Author Topic: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope  (Read 4166 times)

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Offline DeTopic starter

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1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« on: December 10, 2023, 01:18:06 am »
Hi All,
it appears that this year my new hobby company brought some income and I would like to use the revenue to get some equipment home.
I have about a 1000 euro that I would like to spend for an oscilloscope. I know that the model depends on what I am going to use it for and for me it's a tough question. I would like to get into electronics and luckily have the budget to spend.  I'd like to look into the servo motors and the RF devices and understand better how things work. Thus It should probably be a well rounded scope that will last me for the next 10years or so as i will learn etc.

Was looking at Rigol DHO924S https://rigolshop.eu/dho924s.html  as it's just a good fit for the budget but maybe there are deferent things I should look at and consider ?

PS.
please It'äs a bit of a luxury problem. I don't want to go cheap. I want to spend 1000 eur on the company hardware, otherwise they will be gone in food or taxes and all that.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 11:07:31 pm by De »
 

Offline MarkT

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2023, 02:23:24 am »
It looks like the Siglent model at that price point is one of the SDS2000X series - probably worth comparing to the Rigol.

Many modern RF devices are way out of reach of a budget scope, note.  Even ISM bands go upto 915MHz, WiFi starts at 2.4GHz, etc.  A spectrum analyzer is more appropriate in many cases for RF work.
 
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Offline u666sa

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2023, 04:33:44 am »
I heard from dudes rigols are noisy. Which further reafirmed by purchase decision. SDS1104X-E, and you can hack it to 200 MHz. You can even go extra cheap and still get a good one. You can even get Owon HDS2202S for like really cheap https://aliexpress.ru/item/1005003764438360.html

Let's face it. You don't need an expensive oscilloscope. It's not used often. Most of the time it will be sitting collecting dust. In repair industry for me, last time I used it was yesterday, to check the clock on memory chip. Before that, I wasn't using it perhaps two weeks.  :-//


And you will have to be comparing local buying options VS. foreign. Because of customs.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 04:39:39 am by u666sa »
 

Offline JeremyC

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2023, 05:32:47 am »
Hi All,
it appears that this year my new hobby company brought some income and I would like to use the revenue to get some equipment home.
I have about a 1000 euro that I would like to spend for an oscilloscope. I know that the model depends on what I am going to use it for and for me it's a tough question. I would like to get into electronics and luckily have the budget to spend.  I'd like to look into the servo motors and the RF devices and understand better how things work. Thus It should probably be a well rounded scope that will last me for the next 10years or so as i will learn etc.

Was looking at Rigol DHO924S https://rigolshop.eu/dho924s.html  as it's just a good fit for the budget but maybe there are deferent things I should look at and consider ?

If you are targeting 12 bit scopes the DHO924S maybe good option. I suggest to check threads about hacking the 914 to 924,
it may save you ~100 euro.
I believe the noise front end in Rigol scopes applied to the older 8 bit series.
If you can wait 1 - 2 months check also the new SDS800 HD series from Siglent.

If you don’t have needs for 12 bit scope I would recommend the Siglent SDS2104X Plus, you can easily convert it in 500MHz scope (check thread on EEVblog). However it’s a little bit more than 1000 euro.
In my opinion Siglent scopes have the best FFT implementation on the market.

Good luck...
« Last Edit: December 10, 2023, 05:34:29 am by JeremyC »
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2023, 10:41:16 am »
I would avoid the digitals till you learn on an anglog scope

A  2 ch 10 or 20 MHz fine for basic beginner use.


We Got three analog Hameg scopes in EU for between EU 5...40.


Go to the modern digital after you are experienced on an analog scope.

j
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 

Offline tooki

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2023, 11:14:06 am »
Many modern RF devices are way out of reach of a budget scope, note.  Even ISM bands go upto 915MHz, WiFi starts at 2.4GHz, etc.  A spectrum analyzer is more appropriate in many cases for RF work.
The ISM bands go way beyond 915MHz. DECT, Zigbee, Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, among many different unlicensed radio systems, by design operate in ISM bands. That’s why you don’t need a license for your Wi-Fi router and Bluetooth mouse.

The highest worldwide ISM band is 24GHz, but in some areas higher bands, up to 244GHz, are allocated.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2023, 11:14:59 am »
I would avoid the digitals till you learn on an anglog scope

A  2 ch 10 or 20 MHz fine for basic beginner use.


We Got three analog Hameg scopes in EU for between EU 5...40.


Go to the modern digital after you are experienced on an analog scope.

j
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.
 
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Offline Siwastaja

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2023, 11:55:15 am »
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.

This. Here's better advice: as always, ignore jonpaul.
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2023, 03:44:43 pm »
 Hi: Really rude comments...  Advantages of  analog scope for a beginner:

Walk before you can run...
Save $
Learn
avoid   issues in digital scopes 

j
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 

Online langwadt

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2023, 05:00:20 pm »
Hi: Really rude comments...  Advantages of  analog scope for a beginner:

None, what so ever
 
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Offline u666sa

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2023, 08:57:19 pm »
Scopes takes about three weeks to catch up, perhaps faster if you use it often. It's simplier than TI-83 calculator.  :-+
Some advanced stuff will come later down the road of course, no big deal.
 

Offline Haenk

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2023, 01:52:38 pm »
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.

Actually, there is!
If you kill your scope while trying things out, it's not a huge loss, just buy another one for cheap.
Whole different story if you kill your 1k scope on the second day :)
(Other than that, there really is no point in going vintage.)
 

Offline Zenith

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2023, 02:13:04 pm »
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.

Easy to use, cheap and good enough for a lot of things. I have both a DSO and analogue scopes and I usually use the DSO. It's small and comes with nice extras such as a good enough for most things frequency counter and voltage readouts. For some things an analogue scope is nicer.

In this case it sounds as if it's the O/P's first scope and he doesn't know that much about them. He doesn't have a clear definition of his needs. Just because he wants a scope and has 1,000 € to spend, doesn't mean it's a great idea to splash it all on a scope.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2023, 08:33:01 pm »
Hi: Really rude comments...  Advantages of  analog scope for a beginner:

Walk before you can run...
Save $
Learn
avoid   issues in digital scopes 
Used DSOs exist, too.

I disagree 1000% with your characterization of operating a DSO as “running” while analog is “walking”. I think a DSO is, ultimately, more beginner-friendly than an analog scope. If you’re stuck, you can always press “autoset” to at least get you to some kind of recognizable state. A beginner on an analog scope can easily be in a configuration they don’t know how to get out of, other than completely randomly pressing buttons and turning knobs.

Analog scopes have “issues” (=limitations), too. And many of them are really significant, like not being able to do a single trigger and hold the image of a transient event for subsequent observation. (Analog storage oscilloscopes did exist, but were exotic and spectacularly expensive devices. One of those today, used, is probably worth more than a basic new DSO, as a museum piece.) They’re much larger and heavier. Usually only 2 channels, while most DSOs have 4.


I feel like you’re basically advocating “hazing by CRO”. But IMHO an appeal to tradition is not in itself a valid argument.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2023, 08:33:49 pm »
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.

Actually, there is!
If you kill your scope while trying things out, it's not a huge loss, just buy another one for cheap.
Whole different story if you kill your 1k scope on the second day :)
(Other than that, there really is no point in going vintage.)
If blowing it up is a concern, one could buy a used DSO…
 
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Offline Doctorandus_P

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #15 on: December 13, 2023, 09:21:28 am »
Analog scopes can still do what they used to do for the last 50 to 100 years, but the only sensible argument for buying an analog scope is if it some second hand thing for EUR 50, or maybe up to EUR100 if it is a really fancy one.

But a more important question is: Do you already have experience with an oscilloscope, or is this your first one?

I recently bought a new Siglent SDS1104X-E (100MHz, 4 channel) scope. I paid around EUR460 for it and it is already more scope then I would need. My previous scope was a Rigol DS1052E and I never liked it much. On-screen measurements and FFT are so bad on that thing it's unusable, and it's rotary encoders started glitching  within a few months.

But why spend EUR 1000?  Pretty decent digital scopes start around EUR350 new. EUR 1000 is a bit of a difficult budget, It's easy to buy more scope then you need, or the wrong one. EUR1000 is also still quite low if you're interested in a "traditional western brand" oscilloscope.

I also see the scope you selected has 16 digital channels. That is nice to have of course, but I bought a separate logic analyzer (Kings LA2016 16 channels 200Msps EUR130) There is an advantage of having both analog and digital in the same device, but I find the price difference too big. I also prefer the much bigger PC monitor and mouse + keyboard navigation for a logic analyzer.

My gut feeling is you get an lot of oscilloscope for EUR500, and EUR1000 does not get you much more. Especially Rigol & Siglent are fighting in the "entry market", and they probably can't make much profit there, while for EUR1000, you get a bit more bandwidth and some digital channels. (Total BOM cost probably less then EUR 50) and most of the money goes to their profit margins.
 

Offline DeTopic starter

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #16 on: December 13, 2023, 11:14:28 pm »
good reasoning but some models for my undefined needs would be very appreciated.  ::)
 

Offline DeTopic starter

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #17 on: December 13, 2023, 11:18:23 pm »
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.

Easy to use, cheap and good enough for a lot of things. I have both a DSO and analogue scopes and I usually use the DSO. It's small and comes with nice extras such as a good enough for most things frequency counter and voltage readouts. For some things an analogue scope is nicer.

In this case it sounds as if it's the O/P's first scope and he doesn't know that much about them. He doesn't have a clear definition of his needs. Just because he wants a scope and has 1,000 € to spend, doesn't mean it's a great idea to splash it all on a scope.

I literally beg you to be specific, if you can formulate a need for me please go ahead and suggest the alternative equipment...
 

Offline DeTopic starter

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2023, 11:24:36 pm »

If you are targeting 12 bit scopes the DHO924S maybe good option. I suggest to check threads about hacking the 914 to 924,
it may save you ~100 euro.
I believe the noise front end in Rigol scopes applied to the older 8 bit series.
If you can wait 1 - 2 months check also the new SDS800 HD series from Siglent.

If you don’t have needs for 12 bit scope I would recommend the Siglent SDS2104X Plus, you can easily convert it in 500MHz scope (check thread on EEVblog). However it’s a little bit more than 1000 euro.
In my opinion Siglent scopes have the best FFT implementation on the market.

Good luck...

Thank you!
Siglent SDS2104X Plus looks still within the reach. It's 1200 eur. Without the bundle pack that they offer now for extra 250 or so.
What would be a better investment for the future , Siglent SDS2104X Plus or DHO924S , from your point ?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2023, 11:27:07 pm by De »
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #19 on: December 14, 2023, 12:02:53 am »
Rebbonjour a tous:


I have used both analog CRT and digital scopes and each has its place.

The analog CRT are gernerally more robust and have no issues in aliasing, quantization, and generally less noise than digital.

We prefer TEK analog especially the last (and very best!) CRT, 2465B, 2467B.

For digital we have had Yokogawa Japanese scipes sicne 1993.

Easy to use, fine connectivity and well designed.

In EU we have found several German Hameg HM series andalog, HM103, HM203 and HM204 for EU 5>>25>>40.

You can sonetiems firnd bargins at flea markets, ham radio meets and siletn key auctions.

Beware that analog scopes are typically easy to damage in shipment, the glass CRT.

Bon chance!


Jon
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Offline BillyO

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #20 on: December 14, 2023, 04:48:45 am »
Thank you!
Siglent SDS2104X Plus looks still within the reach. It's 1200 eur. Without the bundle pack that they offer now for extra 250 or so.
What would be a better investment for the future , Siglent SDS2104X Plus or DHO924S , from your point ?

I have no hands on experience with the Rigol but see it's only advantage over the SDS2104XP being the 12 bits and the HDMI out.  I hear the Rigol can be "persuaded" to operate at 200MHz but the Siglent can be "improved" for no cost to over 600MHz.  THis will be a lot better for RF needs.  The Siglent does have a 10 bit mode too at reduced BW, but if 12 bits is paramount to your needs then the Rigol would be best.  For me the 600MHz bandwidth is far more important than the 12 bit resolution of the Rigol.

Also, it may just be my opinion, but the Rigol seems like a toy.  It's tiny, noisy and has an external power supply and some have noted that it's UI is not yet very polished.  They may improve that over time with firmware updates, but it seems apparent Rigol have a track record of not doing that.

Support is another consideration.  I'm not familiar with Rigol support, but the support I get from Siglent is amazing.  They give me the best support I have ever gotten on any product I have ever worked with.  Personally or professionally.

You need to do some homework and decide what it is you really want, but from your initial post I'd have to suggest the Siglent.  If you can swing the additional cost and really want the 12 bits, look at the SDS2104X HD.  It offers the beat of both.


« Last Edit: December 14, 2023, 04:56:35 am by BillyO »
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Want to see an old guy fumble around re-learning a career left 40 years ago?  Well, look no further .. https://www.youtube.com/@uni-byte
 
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Offline Zenith

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #21 on: December 14, 2023, 05:03:25 am »
Completely pointless advice IMHO. I don’t see any advantage whatsoever in starting with an analog scope.

Easy to use, cheap and good enough for a lot of things. I have both a DSO and analogue scopes and I usually use the DSO. It's small and comes with nice extras such as a good enough for most things frequency counter and voltage readouts. For some things an analogue scope is nicer.

In this case it sounds as if it's the O/P's first scope and he doesn't know that much about them. He doesn't have a clear definition of his needs. Just because he wants a scope and has 1,000 € to spend, doesn't mean it's a great idea to splash it all on a scope.

I literally beg you to be specific, if you can formulate a need for me please go ahead and suggest the alternative equipment...
Unfortunately my crystal ball is away at the cleaners. You ought to know the sort of things you are interested in and want to investigate. If you want to spend €1,000 on an oscilloscope look at the Rigol or Siglent closest to €1,000 and buy that. Spend between €400 and €500 on the scope, which for most of us would be more than adequate, and you have about the same to spend on other things, such as a function generator, power supply, very good digital multimeter, or whatever combination fits your needs and budget.

If you are learning basic electronics, oscillators, amplifiers, filters, op amps etc, then a used 20MHz Hameg for €50 will take you a long way, and you certainly don't need to spend €1,000.
 

Offline DeTopic starter

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2023, 04:48:04 pm »

Unfortunately my crystal ball is away at the cleaners. You ought to know the sort of things you are interested in and want to investigate. If you want to spend €1,000 on an oscilloscope look at the Rigol or Siglent closest to €1,000 and buy that. Spend between €400 and €500 on the scope, which for most of us would be more than adequate, and you have about the same to spend on other things, such as a function generator, power supply, very good digital multimeter, or whatever combination fits your needs and budget.

If you are learning basic electronics, oscillators, amplifiers, filters, op amps etc, then a used 20MHz Hameg for €50 will take you a long way, and you certainly don't need to spend €1,000.

Well, this still leaves me with exact same question i had at the beginning.
However I am looking now at the SDS2104X Plus as well
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2023, 05:25:15 pm »
I THINK that the Sigilent scopes appear to be the best buy for the buck, bought NEW. 
If you say you have to burn 1K EUR especially. 
Watch the Scope tutorial at the top of the page first. Make a list of functions you think you want.
Then look at the functions available on the scopes you are considering., Then look for discounts.. 

I have only owned 20 scopes and use a Digital Agilent 54820 scope at present. These are getting old and are big,  but seem to work fine. They are still expensive used. Maybe someone would comment on their capabilities as compared to Sigilent...
CRT scopes are getting old also I have two, a Tek and an HP 1980, which cost 20K USD when new in 1985.There are still good reasons to have an analog scope (the 1980 is advertised as Digital).   
To us ole timers the new scopes can be aggravating because their controls are different or at least respond differently and you can get different traces with different sampling etc... But there is always the autoscope function.....

Make sure the scope has the functions that you think you will need or like. An example is a 50 ohm input setting. Ability to use an external monitor maybe...  maybe a bigger footprint if you want it to sit still on the bench and not move around when you use the cables....etc
The Fournier Functions on scopes I have seen are much better than nothing but not as good as a cheap Spectrum
Analyzer.  A really cheap Logic Analyzer is better than the ones in scopes.  So I would buy a scope based on its scope functions first. Then secondarily worry about it's Logic Ability. They pretty much all come with FFT, some much better than others. 
Also consider probe costs. There are lots of cheap knock off probes that are really good if you are under 500 MHzz, above 500. More Expensive.
I do think that buying a cheap analog and learning is a good idea, but also we are in the 21st century and analog scopes are kinda antiques....and too many need repair. And you are telling us you need to make the purchase soon rather than wait to learn how to use an old scope.

Good Luck!!!


 
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Offline Solder_Junkie

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Re: 1000 EUR Oscilloscope
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2023, 07:14:29 pm »
As both a home builder of equipment, and someone who spent their working life repairing electronic equipment for a major European manufacturer (who also made oscilloscopes), perhaps I can make a suggestion or two…

Chinese ‘scopes are “OK” for home use, but are cheaply made. I have a Rigol DS1054z, the good points are:

Low cost
4 channels which can be handy at times
Doesn’t take up much space, easy and light to carry.
The 1054z used to be easily “hacked” to 100 MHz and give extra features (maybe can still be done). The hack could be reversed in case of needing repair.

The bad points:
The supplied probes are poor, factor in the cost of buying a set of better ones.
The rotary encoders are poor, one of mine has become intermittent.

Regarding those advocating buying an analog scope to start with, check the mainstream manufacturers… you won’t find one, the world and his dog use digital scopes, they are easier to use and the triggering is vastly superior. Knowing what signal to expect, I can preset my Rigol and capture a transient event “1st go”, and have it stay on the screen, which isn’t something an old analog would manage.

Personally, and as suggested by others, unless you have a real need, don’t waste money on an expensive scope, even in the service industry they tend to gather dust on the workshop shelf. 500 euros should easily get you something useful. Put the spare cash into a decent multimeter (a USA made Fluke with a lifetime warranty, that won’t burst into flames when you test the mains supply on Ohms) and a good soldering station (Hakko or Weller).

SJ
 
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