Author Topic: Poles and Zeros  (Read 15621 times)

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Offline max.wwwang

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2026, 09:26:52 pm »
Here are a couple plots that show a graphical view of what the poles and zeros look like in 2d and 3d drawings.
This isn't as much mathematical as it is graphical so you can get an idea what the response looks like.

Note the tops of these had to be cut off because they go all the way to infinity.
The 'surface' is the entire surface not the top circular part.
The arrow drawn to the top in Plot-2 points to the top of that mountain, but it should really point to infinity.
Thanks. Are you able to tell where these figures are from? So if interested someone may be able to find a fuller exposition of this subject there.
Yes, they come from the book: Engineering Circuit Analysis by William H. Hayt Jr. and Jack E. Kemmerly, Second Edition.
The book edition is from quite a long time ago and the newer editions are rather expensive, so you might find an earlier edition like that for cheap.
This is a calculus/differential equations based book so you would have to be at least a little familiar with that kind of math to get a lot of these concepts from the book.  It does however take you from the basics to the more advanced topics.  For example, the first chapter is about resistor circuits (algebra) and the last chapter, chapter 19, is about Laplace Transform techniques (calculus and differential equations).  Chapter 13 talks about complex frequency and poles and zeros (algebra and complex numbers).
Thank you! I managed to locate a pdf of its 8th edition online. I will remember to check out its Ch.14 Complex Frequency and Laplace Transform, as I'm now trying hard to grasp these subjects. Maths is a bit hard but I till try to handle (which in the end, is extremely rewarding).
« Last Edit: April 29, 2026, 09:30:55 pm by max.wwwang »
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Offline max.wwwang

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2026, 11:31:29 pm »
The derivation of Bode plot construction is straightforward once the transfer function has been factorized into a product of zero terms \$(s-s_{0i})\$ divided by a product of pole terms \$(s-s_{pj})\$.

$$H(s)=K{(s-s_{00})(s-s_{01})\ldots(s-s_{0n-1})\over (s-s_{p0})(s-s_{p1})\ldots(s-s_{pm-1})}$$

with a little manipulation:

$$H(s)=G{(s/s_{00}-1)(s/s_{01}-1)\ldots(s/s_{0n-1}-1)\over (s/s_{p0}-1)(s/s_{p1}-1)\ldots(s/s_{pm-1}-1)}$$

Being interested in the magnitude of \$H(s)\$, measured in dB, as modulo is distributive over multiplication, and logarithm converts multiplications into sums, the magnitude (in dB) of \$H(s)\$ is the sum of the individual magnitudes of zeroes (in dB) minus the individual magnitudes of poles (also in dB).

Now, as each term has the form \$(s/s_j-1)\$, we distinguish two asymptotic behaviors:
  • with frequency towards 0, as \$s\to 0\$, the term goes to \$|-1|\$, which is a constant gain of 0 dB
  • with frequency towards ∞, as \$s\to \infty\$, the term goes to \$s/s_j\$, so zeroes give a magnitude proportional to f, and poles inversely proportional (these are the ±20 dB/dec slopes). These slopes intersect the previous 0 dB line when \$|s/s_j|=1\$ (0 dB) ⇒ at a frequency \$f_j = |s_j|/2\pi\$.

Zeroes and poles at 0 give an overall slope of ±20 dB/dec over whole the frequency range.

The Bode plot for phase follows a similar approach, taking into account that the phase operator, when applied to a product, equals the sum of individual phases.

And that's all.
I feel that this is probably the most elegant way of explaining the Bode plot and the magic numbers (e.g. 20 dB/dec) and magic manipulations of the poles and zeros. But I need more time to fill in the skipped steps that are obvious to you.

For example, I got the mathematical link from the book Advanced EE (mentioned above) regarding the typical slope of +/-20 dB/dec (or 6 dB/oct) for a pole or zero, and can sense it in your explanation. But I'm still unable to make it plain (as plain as I would like). For example, starting from$$|H(s)| = G \frac{\left| \frac{s}{s_{00}} - 1 \right| \left| \frac{s}{s_{01}} - 1 \right| \ldots \left| \frac{s}{s_{0n-1}} - 1 \right|}{\left| \frac{s}{s_{p0}} - 1 \right| \left| \frac{s}{s_{p1}} - 1 \right| \ldots \left| \frac{s}{s_{pn-1}} - 1 \right|}$$
I get it expressed in dB/20 as $$\log|H(s)| = \log G + \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{00}} - 1 \right| + \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{01}} - 1 \right| + \cdots + \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{0n-1}} - 1 \right|$$
$$- \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{p0}} - 1 \right| - \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{p1}} - 1 \right| - \cdots - \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{pn-1}} - 1 \right|$$
but now I'm unable to go further because the division of two complex numbers, then followed by "\$-1\$", makes it overly complicated...

Another question, in your manipulation from the formular with coefficient \$K\$ to another with \$G\$, I think \$G\$ will now be a complex number (so perhaps \$G\$ above should be \$|G|\$), as opposed to \$K\$ being a real one. What are the implications of this, mathematically and intuitively?

Edit: Reading on this paper Understanding Poles and Zeros, it is doing exactly what I wanted, in formulas (21)–(26). I will keep reading, and may update this one. But feel free to respond any time ...
« Last Edit: April 30, 2026, 02:43:55 am by max.wwwang »
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Offline max.wwwang

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #77 on: April 30, 2026, 01:23:23 am »
Keep reading this paper Understanding Poles and Zeros, and keep questions going.

Questions 1 and 2 are related to the example on page 5.

1. Why the magic number "4" or "four" in all of the three "observations"? Is it related to another magic number "3 dB" (the approximation of \$10 log2\$) in some way?
2. Why "exhibits some overshoot" in observation 2?

3. Why in formula (19), function \$tan^{-1}\$ is used, not atan2()?
4. The ghost of "substituting \$j\omega\$ for \$s\$" is till haunting – the first para under the heading of Section 3 on page 9 has "The frequency response may be written in terms of the system poles and zeros by substituting \$j\omega\$ for \$s\$ directly ...". Why can this be done? Or since we are dealing with a real frequency \$\omega\$, why can we not just use \$\omega\$, not \$j\omega\$, since \$\omega\$ is also a member of \$\mathbb{C}\$?
5. On page 9 [Edit: sorry it's p 11], how to understand "a pure integration term" (in item 4) and "a pure differentiation" (in item 5)?
6. On page 12, in the 2nd para under the heading 3.1, what does it mean by "the four first and second-order blocks"? [Edit: Does "block" mean a section, or range, of the frequency axis divided by the break points? Then what is "first" or "second" order?]
7. On the same page in the next para, why "all low frequency asymptotes are horizontal lines with a gain of 0dB"? And why "Because all low frequency asymptotes are horizontal lines with a gain of 0dB, a pole or zero does not contribute to the magnitude Bode plot below its break frequency"?

Thanks.

« Last Edit: May 01, 2026, 04:05:29 am by max.wwwang »
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Offline Tation

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2026, 08:54:56 am »
I feel that this is probably the most elegant way of explaining the Bode plot and the magic numbers (e.g. 20 dB/dec) and magic manipulations of the poles and zeros. But I need more time to fill in the skipped steps that are obvious to you.

For example, I got the mathematical link from the book Advanced EE (mentioned above) regarding the typical slope of +/-20 dB/dec (or 6 dB/oct) for a pole or zero, and can sense it in your explanation. But I'm still unable to make it plain (as plain as I would like). For example, starting from$$|H(s)| = G \frac{\left| \frac{s}{s_{00}} - 1 \right| \left| \frac{s}{s_{01}} - 1 \right| \ldots \left| \frac{s}{s_{0n-1}} - 1 \right|}{\left| \frac{s}{s_{p0}} - 1 \right| \left| \frac{s}{s_{p1}} - 1 \right| \ldots \left| \frac{s}{s_{pn-1}} - 1 \right|}$$
I get it expressed in dB/20 as $$\log|H(s)| = \log G + \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{00}} - 1 \right| + \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{01}} - 1 \right| + \cdots + \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{0n-1}} - 1 \right|$$
$$- \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{p0}} - 1 \right| - \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{p1}} - 1 \right| - \cdots - \log\left| \frac{s}{s_{pn-1}} - 1 \right|$$
but now I'm unable to go further because the division of two complex numbers, then followed by "\$-1\$", makes it overly complicated...

Another question, in your manipulation from the formular with coefficient \$K\$ to another with \$G\$, I think \$G\$ will now be a complex number (so perhaps \$G\$ above should be \$|G|\$), as opposed to \$K\$ being a real one. What are the implications of this, mathematically and intuitively?

Edit: Reading on this paper Understanding Poles and Zeros, it is doing exactly what I wanted, in formulas (21)–(26). I will keep reading, and may update this one. But feel free to respond any time ...

\$K\$ is a real number, then
$$G=K{s_{00}s_{01}\ldots s_{0n-1}\over s_{p0}s_{p1}\ldots s_{pm-1}}$$
and, being poles and zeroes real numbers, or coming in complex conjugate pairs, \$G\$ is also real. Note that in your formula for \$\log H(s)\$, it must be \$|G|\$, not plain G (it is real, but can be positive or negative).

Note also than the numerator and denominator can have different number of terms. More zero terms means that there are poles at ∞ (e.g.: \$H(s)=s+1\$, has a zero at -1 and a pole at ∞); more pole terms means that there are zeroes at ∞ (e.g.: \$H(s)={1\over s+1}\$, has a pole at -1 and a zero at ∞). Taking into account these singularities at 0 and ∞, transfer functions always have the same number of zeroes and poles.

Now for \$|s/s_{\lambda k} -1|\$:
  • When \$s\to0\$ ⇒ \$|s/s_{\lambda k}|=|s|/|s_{\lambda k}|\to0\$, so only the -1 remains
  • When \$s\to\infty\$ ⇒ \$|s/s_{\lambda k}|=|s|/|s_{\lambda k}|\to\infty\$, so the -1 is negligible
« Last Edit: April 30, 2026, 09:10:34 am by Tation »
 
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Offline Tation

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2026, 03:47:40 pm »
Keep reading this paper Understanding Poles and Zeros, and keep questions going.

Questions 1 and 2 are related to the example on page 5.

1. Why the magic number "4" or "four" in all of the three "observations"? Is it related to another magic number "3 dB" (the approximation of \$10 log2\$) in some way?
2. Why "exhibits some overshoot" in observation 2?

3. Why in formula (19), function \$tan^{-1}\$ is used, not atan2()?
4. The ghost of "substituting \$j\omega\$ for \$s\$" is till haunting – the first para under the heading of Section 3 on page 9 has "The frequency response may be written in terms of the system poles and zeros by substituting \$j\omega\$ for \$s\$ directly ...". Why can this be done? Or since we are dealing with a real frequency \$\omega\$, why can we not just use \$\omega\$, not \$j\omega\$, since \$\omega\$ is also a member of \$\mathbb{C}\$?
5. On page 9, how to understand "a pure integration term" (in item 4) and "a pure differentiation" (in item 5)?
6. On page 12, in the 2nd para under the heading 3.1, what does it mean by "the four first and second-order blocks"?
7. On the same page in the next para, why "all low frequency asymptotes are horizontal lines with a gain of 0dB"? And why "Because all low frequency asymptotes are horizontal lines with a gain of 0dB, a pole or zero does not contribute to the magnitude Bode plot below its break frequency"?

Thanks.

Except for point 4, I think that you will discover them soon (sorry, I feel lazy today to write answers to all items, as my answer to point 4 will be long). For the 4 point, well, I do not have a crystal clear explanation. But, many years ago, when studying this, I developed for myself a kind of explanation that was useful to me. please, note that the mathematical rigour of this explanation goes towards 0 as we progress along it. As I said, it was useful to me, but it is not formal, only a way to guide intuition. Unfortunately, if your exposition to linear algebra is nil, all this will be of not much help, if any.

All the theory of Linear Time Invariant systems, both continuous and sampled, relies on the idea of representing signals as a weighted sum of other elementary signals. Once an input signal has been decomposed into such sum, if the response of the system to each of such elementary signals is known, being the system linear, then the output can be computed as the weighted sum (with same weights as the initial sum) of the elementary responses.

Some examples. 1) The input signal is a periodic signal with period T and frequency f=1/T. The input signal can be decomposed into a Fourier series (a sum of sines and cosines with frequencies 0, f, 2f, 3f,… and with weights \$a_0\$, \$a_i\$ and \$b_i\$). Each sine/cosine is "processed" by the system, that modifies the amplitude and phase of each one, and the output is the sum of such processed sines/cosines. The output to any other periodic signal with same period is computed in the same way, only the coefficients \$a_0\$, \$a_i\$ and \$b_i\$ vary. Note that the coefficients are a countable infinite set.

2) the input signal is not periodic. It can be decomposed as a "continuous" sum (an integral) of Dirac's delta impulses. There is an uncountable infinite set of impulses, each located at each value of time with a weight equal to the value of the input signal at each instant (so the weighting "coefficients" is the input signal itself). Known the response of the LTI system to a single pulse (which is called the impulse response), the output of the system can be computed as a weighted (by the input signal) uncountable infinite sum (integral) of all such impulses, this is the convolution integral. There's now another thread about it.

But all of this resemble to something that is studied in linear algebra: vector spaces. Do you see a parallelism between: decomposing a signal into a set of elementary signals, each weighted by a coefficient; and decomposing a vector into a sum of basis vectors each weighted by a coefficient (the coordinates of the vector in such basis)? Well, here the "dimension" is infinite —in 1) countable, in 2) uncountable—, whereas in vector spaces the dimension is finite, but the idea is quite similar.

Evenmore, in linear algebra, a linear operator "processes" vectors. Given an input vector generates an output one. But, if the output of such linear operator to all basis vectors is known, then it is easy to compute the output of the linear system to any input vector: decompose the input vector into a weighted sum of basis vectors (i.e.: get the input vector coordinates in such basis) and add the outputs of the linear operator to each basis vector, weighting each one by each coordinate. This is what does multiplying a matrix (that contains the individual responses of the linear operator to each basis vector) by a column vector (that contains the coordinates of the input vector in such basis) producing another vector that contains the coordinates of the output vector in the same basis. In the previous examples there's no equivalent to this matrix but, do you see the parallelism between how we compute the output of a linear operator and the way we compute the output of an LTI system? The idea, is, again, the same: decompose input into elementary objects getting a set of weights, add the individual system responses to each elementary object, weighted by the weights.

Even evenmore. From linear algebra we know that some basis are more interesting than others. An eigenvector of a linear operator is a vector that, when processed by the operator, results in itself multiplied by a scalar (its eigenvalue). In some way these eigenvectors are the "natural" vectors for the operator. If we decompose the input vector into a weighted sum of eigenvectors, the output vector is calculated by simply multiplying each input coordinate by the corresponding eigenvalue. This departs from previous 2 examples, as neither sines/cosines nor Dirac's delta are "eigensignals" of LTI systems. Applying a sine/cosine to a LTI does not, in general, generate the same sine/cosine multiplied by a scalar (because there is also a phase change), also, an impulse applied to a LTI does not generate, in general, another delta, but the impulse response.

But, can we locate "eigensignals" for LTI systems? Those would be signals than, when applied to a LTI system, produce at its output the same signal multiplied by a scalar. We restrict now to RLC+gain LTI systems. In such circuits: with Kirchhoff's we add/subtract voltages/currents to get other voltages/currents (this is linear); use R+gains to perform the same tasks; and use LC to differentiate a current to get a voltage (L) or a voltage to get a current (C). The tricky part is the differentiation, but, what function, when differentiated, turns into itself multiplied by a escalar? The exponential: \${d\over dt}e^{st}=se^{st}\$. Thus, it seems that functions \$e^{st}\$, when applied to RLC+gain circuits, must produce the same function multiplied by a scalar (which should be a function of s, component values and topology of the circuit), thus becoming eigensignals of RLC+gain circuits.

So exponentials can be eigensignals of RLC+gain circuits? But, apparently, we cannot decompose many signals as a sum of exponentials. For example, a sine is not a sum of exponentials… err, well, it is: \$\sin ωt = {e^{jωt}-e^{-jωt}\over2j}\$, and \$\cos ωt = {e^{jωt}+e^{jωt}\over2}\$. Can we restrict ourselves to eigensignals of the type \$e^{jωt}\$? Well, not, for example \$e^t\$ (ever increasing) can be expressed neither as a sum/integral of functions \$e^{jωt}\$ nor as a sum/integral of sines/cosines. Thus, we need to admit that, maybe, functions \$e^{st}\$, with s complex (not only real, not only imaginary, but complex), can be a set of eigensignals for LTI systems.

Does exist a means to compute the coefficients (coordinates) of an input signal x(t) in the \$e^{st}\$ basis? Yes, it is called the Laplace transform of x(t), X(s), that, for each s, gives the "coordinate" of x(t) in the "direction" of \$e^{st}\$. If the input signal we need to decompose is real, then its decomposition into a sum (in fact, integral) of functions \$e^{st}\$ must show some constraints to ensure that the resulting signal is real —such constraint is that \$X(s^*)=X^*(s)\$—.

Now that we have decomposed x(t) into its X(s) coordinates in the (uncountable infinite) basis \$e^{st}\$, how do we compute the output signal of the circuit? As how we did with vector spaces: multiplying each coordinate by the scalar each \$e^{st}\$ is multiplied by the circuit (the eigenvalues). There's an eigenvalue for each s, so the eigenvalues are a function of s, such function is the transfer function of the system H(s). This way we get the coordinates of the output signal Y(s) in the basis \$e^{st}\$. To get y(t) from its coordinates, we proceed as with vectors, multiply each coordinate s by its corresponding basis vector \$e^{st}\$ and adding them all (as there's an uncountable number of coordinates, this is an integral). This is the inverse Laplace transform.

Thus the Laplace transform and s are the "right" tools to manage LTI systems, not just jω.

As I said before, all this has rigour → 0. But it helped me. The major offenders here may be that, in fact, \$e^{st}\$ is not a basis, but an infinite set of basis, each basis being all \$e^{st}\$ with s in a vertical line from s=ρ-j∞ to s=σ+j∞, with \$\sigma>\sigma_0\$, where \$\sigma_0\$ indicates the area where the integral of the Laplace transform converges (the region of convergence). Also, vector spaces do not have infinite dimension, so the space of functions/signals with Laplace transform is not a space vector, but a different kind of mathematical structure that I do not know how it is named (Hardy space? Locally convex space? Banach/Hilbert space?). Well, I'm an engineer, you know, such kind of people happily working with spherical cows.

Also, restricting to RLC+gain circuits for \$e^{st}\$ being eigensignals is not necessary. It was a tool useful (to me) to discover what kind of functions can be a basis. But, from the convolution integral, it can be followed that \$e^{st}\$ are eigensignals for all LTI systems, not only RLC+gain circuits.

Now, if the LTI system must produce a real output signal for any real input signal, then it must be that \$H(s^*)=H^*(s)\$.

If the LTI system is an RLC+gain circuit, then H(s) is a polinomial in s with real coefficients, divided by another polynomial of the same kind. (as a note, I see this intuitively, maybe because the theory of the z transform for sampled systems, that uses equations in differences instead of differential equations, has shaped my mind in this way, your mileage may vary). Introducing delay/memory in the circuit (say, transmission lines) gives H(s) that is no longer a ratio of polynomials.

Now, if the LTI system is causal, then all its poles must have real part < 0.

Some online references about eigensignals of LTI systems:

Hope this helps. Regards.

« Last Edit: April 30, 2026, 08:50:37 pm by Tation »
 
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Offline max.wwwang

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #80 on: April 30, 2026, 10:06:32 pm »
@Tation Thank you so much for your comprehensive explanation for my 4th question!

I held a long breath before reaching the line 'Thus the Laplace transform and \$s\$ are the "right" tools to manage LTI systems, not just \$j\omega\$', when I was left barely alive. :palm:

Super interesting, and I like the linkage to LTI system (which is also new to me), ... and causal LTI system – the word "causal" is particularly intriguing and has lately been hanging on my mind (albeit completely independent of LTI).
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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #81 on: May 01, 2026, 01:38:07 am »
1. The author arbitrarily decided that the signal stops being significant when the amplitude decays to 𝑒⁻⁴ or 1/50.

2. The expression contains sin.  It wiggles before settling.

3. atan2 or arg is more correct.  However if a minimum phase transfer function on the 𝑗𝜔 axis is studied then all the zeros and poles will be to the left.

4. We are interested in what happens when a sine wave is fed.  A sine wave contains exp(𝑗𝜔) and exp(-𝑗𝜔).  The function of exp(-𝑗𝜔) is the conjugate of it of exp(𝑗𝜔).  So it is unnecessary to look at it separately.

5. I don't see items 4 and 5 on page 9.

6. A first-order block takes care of 1 pole on the real 𝑠 axis.  A second-order block takes cares of 2 poles.  Usually that means 2 conjugate poles as is the case here.

7. When one is only interested in how the function changes with frequency, and the function has no zeros or poles at DC, it can be normalized to 0 dB at DC by multiplying by a real constant.  The amplitude is smooth and symmetrical on the 𝑗𝜔 axis, so it is flat near the center.  The part "does not contribute to" means does not significantly contribute to.  It is the same as saying that the amplitude is mostly flat at a low frequency.
 
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Offline max.wwwang

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #82 on: May 01, 2026, 01:49:57 am »
\$K\$ is a real number, then
$$G=K{s_{00}s_{01}\ldots s_{0n-1}\over s_{p0}s_{p1}\ldots s_{pm-1}}$$
and, being poles and zeroes real numbers, or coming in complex conjugate pairs, \$G\$ is also real. Note that in your formula for \$\log H(s)\$, it must be \$|G|\$, not plain G (it is real, but can be positive or negative).
Both points (\$G\$ being real, and \$|G|\$ rather than \$G\$ due to the possibility of being negative) are understood and agreed. Thank you!

Quote
Note also than the numerator and denominator can have different number of terms. More zero terms means that there are poles at ∞ (e.g.: \$H(s)=s+1\$, has a zero at -1 and a pole at ∞); more pole terms means that there are zeroes at ∞ (e.g.: \$H(s)={1\over s+1}\$, has a pole at -1 and a zero at ∞). Taking into account these singularities at 0 and ∞, transfer functions always have the same number of zeroes and poles.
I still don't quite get this. I get it that in the case of \$H(s)=s+1\$, there is a zero at -1 and a pole at ∞, and in the case of \$H(s)={1\over s+1}\$, there is a pole at -1 and a zero at ∞. But I don't get the more general form that more zero terms means that there are poles at ∞, and more pole terms means that there are zeroes at ∞ (it's so only if any pair of pole/zero items in the numerator/denominator can be reduced to a real number, which does not seem obvious to me). Am I missing something under my nose?

Another point that is relevant – according to the MIT paper (point 1 on page 11), the transfer function of a real world physical system will never have more zeros than poles (i.e. \$n_0 \le n_p\$). This is probably why there is "the order \$m\$ of the numerator is smaller than or equal to the order \$n\$ of the denominator" in Appendix F of Microelectronic Circuits.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2026, 04:28:05 am by max.wwwang »
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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #83 on: May 01, 2026, 12:25:42 pm »
I still don't quite get this. I get it that in the case of \$H(s)=s+1\$, there is a zero at -1 and a pole at ∞, and in the case of \$H(s)={1\over s+1}\$, there is a pole at -1 and a zero at ∞. But I don't get the more general form that more zero terms means that there are poles at ∞, and more pole terms means that there are zeroes at ∞ (it's so only if any pair of pole/zero items in the numerator/denominator can be reduced to a real number, which does not seem obvious to me). Am I missing something under my nose?
Poles and zeros at +/-infinity are basically an academic exercise, for all practical purposes they don't exist, except on paper (which can be useful, on paper).

Quote
Another point that is relevant – according to the MIT paper (point 1 on page 11), the transfer function of a real world physical system will never have more zeros than poles (i.e. \$n_0 \le n_p\$). This is probably why there is "the order \$m\$ of the numerator is smaller than or equal to the order \$n\$ of the denominator" in Appendix F of Microelectronic Circuits.
If I recall correctly, a transfer function which has no more poles than zeros (n >= m) is called a proper transfer function. Basically this means its gain doesn't blow up to infinity as frequency approaches infinity. It also implies causality, which must be true for all systems that exist in the real world.

For example one can draw the circuit for an opamp differentiator circuit and say its transfer function is just a zero at w=0. This is an improper transfer function, in reality the circuit must have at least one pole (due to finite bandwidth of the opamp, or parasitics in the passive components, etc). Though for the sake of analysis, it's often fine to ignore this (depends on what you're trying to analyze).
« Last Edit: May 01, 2026, 12:29:45 pm by mtwieg »
 

Offline MrAl

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #84 on: May 01, 2026, 01:25:43 pm »
Here are a couple plots that show a graphical view of what the poles and zeros look like in 2d and 3d drawings.
This isn't as much mathematical as it is graphical so you can get an idea what the response looks like.

Note the tops of these had to be cut off because they go all the way to infinity.
The 'surface' is the entire surface not the top circular part.
The arrow drawn to the top in Plot-2 points to the top of that mountain, but it should really point to infinity.


Thanks. Are you able to tell where these figures are from? So if interested someone may be able to find a fuller exposition of this subject there.
Yes, they come from the book: Engineering Circuit Analysis by William H. Hayt Jr. and Jack E. Kemmerly, Second Edition.
The book edition is from quite a long time ago and the newer editions are rather expensive, so you might find an earlier edition like that for cheap.
This is a calculus/differential equations based book so you would have to be at least a little familiar with that kind of math to get a lot of these concepts from the book.  It does however take you from the basics to the more advanced topics.  For example, the first chapter is about resistor circuits (algebra) and the last chapter, chapter 19, is about Laplace Transform techniques (calculus and differential equations).  Chapter 13 talks about complex frequency and poles and zeros (algebra and complex numbers).
Thank you! I managed to locate a pdf of its 8th edition online. I will remember to check out its Ch.14 Complex Frequency and Laplace Transform, as I'm now trying hard to grasp these subjects. Maths is a bit hard but I till try to handle (which in the end, is extremely rewarding).

Hi,

Not sure where you found that 8th edition but I hope it is legal to download it.
I can't be sure if the information I told you about is true for the 8th edition it may be a different chapter that for the 2nd edition.  I actually bought the hard cover book a long time ago when I was in a book club that specialized in technical publications.  I don't remember what the cost was now, but I am darn sure it was much cheaper than they are today :)
It was one of my favorite books back then.
 

Offline Salome2

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #85 on: May 01, 2026, 05:28:29 pm »
I may be the only one who noticed..but isn't astonishingly strange that the locus of this post-graduate university level topic happens to be  the Beginners blog?
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #86 on: May 01, 2026, 05:32:17 pm »
Even graduate students need to begin somewhere.
 

Offline 44kgk1lkf6u

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #87 on: May 02, 2026, 02:26:25 am »
I am interested in how many of us learned it in undergrad.  It makes perfect sense for colleges to teach it since a bunch of them will make feedback amplifiers.  It was part of my curriculum, although the professor did not go into detail about the relations between the amplitude and phase of network functions or the KK relations.
 

Offline max.wwwang

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #88 on: May 02, 2026, 08:52:23 am »
If I recall correctly, a transfer function which has no more poles than zeros (n >= m) is called a proper transfer function. Basically this means its gain doesn't blow up to infinity as frequency approaches infinity. It also implies causality, which must be true for all systems that exist in the real world.

For example one can draw the circuit for an opamp differentiator circuit and say its transfer function is just a zero at w=0. This is an improper transfer function, in reality the circuit must have at least one pole (due to finite bandwidth of the opamp, or parasitics in the passive components, etc). Though for the sake of analysis, it's often fine to ignore this (depends on what you're trying to analyze).
Thanks. So I now learned another useful term. It makes sense.

It was one of my favorite books back then.
Good to know!

Neutral | grounded
 

Offline mtwieg

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2026, 11:59:27 am »
I am interested in how many of us learned it in undergrad.  It makes perfect sense for colleges to teach it since a bunch of them will make feedback amplifiers.  It was part of my curriculum, although the professor did not go into detail about the relations between the amplitude and phase of network functions or the KK relations.
Anecdotally, at my university this was required material for the undergrad EE curriculum. One usually encountered it (laplace transform, fourier transform, bode plots, etc) in sophomore and junior years.
 

Online CatalinaWOW

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2026, 07:05:30 pm »
I am interested in how many of us learned it in undergrad.  It makes perfect sense for colleges to teach it since a bunch of them will make feedback amplifiers.  It was part of my curriculum, although the professor did not go into detail about the relations between the amplitude and phase of network functions or the KK relations.
Anecdotally, at my university this was required material for the undergrad EE curriculum. One usually encountered it (laplace transform, fourier transform, bode plots, etc) in sophomore and junior years.

At my uni it was all undergrad, with Fourier hitting in sophomore year, and all the rest by junior year.
 

Online Picuino

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #91 on: May 05, 2026, 03:36:08 pm »
In more advanced courses in control engineering, physical systems are modeled using time-domain equations, with state equations expressed in matrix form.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State-space_representation
 

Offline RoGeorge

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Re: Poles and Zeros
« Reply #92 on: May 12, 2026, 06:56:48 pm »
I didn't follow the thread, so not sure if this was already linked:

Understanding Poles and Zeros
https://web.mit.edu/2.14/www/Handouts/PoleZero.pdf

It's only 13 pages and very comprehensive.  It explains the link between the transfer function, poles and zeroes, Bode plots, s-plane and stability, with graphical examples (and almost no math at all).

It also shows how to manually deduce/convert graphically from one representation to another.  :-+
The linked pdf is a part of this MIT course:  2.14 Analysis and Design of Feedback Control Systems
« Last Edit: May 12, 2026, 07:11:52 pm by RoGeorge »
 
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