Complaining about the "broken education system" is getting old

[Rufus]

But, strong social skills combined with technical ability make for a deadly combination.

You must have excellent technical abilities in that case.....

[vxp036000]

I'll make it very simple.  I have a choice of buying from two reputable companies at the same price.  Company A is managed by a tech that insists that he is every bit as good as the guy with the PhD.  Company B is managed by the guy with the PhD in his field.  I'm going to go with the guy with the PhD.  He has demonstrated superior contributions to expanding understanding of his field in addition to providing an equal product.

My customers are the same way.  I prefer to be on equal or better footing than my customer.  It garners respect (clearly not from you).

[Uncle Vernon]

He has demonstrated superior contributions to expanding understanding of his field

Take your hand off it, before you leave stains on the walls of your cubicle!

[vxp036000]

I actually deliver a product.  Please explain how this is a facade.  What I call a facade is saying, hey, look at all my experience assembling boards, I'm an EE!  Techs are not EEs; they assemble and test what someone else has engineered.

You have a choice to work with the system or against it.  Some of you have clearly decided to go against it.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it limits your options (in pay, employment opportunities, and independance) more than you'd like to admit.

Ah, so now the masks fall off. You just admitted that all you are after is holding up a facade..... With a bunch of smooth talking paper waivers... Instead of people that now what they are doing , but dont have a blue ribbon...

Whats the name of that company you work for ? Just so i can mark in my little black book under 'do not use. Not to be trusted'

[Uncle Vernon]

I actually deliver a product.

So does the rear end of a horse!

Please explain how this is a facade.

delivering a product of little or no value perhaps? Even the horse can manage a product that is good for the roses.

What I call a facade is

You can call a donkey a chicken for all we care. Just quit demanding everyone else must adopt your illusions.

saying, hey, look at all my experience assembling boards,

You clearly have no knowledge what a tech (or for that matter a good engineer) actually does. Do you?

I'm an EE!

No your not! Real EEs don't hide behind certificate or place marketing ahead of ability. You're rapidly proving your no engineer at all.

they assemble and test what someone else has engineered.

Assemble? You couldn't be more clueless if you tried.

You have a choice to work with the system or against it.

The system? Which system is this? The market place? The industry? The "one time at band camp" references to your country?

Some of you have clearly decided to go against it.

What most have decided is that attitudes like yours are misguided.

There's nothing wrong with that, but it limits your options

Hasn't limited my options, or those of free_electron, or those our forum host or those of any number of other highly respected professionals.

more than you'd like to admit.

You sit in your cubicle and you keep believing that. Walter Mitty rides again!

[vk6zgo]

I actually deliver a product.  Please explain how this is a facade.  What I call a facade is saying, hey, look at all my experience assembling boards, I'm an EE!  Techs are not EEs; they assemble and test what someone else has engineered.

No,my friend,those people are called "Assemblers"!
As I said earlier,outside the rather artificial constraints of a production environment,"Technicians" do a lot more than that,such as commissioning, high level maintenance, testing,troubleshooting & repair of complex Electronic systems.
Have you ever had to find a fault in a TV Studio Video Tape Recorder" or a Vision Mixing Unit,do a path loss determination for an OB link?
Repair a High Power Radio or TV Transmitter,or a Microwave Link?
Do "First-In" maintenance on Diesel Standby Plant?
OtherTechs repair & test Hearing Aids,repair & calibrate Audiometers, or repair University Scientific equipment.
Some indeed,design stuff,others yet, start successful businesses ,like Uncle Vernon!

You have a choice to work with the system or against it.  Some of you have clearly decided to go against it.  There's nothing wrong with that, but it limits your options (in pay, employment opportunities, and independance) more than you'd like to admit.

Ah, so now the masks fall off. You just admitted that all you are after is holding up a facade..... With a bunch of smooth talking paper waivers... Instead of people that now what they are doing , but dont have a blue ribbon...

Whats the name of that company you work for ? Just so i can mark in my little black book under 'do not use. Not to be trusted'

Bugger! I didn't want to get back into this!

[vxp036000]

Yes, in my country, techs assemble, test boards, and repair them.  Testing and troubleshooting. Nothing more, nothing less.  Most techs are given little, if any, independence in the workplace, although I commend those that do. 

I think we are getting back to the same place we were earlier.  The EE designs a product and the tech worries about assembly, test, troubleshooting, etc.

[vk6zgo]

Yes, in my country, techs assemble, test boards, and repair them.  Testing and troubleshooting. Nothing more, nothing less.  Most techs are given little, if any, independence in the workplace, although I commend those that do. 

I think we are getting back to the same place we were earlier.  The EE designs a product and the tech worries about assembly, test, troubleshooting, etc.

I suggest you substitute " In my present workplace",for "in my Country".

Who do you really think does all the stuff I referred to in your own country?
There are many thousands of people in your country who are certainly what we would call "Technicians " in my country,in that they do not have a Degree qualification who do a lot more than in your "job description"!

Personally,I have never called myself an "Engineer",& have discouraged others from calling me one as I consider that an "Engineer " is the Degree qualified person who may have designed the systems I work on.

I have done most of the stuff which I enumerated in the previous posting,& I would suggest most people of similar Technical education will have done the same.

Any person,let alone Techs or EEs,will have horror stories of products which were designed by qualified Engineers,as well as praise for the well engineered products.
''The "All hail the great Engineering graduate" attitude grates on people,especially when you seem to be quite naive about the way the Engineering world is organised outside your own current job.

[Rufus]

The EE designs a product and the tech worries about assembly, test, troubleshooting, etc.

Someone who claims to be an EE without holding the degree will never be hired after the potential employer runs a background check.  In fact, it is outright misleading.

I design products which makes me an EE. I don't have a degree which makes me not an EE.

Resolve this paradox of your making, or, just pretend I don't exist.

[vxp036000]

No paradox at all.  An EE holds, at minimum, a four year degree.  Design jobs are generally reserved for EEs.  Having worked with numerous clients around the country, I can say that I'm certainly not alone in saying that few companies employ techs in a design role.  I personally would never have a tech design a circuit, nor would most other employers.  I suspect the only reason a tech would be designing products is because of budget concerns, which to my mind, reaks of mismanagement. 

I also find it rather interesting that most of the folks bashing a college education are the same people that don't have one.  This is no different than the owner of a Peugot bashing BMW.  I have not found a single EE degree holder that did not find their degree to be an excellent investment.

[Uncle Vernon]

An EE holds, at minimum, a four year degree.

No a minimum of four years is required to complete an institutional engineering qualification. Nothing to do with what is required to be a good or practicing EE.

Design jobs are generally reserved for EEs.

In your cubicle, they may be. Real world results exhibit a somewhat different outcome.

Having worked with numerous clients around the country

Numerous eh, I can meet numerous customers at a trade show, hardly indicative of an entire industry.

I can say that I'm certainly not alone in saying that few companies employ techs in a design role.

I'm sure you'll find many talentless goons that will support your elitist ramblings. Still wont make the assertion a correct one.

I personally would never have a tech design a circuit

Then you "personally" aren't much of an engineer or much of a manager!

nor would most other employers.

Except the thousands of notable exceptions. In your world Apple would be IBM.

I suspect the only reason a tech would be designing products is because of budget concerns,

I suspect you are a condescending w**ker.

which to my mind, reaks of mismanagement.

Just as well your mind has little or no sphere of influence then. Isn't it!
[/quote]

[free_electron]

now, after all the heated namecalling a bit of real-life ...

Here is a scenario i have firsthand...

A group of people , let's call them a 'soldering guy' , a highly skilled troubleshooting person , someone who knows how to layout perfect boards (pass emc testing first time right , perfect signal integrity throughout the board. ) and another person who is a 'serious hobbyist' but has no 'official credentials'. So this group of 4 people , each with about 15 years+ of experience, and having cobbled up and delivered numerous perfectly working prototypes, get a new manager.
This manager is fresh out of school with an 8 year degree ( he had a MSEE and a PHD in electronics) ... is going to lead this team. And oh boy, does he take charge...

First meeting we have , with a big customer out of scandinavia , makes mobile phones you know... , anyway. first meeting we have there is a couple of questions on the reference PCB layout and why we place the decoupling capacitors in specific regions. The customer had some concerns since his board real estate is at a premium and wants some advice to see if we can optimize it a bit. In the same meeting are the 2 people that designed the silicon (both of them ALSO holding PHD's but with each about 20 years of hands on design experience under the belt. The Silicon people give us the numbers of total capacitance they need and designed for. The layout person explains his strategy and the people that built and tuned the prototype assembly explain how they tuned the capacitors to get the correct result.

Before any of us can react , mr freshly minted 'manager' blurts out. But ? you have a mulitlayer board . Why don't you just put parts on inner layers . that should solve your area concerns ..

Now you have to image these two big scandinavian blokes with a heavy accent belching out this guttural laugh .... and keep going at it for about a full minute.

There were a couple of other 'accidents' like that in the next few months.
Like the time we were tasked with cost-optimizing a design. there was some glue logic required and mr super-phd came up with a schematic requiring no less than 9 different ic's. Most of them half used... So the 'techies' 'below' went over it and came up with a cleaner solution and some clevernesslike building an Or gate out of a couple of leftover nand gates ( you know , like using a nand to build an inverter and inverting the inputs of another nand that way. you do the boolean math , i have posted this as an example question when i have to interview potential candidates for employment )

Anyway. mr super phd cannot be convinced that this will work. he has to model it in VHDL and run it through the simulator to double check. At which point i formulated a nice banner to put above the door of the lab: 'more TTL, less VHDL'

You know where all these people are today ? they all Quit  , work for a different company. That group shut down and mr nitwit .. eh .. manager , now works in his parents restaurant as a server ...

So here is my question : you have a company. Who are you going to hire ? Mr blundering 'phd magna cum laude' that has no clue how a board is made and makes a total jackass of himself in front of the customer , or the  person with 15 years expierence , multiple technical patents (we're not talking design patents foolery here... these are things that sit in mass production...) to his name, having given presentations at ISCC , IMEKO , TCEE and other leading international conventions, has been published in multiple leading circulars such as IEEE magazine , elseviers Journal of computer standards and interfaces , and others. But , no officalized ' blue ribbon' ?

Tough decision ?

I know which i want ... a 1 year 'real-life' degree is worth a ten year university degree..
 
If that country you live in , or company you work for cannot come to the same conclusion ... well ... it's in a very very sad state of affairs... and it deserves to go under... real fast.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating. being able to recant the recipy after 8 years of study does not make you a good cook.... and if you make a fool of yourself by letting the milk boil over, burn your fingers on the hot whisk and setting the entire kitchen on fire on your first day , while making excuses like 'boiling milk' is for 'sous-chefs' and putting out fires is for firemen will get you very quickly where you need to be : on your behind , in the gutter while it's pouring rain.

The title 'engineer' should be something that is post-humeously, or post-retirement if you want to avoid only having dead engineers , awarded to people with a proven track record. Not after school. There you should get a nice certificate that you struggled through the paperwork. But then , for each one with 'known' and 'published' stuff there are so many that never get their 5 minutes of fame. Because they prefer to slave away in their little corner in the lab.

stuff to think about ....

it does you no good having a company with 25 phd's dreaming up the most fantasic stuff , but nobody to actually build it because they can't stand the superiority complex...

So , again : do not 'talk down' to the techs. You need them. Treat them with respect and they will respect you, each in his own field , with a lot of overlap. Pull them in on design meetings and listen to what they have to say. They can anticipate problems down the line that you could not even begine to imagine because you never go down that far ... In the end you will have a harmonious working environment that is very productive and delivers first class products.

and, most importantyl , do not seed topics like 'people without 'official credentials' sould not call themselves 'engineers'.
If it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck and looks like a duck , it is , for all intents and purposes a duck ! ( until you can prove otherwise. and no , killing it and throwing it on the barbeque to see if it tastes like duck is NOT an acceptable test ! )

[vxp036000]

The manager you describe is one of the "low-hanging fruit" on the scale of folks with a PhD.  And I would like to know specifically what his PhD was in.  Someone with a PhD in IC design isn't going to be familiar with PCBs.  Same for the PhD in signal processing.  At least with my school, no one with a PhD in RF / mixed signal design could even fathom making the bone-headed decisions you described.  Why?  Because they've design, built, and characterized those same kinds of boards in school (any reputable school, that is).  Yes, sometimes people do manage to get through school without learning anything practical circuits, but it is far from the norm.  At the end of the day, the only folks without the degree are those that aren't dedicated enough to the field to make it worth their while or simply aren't bright enough.  With most employers paying for up through a graduate degree, there is little reason not to get the paper.

now, after all the heated namecalling a bit of real-life ...

Here is a scenario i have firsthand...

A group of people , let's call them a 'soldering guy' , a highly skilled troubleshooting person , someone who knows how to layout perfect boards (pass emc testing first time right , perfect signal integrity throughout the board. ) and another person who is a 'serious hobbyist' but has no 'official credentials'. So this group of 4 people , each with about 15 years+ of experience, and having cobbled up and delivered numerous perfectly working prototypes, get a new manager.
This manager is fresh out of school with an 8 year degree ( he had a MSEE and a PHD in electronics) ... is going to lead this team. And oh boy, does he take charge...

First meeting we have , with a big customer out of scandinavia , makes mobile phones you know... , anyway. first meeting we have there is a couple of questions on the reference PCB layout and why we place the decoupling capacitors in specific regions. The customer had some concerns since his board real estate is at a premium and wants some advice to see if we can optimize it a bit. In the same meeting are the 2 people that designed the silicon (both of them ALSO holding PHD's but with each about 20 years of hands on design experience under the belt. The Silicon people give us the numbers of total capacitance they need and designed for. The layout person explains his strategy and the people that built and tuned the prototype assembly explain how they tuned the capacitors to get the correct result.

Before any of us can react , mr freshly minted 'manager' blurts out. But ? you have a mulitlayer board . Why don't you just put parts on inner layers . that should solve your area concerns ..

Now you have to image these two big scandinavian blokes with a heavy accent belching out this guttural laugh .... and keep going at it for about a full minute.

There were a couple of other 'accidents' like that in the next few months.
Like the time we were tasked with cost-optimizing a design. there was some glue logic required and mr super-phd came up with a schematic requiring no less than 9 different ic's. Most of them half used... So the 'techies' 'below' went over it and came up with a cleaner solution and some clevernesslike building an Or gate out of a couple of leftover nand gates ( you know , like using a nand to build an inverter and inverting the inputs of another nand that way. you do the boolean math , i have posted this as an example question when i have to interview potential candidates for employment )

Anyway. mr super phd cannot be convinced that this will work. he has to model it in VHDL and run it through the simulator to double check. At which point i formulated a nice banner to put above the door of the lab: 'more TTL, less VHDL'

You know where all these people are today ? they all Quit  , work for a different company. That group shut down and mr nitwit .. eh .. manager , now works in his parents restaurant as a server ...

So here is my question : you have a company. Who are you going to hire ? Mr blundering 'phd magna cum laude' that has no clue how a board is made and makes a total jackass of himself in front of the customer , or the  person with 15 years expierence , multiple technical patents (we're not talking design patents foolery here... these are things that sit in mass production...) to his name, having given presentations at ISCC , IMEKO , TCEE and other leading international conventions, has been published in multiple leading circulars such as IEEE magazine , elseviers Journal of computer standards and interfaces , and others. But , no officalized ' blue ribbon' ?

Tough decision ?

I know which i want ... a 1 year 'real-life' degree is worth a ten year university degree..
 
If that country you live in , or company you work for cannot come to the same conclusion ... well ... it's in a very very sad state of affairs... and it deserves to go under... real fast.


The proof of the pudding is in the eating. being able to recant the recipy after 8 years of study does not make you a good cook.... and if you make a fool of yourself by letting the milk boil over, burn your fingers on the hot whisk and setting the entire kitchen on fire on your first day , while making excuses like 'boiling milk' is for 'sous-chefs' and putting out fires is for firemen will get you very quickly where you need to be : on your behind , in the gutter while it's pouring rain.

The title 'engineer' should be something that is post-humeously, or post-retirement if you want to avoid only having dead engineers , awarded to people with a proven track record. Not after school. There you should get a nice certificate that you struggled through the paperwork. But then , for each one with 'known' and 'published' stuff there are so many that never get their 5 minutes of fame. Because they prefer to slave away in their little corner in the lab.

stuff to think about ....

it does you no good having a company with 25 phd's dreaming up the most fantasic stuff , but nobody to actually build it because they can't stand the superiority complex...

So , again : do not 'talk down' to the techs. You need them. Treat them with respect and they will respect you, each in his own field , with a lot of overlap. Pull them in on design meetings and listen to what they have to say. They can anticipate problems down the line that you could not even begine to imagine because you never go down that far ... In the end you will have a harmonious working environment that is very productive and delivers first class products.

and, most importantyl , do not seed topics like 'people without 'official credentials' sould not call themselves 'engineers'.
If it walks like a duck , quacks like a duck and looks like a duck , it is , for all intents and purposes a duck ! ( until you can prove otherwise. and no , killing it and throwing it on the barbeque to see if it tastes like duck is NOT an acceptable test ! )

[free_electron]

At the end of the day, the only folks without the degree are those that aren't dedicated enough to the field to make it worth their while or simply aren't bright enough.

Really ? So that is your end conclusion ?

his proves once more there are no limits to human stupididty...

[Rufus]

At the end of the day, the only folks without the degree are those that aren't dedicated enough to the field to make it worth their while or simply aren't bright enough.

Really ? So that is your end conclusion ?

You would think someone claiming to be a Beemer amongst engineers would have a better understanding of logical fallacy.

[A Hellene]

This is some food for thought:

vxp036000, if you paid for university courses on superiority attitudes, I am afraid that your investment was more than fruitful. If you paid for university courses on anything else, I am also afraid that you were probably scammed and you should consider asking them for a refund or repeating these courses...

That is because real knowledge is usually accompanied by delicacy and modesty; only the illusion of knowledge (which actually is lack of knowledge) comes with an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions. Arrogance is defined as an insulting way of thinking or behaving, which comes from the belief that someone is better, smarter, or more important than other people.

This is an excerpt from something I have written in another discussions board:

Education: There are all sorts of filtering devices to get rid of people who think independently, starting from the kindergarten and going all the way up to the university. People who don't adjust to the structure, who don't accept it and internalize, are likely to be weeded out along the way. If you finally make it to an elite institution, like the Harvard, Princeton, Yale, etc. (that depends on outside sources of support such as private wealth, big corporations with grants, and the government), you will go through a kind of socialization: They will teach you how to behave like a member of the upper classes, how to think the right thoughts, and so on. But, you will never be taught how to recognize the actual bits of information from a propaganda: "Your base has to belong to them."

In a few words, education is a widely acceptable and a desirable means of conditioning the people to be functioning in a strictly controlled fashion, under the pretext of "gaining knowledge." Two and a half millennia ago, our ancient forefathers documented in great detail these methods of creating willful bondmen, in the Allegory of the Noble Lie. Today, these methods are euphemistically called Social Engineering. Does the two and a half millennia old Allegory of The Cave (also documented by the same author) remind of our contemporary indoctrination machines called the TV and the Cinema, which the vast majority of the people globally think of as beneficial sources of news, education and entertainment? This is another excerpt from the same message, I linked to previously:

Question: How many movie titles are you aware of, that were really meant to sharpen your critical thinking? Almost every movie title available, goes through the same pattern: Introducing the problem and serving the solution -either directly or indirectly: Bed time stories for little children... In the long run, you are actually being conditioned not to be searching for answers, but to wait for them to be served to you. You will need to try really hard to find a title that leaves the spectator or the reader with no answers provided, in order to start them thinking.

If we are making the people smart enough to be pressing the right buttons in the right order but dumb enough for anything else, this is not education; it is conditioning. If we are making the people able to memorise anything required in order to receive paper qualifications, but also unable of thinking on their own, this is not education; it is conditioning. If we are making our pets to be doing somersaults on demand, this is not education; it is conditioning.

After all, creativity is not something that can be taught or be given; it can only be earned...

To push this even further, has anyone ever considered the possibility of the Education/Academic Degrees being distinctions of the degree-holders as better assets for the tax-farms they belong to? Better assets, in comparison to the non-degree holders?


-George

[vxp036000]

My experience has been that upper level educational institutions encourage out-of-the-box thinking far more than any other environment.  I might add that no one can make it through a graduate school based on memorization.  Cheating, possibly, but not memorization.  Heck, the instructors even handed out a cheat sheet with the basic formulas.  Why?  They knew that the exams required critical thinking skills, not memorization.  Those who tried to memorize their way through school never made it passed the first few classes.  The test questions that showed up were, for example, circuit configurations that none of the students had seen before and were asked to characterize.  This doesn't require memorization, it requires understanding how to analyze a circuit.  And what better way to demonstrate that than show a crazy design that looks completely different than anything in the book?

On one of our final exams, the instructor gave us the schematic of an audio amplifier (mixed BJT and MOS, at that) from an IC he designed.  Not sure how that could be considered impractical.

Most of you have also overlooked the fact the most of the grade in graduate school is based on real-world projects; i.e., designing, building, and characterizing circuits.  You could ace the exams and fail a class because you messed up a design.  Your statements primarily apply to undergraduate schools, and poor ones at that.

And you know why the degree holder's make better assets to the tax farms?  They have considerably higher income.  In my country, the average tech makes $40 k.  The average PhD EE: $110 k.  For some reason, companies think the guy with the PhD is more valueable.  Who would have guessed...

[vxp036000]

Btw, free_electron and A. Hellene, I respect your opinions because you guys have been very rational in this discussion, although we hold very different viewpoints.  The rest of you could learn something from these two.

[Ajahn Lambda]

[ quote from deleted post removed ]
***



What's your deal, dude?  I removed my post because I thought it was disrespectful, and I admit that.  I never threatened you or anything of the sort, but what you're doing is very immature. 


I still think your statement was foolish; didn't it ever occur to you that there are other, external factors in a human being's life?  Mental illness?  Pregnancy?  Cancer?  Or are you in complete control of your genetics and environment?

[Uncle Vernon]

The rest of you could learn something from these two.

That is the difference between other respondents and you! Most here can and will continue to learn. We learn of each other, learn off those with more experience and  those with different experience. The day you stop learning is the day you need to book a funeral.

You on the other hand have learnt nothing! Eight years of university and you've learnt nothing other than how to behave like an elitist prat!

You haven't earned any respect here, quite the opposite. Within a few posts most have written you of as a tool. And yet you crave their respect, this must eat you out.  The keyboard warrior threats of legal action really do mark you out as one of life's losers!

You can talk at others all you like they all stop listening after two or three posts, no one has time for a jackass, other than to call their nonsense for a few milliseconds of Internet pleasure.

So without further notice, to help satiate your cravings for recognition, I nominate vxp036000 as "2012 Internet Tool among Tools" (Elitist Prat Division).  Why not toddle off now an threaten some kiddies, you and your attitude will not be missed by anyone here, you pitiful W**ker!

[vxp036000]

Not looking for respect.  But, "complaining about the "broken education system" is getting old" rings very true for folks that actually put the time and effort into a degree.

Seriously, vxp036000 is obviously a giant troll even if that isn't his intent. This thread just needs to end and stop stirring the pot for absolutely zero tangible gain.

[jerry507]

You need to step outside your own little experience with this world. The "broken educational system" is indeed broken. Your employer will not given two craps that you personally put in a bunch of effort to get a degree. He expects you to work and be profitable. From this angle, the educational system IS broken from the perspective of most businesses. While you may graduate and be quite useful right off the bat (I understand your POV, I also had a huge amount of practical experience coming out of school), it's certainly not common for this to happen. Universities did deliver graduates with practical skills some time ago, and that has generally ceased to happen. There can be no debate about that.

I am as puzzled as you how this turned into a giant bitchfest between engineers and techs, because that has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of engineering graduates. The skills Dave and others have talked about are absolutely required knowledge of any well rounded engineer. And if you don't believe that to be the case, you are useful only in large companies that can afford to have a lot of niche people. Engineers are WIDELY employed in places where this isn't the case, and even in large companies you can easily find yourself in a situation where you don't have access to those people either easily or quickly. It just pays to know how to do this stuff.

Above all else you must realize that Dave et al aren't saying YOU, vxp036000, are a trash engineer who isn't worth a damn. They're saying the theoretical mean engineering graduate isn't nearly what he (and for sure she as they existed in far smaller numbers) used to be.

[Uncle Vernon]

put the time and effort into a degree.

Why not put some time and effort into manners and humility! Never know, with  effort it could actually gain you some of that respect you crave!

[vxp036000]

I'm not sure that schools have degraded as much as you say.  It's certainly true that there are good schools and those that aren't so good.  I think ultimately students get exactly as much out of school as they put into it.  Someone who graduated from, say, MIT or Purdue, by putting in the minimum effort will not be much better off than someone that didn't go to school.  But, someone who puts everything and then some into learning as much as possible from the school, will likely end up better off for it. 

What do you propose as a solution?  There will always be those that are motivated to learn and those that are there just to get a decent job.  I suppose raising the standards couldn't hurt, but now you're trying to cram even more into an already fast paced four year degree.

I'm not discarding the practical aspects of engineering.  But it is very possible to learn this as well as the theoretical side of things from a university.  And it is probably easier for most students to learn this way than on their own.  Have you tried teaching yourself electromagnetic?  It isn't easy.  I think it is extremely important to have both practical skills as well as a strong understanding of the physics; if nothing else, it allows you to see past most of the marketing BS that is floating around nowadays, whether it be some super-efficient high Q antenna, temp sensing diodes (don't even get me started, they aren't diodes at all!), and the list goes on.  That's not to say that some of these creations aren't useful, but someone with solely a practical background completely misunderstood the results they were getting.  Yes, I will admit that some degreed folks fall into the same trap, and I have little respect for them either.

You need to step outside your own little experience with this world. The "broken educational system" is indeed broken. Your employer will not given two craps that you personally put in a bunch of effort to get a degree. He expects you to work and be profitable. From this angle, the educational system IS broken from the perspective of most businesses. While you may graduate and be quite useful right off the bat (I understand your POV, I also had a huge amount of practical experience coming out of school), it's certainly not common for this to happen. Universities did deliver graduates with practical skills some time ago, and that has generally ceased to happen. There can be no debate about that.

I am as puzzled as you how this turned into a giant bitchfest between engineers and techs, because that has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of engineering graduates. The skills Dave and others have talked about are absolutely required knowledge of any well rounded engineer. And if you don't believe that to be the case, you are useful only in large companies that can afford to have a lot of niche people. Engineers are WIDELY employed in places where this isn't the case, and even in large companies you can easily find yourself in a situation where you don't have access to those people either easily or quickly. It just pays to know how to do this stuff.

Above all else you must realize that Dave et al aren't saying YOU, vxp036000, are a trash engineer who isn't worth a damn. They're saying the theoretical mean engineering graduate isn't nearly what he (and for sure she as they existed in far smaller numbers) used to be.

[vk6zgo]

The manager you describe is one of the "low-hanging fruit" on the scale of folks with a PhD.  And I would like to know specifically what his PhD was in.  Someone with a PhD in IC design isn't going to be familiar with PCBs.  Same for the PhD in signal processing.  At least with my school, no one with a PhD in RF / mixed signal design could even fathom making the bone-headed decisions you described.  Why?  Because they've design, built, and characterized those same kinds of boards in school (any reputable school, that is).  Yes, sometimes people do manage to get through school without learning anything practical circuits, but it is far from the norm.  At the end of the day, the only folks without the degree are those that aren't dedicated enough to the field to make it worth their while or simply aren't bright  enough. With most employers paying for up through a graduate degree, there is little reason not to get the paper.

Unfortunately,for those of us with insufficient means,there is a third reason why we may not undertake a Degree course,-------Simple economic survival!
You,somehow managed to keep body & soul together for 8 years at University.
I can only surmise,that either:-
(1) You have independent means of your own.
(2) You have wealthy parents.
(3) You have an enormous Student Loan.
(4) You worked your way with various menial jobs---If so, Bravo!!

(3) & (4) are the ONLY options left for most of us,so you will find most people opt for the less prestigious path of becoming a Technician.
Anyone with family responsibilities has to balance his/her "dedication" to self improvement against that required by the family.
Your comment is a fancy way of saying that people without a degree are lazy or stupid!.
And then you wonder why Techs get upset!