Author Topic: 220v SSR relay voltage leak  (Read 1636 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline simonboydfoley

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
220v SSR relay voltage leak
« on: March 02, 2018, 10:48:48 pm »
 I'm doing research into using a SSR to switch mains voltage to a 2Kw  heater with thermal runaway protection based on Arduino mega code and a DBT11 temp sensor to keep temps in a small enclosure.(74x74x74cm) constant 60C  Max current draw = 9 (10 amp safety margin). I understand that SSR do not provide  infinite resistance and this will cause 20v leakage. Is there any reference documentation anybody can point me to on how to manage this issue to prevent current triggering electronics downstream of the SSR. It seems to me a ceramic bi pole capacitor in parallel with the main load should bleed  current at a frequency greater than 30Hz to fix the Issue. any good docs people can point me at ?
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 12:53:04 am by simonboydfoley »
 

Offline kony

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 239
  • Country: cz
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leek
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2018, 11:05:30 pm »
If it is safety related, I'd suggest contactor (combined with SSR if the device is regulating the heating element temperature as well).
It's not really stray voltage per se, the SSR has some small off-state leakage current (you will find it in datasheet), so the voltage will be load dependent and shunting it with capacitor won't do much.
 
The following users thanked this post: simonboydfoley

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: pt
  • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leek
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2018, 11:09:59 pm »
I've always used Crydom SSR's. Check Google or Crydom for tech papers.
http://www.crydom.com/en/Service/Crydom_TechTraining.pdf
https://www.element14.com/community/servlet/JiveServlet/downloadBody/41989-102-3-246924/Solid%20Statements%20-%20Protecting%20AC%20Output%20SSRs%20against%20voltage%20transient%20phenomena.pdf

Or from the output, drive an isolation transformer 1:1, as the leakage current will be too low for the transformer to "energize" itself.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2018, 11:15:34 pm by Quarlo Klobrigney »
Voltage does not flow, nor does it go.
 
The following users thanked this post: simonboydfoley

Offline AllTheGearNoIdea

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 261
  • Country: gb
    • AllTheGearNoIdea
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leek
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2018, 09:15:55 am »
I think SSR switching can cover a multitude of devices. I have used Triacs many times in the past and never been aware of leakage apart from the supporting snubber network. These snubber can be pain for contactors as well regarding LED lighting. Not sure from your post but what was the concern regarding the leakage.  As others have said you should probably back up with a thermal fuse or mechanical thermal switch.

Chris
AllTheGearNoIdea Where Its All About The Gear
 
The following users thanked this post: simonboydfoley

Online Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13813
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leek
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2018, 10:18:29 am »
If this is safety critical, a thermal fuse should be connected in series with the heater, to prevent fire, if the solid state relay or temperature controller fails.
 
The following users thanked this post: simonboydfoley

Offline simonboydfoley

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 9
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leek
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2018, 12:52:18 am »
Thanks all,
              apologies for the slow response .... I need to see if I can set up email triggers. I will research the answers, have not touched electronics for 10 years so I'm a bit rusty. I like the idea about the thermal resistor but essentially I am using an raspberry Pi or an Arduino Mega to measure the temperature of the enclosure ( for a 3d printer) using a DHT11 Sensor in the enclosure. The heater itself will be a a commercial small space heater that I will switch on and off via the SSR being controlled via GPIO inputs to a FOTEK SSR-40-DA. This SSR will switch on and off the AC current to the heater. As you have to leave 3d printers running remotely I need to be extra cautious of the safety aspects. There is no need for a temperature resistor because the SSR circuitry will be downstream of the space heater which will be in the enclosure. Thermal runaway protection will be in software where the DHT11 sensor in the enclosure which will cut the power if the temperature does not rise quickly enough (heater malfunction / short) or if the temperatures rise too quickly. I will also use another SSR 40 DA to connect to the electronics of the printer (220v AC to a 360w 12v DC Power supply) which will be outside of the enclosure. Its the printer electronics that I really need to protect from the bleed voltage of the SSR otherwise it will keep switching itself on all the time and it also provides 12v to a heated bed on the printer in the enclosure. I will add a 10A fuse to the ssr electronics as well s surge protection device on the socket itself  ... but to kill the 20v bleed voltage from even starting up the 12v melzi boards electronics ... i'm looking for common practice on how to kill the ~ 20v bleed voltage. I need to understand a SSR better as a capacitor in parallel with mains load resistance wont help as the AC frequency wont change to alter the impedance of the capacitor when it goes from 20V AC bleed to 220V AC mains (like an 10:1 switchable oscilloscope probe leverages). Im brain storming here and need to do more research. thx all for your help.   
« Last Edit: March 06, 2018, 12:56:02 am by simonboydfoley »
 

Online Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13813
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leak
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2018, 11:57:18 am »
If you split your post into multiple paragraphs, it would be easier to read.

I think you've overlooked the importance of a thermal fuse. Relays, including the solid state variety, have a nasty habit of failing on, which can cause a fire if it's over-temperature and can't turn off. When safety is concerned, you need to consider what can go wrong, more than what it should be doing, when it's working properly.
 

Offline max_torque

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1091
  • Country: gb
    • bitdynamics
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leek
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2018, 12:08:12 pm »
Thermal runaway protection will be in software

Words that should strike fear into the heart of any engineer reading them!

By all means, include suitable software functionality as a first line of defense. However you need to include a LAST LINE defense, using a thermal fuse to disconnect the heaters should a scenario occur that results in them staying on.  Just sat here i can think of 5 or 6 likely to occur scenarios that can easily occur, from SSRs shorting on, to simple coding mistakes negating the safety cut off function etc etc.

Most commercially sold resistive heaters actually already include that thermal fuse, so check, they may already be fitted!
 

Offline wraper

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 11032
  • Country: lv
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leak
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2018, 12:25:02 pm »
If you do care a tiny bit about safety, then don't use fake SSR from ebay. Not only they are not safe but also are way weaker than ratings written on them.
 

Offline Beamin

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1439
  • Country: us
  • If you think my Boobs are big you should see my ba
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leak
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2018, 01:32:34 pm »
SSR aren't really relays at all but rather just transistor based switches in a convenient enclosure? Are they specifically engineered to act just like relays less the problems with inductor voltage spikes?
Max characters: 300; characters remaining: 191
Images in your signature must be no greater than 500x25 pixels
 

Offline Quarlo Klobrigney

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 568
  • Country: pt
  • Behind every alfoil hat is a genius
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leak
« Reply #10 on: March 07, 2018, 02:07:56 am »
Could be SCR's but they are mostly TRIACS not transistors. They also are convenient in that they have a heatsink.
SSR aren't really relays at all but rather just transistor based switches in a convenient enclosure?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2018, 02:09:36 am by Quarlo Klobrigney »
Voltage does not flow, nor does it go.
 

Online Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13813
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: 220v SSR relay voltage leak
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2018, 02:49:12 pm »
Could be SCR's but they are mostly TRIACS not transistors. They also are convenient in that they have a heatsink.
SSR aren't really relays at all but rather just transistor based switches in a convenient enclosure?
It depends on whether the SSR is designed to switch DC, AC or either. AC SSRs do use a TRIAC or two SCRs. A DC SSR will have a MOSFET output and one designed for either DC or AC will have two MOSFETs, connected back-to-back.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf