Author Topic: #562 – Electroboom!  (Read 108824 times)

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Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #125 on: November 11, 2021, 06:20:09 pm »
So there's the crux of the problem.  My straight wire, or any partial loop for that matter, ends up with charged ends, which outside of the particular conditions at hand would be considered to be a voltage and could be measured with traditional test instruments.  So what is a voltage?

Please modify your post to include the "traditional test instrument" and the measuring procedure adopted.

Voltage is (minus) the path integral of the total electric field along a particular path.
(The total electric field is the field that you experience in that point, in that instant of time and in this contenxt is the vectorial sum of Eind and Ecoul).
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Offline jesuscf

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #126 on: November 11, 2021, 06:36:21 pm »
In short, the wire is never consider alone. It is implicitly considered part of a complete loop.

What about induction heating?  Where is the complete loop?


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Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #127 on: November 11, 2021, 06:41:06 pm »
Please modify your post to include the "traditional test instrument" and the measuring procedure adopted.

What I mean is that if you had the same wire ends but absent any external fields and achieved the exact same concentration of charge at the ends by some other means (like a battery in the middle of the wire), and measuring the voltage with a plain voltmeter.  Before you protest about the battery, I'm not interested in the means, just the concentration (distribution) of charge--which should be definite, even if we have difficulty measuring it.

Voltage is (minus) the path integral of the total electric field along a particular path.
(The total electric field is the field that you experience in that point, in that instant of time and in this contenxt is the vectorial sum of Eind and Ecoul).

[/quote]

That is one definition of voltage.  Can you think of another?  Like you, I'm busy for a while with real work.  I'll try and actually post something tonight worth thinking about instead of posing silly questions.
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Offline jesuscf

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #128 on: November 11, 2021, 07:01:59 pm »
What I mean is that if you had the same wire ends but absent any external fields and achieved the exact same concentration of charge at the ends by some other means (like a battery in the middle of the wire), and measuring the voltage with a plain voltmeter.  Before you protest about the battery, I'm not interested in the means, just the concentration (distribution) of charge--which should be definite, even if we have difficulty measuring it.

I know the question is not directed at me, but would some sort of thermoelectric emf do?  Because I showed that very example to the same blockheads before and nothing happened.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/does-kirchhoffs-law-hold-disagreeing-with-a-master/msg2351850/#msg2351850
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 07:41:41 pm by jesuscf »
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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #129 on: November 11, 2021, 09:05:14 pm »
Hm, I think I got my "tapped transformer" figured out. It's actually quite simple, again looking only at the rotational electrical field:

Let's say I have N (N being any even number) turns around a core with a given magnetic flux, the flux causing "some constant EMF". At N/2 turns the transformer winding is tapped.

"N turns" just means walking around the axis of the rotational electric field N times, each completed loop adds "EMF" volts. So after N turns you have N x "EMF", and obviously after N/2 turns you have N/2 x "EMF".

If you think about it, this opens up some interesting transformer "hacks": Say you have a toroidal transformer in your parts bin and the secondary voltage is just a bit too high. It should be possible to correct the voltage without cutting open the transformer and removing turns, by just adding some turns on the outside but in "reverse" direction.
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Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2021, 09:14:36 pm »
Ok, I knew I had to sleep over it. One night didn't do, but a little five minute nap seemed to have done the trick.

Here is your answer to the partial turn question.
The rod will develop a charge at its extreme, there will be a net electric field around the rod, but no voltage if the rod does not go around the core.
As I had written months ago in my answers on SE, the total electric field behaves as a conservative field in all regions of space that do not contain the variable magnetic flux region. So, your rod that sits in a cylinder of space that does not go around the core, will behave as if it were subjected to an electric field produced by sources and sinks of field.

The answer to your question is therefore: at a given instant in time the rod will develop surface charge that will make the electric field inside exactly zero (no matter the resistivity, in this open circuit case). Now, on the exterior there will be a net nonzero electric field Etot, but the surface will be 'equipotential', meaning that the path integral of the electric field on any path going from one point on the rod to any other point on the rod will be zero. Just like in the electrostatic case. (Incidentally, this is the real magic: path integrals that are independent of path. How cool is that?)

And in fact, if I put the voltmeter with its probes inside the torus hole, or anyway in such a manner that the measuremente loop (voltmeter + probes + rod) does not enclose any changing flux, I will read the actual voltage along the rod and also in the space around the rod where the measurement loop is. And that voltage is zero.
Of course if your measurement loop includes the core, then you will read one EMF. But that is not the voltage along (and around, if nearby) the rod.

Sorry for the delay. Quality sleep is everything.



Now, to address your last post...

1) You did not name the instrument, nor did you show the measurement procedure. Did you realize that?
2) You say
" if you had the same wire ends but absent any external fields and achieved the exact same concentration of charge at the ends by some other means"
So, you want to take away half of the physical excitation that make your system what it is. Sure, if you pin the charges with nails and turn off the current in the transformer so as to kill the flux, you will see an electric field in the space where the rod was, and you will measure a voltage that will be different from zero. But the configuration of the electric field will be different from that around the rod when the transformer is powered.
And I know where you are going (much in the same way that yesterday I knew we would have ended up discussing partial inductances :-) ). You want to define voltage as the scalar potential difference.
You are free to do that, and some do, but you must be aware that with that definition of voltage you can't do anything useful without supplying the magnetic vector potential A. The reason, as I said before, is that it the scalar electric potential is insufficient to completely characterize the system. You cannot even apply Ohm's law.

And electrons, in the rod, in the coil, in the space around it, respond to the TOTAL electric field, not the partial component Ecoul (that is responsible for the scalar potential part of the voltage).
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Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2021, 09:21:40 pm »
Humor me, guys. See the attached picture. All wires are actual wires and interact with fields, but have negligible resistance. R1 can be any value, I don't think it matters. Assume EMF=1V. Predict the voltages shown on V1 and V2, using KVL and Faradays Law.

V1 is zero, V2 is 1V. (didn't check the sign just saw the thumbnail), might as well be -1V
It's easy if you check if your measurement loop (voltmeter + probes + branch you want to know the voltage of) contains or does not contain the flux.

Now I have a question for you.
Suppose I place a loop made with one resistor, the voltmeter, and its probes, near the magnetic flux region. Would you spend even a microsecond of your time to check that the induced field is being compensated? Or would you rather go: "nah, there is no flux in my measurement loop, I can apply KVL, no problem!"

EDIT: Yep, the transformer trick would do. IIRC Big Clive used the whole secondary of a transformer to step down the voltage. From 240-->12V to 240 ---> 240-12V or something like that. Caveat: the current must be sustained by both windings.

In principle we could use the radial probing to extract a finely varying voltage from a solenoidal coil immersed in a magnetic field. Instead of going one turn at the time, we can have a continuous (well, only marred by asperities in contact) voltage from start to finish. Mechanical nightmare, of course.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2021, 09:35:31 pm by Sredni »
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #132 on: November 11, 2021, 11:49:43 pm »
I know the question is not directed at me, but would some sort of thermoelectric emf do?  Because I showed that very example to the same blockheads before and nothing happened.

I don't know, but I'd like to use as many concepts that we all agree on as I can.
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #133 on: November 11, 2021, 11:55:10 pm »
1) You did not name the instrument, nor did you show the measurement procedure. Did you realize that?

I didn't have one in mind.  An infinite impedance voltmeter with test leads.  Or negligibly close to infinite impedance. 

Quote
And I know where you are going (much in the same way that yesterday I knew we would have ended up discussing partial inductances :-) ). You want to define voltage as the scalar potential difference.
You are free to do that, and some do, but you must be aware that with that definition of voltage you can't do anything useful without supplying the magnetic vector potential A. The reason, as I said before, is that it the scalar electric potential is insufficient to completely characterize the system. You cannot even apply Ohm's law.

You're catching on!  And Ohms law indeed may not always work.  So what?  What I'm getting at isn't really physics, it is understanding the nature of the disagreement between the 'KVLers' and the 'Lewinites'.  I think I've figured it out, so I'm now going to write a very long post.

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Offline jesuscf

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #134 on: November 12, 2021, 12:07:34 am »
Suppose I place a loop made with one resistor, the voltmeter, and its probes, near the magnetic flux region. Would you spend even a microsecond of your time to check that the induced field is being compensated? Or would you rather go: "nah, there is no flux in my measurement loop, I can apply KVL, no problem!"

Do you mean a loop like the one in the attached picture?  If so, and if you measure correctly, KVL works perfectly, once again!
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #135 on: November 12, 2021, 01:07:50 am »
OK, I've asked a lot of pointed questions, so it's time for me to stick my neck out and say something.  First, when I first saw this debacle, I didn't really understand it, but it seemed like a non-issue to me.  Still, such debates should be about learning and discovery, not belittling, name-calling and all the sorts of ugly pettiness that have shown up.  It doesn't help that both Lewin and Mehdi are of the attention-seeking type.  What struck me as interesting is that of all the stuff that has been posted here, Youtube, wherever, it never becomes clear what the disagreement is about.  People say Lewin is 'wrong', others say he is 'right'.  What does that even mean?  Did he rig his demonstration?  Here's my interpretation of the disagreement (warning: there's no real resolution), anyone who differs please be specific about which point we depart at! 

So here's a drawing just like the myriads of others we've all seen:



I think we all agree that in this diagram, both V1 and V2 will read the same voltage.  I think both camps also agree that voltages V(A0-A2) and V(A0-AV2) are the same.  The point of departure is that the 'KVLers' would say that the two voltages are some number and they cancel each other out, so the both voltmeters read just the voltage across R2.  That number, of course, would vary with the position of R2 because it posits the existence of a continual voltage gradient on the wire.  The 'Lewinites' seem to be asserting that both voltages are zero and that the position of A0 doesn't matter. 

Using the definition of voltage as being the work required to move a test charge along a path, it seem pretty clear that going from A0 to D0 through R1 takes a different amount of work than going through R2.  Thus they have different voltages and of opposite sign.  However, when we are measuring with a voltmeter, neither of those paths is what we are referring to--it is the path of the test leads going to the voltmeter.  (I initially stuck on this point!)  I haven't seen any mathematical proof, but it appears that things work out so that even though there are infinitely many paths to arrange those test leads, if you stay in-plane (or possibly even not, but I haven't thought about that) and don't cross the ring, your voltmeter will always read either the voltage across R2 or R1, without any intermediate results.  Again, either there is no induced voltage on the test leads nor (A0-A2) and (D0-D2), or they always add up to the same number and cancel.

 Some have tried probing out-of-plane perpendicular to the ring and gotten different results, but the counter is that this method somehow 'ignores' something--the induced EMF field--and thus is wrong.  It has been asserted here that you can't have a voltage on a conductor that is a partial turn or a partial ring.  Again, there are two apparent explanations, one that until the loop is complete there is no voltage and the other that there is a voltage, but you can't measure it because any probe you use will either cancel or complete the loop. 

I earlier had alluded to the concept of 'absolute' voltage.  It might sound silly, but I checked to make sure that Lewin had actually taught this earlier in the course.  In electrostatics, you learn and then apparently promptly forget that a conductive sphere of radius r will have a capacitance of C=4*pi*E0r.  And, since Q=CV, V=Q/C.  There's a perfectly legitimate definition of voltage derived directly from fundamental constants.  Now before the howls of protest start, please remember I'm trying to resolve the issue of what the disagreement is about, not who is right.



So now I'm going to measure voltage in a different way, one that is never path dependent--brass balls.  I'm going to take two hollow brass balls of a precisely known radius r hanging from an insulated string.  Since I know r, I know C.  I'm going to arrange a partial turn or partial ring or even a straight rod, going through a changing magnetic field, then extend the ends out to the point where the fields are negligible.  Then while the field is in state of linear change  (call this the MQS period, or Magneto-Quasistatic period) I'm going to touch the brass balls to the ends of the rod so that they accumulate a charge, keeping them there until equilibrium is reached.  Then I will separate them from the rod before the MQS period ends.  Next I will take the brass balls back to my Couloumb meter lab where I will proceed to precisely determine what the charge was on each ball, then I will know each voltage from V=Q/C.  The difference between the two is my voltage, by this definition, between the two points.  If I use this method on the Lewin ring, I think the results will match the perpendicular probing method.

So that, IMO, is the nature of the disagreement.  As others have said, in a conductor in a varying field, there will be two forces EIND and ECOUL that will will balance out in the MQS domain, because that is what conductors do--there can be no electric field in a conductor.  However, that doesn't negate the fact that there is a charge imbalance over the conductor.  When it comes to partial turns, I think the mathematical types here have done themselves a disservice by insisting that we only consider full loops because any voltage measurement will make a complete loop.  The complete loop doesn't matter if the gap is beyond the non-negligible area of flux.  If you took the rod in my example and bent it into a U-shape and then extended it far enough out so that the flux from the torus was negligible, you would get the same reading from a voltmeter as  you would from the brass ball technique.  Completing the loop satisfies the math, but doesn't matter in the real world because the work has been done locally in the area near the torus.

So that post wasn't as long as I thought it would be.  Lewin is not 'wrong'.  But Lewin is wrong!  According to my absolute definition, it is not KVL that fails in a varying magnetic field, it is the definition of voltage being the integral of E dot dL (sorry--I can't find notation symbols) that fails in a non-conservative field.  I can hear howls of protest.  But think about it!

« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 03:01:44 am by bdunham7 »
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Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #136 on: November 12, 2021, 01:14:46 am »
Suppose I place a loop made with one resistor, the voltmeter, and its probes, near the magnetic flux region. Would you spend even a microsecond of your time to check that the induced field is being compensated? Or would you rather go: "nah, there is no flux in my measurement loop, I can apply KVL, no problem!"

Do you mean a loop like the one in the attached picture?  If so, and if you measure correctly, KVL works perfectly, once again!

You are the one calling others 'blockheads'.
Seems to me you have yet to finish coloring your EM book.

We are talking infinitely long solenoids and toroids to confine the magnetic flux in the core. And you come up with a pancake?
Don't you even realize what is wrong with your setup?
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Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #137 on: November 12, 2021, 01:24:26 am »
It has been asserted here that you can't have a voltage on a conductor that is a partial turn or a partial ring.

Sorry, you are mistaken. You can surely have a voltage on a partial ring, but you need to have the ring plus the path you are referring it to go around the magnetic flux region. This is how transformer work, and where the L di/dt formula for inductors is derived.
I haven't read the rest yet, but I have to stop you right here.

I'll tell you what my crystal ball forecasts: that your method to measure voltage across the rod will force you to move the sensing instrument on a path that, together with the rod, will form a closed path around the variable magnetic region.

Now, I'll read the rest.
<pause>

Oh. I read the rest. It started interesting, but then... I find many points that do not ring right, but I'll start with this.

Forget nonconservative fields. Put your rod in a conservative field, an electrostatic field. It will 'charge up' by induction. You will have opposite charge at the extremes. Now measure your absolute voltage with your method. It should be zero.
Is it zero?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 01:37:43 am by Sredni »
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #138 on: November 12, 2021, 01:33:36 am »
I'll tell you what my crystal ball forecasts: that your method to measure voltage across the rod will force you to move the sensing instrument on a path that, together with the rod, will form a closed path around the variable magnetic region.

No, your insistence on a closed path is your downfall.  You only insist on it because it makes your math work. 
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Offline jesuscf

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #139 on: November 12, 2021, 01:35:54 am »
Suppose I place a loop made with one resistor, the voltmeter, and its probes, near the magnetic flux region. Would you spend even a microsecond of your time to check that the induced field is being compensated? Or would you rather go: "nah, there is no flux in my measurement loop, I can apply KVL, no problem!"

Do you mean a loop like the one in the attached picture?  If so, and if you measure correctly, KVL works perfectly, once again!

You are the one calling others 'blockheads'.
Seems to me you have yet to finish coloring your EM book.

We are talking infinitely long solenoids and toroids to confine the magnetic flux in the core. And you come up with a pancake?
Don't you even realize what is wrong with your setup?

Sredni you are talking about many things at once.  The trademark of a bullshitter!  Paragraphs and paragraphs: just deflection and more deflection.  Concentrate in the point at hand:  did Lewin measured the circuit correctly or not?  Are his conclusions correct? The answer is NO for both questions as Electroboom and others have demonstrated.

By the way have you done the experiment yourself?  Where is your setup?  Can you show us?

EDIT: Here is another video from 'fromjesse'.  The title says it all: "The Lewin loop inside an iron core - KVL still holds"





« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 01:54:31 am by jesuscf »
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Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #140 on: November 12, 2021, 01:51:45 am »
No, your insistence on a closed path is your downfall.  You only insist on it because it makes your math work.

It's all Stokes' fault. I ain't do nothin'!!!
And it's not my math. I wish, oh how I wish it was. And it's not even Lewin's.
KVLers seem to think Lewin has come up with some extravagant theory, but this is not his theory: it's plain and simple classical electrodynamics. When Lewin said 'all textbook are wrong' he meant introductory books talking about how to solve LR circuit. The 5 + 3 - 8 = 0 vs 5 + 3 = 8 way to apply KVL or Faraday in lumped dynamic circuits. There are tons of EM books that agree with Lewin on this matter. Purcell is one of them. He treats the ring explicitly. Haus and Melcher is another one. Faria is another. I can go on an on... There are video from professors of MIT, Purdue University, Cornell University that apply Faraday the way Lewin does, and that say that voltage is no longer unique in a nonconservative settings.
(And who do you have? A comedian and three guys in a garage?)

Please, open an EM book. One that is not about coloring pictures.

And yes, I did the experiment myself. My transformer is in the guest room, under a nightstand; my Lewin ring is in a box where I keep jumpers and connectors; my scope in on my desk. Why? Do you doubt the result of the measurement? Everybody agrees on those. Why wasting time showing another identical experiment?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 01:56:22 am by Sredni »
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Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #141 on: November 12, 2021, 01:58:04 am »
Forget nonconservative fields. Put your rod in a conservative field, an electrostatic field. It will 'charge up' by induction. You will have opposite charge at the extremes. Now measure your absolute voltage with your method. It should be zero.
Is it zero?

Why would it be zero?
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Offline jesuscf

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #142 on: November 12, 2021, 02:53:15 am »

KVLers seem to think Lewin has come up with some extravagant theory, but this is not his theory: it's plain and simple classical electrodynamics. When Lewin said 'all textbook are wrong' he meant introductory books talking about how to solve LR circuit. The 5 + 3 - 8 = 0 vs 5 + 3 = 8 way to apply KVL or Faraday in lumped dynamic circuits. There are tons of EM books that agree with Lewin on this matter. Purcell is one of them. He treats the ring explicitly. Haus and Melcher is another one. Faria is another. I can go on an on... There are video from professors of MIT, Purdue University, Cornell University that apply Faraday the way Lewin does, and that say that voltage is no longer unique in a nonconservative settings.
(And who do you have? A comedian and three guys in a garage?)

So how comes that when you eliminate the influence of the varying magnetic field on the measuring instrument KVL works perfectly?  Here are the results from 'fromjesse' (from his garage I guess?):

Left resistor: -61mV
Right resistor: -660mV

Total voltage dropped: -721mV

Top copper: 378mV
Bottom copper 350mV

Total voltage induced 728 mV

Total sum: 7 mV (which within the tolerance of the measuring instrument)

Please, open an EM book. One that is not about coloring pictures.

I have!  As a matter of fact, I tediously transcribed a whole section of one (with equations and figures!) in a similar thread a couple of years back. You know, just to make sure everybody was talking about the same f*king thing:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/does-kirchhoffs-law-hold-disagreeing-with-a-master/msg2352807/#msg2352807

And yes, I did the experiment myself. My transformer is in the guest room, under a nightstand; my Lewin ring is in a box where I keep jumpers and connectors; my scope in on my desk. Why? Do you doubt the result of the measurement? Everybody agrees on those. Why wasting time showing another identical experiment?

I asked because you were very quick into mocking my setup!  In a previous message it was somehow suggested that a ring made of resistors will behave differently than a copper ring.  I was pretty sure it will work exactly the same, so I made one.  And yes, KVL works (again)!

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/amphour/562-electroboom!/msg3806177/#msg3806177
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Offline bsfeechannelTopic starter

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #143 on: November 12, 2021, 03:48:25 am »
What struck me as interesting is that of all the stuff that has been posted here, Youtube, wherever, it never becomes clear what the disagreement is about.

It is very simple. Look at your straight wire again at an arbitrary position near a varying magnetic field.



We see you understand that the field inside the wire will be zero, so no voltage inside the wire. But you have charges of opposite polarity on each end.

What is voltage? It is the potential energy electric charges have to go from one point to another. The positive charges (using conventional current) won't be able to go through the red no-no path because you can see you have lines of non-conservative electric field opposing their way (I am omitting the conservative field generated by those charges).  So, the voltage between the two ends of the wire will be zero through these paths. For you to make them go, you would have to provide an additional electric field in this region. This is KVL.

However, if they "choose" the green yes path, they'll succeed because you have lines of electric field actually going from the positive to the negative charges. So their voltages will not be zero. You don't need to apply an additional field to move them.

What KVLers are saying essentially is that this voltage is zero, i.e., the charges can't go through the green path and that the electric field that is moving them must be inside the wire. Which is absurd.

The addition of meter probes doesn't affect what you are going to measure through the red or green paths. And what is more annoying is that when KVLers measure the voltages through the green path and the red path and encounter exactly what the theory predicts, they say that the theory is wrong.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 03:52:48 am by bsfeechannel »
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #144 on: November 12, 2021, 03:59:52 am »
What is voltage? It is the potential energy electric charges have to go from one point to another.

That's one definition.  The whole point of my post is that there is another, whether you believe it to be an acceptable one or not.  The nature of the disagreement, IMO, is that your KVLers seem to have instinctively adopted the definition that matches my explanation of absolute voltage.  In KVL-world, your definition of voltage is what fails in a non-conservative field, not KVL. 

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The addition of meter probes doesn't affect what you are going to measure through the red or green paths. And what is more annoying is that when KVLers measure the voltages through the green path and the red path and encounter exactly what the theory predicts, they say that the theory is wrong.

I think the KVLers have settled on the approach of using test probes that are perpendicular to the plane (it's not a two-dimensional universe)  and extending those leads far enough out that the rotational E-field is negligible.  So no in-plane paths.  This eliminates the 'interference' that would otherwise prevent an accurate measurement. 
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 04:08:09 am by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #145 on: November 12, 2021, 04:22:56 am »
Forget nonconservative fields. Put your rod in a conservative field, an electrostatic field. It will 'charge up' by induction. You will have opposite charge at the extremes. Now measure your absolute voltage with your method. It should be zero.
Is it zero?
Why would it be zero?

Well, in my universe conductors in electrostatics are equipotentials. (It has something to do with a certain path independence...)
Is it not the case in your universe, with your definition of voltage?
Because if it is not, you are gonna rewrite a great deal of physics.

So, will your method give zero voltage between two points on the surface of a conductor, in electrostatic conditions? Can you prove it?
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline bdunham7

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #146 on: November 12, 2021, 04:27:05 am »
There are tons of EM books that agree with Lewin on this matter. Purcell is one of them. He treats the ring explicitly. Haus and Melcher is another one. Faria is another. I can go on an on... There are video from professors of MIT, Purdue University, Cornell University that apply Faraday the way Lewin does, and that say that voltage is no longer unique in a nonconservative settings.
(And who do you have? A comedian and three guys in a garage?)

I'll assume that the rest of your comments aren't directed at me.  No longer unique?  Sort of reminds me of the Second Vatican Council abolishing purgatory. 

I'm agnostic, I don't believe there are 'right' and 'wrong' models in physics (OK, there are some wrong ones  :)  )  rather there are different models that allow you to solve different problems.  Actually, now that I think about it, perhaps ALL models are wrong, it's just that some of them are close enough that they'll do for one purpose or another.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #147 on: November 12, 2021, 04:36:55 am »
So how comes that when you eliminate the influence of the varying magnetic field on the measuring instrument KVL works perfectly?  Here are the results from 'fromjesse' (from his garage I guess?):
I have already explained how fromjesse and Mabilde obtain that reading. They are measuring the contribute of the Ecoul field in their probes. And that contribute is equal to the contribute of Ecoul in the arc they measure.
A good setup to find a partial component of the actual voltage.

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Please, open an EM book. One that is not about coloring pictures.

I have!  As a matter of fact, I tediously transcribed a whole section of one (with equations and figures!) in a similar thread a couple of years back. You know, just to make sure everybody was talking about the same f*king thing:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/does-kirchhoffs-law-hold-disagreeing-with-a-master/msg2352807/#msg2352807

Good. I have that book (a little bit too superficial for my tastes but all in all okeyish - I like his circuit book better, the old editions).
Let's see... from what you copied:

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The closed line integral is taken along the filament, directly between the capacitor plates and points 0 and 1, as indicated by the dashed line.  The contribution from the perfectly conducting filament is zero, because tangential E must be zero there; this includes the helix, surprising as that may be.

You do realize that this - and all the rest - is exactly what Lewin says in his video "Kirchhoff for the birds"  https://youtu.be/LzT_YZ0xCFY  from  minute 27? Integral of E.dl along the coil wire is zero, but voltage across the inductor L di/dt.
Did you not understand it the first time you read it?

And it seems you have yet to realize what is wrong with your pancake setup.
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline Sredni

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #148 on: November 12, 2021, 04:45:55 am »
voltage is no longer unique in a nonconservative settings.
No longer unique?  Sort of reminds me of the Second Vatican Council abolishing purgatory. 

No longer uniquely determined by endpoints alone. You need to specify the path. They are path dependent. The total electric field does not admit a potential function. The circulation of the total electric field is not always zero. rot E !=0.

So, will your definition of voltage give zero for [edit maybe this you did not get: pairs of) points on a conductor in electrostatic conditions? To be more clear when you measure VAB = VB-VA will it always be zero for all pair of points on a conductor?
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 05:03:46 am by Sredni »
All instruments lie. Usually on the bench.
 

Offline bsfeechannelTopic starter

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Re: #562 – Electroboom!
« Reply #149 on: November 12, 2021, 04:57:50 am »
That's one definition.  The whole point of my post is that there is another, whether you believe it to be an acceptable one or not.  The nature of the disagreement, IMO, is that your KVLers seem to have instinctively adopted the definition that matches my explanation of absolute voltage.  In KVL-world, your definition of voltage is what fails in a non-conservative field, not KVL. 

I was using YOUR definition of voltage, which really fails in a non conservative field, you're right.

The definition of voltage is the path integral of the electric field, which does not fail for a conservative nor for a non-conservative field.

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I think the KVLers have settled on the approach of using test probes that are perpendicular to the plane (it's not a two-dimensional universe)  and extending those leads far enough out that the rotational E-field is negligible.  So no in-plane paths.  This eliminates the 'interference' that would otherwise prevent an accurate measurement.

There's no "interference" when your probes are in the plane. Between the probes connected to R1 and R2 you'll only find the electric field that are in these resistors and nothing else.

In the KVLer approach, the probes form a loop drenched in the varying magnetic field. Funny that you mentioned a three dimensional world but you failed to consider the three dimensional loop that you configured with that arrangement.



All of the assumptions KVLers make always lead to contradictions.

That's why it is derided and dismissed as a serious theory.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2021, 05:37:02 am by bsfeechannel »
 


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