Author Topic: "practical electronics handbook" by Ian Sinclair and John Dunton - RIP OFF (Read 15697 times)

Simon · « **on:** July 30, 2010, 08:17:45 pm »

Well luckily i have a PDF copy of this book that I scvenged off the net (I think a user from another forum sent it to me) rather than wasting my money on it and really now that I'm reading it i'm getting all the more dismayed ! I really hate these "new fangled" books written purely for profit. The book is scimping on important explanations almost as though it assumes you know about the subject (which i do hence my picking up on these mishaps where a real novice would be left in limbo), diagrams are on different pages while the text starts talking about other topics really it is poorly laid out, poorly written and the diagrams are in my opinion not always following conventions and do have errors like a stray diagonal wire basically shorting a part out. Really when is it that people will go back to wrting about electronics as a passion and not just to rip us off. This books wrting style is almost as bad as Mike Predco writing about pics, I get that feeling that either I'm dumb and not getting it or that the author is ripping me off.

Well rant over - ye be warned, I was hoping this was going to be a lighter read than "the art of electronics" just to refresh my memory and pick up a few more details here and there but looks like I'll have to go with the more hardcore "the art of electronics" (that is a bit too in depth at times for a hobbiest) when i actually want to know something and read this one for "entertainment" value

saturation · « **Reply #1 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:48:47 pm »

Sorry to hear. The book recommendation list here I think is top notch:

http://www.electronics-related.com/books.php

There are not that many, but I think they cover the field.

Simon · « **Reply #2 on:** July 30, 2010, 08:54:25 pm »

thanks, my main point was to point out that this book is not a good option for beginers due to it's incompete and glossed over explanations. Just read that LDO regs dissipate less and are more efficient than normal regs.... eer yea but they forgot to mention the whole scenario, if your still dropping the same voltage it won't make any difference.

ElektroQuark · « **Reply #3 on:** July 31, 2010, 06:18:46 am »

You have an email.

Simon · « **Reply #4 on:** July 31, 2010, 06:55:20 am »

Quote from: EdoNork on July 31, 2010, 06:18:46 am

You have an email.

Err no I don't, and I can't see anything in my spam box either, maybe you want to PM me

Zero999 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 31, 2010, 07:48:27 am »

I think he was asking you whether you have an email address.

Yes of course he does, check his profile, it's there.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=58

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #6 on:** July 31, 2010, 07:53:12 am »

thanx to EdoNork and Simon to care sending me a copy. From the way i see, it is written the way the Art of Electronics is. just a general discussion on certain topic which you should already have a background on it. well i dont think the almost 600 pages book is written for nothing. quite some info there, its just, again just like AOE, it touches nothing (or very little) about theoritical side (but no practical side either!). generally.. i think its a another side by side to AOE book, but thats just my quick look of opinion.

and i agree that the book's topic is misleading as it says "PRACTICAL" electronics handbook, i dont see much practical on it (even though i can see some simple circuitry inthere), only more towards descriptions on things.

Simon · « **Reply #7 on:** July 31, 2010, 08:00:03 am »

well shafri I am just finding it confusing because it glosses past details. What I expect in an electronics book is one that explains all the details i need to know to competently implement a circuit tecnique without going too far into the details that are more theoretical and not practical like I don't want to know why a fet works and it's internal workings just how to use it. I have a PDF of the art of electronics and it is very in depth, sometimes too in depth as you loose track of the main subject in reading the fine details but it does leave no stone unturned. The handbook really is no good to a novice as it lacks details infact far to many details are left to the fine print under the diagrams that are often wrong and it is poorly laid out. why put a diagram on the reverse page and then start a new subject on the current page ? put the flaming diagram right under the paragraph it is related to.

ElektroQuark · « **Reply #8 on:** July 31, 2010, 09:23:17 am »

Quote from: Simon on July 31, 2010, 06:55:20 am

Quote from: EdoNork on July 31, 2010, 06:18:46 am
You have an email.

Err no I don't, and I can't see anything in my spam box either, maybe you want to PM me

Sorry, shafri does.

Zero999 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 31, 2010, 09:26:02 am »

What sort of book are you after?

Is it just the basics you're interested in?

Forrest Mims Getting started in electronics is very good for beginners. It explains everything using drawings and is easy to understand for someone who's never done electronics before and doesn't have a mathematical background. On the downside: it contains a couple of minor errors and examples of bad practise, the circuits section isn't very well explained and it doesn't discuss inductance in anywhere near enough detail (there's a section on it but it doesn't mention that it's measured in Henrys) so you should read other books as well.

I wouldn't bother with the rest of the Forrest Mims series because there's a lot of repetition and insufficient explanation of circuits. I wish he would spend more time explaining, rather than repeating the same circuit over and over, for example instead of having a low frequency astable flashing an LED, followed by the same circuit operating at a higher frequency to make a speaker go beep, he should've drawn the circuit once, included an explanation of how it works and how to modify it to do different things.

Want one with lots of circuits with detailed explanations?

I would put The Art of Electronics in this category. It's a great book because it includes both the basics and more advanced electronics. Every circuit is well explained and there are sections on things which lots of people find difficult such as low power design and RF. It could do with an update with more on MCUs including AVRs and PICs which is apparently coming soon. I'm not going to go on too much because most people here have probably read it.

Do you want a mathematical book with circuit analysis, i.e. Laplace, Fourier, nodal analysis?

Try Intro to Electric Circuits Ray Powell, it's more physics based, to be honest I've only flicked through this one as it reminds me of some of the books we used at college which doesn't interest me much.

Simon · « **Reply #10 on:** July 31, 2010, 09:58:59 am »

I think "the art of electronics" is the sort I would want and I'll be buying a printed copy as soon as i can. I really miss the "electronics manual"s that we had at school in Italy and I'm astounded that nothing comparable exists in england/america, these were dictionary format books with thin pages as they were like 2K pages and had everything you could ever want to know, explain breifly and fully but without many examples. It was meant as a reference book more than a text book and I really treasured the one that I was allowed to have on a 1 year loan once i got to the last year (Because it was used in the final exam so top year students were allowed to have one for a year instead of 2 weeks). The lack of such a book in english technical culture really just goes to show how superficial and money orientated we are these days.

orbiter · « **Reply #11 on:** July 31, 2010, 10:07:08 am »

Good list there saturation, thanks. I've just ordered one of those books (All New Electronics Self-Teaching Guide) along with another one that's not listed there (how to test almost anything electronic.) I already have around ten .PDF books including 'The art of electronics', but it's nice to have a few 'real' books around when you need to refer to something quickly and you don't have a computer nearby.

EDIT: Good warning regarding 'practical electronics handbook' Simon, I'll put that in the list of books I wont be buying!

orb

Simon · « **Reply #12 on:** July 31, 2010, 10:12:42 am »

yes i like tio carry books around and read them

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #13 on:** July 31, 2010, 10:57:47 am »

Quote from: orbiter on July 31, 2010, 10:07:08 am

test almost anything electronic.) I already have around ten .PDF books including 'The art of electronics', but it's nice to have a few 'real' books around when you need to refer to something quickly and you don't have a computer nearby.

i used to print the PDF out in booklet format and stitch it later. put some fancy laminating + hardcover, if u want to. a real hardcopy for real engineering book in my place? you are dreaming! i have to order the AOE from India.

saturation · « **Reply #14 on:** July 31, 2010, 11:00:20 am »

Yes, understand, my reply was to provide a list of books addressing skills of hobbyists to engineers, that would improve on what you find lacking.

IMHO everything you learn in electronics must have a practical lean. Iif an equation is too abstract, or if it explains something well but that information still can't be used to repair, design, or build a circuit around the concept you are reading about, that book is not good for engineering, maybe for physics at most.

~~I know that book you mention, I saw it at a bookstore once, its not very practical in the sense I defined.~~

I have to correct myself, I was referring to the wrong Ian Sinclair book!

Quote from: Simon on July 30, 2010, 08:54:25 pm

thanks, my main point was to point out that this book is not a good option for beginers due to it's incompete and glossed over explanations. Just read that LDO regs dissipate less and are more efficient than normal regs.... eer yea but they forgot to mention the whole scenario, if your still dropping the same voltage it won't make any difference.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #15 on:** July 31, 2010, 11:04:48 am »

i just noticed... it survived though... up to the sixth edition

saturation · « **Reply #16 on:** July 31, 2010, 12:22:13 pm »

I remember now, I actually have a copy of this text. its very good, IMHO, but its not for explanations, its for reference to equations, component construction etc.,

I was thinking of another book, Electronics Made Simple by Ian Sinclair.

It was not geared to walk anyone through electronics but to refresh one's memory about a thing.

Alas, I think such texts are obsolete, except for some of those i linked such as Art of Electronics, Williams or Peace's books on analog design etc.,

Reference books are increasingly obsolete since you can get reference information on-the-fly via the Internet.

Quote from: shafri on July 31, 2010, 11:04:48 am

i just noticed... it survived though... up to the sixth edition

Quote from: saturation on July 31, 2010, 11:00:20 am

Yes, understand, my reply was to provide a list of books addressing skills of hobbyists to engineers, that would improve on what you find lacking.

IMHO everything you learn in electronics must have a practical lean. Iif an equation is too abstract, or if it explains something well but that information still can't be used to repair, design, or build a circuit around the concept you are reading about, that book is not good for engineering, maybe for physics at most.

~~I know that book you mention, I saw it at a bookstore once, its not very practical in the sense I defined.~~

I have to correct myself, I was referring to the wrong Ian Sinclair book!

Quote from: Simon on July 30, 2010, 08:54:25 pm
thanks, my main point was to point out that this book is not a good option for beginers due to it's incompete and glossed over explanations. Just read that LDO regs dissipate less and are more efficient than normal regs.... eer yea but they forgot to mention the whole scenario, if your still dropping the same voltage it won't make any difference.

orbiter · « **Reply #17 on:** July 31, 2010, 12:28:42 pm »

Quote

i used to print the PDF out in booklet format and stitch it later. put some fancy laminating + hardcover, if u want to. a real hardcopy for real engineering book in my place? you are dreaming! i have to order the AOE from India.

Yes I did consider that shafri, however the amount of ink & paper required would probably be pretty close to the cost of buying the book

orb

Simon · « **Reply #18 on:** July 31, 2010, 02:09:50 pm »

yes printing a book really is a pain, it is far easier to just buy it. I did print the handbook and now I'm sorry i did, I put 2 pages on each sheet but no doubt it was not cheap just the same.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #19 on:** July 31, 2010, 03:21:08 pm »

Quote from: orbiter on July 31, 2010, 12:28:42 pm

Yes I did consider that shafri, however the amount of ink & paper required would probably be pretty close to the cost of buying the book

are you using original ink? my printing only cost some dollars, if not cents. the drawbacks. less pretty, and water is its worst enemy. so everytime, i have to make sure it not get spilled.
I did consider buying online, but mostly the cost of shipping is alot more than the cost of the book

ps: its good to have the original.

orbiter · « **Reply #20 on:** July 31, 2010, 03:31:57 pm »

Quote

are you using original ink? my printing only cost some dollars, if not cents. the drawbacks. less pretty, and water is its worst enemy. so everytime, i have to make sure it not get spilled.

No my friend, I never use original ink (too expensive) I get mine from a place called inkredible in the UK. They're really cheap and the ink is good. I get 4x full sets for my Epson printer for £24 inc delivery

Quite often they have offers on too where the prices drop to £19.99 for the same 4x sets of cartridges. Even at those prices printing e'books would still be quite expensive though I believe.

Here's the link guys for Inkredible's website if anyones interested in cheap Epson, Canon and HP inks...

http://www.inkredible.co.uk/Default.aspx

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #21 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:14:16 pm »

Quote from: orbiter on July 31, 2010, 03:31:57 pm

No my friend, I never use original ink (too expensive) I get mine from a place called inkredible in the UK. They're really cheap and the ink is good. I get 4x full sets for my Epson printer for £24 inc delivery Quite often they have offers on too where the prices drop to £19.99 for the same 4x sets of cartridges. Even at those prices printing e'books would still be quite expensive though I believe.
Here's the link guys for Inkredible's website if anyones interested in cheap Epson, Canon and HP inks...
http://www.inkredible.co.uk/Default.aspx

i'm not sure if this one is acceptable to you or available for your printer (ciss system.. total 400ml = 100ml x 4)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CISS-Continuous-bulk-Ink-System-SX115-SX215-CIS-/170490906877?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_Printing_PrinterInkCatridges_JN&hash=item27b20cc8fd

i use something like that. even from the link you gave, the 3rd party is still much more expensive than my original Canon Cartridges here.
if you calculate, for your equivalent 13ml x 4 = £2.41

ahhh people can argue that it is not high quality and can damage a printer bla bla bla, but for me, buying a set of original cartridges is the same cost as buying a new printer+inks, can you believe that? even the 3rd party "cartridged" type is still cost alot more compared to the ciss system. and if it happen that i damage my printer's head when i used up all the ink in the ciss tanks, i already saved 5-7 times the cost of a printer (or set of cartridges), but so far, i just keep refilling and refilling that i dont know how many 100mls i've filled in and how many thousands of pages i've printed out.

FYI, i just finished printing the 568 pages "practical electronics handbook by Ian Sinclair and John Dunton" few minutes ago and i see my ink level in the tank have only moved down a few mm.
ps: but be warned, for a ciss successfull installation and operation needs experience and a bit of knowledge and googling, but if anybody interested but qurious, just ask me, every printer i own from the cheapest Canon line to my Epson R2400 Pigmented Ink are using CISS, except my newly bought Color Laser Samsung. just a matter of time when the original toners inside are used up.

Simon · « **Reply #22 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:15:12 pm »

sometimes i wonder at my wisdom in getting a Rocoh Gel printer hoping others would too so making the ink a bit cheaper. It is comparable to other make inks but at the moment they are all exspensive. Ink is the biggest rip off.

Simon · « **Reply #23 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:17:40 pm »

I used to have a similar system, highly recomended, but the printers these days conk out so quikly because they are programmed to that it makes the investment not worth while, I go left with half of my second batch of ink becuase the damn epson died on me, so I just bought the ricoh that is actually built for 100'000 prints

Quote from: shafri on July 31, 2010, 04:14:16 pm

Quote from: orbiter on July 31, 2010, 03:31:57 pm
No my friend, I never use original ink (too expensive) I get mine from a place called inkredible in the UK. They're really cheap and the ink is good. I get 4x full sets for my Epson printer for £24 inc delivery Quite often they have offers on too where the prices drop to £19.99 for the same 4x sets of cartridges. Even at those prices printing e'books would still be quite expensive though I believe.
Here's the link guys for Inkredible's website if anyones interested in cheap Epson, Canon and HP inks...
http://www.inkredible.co.uk/Default.aspx

i'm not sure if this one is acceptable to you or available for your printer (ciss system.. total 400ml = 100ml x 4)

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/CISS-Continuous-bulk-Ink-System-SX115-SX215-CIS-/170490906877?cmd=ViewItem&pt=UK_CamerasPhoto_Printing_PrinterInkCatridges_JN&hash=item27b20cc8fd

i use something like that. even from the link you gave, the 3rd party is still much more expensive than my original Canon Cartridges here.
if you calculate, for your equivalent 13ml x 4 = £2.41

ahhh people can argue that it is not high quality and can damage a printer bla bla bla, but for me, buying a set of original cartridges is the same cost as buying a new printer+inks, can you believe that? even the 3rd party "cartridged" type is still cost alot more compared to the ciss system. and if it happen that i damage my printer's head when i used up all the ink in the ciss tanks, i already saved 5-7 times the cost of a printer (or set of cartridges), but so far, i just keep refilling and refilling that i dont know how many 100mls i've filled in and how many thousands of pages i've printed out.

FYI, i just finished printing the 568 pages "practical electronics handbook by Ian Sinclair and John Dunton" few minutes ago and i see my ink level in the tank only moved few mm.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #24 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:34:24 pm »

Quote from: Simon on July 31, 2010, 04:17:40 pm

I used to have a similar system, highly recomended, but the printers these days conk out so quikly because they are programmed to that it makes the investment not worth while, I go left with half of my second batch of ink becuase the damn epson died on me, so I just bought the ricoh that is actually built for 100'000 prints

i both disagree and agree.
i disagree because, well at least for my case, the cheapest printer is built (physically) for longer time than it is designed for (my experience).
i agree because, yes it is "designed" just to print a few pages.

when the time is over (by design), my canon will throw "waste ink pad full" message and unable to print. everybody else around me will just buy a new one. but googling on how to reset will make the printer works indefinitely. my $40 canon MP160 has been working hard for these 3 years. but i purposedly choose (from experience) the separated head from body, head is the one that get damaged easily. the mp160, the head is built in the ink cartridges.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #25 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:45:16 pm »

tada! thanx to Simon and EdoNork. has'nt been cut to half, just out of printer.
If you like it, buy the Original. If not, scrap it!

some damaged nozzles there in red color cartridge if closely inspected. kinda get used to it already

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #26 on:** July 31, 2010, 04:58:22 pm »

@Simon: just between us... that 28MB thing, is quite an effort, i'm not sure if i can do the same to you, the net speed here is just "not up to the standard". Thanx alot !!!!

Simon · « **Reply #27 on:** July 31, 2010, 05:06:32 pm »

no worries mate, I'm surprised your yahoo mail box took it, as I have my own hosting this is a non issue for me so I forget easily.

Mechatrommer · « **Reply #28 on:** July 31, 2010, 05:10:31 pm »

Quote from: Simon on July 31, 2010, 05:06:32 pm

no worries mate, I'm surprised your yahoo mail box took it, as I have my own hosting this is a non issue for me so I forget easily.

yup luckily, maybe if sending from yahoo that is prohibited if larger than 10MB, i think if i'm not mistaken.
and yup! its confirmed. the softcopy = hardcopy, i just afraid if i got the different version.

MTron · « **Reply #29 on:** August 05, 2010, 05:06:47 pm »

dont suppose i could jump on this e-book too? Mind e-mailing it to me as well??? If you don't mind, my e-mail is in my profile, but make it @gmail.com not @msn.com

Matthew

orbiter · « **Reply #30 on:** August 05, 2010, 05:30:08 pm »

MTron you got PM

Sorry mate I sent the wrong one first

orb

Zero999 · « **Reply #31 on:** August 05, 2010, 06:02:57 pm »

Use a utility such as 7-zip to split the file up into many smaller files if it's too big to email.

Laser printers seem to offer the best value for money, especially if it's monochrome. I have an old Cannon LBP660 printer with a toner which lasted for over 10 years before I had to have it refilled and that was about four years ago.

I don't know about modern laser printers or colour though.

I recently saw a cheap inkjet printer in Lidl but the cartridges were a rip-off so there's no way I would've bought it.

Simon · « **Reply #32 on:** August 05, 2010, 10:20:07 pm »

The best compromise for colour/cost and top quality is a Ricoh Gel printer, a complete refill is like £120 but that IS for 1000 prints, some BW lasers are a rip off, our one at work is forever out of toner

EEVblog · « **Reply #33 on:** August 06, 2010, 03:06:03 am »

Quote from: Hero999 on August 05, 2010, 06:02:57 pm

Use a utility such as 7-zip to split the file up into many smaller files if it's too big to email.

If things are too big to email I use www.sendspace.com
Allows up to 300MB with only minor annoying ads at the receiver end.

Dave.

orbiter · « **Reply #34 on:** August 06, 2010, 10:15:12 am »

If your struggling swapping large files, perhaps try the likes of Mediafire. You just upload your chosen files and they it can be downloaded by somebody else, or made private via simple settings for your future use. It's free, and you get unlimited uploads, unlimited downloads, unlimited storage no speed limits and download resuming

http://www.mediafire.com/

Zero999 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 06, 2010, 11:14:41 am »

Quote from: Simon on August 05, 2010, 10:20:07 pm

The best compromise for colour/cost and top quality is a Ricoh Gel printer, a complete refill is like £120 but that IS for 1000 prints

12p for ink per page still sounds like a lot to me, bearing in mind I don't want colour.

Does it store well? I know that the print heads dry up on some inkjets if they're not used for awhile, is this still true? I've not owned an inkjet for over ten years.

Quote

, some BW lasers are a rip off, our one at work is forever out of toner

Maybe some of the more modern laser printers? My old Cannon LBP 660 costs just 2.4p per page and I get the toner refilled so it costs even less.

Fair enough, I wouldn't it to be that cheap from a colour printer and I know prices go up but I don't want a colour printer.
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/reviews/printers/3316/canon-lbp-660

The trouble with the old Cannon is that it's an old parallel printer with no drivers for any OS newer than Windows 2000, though it will work on XP with Windows 2000 drivers - something that Vistan or 7 won't allow nor will a 64-bit OS.

I'm not bothered about speed, colour or even quality (600dpi is fine for most text documents), just a low cost, reliable printer, which is economical to run.

alm · « **Reply #36 on:** August 06, 2010, 12:08:48 pm »

Work group class laser printers (eg. HP Laserjet 4xxx) are usually very economical. Toner for my printer is €90 from the manufacturer (you can probably get 'refilled' ones cheaper), and is specced for 10k pages. The current cartridge is the smaller capacity one, I think it's rated for 6k pages, and it's currently at 9% capacity with over 9k pages printed (about 2k 'other paper sizes', so these may have been envelopes). I think the lower capacity cartridge was something like €70, so that would be about €0.007 per page (10k pages until the cartridge is empty). It supports postscript, so no driver issues, and even supports Ethernet, so no issues with parallel ports either. It is huge and noisy, however.

The only issue is getting the printer, they are pretty expensive when bought new. Getting them used/surplus locally is the best way, since they are fairly fragile and heavy, so shipping is probably expensive. A long time ago, I bought a much older printer in the same class (Laserjet IID) for something like €100.

Zero999 · « **Reply #37 on:** August 06, 2010, 06:30:05 pm »

I found a good thread on this subject.
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=612353

Unfortunately it's out of date, some of the printers mentioned are no longer made, after Googling for the printers on the list, the best one which is still available and affordable, seems to be the Brother HL-5240, 2.1p/page (including paper at 1p/sheet) and can be bought for under £100.

http://www.google.co.uk/products/catalog?client=opera&rls=en&q=HL-5240&oe=utf-8&um=1&ie=UTF-8&cid=16951771083253417501&ei=6QNcTP-NBsuNjAeigtHwAw&sa=X&oi=product_catalog_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDYQ8wIwAg&os=reviews

From what I gather, it's not worth printing your own photos, it's cheaper to get them done professionally, although I can see the benefits convenience wise. I'm still considering a colour printer though but might get a separate one for the odd colour print.


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Author Topic: "practical electronics handbook" by Ian Sinclair and John Dunton - RIP OFF (Read 15697 times)

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