more accounts or pay for private designs.
It doesn't have to be private to be marked as Work in Progress. I think that, if Dave is right and Altium are actually trying to listen to the community, there's a big chance they will make some kind of system to "cathegorize" the development state of your board, like marking it as WiP, Finished and Locked(so no more comments on "you could change that resistor value"), "Requesting Feedback", ... because that's something loads of people are concerned about and will cost Altium absolutely nothing. And I choose to believe that the community can be reasonably sensible to designs that are clearly marked as "not finished, not usable, in development", so you don't get a ton of comments like "your design is shit and I had it made and it didn't work...".The question is, can it be marked as work in progress?, does the tool support more than one unfinished project?
One free private project per account. If you want more, set up more accounts or pay for private designs.
‘Work in progress’ projects will not be able to generate output files for production. In fact the process of ‘releasing’ a design generates the production files at the same time.That's just dumb. It's entirely likely you may want to make changes after looking at the gerbers.
Quote‘Work in progress’ projects will not be able to generate output files for production. In fact the process of ‘releasing’ a design generates the production files at the same time.That's just dumb. It's entirely likely you may want to make changes after looking at the gerbers.
And that is the idiocy of it for Altium. Their 2014 investors presentation document shows Altium in the middle of an 'end' triangle with arrows labelled expansion pointing upwards and downwards. They say they are going to expanding into the high end (with new features in the full package) and towards the low end.
CircuitMaker with it's stupid cloud only vault storage doesn't expand towards the low end, it targets a thin strip right at the bottom and pretty much guarantees no one above that strip will touch it.
I have no interest in CircuitMaker. I wouldn't touch it, but, I am pissed off about the possibility of subscription money I pay them being used to fund CircuitMaker instead of improving the product I do use.
Altium seem to be so desperate to get someone using their vault technology that they are specifically targeting people who are not going to create anything of value and giving it to them for nothing with a cut down version of AD thrown in.
They seem to have picked up since the change of CEO.
Moved Rnd out of China, share price up, actually implement a strategy to get people using their tools.
I think they might be doing ok.
Some here seem to think that Altium owes them something (with CircuitMaker) ... That doesn't compute for me.
Some here seem to think that Altium owes them something (with CircuitMaker) ... That doesn't compute for me.
Fully agree with you.
The only thing Altium owes its AD customers is to fix the bugs faster & to be truthful about when (or if) the bugs have been fixed.
I concur. Altium like any other company is about 1 thing, making money.
I concur. Altium like any other company is about 1 thing, making money.
Historically Altium has been much better at loosing investor's money by spending large amounts of it developing things no one wants to buy. After the recent board shake up they are supposed to be getting better, the current CircuitMaker proposal says otherwise.
Lots of companies lose money on stupid efforts that everyone but the board saw coming. Seems unfair to single out any one company for that mistake.
Well, if everyone else saw it coming but the Altium board did not, it just goes to show that the Altium board is clearly incompetent.
Well, if everyone else saw it coming but the Altium board did not, it just goes to show that the Altium board is clearly incompetent.
We all thought things would get better after they dumped founding CEO Nick Martin ............. but little seems to have changed since his forced departure.
A stripped down AD14 without the bloat (FPGA etc) ..
Altium should get their collectives heads out of the Cloud and wake up to the fact that the people that will use this software are not into collaborative efforts.
There may be a justification for a cut-down AD, but that's more or less irrelevant to CM, isn't it?
Yeah, I think they've chosen quite sensibly,
I just finished watching a nauseating youtube video of Max discussing CircuitMaker complete with Google Speak.
Altium should get their collectives heads out of the Cloud and wake up to the fact that the people that will use this software are not into collaborative efforts.
Let me guess, you hate Arduino too and anyone who uses them, right?
What does Microchip selling PIC chips have to do with Arduino?
Yes, I pay for a Pro Upverter account.
The board kicked his ass to the curb, didn't they?
Sounds like they got tired of him.
Well, Linear Tech has started giving Arduino based examples in their data sheets and a lot of their dev boards are Arduino shields, so, uh...Really ? Linear tech ? My , how deep they have fallen ...
I guess what I'm trying to say is you don't know what you're talking about. (I.e. Stop spouting shit from *your* pimpled ass.)
;)
Sent from my Smartphone
I guess what I'm trying to say is you don't know what you're talking about. (I.e. Stop spouting shit from *your* pimpled ass.)
Microchip sell about 3.2 million microprocessors a day. Who do you think is buying them and who designed the circuits and boards they go in?
You are mixing number of unit produced with number of designs. A mass produced design needs one schematic and so is a one-of at home hack. The number of chips sold has nothing to do with potential number of CM users.
you gotta be kidding, right? :-DD :-DD :-DD
Yes, I pay for a Pro Upverter account. Clients love being able to actively collaborate on their designs. They can upload their schematic from Eagle and participate in the design review. For smaller projects I'll do the entire layout in Upverter, otherwise I use DipTrace and export/import my changes.
true
Makers and the OSHW 'movement' seem to be so wrapped up in their little world tweeting, facebooking, and collaborating with each other that few have any concept of the global electronics industry and what a tiny tiny proportion of it they are. This gross over-representation on the interwebs and new media helps to fool themselves and I suspect others. Look at Element14 who bought eagle, sponsor Ben Hecks etc and created the useless Element14 community where collaboration mostly consists of idiots bugging real EEs who are obliged or paid to participate there.
In the real world EEs are simply not allowed reveal designs to people outside their organisation which severely limits the usefulness of and need for collaboration features in design tools.
you gotta be kidding, right? :-DD :-DD
Yes, I pay for a Pro Upverter account. Clients love being able to actively collaborate on their designs. They can upload their schematic from Eagle and participate in the design review. For smaller projects I'll do the entire layout in Upverter, otherwise I use DipTrace and export/import my changes.
What this so called OSH community members talking so passionately of "collaboration" fail to remember is that most (if not all) of the designs out there, that people like to call OSH, were actually made by a single individual working on his own time with little regard to what other people has to say and only release the design when it is done. That is true even in the OSS movement. Trying to do otherwise is stupid and a total waste of time.
Even after the design is made public most won't pay much attention to the "improvements" the "community" has to offer not to mention that what most in the "community" mean by collaboration is actually limited to downloading/building the designs someone else made or bitching others to change the design.
There is a huge market there and I will tap it if it puts food on the table.
I'm sure his use of upverter is valid.
Here's something that I think escapes us all from time to time: each of us does things differently, and each of our solutions is valid for the problem presented us. ESPECIALLY SO if it pays.
So who gives a rats ass if Arduino production is dwarfed by microchip? Arduino IS A VALID SOLUTION just the same as pic. For the same problem? I don't know and I don't care. They're freaking valid.
So drop the crap about upverter. For him it works. For you, it might not. Why the hell does anyone care if upverter is used? Why are any of you even bringing it up, like its a sign of failure?
Some of the crap that goes on in here makes me ashamed to say I'm a member of this forum.
Some of the crap that goes on in here makes me ashamed to say I'm a member of this forum.
So who gives a rats ass if Arduino production is dwarfed by microchip?
So drop the crap about upverter. For him it works. For you, it might not. Why the hell does anyone care if upverter is used? Why are any of you even bringing it up, like its a sign of failure?
Because it is very similar to what Altium are proposing for CM and will target the same type of customer. Who it does and doesn't work for is very relevant to this thread.
Browser-based. HTML5.
Go try it. It isn't bad.
No way to know. It's all guessing. | >:D Contraindication | I SERIOUSLY doubt that any immediate changes will be seen in Eagle. |
... Is there any possibility that any of them are from Altium? If Altium ever cared about Dave's rants, they might be stalking on this forum?
By the way I SERIOUSLY doubt that any immediate changes will be seen in Eagle. Dominant market share arrogance will prevent Cadsoft/Element14/Newark from viewing CircuitMaker as a threat for a long while after it becomes one, if it does become one.
Your question makes it appear like you are a journalist.
As an Eagle user (paid) I had posted on their forums early on making them aware of this thread and what Altium was up to.....and urging them to stride forward with their product rather than the wee tweaks we have seen over the past couple of years and that if Altium get it right then IMO the OSH community could make a shift.............
The reply from them was that they weren't waiting for version 8 to do so..................although I don't think the Cadsoft guy I did dialogue with knew anything about anything really.
As an Eagle user (paid) I had posted on their forums early on making them aware of this thread and what Altium was up to.....and urging them to stride forward with their product.
... The more I think about CM the more I like it.
OK good point.
I should clarify: based on my imagination, CM seems pretty nice.
Well, from what Dave was saying on the last mailbag, he has seen it and likes the interface, but has concerns over the cloud "wank", and as he has said, it's not Altum, if you go with the mindset that it is a different product then you might be able to forgive the cloud, I did say *might*!
But I guess Altium must at least read some of the comments as they sent Dave some stuff, they might not like what they read though as they sent him a large T-shirt! :-DD
It seems a touch pointless to me to have an offline tool that can only save online.
Tick Tock Tick Tock
I still say they are totally blowing it by getting all this hype, coming up with the flashy website, having everyone sign up, and then ZERO COMMUNICATIONS or a peep out of them for weeks and weeks.
Cloud based EDA. Having problems for a few days now due to integration with the Autodesk ID system.
Cloud based EDA. Having problems for a few days now due to integration with the Autodesk ID system.
That's not a fault of it being web based, that's an integration failure, which is nearly always going to be human error at some point. Tinkercad works well, when they don't fuck it up.
point taken, though, definitely.
I agree that many people hate ribbon menus. But many people also love them. DEX's riibbon menus are context sensitive. But here's what great for everbody; switch between ribbon menu and classic drop down menu in the same app. DEX allows you to switch back and forth between menus. You can also shrink the ribbon menu so it behaves a a popdown ribbon menu. Choices, choices...and ye all must be loving AutoTRAX DEX by that one guy, he got it much earlier than this multi million company. one issue i have with ribbon is they took several pixels more at the top compared to classic 16 pixels toolbuttons. and too much of it wont help, finding one particular button in the ribbon is like finding needle in a plate full of spaggethy. i dont tend to click ribbon or button now and then while working, i prefer shortcut keys.I like the ribbon, also.Agreed. What's the problem? I like it.Ribbon!? :palm: |O....So?, it's a good way of grouping functionality
Is this like a Comic Sans hatred thing? :D
Agreed.
OpenSCAD is pretty epic. I use it a lot. Look at FreeCAD too, it is similar.ProgrammaticallyParametrically defined 3D modeling.
Sooooo they abandoned Circuit Maker? ???The fact that I've entered my email adress on their website and they did not send me an email so far... As Dave would say: "You FAIL at the internet"
I have used Freecad. (I have solidworks at my Day job as a reference).
Freecad has some very quirky UI "features" that can make it difficult to use. But it is Free... and they believe in releasing know working binaries.
Also, they do respond to bug posts. I found a crash that they responded to within a few days.
For home stuff, I primarily use it for coloring step models to be used with Altium
On that's awesome.
Can you point to a tutorial for doing that? Want to publish one?
Thanks!
Sooooo they abandoned Circuit Maker? ???The fact that I've entered my email adress on their website and they did not send me an email so far... As Dave would say: "You FAIL at the internet"
It's always been known that it was a "free to use, pay to be useful" style of app.
I assume you have the beta (closed) version and have a spec. of what's for free and checked it out. Is that correct? Perhaps you could tell us all.
4-layer is a paid optionI hope not, 4 layers is the new 2 layers IMO and I'm increasingly looking at 6.
Not if having all features means the user is paying for stuff they don't need.
Feature Tiers
CircuitMaker is free to start, with the option to selectively upgrade features if you need them. What is the optimal level for these upgrade tiers? What features do we need to adjust to make these levels work best? Work best for who? For customer just all features works best.
Why can't they charge just one price instead of trying to con people?Because that would make it unaffordable for some users. They have to make a living out of this.
Not if having all features means the user is paying for stuff they don't need.
Feature Tiers
CircuitMaker is free to start, with the option to selectively upgrade features if you need them. What is the optimal level for these upgrade tiers? What features do we need to adjust to make these levels work best? Work best for who? For customer just all features works best.QuoteWhy can't they charge just one price instead of trying to con people?Because that would make it unaffordable for some users. They have to make a living out of this.
they also announced circuitstudio.
my gut says
circuitmaker : free - cloud storage
circuitstudio : paid in tiers : local storage.
Why can't they charge just one price instead of trying to con people?
in many cases they even contain the same die .... just with a couple of fuses blown... with masksets costing millions of dollars it is cheaper doing one maskset and blowing fuses. silicon area is cheaper than masksets.QuoteWhy can't they charge just one price instead of trying to con people?
That is like saying "Why can't a chip maker make only one version of a chip in one package for one price?"
It's is because I may not need the version with ethernet, USB and SD card in a 256 pin BGA. I really only need the 64-QFP version with 1/2 the memory and 1 serial interface.
From the email the other day, this bit: "Nearly 12,000 makers, hobbyists and DIYers have shown their support..." raised a wry smile here.
I'm presumably one of those 12,000, but while I've expressed interest, I'm not calling that "support" until I've decided whether or not this thing is even going to be useful for my hobbyist needs.
This is not like software and the comparison is not like for like.QuoteWhy can't they charge just one price instead of trying to con people?
That is like saying "Why can't a chip maker make only one version of a chip in one package for one price?"
This is not like software and the comparison is not like for like.
To be honest, your business skills need refinement if you cannot figure out a multi-tiered approach to sales and marketing.
Expecting a large company with $80M/year in revenue to give away their entire product for free is not reasonable.
Life is much different when you have to meet payroll and expenses compared running a part-time hobby shop.
Perhaps an apology is in order. I suggest you try AutoTRAX with an open mind and you will realize your error.
any windows program can run under vmware/parallels.
I would not call that running on Mac OSX . Its not a native OSX application with OSX integration.
Yeah running in VMWare is not running on OS X. I give the DipTrace guys a pass for putting out a Wine Bottled OS X app, at least I don't have to *start an entirely different fucking operating system* just to work on a board. Plus the next version is going to be native now that they're on the new Delphi compiler.PCB design on an iPad :-DD
Remember, Macs are huge in schools, colleges and with the Maker crowd, not to mention software guys. Having a native Mac version also gives you access to the iPad market which is enormous. Imagine being able to seemlessly switch from working on a board at your Mac to your iPad on the train. For things like drawing a schematic or even routing a board, a touch interface could be amazing if done right.
PC only software designers are like people still building carriages when the Model-T had been out for years.
Sent from my Smartphone
any windows program can run under vmware/parallels.
I would not call that running on Mac OSX . Its not a native OSX application with OSX integration.
I could make a free version of AutoTRAX available for non-commercial purposes. However I would have to make it without any other limits. Any thought?
Nothing I can do about the MAC native code. :(
P.S. I am working on a new shape base router for AutoTRAX. I have 2 versions, one in C#, .NET and the other in Visual Studio C##/11 with QT 5. Amazingly the C# version is 2% faster. :-//
It makes re-porting to QT/C++/11 not as attractive. Over the years I have written over 1 million line of C++ and over 500K lines of C# so I am efficient at both.
I don't use Pascal (e.g. Delphi )
Java would be dog slow.
If you've written it in .NET you could maybe compile for OS X/Linux/BSD with Mono.
Java would be dog slow.
Make the full version free without caveat. Those who want to support it can and will. Those who cannot afford will do so latet add their business grows. Those who are just hobbies shouldn't have to pay and those who are psychopathic were always going to pirate it anyway.
Java would be dog slow.
Not so much, these days. In fact, Java hasn't been really slow since Java 1.3, and that was a good while ago.
I'm assuming you're speaking of run speed, and not boot speed. C# has the MS blessing of effectively precompiling every .net EXE and DLL in the background from bytecode into machine code and caching the machine code with a windows service, so it FEELS faster when you launch a C# app vs. a Java app. Java doesn't do this and accordingly it takes more time for a Java app to start. Unless Oracle want to design and implement a service to do this on major platforms, Java will never have great startup speed.
Performance after startup is done.. that's really good. Like, really good.
Java will always have a place, I think. You're right that its place as a consumer, end-user required install is fading. C# has so many excellent language features that, everything else being equal, it makes no sense to write Java apps for the desktop.
You missed the recent news about. Net.
You missed the recent news about. Net.
How can anyone miss that?
http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/20/one-week-of-open-source.aspx (http://blogs.msdn.com/b/dotnet/archive/2014/11/20/one-week-of-open-source.aspx)
Maybe is because they announced also free Visual Studio 2013 community up to 5 seats for small companies/individuals or small groups, and you can actually sell the code you produce provided you are within $1 million revenue or something like that.
Edit: post with more details about VS 2013 community
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/visual-studio-community-2013-a-full-featured-ide-free/msg550822/#msg550822 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/visual-studio-community-2013-a-full-featured-ide-free/msg550822/#msg550822)
True, a lot has changed since Visual Studio 6.0
Edit: and if you know how, you can put your own custom tool chains
Suit yourself on both counts (well on three counts if you include AutoTRAX).
As for Microsoft API [...] it's limited to their [proprietary] OS so no much incentive for me.
That's fine, myself I'm happy with an OS that supports them all which I paid $139.80 including taxes and I'm using it exclusively for electronics.
The Microsoft APIs of 15 years ago and the Microsoft APIs of today are as different as red and green.
With full respect to you, I don't consider any 15 year old opinion on development to be valid. SO MUCH has changed. The .NET APIs aren't perfect, but they are SO FAR beyond what MS had available in 1999.
Honestly. Do yourself some credit and give .net an honest try.
Given that this is a Microsoft that open sourced .net, and just released a free version of visual studio specifically for nonprofit stuff, I wouldn't be surprised if a Linux or Mac version of VS is on its way.
Things have changed.
Edit: grammar.
Any news regarding Altium Circuit Maker? No much buzz recently.
Any news regarding Altium Circuit Maker? No much buzz recently.
So much for them telling us "later this(2014)".
I bet we never ever see this thing released.
Well you are soon to be gratified. :-+
I had this from Daniel Fernsebner.
Director of Global Services & Developer Network
Closed beta has begun with the intent to release the product in January.
Kind regards,
Dan
So the Beta is just December?
Any news regarding Altium Circuit Maker? No much buzz recently.
When Dave finally hires an intern next year, he’ll have to decide which PCB package he’ll purchase/use with them. Altium is planning to release a mid range version called CircuitStudio (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/altium/altium-circuit-studio/) alongside CircuitMaker.
In the meantime, KiCad's development team has been highly active, making it more and more reliable. I have heard it is now stable on MacOSX.
Ah well. One day... :'(In the meantime, KiCad's development team has been highly active, making it more and more reliable. I have heard it is now stable on MacOSX.
Still no binary... I don't hold my breath anymore.
i'll wait for free altium. judging by the demo layouts on Autotrax website it's pretty crummy >:)
(couldn't resist)
Ah well. One day... :'(In the meantime, KiCad's development team has been highly active, making it more and more reliable. I have heard it is now stable on MacOSX.
Still no binary... I don't hold my breath anymore.
Anyway Free AutoTRAX is here, so no need to wait.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-unlimited-version-of-autotrax-pcb-design-software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-unlimited-version-of-autotrax-pcb-design-software) :)
i'll wait for free altium. judging by the demo layouts on Autotrax website it's pretty crummy >:)
(couldn't resist)
Anyway Free AutoTRAX is here, so no need to wait.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-unlimited-version-of-autotrax-pcb-design-software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-unlimited-version-of-autotrax-pcb-design-software) :)
Ah well. One day... :'(In the meantime, KiCad's development team has been highly active, making it more and more reliable. I have heard it is now stable on MacOSX.
Still no binary... I don't hold my breath anymore.
Anyway Free AutoTRAX is here, so no need to wait.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-unlimited-version-of-autotrax-pcb-design-software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/free-unlimited-version-of-autotrax-pcb-design-software) :)
Doesn't help here, I am a Mac OSX user. ;-)
Any chance of supporting also Mac OSX? I think it's an important feature for tools for the OSH community (see Eagle, DipTrace, Kicad (almost)).
i'll wait for free altium. judging by the demo layouts on Autotrax website it's pretty crummy >:)
(couldn't resist)
amazing indeed, but sadly went the wrong direction, what a waste. have you tried the simple demo pcb editing? a good way to make a spaghetty mess in seconds, no 45 deg trace snap, just arbitrary angles. i tried to advice him to become a millionaire but he didnt listen, he kept firing at people saying his invention works. i dont know today.i'll wait for free altium. judging by the demo layouts on Autotrax website it's pretty crummy >:)That's a one man operation. An amazing achievement IMO.
(couldn't resist)
amazing indeed, but sadly went the wrong direction, what a waste. have you tried the simple demo pcb editing? a good way to make a spaghetty mess in seconds, no 45 deg trace snap, just arbitrary angles. i tried to advice him to become a millionaire but he didnt listen, he kept firing at people saying his invention works. i dont know today.i'll wait for free altium. judging by the demo layouts on Autotrax website it's pretty crummy >:)That's a one man operation. An amazing achievement IMO.
(couldn't resist)
This may help... http://kov.com/Support/Apple (http://kov.com/Support/Apple)
i'll wait for free altium. judging by the demo layouts on Autotrax website it's pretty crummy >:)
(couldn't resist)
Well, you could always do a project in DEX, email it to me and I'll use that an excellent example of PCB design.
I'll even give you a full license for free if it's any good. That can't be bad! :)
i'll take you up on that offer. lemme see if i can whip up a board over the weekend. but be prepared for some 'machinegunning' if the software is counterintuitive. if i need to spend more than a few hours finding my way to create symbols, footprints and route it ... the guns will come out .
We're all looking forward to seeing it. :-+
If anybody else has an excellent design in DEX that they would like me to feature on my web site with a link/credits to them, then please email me the project (Use the build in problem reporter) and I'll give them a full license for free if it's any good.
i'll take you up on that offer. lemme see if i can whip up a board over the weekend. but be prepared for some 'machinegunning' if the software is counterintuitive. if i need to spend more than a few hours finding my way to create symbols, footprints and route it ... the guns will come out .
i'll take you up on that offer. lemme see if i can whip up a board over the weekend. but be prepared for some 'machinegunning' if the software is counterintuitive. if i need to spend more than a few hours finding my way to create symbols, footprints and route it ... the guns will come out .
i'll take you up on that offer. lemme see if i can whip up a board over the weekend. but be prepared for some 'machinegunning' if the software is counterintuitive. if i need to spend more than a few hours finding my way to create symbols, footprints and route it ... the guns will come out .
Eagle ? What is Eagle ? you mean that glorified pencil and napkin tool ?
Don't forget to keep an open mind. AutoTRAX is not Eagle
well this is a no start ... no STEP support >:(So you've jumped out of the ring and off to the dressing room before the bell's started. :-//
how am i supposed to bring in assemblies like a case , buttons etc ? i have a bunch of mechanical stuff that needs to fit correctly on the pcb. i have all those parts as STEP or IGES files ( STEP be the dominant format. all manufacturers like tyco, molex and many many others have STEP available. )
this begins good ... i can' t even place the first parts or draw out my board contour ... i don't do rectangular boards .. they need to fit a case including holes, notches , cutouts and other stuff.
from the DEX manual : download file, load in Inventor export as SGL.
great so i need a 10000$ program ( a program i don't have and don't know ) to work with the 45$ pcb tool ...
Meanwhile....its almost February 2015 and I forgot how many months ago it was I signed up for the Altium site and received a total of 1/2 of a communication from them the entire time.
(http://www.dumpaday.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/meanwhile-in2.jpg)
You are so wrong no 45 deg trace snap!. Have you used AutoTRAX?o right :palm: i am so "wrong" :D congratulation! after all this years. now we have alot to catch up ;) keep it up! hows the simulation tutorial/functionality goes on? next time make that (45 degree routing) as default setting because we dont usually see spagetthy board around. next move?.... questionaires for experts... and hope we dont wander and waste time too much. i hope you dont take it as an insult, more like an advice ;)
View this video to learn about 45 deg trace snap - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQW86DuoWjA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQW86DuoWjA)
Ahh..., but they now have your email address. Did you give them your phone number? :(i occasionally got an email from your ads dept thanks. i hope one day i got one from your edu dept, err i mean full tutorial on how to from A to Z (footprint->components->schematics->simul->pcb->3d->gerber production) not in phletora form of small sections in few minutes each separately in where i cannot or difficult to find ;) cheers.
may throw in some diff pairs and length matched stuff. may use flow routing ( curved traces ). Better make sure your spatial checker is up t par... just in case i make this a foldable board ...
i hope it can read STEP files or i'm not even beginning ...
well this is a no start ... no STEP support >:(
how am i supposed to bring in assemblies like a case , buttons etc ? i have a bunch of mechanical stuff that needs to fit correctly on the pcb. i have all those parts as STEP or IGES files ( STEP be the dominant format. all manufacturers like tyco, molex and many many others have STEP available. )
A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market.
"Have you heard about Altium?"
"No. What is that?"
"I dunno. I thought you knew."
"Hmm. Perhaps they discovered a new element. The name does sound like one of these elements Potassium, Einsteinium, Uranium and what they are all called."
"Yeah, I guess you are right. Awesome that they still discover new elements these days. Science is amazing..."
A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market. Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.And what target market would that be ?
A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market. Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.And what target market would that be ?
The target market for a schemaric / pcb package is people that want to draw schematics and design boards. . No ? What other diversification do you want.
Do you want to make cars that are only for people that drive short distances ?
Of course you cant expect that all cars are as advanced as a Tesla.
The main drawbacks I see with Auto Traxs are being Windows only (not that useful for open source projects) and being a one man close code project (things can happen).
A fair comparison would be to eagle, diptrace, kicad and products for the same target market. Saying that it's not having feature X while none in this category has it is meaningless.And what target market would that be ?
The target market for a schemaric / pcb package is people that want to draw schematics and design boards. . No ? What other diversification do you want.
Do you want to make cars that are only for people that drive short distances ? Ot cars for people that only drive on two lane roads ? That doesnt pan out.
Of course you cant expect that all cars are as advanced as a Tesla.
But , today every car comes with a navigation system (3D) Right now the 'dex' car only navigates on dirt roads in moldavia. Anything else requires you to bring the bulldozer and pour the asphalt.
Not good ...
Anyway. I have not given up.
I will do a design , trying to make something that looks neat and cool so he can put it on his site. It has to be aestetically pleasing , properly laid out and properly drafted.
So i will start by making a schematic. And post my findings along the way.
I may come of harsh , but i am intrigued by this tool , especially since it is a one man show. Any criticism i spew is notment to hurt but to poke a finger in the eye where the big shortcomings and annoyances are. Capture and layout software should assit the designer and lighten the work or speed it up. Too many cad programs are written by 'programmers' that have no concept of what the problems really are or how it will be used.
There are a lot of very tedious steps in making a schematic and producing a board. A good program does the annoying jobs for you and lets you focus on where the human is needed. Let the computer do what it is best at and the human where he is best. Cad programs that need to have the human do everything or no longer of this century ... They died years ago.
I've put STEP on the 2015 Roadmap for AutoTRAX.
(http://kov.com/Support/Roadmap)
The main drawbacks I see with Auto Traxs are being Windows only (not that useful for open source projects) and being a one man close code project (things can happen).the other drawback is its "paid" software ;) because the trend for success in linux is it has to be "free", besides of being "open sourced" ;) no?. imho and reading... linux is flooded with free stuffs and the users seem not to be able to distiguish between "software" and "the real software". most of the time they like to insist that whats available in "free stuff" can rival or do what "commercial/professional/paid stuff" can do.
3d is extremely important. It is where the industry is today. No longer where it is headed. No step model means we dont use it !
The days of having to bi.uild footprints from paper are over. So are the days of having to guess if everything will fit after it is assembled. We live in a time where computers are powerful. Where 3d printing is ubiquitus.Everyone bleats about collaboration and sharing . I say share step files. It avoids problems and shortens design time and eliminates lots of problems. We can create beautiful things if we can mesh electronics and modeling and mechanical cad. 3d step files allow you to pull that together.
Any new software that does not support that will fall by the wayside. Not having support for real 3d is like a calculator without multiplication. You can do it by repetitively adding, but nobody will buy it.
As for the comment ' it's for makers' . I resent such comments. Anything worth doing is worth f.doing good. You are holding people back. There is tons of peoe out there that could make great stuff if knly they could get their hands on decent tools. That is my 'fight'
When i grew up as a 16. Year old i saw flga tools on sun workstations. I had ideas but couldnt even learn about that stuff because the computers and software were too expensive.
Today stuff has come down in price a lot. 400$ gets you a pretty good scope.
We need a really good pcb tool that lets one make designs with bga et al. Not that stuff that costs 500$ and you can still only do 4 layer eurocards. Dex looks interesting. Its cheap and promises a lot. Let me see if it holds up against my yardstick: getting a capable tool in the hands of the masses.
...tool with a solid, well designed data structure...circuit designers dont care a dime on what data structure it is or how faboulosly effort put into it, they only care about designing circuit. if you get that idea you win, diptrace albeit its poor ol gui and kicad like separate sw for comp/sch/pcb and more expensive is still on top of this trax why? they got the idea right. dont talk marketing a circuit designer dont care about. when i say win, is not based on how fancy a sw looks, but how much users and profit they collected, please one should not live in one's own dreamworld ;) no offense, again, if i have to mention this everytime.
I am very interested in expanding AutoTRAX to take into account signal integrity etc.no no no dont do that yet! fix the basic thing first, people are put off by this basic things impracticality and overwhelmed by your buttons with less manual instructions. expanding to complicated stuffs will do no good if people are not using the sw because of trivial (but important) stuffs. but if you wish to waste another time and have money poll to live, then carry on, i dont have the right to object its your sw afterall.
I need users....
I am very interested in expanding AutoTRAX to take into account signal integrity etc.no no no dont do that yet! fix the basic thing first, people are put off by this basic things impracticality and overwhelmed by your buttons with less manual instructions. expanding to complicated stuffs will do no good if people are not using the sw because of trivial (but important) stuffs. but if you wish to waste another time and have money poll to live, then carry on, i dont have the right to object its your sw afterall.
All I can say is different tools are for different markets. If you go to McDonalds to eat with royalty you're gonna have a bad time.
There is tons of peoe out there that could make great stuff if knly they could get their hands on decent tools. That is my 'fight'That's not your 'fight' that is your tantrum. If it were your fight you would we building those tools instead of just whining about the existing ones.
There is tons of peoe out there that could make great stuff if knly they could get their hands on decent tools. That is my 'fight'That's not your 'fight' that is your tantrum. If it were your fight you would we building those tools instead of just whining about the existing ones.
There are many ways to help build a software product that don't require programming expertise. Whining about it or bugging others to do as you wish is not one of those.There is tons of peoe out there that could make great stuff if knly they could get their hands on decent tools. That is my 'fight'That's not your 'fight' that is your tantrum. If it were your fight you would we building those tools instead of just whining about the existing ones.
There are many fronts to a fight. There's all kinds of ways to actively fight against a software problem that don't involve actual programming.
Besides, once you get to a point where you can know circuit and board design very well, it's because you spent time designing circuits and boards and not programming.
OSS, the software quality is absolute shit.
The only thing that the OSS "movement" has made clear to me is that without someone being responsible for software quality, as in OSS, the software quality is absolute shit.I hope we agree that quality control, usability and UI design require expertise in that particular field. No project, be it OSS or propietary, be it big or small, would appoint a cry baby for such task only on the merit of their whining.
Plenty of non-free software is shit too, mind you, but not having someone who is responsible for quality, be it to themselves or to others, then there won't be any impetus to increase quality. "works for me" is where it stops.
As far as everyone knows, they are still in close beta with open beta around the corner.
Just because they have circuit studio it doesn't mean a thing. Marketing wise it makes sense they keep quiet during this time and hype it up once open beta comes, then quiet again and more hype close to release. That repetition of hype-quiet reinforces the customer awareness of the product when it's ready to come out.
I would worry if they don't have anything by the end of February because slipping one month is nothing in projects like this.
Then again there are two days left in January so the open beta could be still on schedule, we just don't know, and guessing is not going to help bring it to market faster :)
It's April now, I'd love to take a peek. If I slipped a month, well over 2 in this case, I'd be sacking people.Perhaps that is why there is another thread running called "CircuitMaker Dead".
I signed up for Beta last year. Nothing!
Just saying vague statementsI don't think my statement was in any way "vague". In fact it is very much black & white.
So what is your professional relationship with Altium to be privy on that information?I am very close to one of the developing team members.
So you are saying that the open beta is not going to happen?No, I did not say that.
it's just speculation since they are updating news to the masses and the press.As I said above, we will revisit this in 18 months. You will have the benefit of hindsight then.
Not sure what the laws are in AussielandYou may not be aware of it, but many of Altium's most talented programmers are in the Ukraine.
Not sure what the laws are in AussielandYou may not be aware of it, but many of Altium's most talented programmers are in the Ukraine.
I don't think they care too much about the laws in Australia.
They are more interested in the war that rages within their country & their immigration applications for the USA.
It's also likely that Altium management aren't sharing the long term vision of each product with their programmers in Ukraine.
And a lot can change in a year or two... even if they are putting one product on the back burner in favor of another, it doesn't mean things will say that way.
After all, Altium isn't the best at predicting the direction the market will take.
Altium is pretty poor at predicting, pretty poor at fixing bugs, pretty poor at following up on what they tell their shareholders.
I just love how my distributor just send me a bill for renewing my subscription without even a mention of new licensing or product options.
I wonder if they will offer upgrade/downgrade paths for current licence owners...
Never a good idea to leave your loyal customers with the idea they got the shitty end of the deal.
I still dont get why they did that. Did they really expect to triple the sales??? Or some COO was really bad a math? They expected all the FPGA development to switch to their product?Never a good idea to leave your loyal customers with the idea they got the shitty end of the deal.
But in true Altium spirit they did exactly that when they suddenly dropped prices by 70%!, back when it was around $12K a seat.
I can remember Nick Martin giving a speech at the company announcing it, saying "we can never go back to high priced software". That didn't last long ::)
Did they really expect to triple the sales???A quadrupling of sales was the argument that was put to their shareholders.
Or some COO was really bad a math?As it turned out, yes.
They expected all the FPGA development to switch to their product?Yes. Altium lost their way for almost 10 years with FPGAs.
I still dont get why they did that. Did they really expect to triple the sales??? Or some COO was really bad a math? They expected all the FPGA development to switch to their product?
But in true Altium spirit they did exactly that when they suddenly dropped prices by 70%!, back when it was around $12K a seat.I still dont get why they did that. Did they really expect to triple the sales??? Or some COO was really bad a math? They expected all the FPGA development to switch to their product?
I can remember Nick Martin giving a speech at the company announcing it, saying "we can never go back to high priced software". That didn't last long ::)
I think the move worked in bringing in extra customers, as you would expect it would. That was a very attractive price.
But in true Altium spirit they did exactly that when they suddenly dropped prices by 70%!, back when it was around $12K a seat.I still dont get why they did that. Did they really expect to triple the sales??? Or some COO was really bad a math? They expected all the FPGA development to switch to their product?
I can remember Nick Martin giving a speech at the company announcing it, saying "we can never go back to high priced software". That didn't last long ::)
IIRC the President and COO at the time was against the move, hence why she was given the boot not long after.
Yes, I think the public reason was that they wanted to align the prices with FPGA type subscription, but IIRC there was lots of ra-ra talk about how Protel used to be a low cost tools and the company had strayed from it's roots etc.
And for those who forget it actually happened. And it was 75%, not 70%, my bad:
http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/practical-chip-design/4309511/Altium-cuts-prices-on-their-design-tool-creating-an-interesting-IP-pricing-play (http://www.edn.com/electronics-blogs/practical-chip-design/4309511/Altium-cuts-prices-on-their-design-tool-creating-an-interesting-IP-pricing-play)
http://www.embedded.com/electronics-news/4197934/Altium-cuts-the-price-of-design-tools (http://www.embedded.com/electronics-news/4197934/Altium-cuts-the-price-of-design-tools)
IMO it was good move for the industry, maybe not so good for the company though, although IIRC it didn't hurt them a huge amount. So essentially I think the move worked in bringing in extra customers, as you would expect it would. That was a very attractive price.
The problem was they were smack in the middle of the FPGA dream which everyone but Altium saw was going to fail miserably as it ultimately did.
I think that Steam sale idea is a good one for Altium.
The people without much money can wait for a sale that may come occasionally, while the people who need it now pay full price. It's also a bit like the way they sell airline tickets.