Author Topic: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills  (Read 8471 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-11-08/high-voltage-fuelling-increased-electricity-consumption/10460212  :-/O

"I was getting up once every three or four months to change light globes," he told 7.30. "And this is what led me to look at voltage.
"I'm being force-fed more electricity than I need," he said. After he realised the scale of the problem he started a company that specialises in filtering out extra voltage in homes and businesses.
7.30 visited his house in Melbourne on a day when the grid was delivering electricity at 254 volts — just above the allowable voltage limit.     "Based on the 254 volts I'm getting here, I'm roughly paying about $1,200 more for my electricity each year than I need to. "We have a major issue with regulating voltage across Australia. And it's getting worse."

Voltage is essentially electrical pressure.

It is the force that sends electrical current from power stations, through transmission lines, to your home or business. The nominal voltage for Australian households is 230 volts, but because voltage fluctuates all the time, electricity should be delivered within an allowable range of between 216 and 253 volts. For households in much of Australia, electricity is supplied with voltage towards the top end of that range and even just above the 253-volt limit. Depending on the appliances in your home, that can mean greater electricity consumption and bigger power bills. "Most customers just are not aware of it, so nothing happens about it," electrician Dean Spicer told 7.30.

"Once an appliance reaches saturation, that excess energy just burns off as heat, which is just money down the drain."

But high-quality comprehensive data on the voltages supplied to households is not easy to come by. Voltage to households running high. 7.30 asked two companies to take a snapshot of electricity meters across most of Australia. Their findings give an indication of the scale of the issue. The metering company Metropolis sampled 12,012 electricity meters four times a day from October 19 to 30, in all states and territories except the Northern Territory and Western Australia. The readings taken at 1:00pm, when rooftop solar panels are boosting network voltage, averaged 245.8 volts — within allowable limits, but well above the 230 nominal level. But even at night, when extra voltage from solar power is not a factor, the network voltage is still running high. The average minimum reading recorded by Metropolis was 241.6 volts.
 

Offline BradC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2129
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2018, 02:30:51 am »
I keep tabs on 2 of our 3 phases here (Perth) with a pair of APC UPS and a couple of modbus power meters. The UPS are about +/- 1.5V and the power meters are better than 1V accuracy (I check and calibrate them every 2 years).

4-5 years ago we were seeing peaks of up to 270V on a warm summers day. Halogens do *not* like that. The grid has got it under better control over the last couple of years, but we still see north of 250V regularly.
My current 24 hour power graph shows an average of 240-242V, a minimum of 234, a maximum of 249.4 and we're currently 240-243 on the two phases.

(edit after verifying specs) Of course in WA we are 240 +/-6V (now. When I were a lad it was a *real mans voltage* at 250V). I didn't realise the East coast is 230V -6/+10.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 02:43:06 am by BradC »
 

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2018, 02:47:43 am »
Mine seems to fluctuate between 235 and 247 on average according to my solar inverters power meter. We only have a single phase.
 

Offline BradC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2129
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2018, 02:50:27 am »
This is my current 24 hour and 7 day. It looks like the scale is somewhat expanded compared to yours.
 

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2018, 03:22:24 am »
My main query with this article is how much impact does the voltage actually have on the cost of the energy supplied? The article simplifies it too much IMO. Does this come down to one of those Power Factor discussions? My understanding was that even if the voltage increased, resistance on especially passive appliances remains constant, therefore current would drop.
 

Offline tombi

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 163
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2018, 03:35:04 am »
As a newb in this area - I don't get this.

Wouldn't anything with an SMPS use *less* current at higher voltages (by just varying the switching cycle) and so consume the same power? Ditto anything with a thermostat will just turn off sooner and consume the same energy. So unless he is running a lot of incandescent globes where does this $1200 figure come from?

My experience with this is  - (1) At a club I help in Sydney we had a lot of problems with the voltage creeping above 260V and causing our PV inverter from kicking out. (2) At my previous home in the hills district of Sydney the voltage would dip as low as 218 on a hot day when everybody is running their AC units and pool filters

Also I thought the grid was transitioning to 230 but some areas are still 240 but the article specifies 230.

Tom
 

Offline BradC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2129
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2018, 03:37:28 am »
My main query with this article is how much impact does the voltage actually have on the cost of the energy supplied? The article simplifies it too much IMO. Does this come down to one of those Power Factor discussions?

I think they are mainly referring to ohmic appliances (stove, oven, hot water heater, incadescent lamp, radiator... so on) whereby an increased potential directly results in an increased power use. I have difficulty reconciling the magnitude of the increase in billable power they are referring to however as most of those referenced devices have thermostats, so they'd just run at a lower duty cycle.

My understanding was that even if the voltage increased, resistance on especially passive appliances remains constant, therefore current would drop.
V=IR. or R = V/I. If R is constant and you increase V, I has to increase. P=VI, so if you increase V and I increases as a result then your power must increase and it's power you are billed for.
 

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2018, 03:41:28 am »
In fairness if a kettle starts using more power, its going to boil quicker, and therefore, be on for less time. could an 8% increase in voltage make that much difference though? If his power bill is ~$1000 as he says, then even if you assume 100% passive appliances, then his power bill should have been $926. Something doesn't add up in this story.
 
The following users thanked this post: HackedFridgeMagnet, TheNewLab

Offline flynwill

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 143
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2018, 04:52:48 am »
Indeed the only consumption I can think of where his complaint has some validity would be the incandescent lighting, where the net result is the lamps are burning brighter where brighter isn't needed, and are subjected to shorter lives as a result.  Generally the motors and all of the electronic loads will simply draw less current.

In most ways it's better than the opposite problem my neighborhood suffers from in in the summer months when all of the AC units kick in at the same time.

Attached graph is from my solar power system for a couple of days last summer, green trace is the power output, red trace is the voltage, you can see where the inverter drops offline due the voltage being too low (further aggravating the problem).
 

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2018, 04:56:22 am »
Do people still use incandescent bulbs these days?
 

Offline BradC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2129
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2018, 05:10:43 am »
Do people still use incandescent bulbs these days?

Yep. Every lamp we have that is on a dimmer is incandescent. I also use halogens for work-lights, reading lights and floods.
We do have a lot of LEDs, but there are still plenty of applications where I prefer the halogen for colour rendition, spread and/or penetration and the fact they actually generate heat.

Oddly enough, when our power spikes super high we tend to lose more electronically ballasted lamps than incandescents. I've actually had 2 GU10 LED lamps spew flames. Thankfully I was actually in the room at the time and could deal with it before it got out of hand. They weren't E-bay cheapies either at $30/ea from a local electronics shop.

So yeah, I have a lot of incandescent.
 

Offline sibeen

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 271
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2018, 05:20:39 am »
Yeah, $1,200 more because the voltage is a tad high – ROFL, and I bet he’s got something to sell. It's a bullshit article

A lot of this comes back to Australia deciding to play nice with others and standardise on the IEC voltage of 230/400 volts. Generally states in Australia produced voltage at 240/415 volts, the UK, NZ and others are in the same boat, there were countries in the IEC world who produced voltage at 230/400 and others who produced at 220/380 volts. They all got together and decided to ‘normalise’ the standard voltage to 230/400.

So our standards in Oz changed. The voltage didn’t, it has stayed a nice healthy 240 volts or thereabouts :) From memory the old standard was something like 240V plus/minus 10%. So the range was 216 to 264. With the new standard they tightened it up to 230 + 10% – 6%, so the range is now 216 at the low end to 253 at the high. The one thing the article does have correct is what a pain in the arse solar production is for the energy providers. The network really wasn’t designed for it and the solar causes voltage rises onto the grid.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 05:23:59 am by sibeen »
 

Offline james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 21611
  • Country: us
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2018, 06:11:31 am »
I have to wonder how much electricity costs and how much he's using in order to get an extra $1200 a year. $1200 is significantly more than I spend on electricity a year in total!

That wide variation is a bit surprising though, I've monitored one side of my panel from time to time and I don't think I've ever seen it lower than 118V or higher than 122V and usually it's pretty much bang on within 0.5V of 120V so ~236-244V across the whole service. 
 
The following users thanked this post: tooki

Offline Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5050
  • Country: si
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2018, 06:41:04 am »
Dang, how much is his power bill then? If we assume the 10% higher voltage makes him assume 10% higher cost then he must be spending $12 000 per year on power. What the heck is he running? A bitcoin mining farm? :o

At least he is getting proper voltage. Due to living in a more rural area the grid here is pretty old here and yet power consumption started going up rapidly. A lot of it is due to heatpumps becoming popular. Because of the unstable power i set up a multimeter to monitor one of the phases and log it. What i found was that at times the voltage dipped as low as 180V or being as high as 240V at times. Sending the graphs to the electrical company we finally managed to get them to run a new low voltage cable for this part of the village. Now the voltage tends to be on the high side at 240V but we are the one of the first houses on that new line, but its stable there with no significant dips.

The reason we pressured them into it is that dad put up a 10kW solar installation on the house and the inverter was really not happy with the voltage dipping to 180V and locking itself into a safe mode.
 

Offline vk6zgo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7855
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2018, 06:51:50 am »
My main query with this article is how much impact does the voltage actually have on the cost of the energy supplied? The article simplifies it too much IMO. Does this come down to one of those Power Factor discussions?

I think they are mainly referring to ohmic appliances (stove, oven, hot water heater, incadescent lamp, radiator... so on) whereby an increased potential directly results in an increased power use. I have difficulty reconciling the magnitude of the increase in billable power they are referring to however as most of those referenced devices have thermostats, so they'd just run at a lower duty cycle.

My understanding was that even if the voltage increased, resistance on especially passive appliances remains constant, therefore current would drop.
V=IR. or R = V/I. If R is constant and you increase V, I has to increase. P=VI, so if you increase V and I increases as a result then your power must increase and it's power you are billed for.

No it's power over time (kW/h), so if the duty cycle is reduced, less power is used in that time period.
 
The following users thanked this post: optoisolated

Offline vk6zgo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7855
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #15 on: November 08, 2018, 07:42:11 am »
I keep tabs on 2 of our 3 phases here (Perth) with a pair of APC UPS and a couple of modbus power meters. The UPS are about +/- 1.5V and the power meters are better than 1V accuracy (I check and calibrate them every 2 years).

4-5 years ago we were seeing peaks of up to 270V on a warm summers day. Halogens do *not* like that. The grid has got it under better control over the last couple of years, but we still see north of 250V regularly.
My current 24 hour power graph shows an average of 240-242V, a minimum of 234, a maximum of 249.4 and we're currently 240-243 on the two phases.

(edit after verifying specs) Of course in WA we are 240 +/-6V (now. When I were a lad it was a *real mans voltage* at 250V). I didn't realise the East coast is 230V -6/+10.

Yes, it was 250v.
Everything worked OK, until the light globe manufacturers decided that making globes in Australia was a "mugs game".
Unlike the 240v Oz made ones, the imported ones often lasted less than a year, so "260v" ones were imported & sold at a considerable markup.
They weren't measurably better, so much whinging ensued, until the then, SECWA, at great expense, changed the supply voltage to 240v

The light globes didn't last much longer, but by now, compact fluorescent globes were being pushed hard, as having longer life, as well as being more efficient.

The younger people had never seen the old type incandescents with a decent length of life, so fell for the pitch.
Compact fluoros were pretty dire, as were the first generation LED globe replacements, but finally, LEDs are now quite good.------if you don't mind the RF interference they generate! ;D
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 07:44:00 am by vk6zgo »
 

Offline Brumby

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12413
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #16 on: November 08, 2018, 07:44:27 am »
So our standards in Oz changed. The voltage didn’t, it has stayed a nice healthy 240 volts or thereabouts :) From memory the old standard was something like 240V plus/minus 10%.

Yes- the Australian standard changed in 2000.  Before the change it was 240V +6% -10%.  To become more in line with Europe, it changed to 230V +10% -6%.

Do the math ... have a laugh.  I smiled when I did.......

A bureaucratic master stroke.
 

Offline BradC

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2129
  • Country: au
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2018, 08:28:53 am »
No it's power over time (kW/h), so if the duty cycle is reduced, less power is used in that time period.

I think you missed the bit where the voltage went up, therefore the current went up, therefore the power went up. I'm pretty naff at communicating, so I probably was unclear.

We are talking about an appliance with a thermostat. It wants a kilowatt hour whether it gets it in 30 minutes or 40 minutes. More power from the resistive element means you need it on for less time to get the same energy output, so the duty cycle decreases but the billed power remains the same. My argument is an increased voltage results in more power output from the device. You are billed on power. On a device with a thermostat it's a moot point, but on something like an incandescent lamp then you are being billed for more.

Now, do I think his figures are hysterically inflated? Sure.

Our summer power bill is about $1200 for the 60 day period. Even if every device in my house was resistive and uncontrolled there is no way know to man I could account for even $100 extra for that period. So yeah he's talking out of his arse, or the ABC reporter has got it wrong (wouldn't be the first time).

The younger people had never seen the old type incandescents with a decent length of life, so fell for the pitch.

I used to buy a couple of boxes of them every time I stopped over in Qatar or Dubai. Proper long life incandescents. I've not been there in a few years now and I used the last lamp a couple of months ago. I'm now onto the "halogen" equivalents which last 1/4 of the time (and even less if they are dimmed unlike real incandescents which last *longer* when under-driven).

 

Offline JackJones

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 229
  • Country: fi
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2018, 09:32:23 am »
"After he realised the scale of the problem he started a company that specialises in filtering out extra voltage in homes and businesses."

I wonder how they do it? Big Clive released an interesting video recently, if you connect the secondary of a transformer in series with the primary, depending on which way it's connected you either add or subtract the secondary voltage to the mains:


You could do it like this locally without having to tinker with any utility transformers or anything dicky like that. I wonder if you could adjust the secondary somehow based on the mains, that way it would regulate the voltage to the desired value.
 

Offline mzzj

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1298
  • Country: fi
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2018, 09:39:50 am »
In fairness if a kettle starts using more power, its going to boil quicker, and therefore, be on for less time. could an 8% increase in voltage make that much difference though? If his power bill is ~$1000 as he says, then even if you assume 100% passive appliances, then his power bill should have been $926. Something doesn't add up in this story.

Goddammit, where is the Ohm's law when needed?

8% increase in voltage causes 16,6% increase in power and that's what you pay for in the imaginary case of passive,  constant-on resistive load. 
(Of course that case is 400% unrealistic but anyways)
 

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2018, 12:11:13 pm »
So... wont make any tangible difference for anything digital, motors, or resistive (heating) loads with thermostats... So, basically everything? Nice job, ABC.  :-DD  :popcorn:  :bullshit:
 

Offline Berni

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5050
  • Country: si
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2018, 12:42:52 pm »
Well it does make a difference with brushed motors as they will run a bit faster but im pretty sure your blender or angle grinder don't make up that much of the total power usage in a home.

Besides they have more oomph when overvolted so that's only a good thing.
 

Offline jmelson

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2851
  • Country: us
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2018, 08:02:39 pm »
My main query with this article is how much impact does the voltage actually have on the cost of the energy supplied? The article simplifies it too much IMO. Does this come down to one of those Power Factor discussions? My understanding was that even if the voltage increased, resistance on especially passive appliances remains constant, therefore current would drop.
The meters multiply instantaneous voltage times instantaneous current to give instantaneous power.
Some devices (computers, induction motors) draw roughly constant power, so raising voltage reduces current.
Heating devices and old incandescent light bulbs draw more current as voltage rises, so they draw more current.
If you increase voltage 10% above nominal, power draw increases by 21%, and the meter will accurately record that.

This guy's electric bill must be QUITE impressive for the increase to be $1200.

Jon
 

Offline nali

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 732
  • Country: gb
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2018, 08:57:25 pm »
Goddammit, where is the Ohm's law when needed?

8% increase in voltage causes 16,6% increase in power and that's what you pay for in the imaginary case of passive,  constant-on resistive load. 
(Of course that case is 400% unrealistic but anyways)

Don't forget that resistance will also increase due to higher temperature. Out of curiosity I measured it on an old car headlamp bulb I have lying around, for an 8% increase (12.00 > 12.96V) gave a power increase of 13.45%

 

Offline optoisolatedTopic starter

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 71
  • Country: au
  • If in doubt, it's probably user error.
    • OpsBros
Re: ABC News posted a story re: Jacked Mains Voltage is increasing power bills
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2018, 11:42:36 pm »
Guy has a lot of kettles.  :-DD Or a lot of sunlamps ;)  :popcorn: 8)
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf