Advanced diploma electronics at TAFE (kinda want Dave to answer this question)

[StreuB1]

I missed that the said just "engineer". My point still stands though, I don't call myself a fitness instructor, and given that I only do fitness as a hobby, at best I'm a "fitness hobbyist" or "fitness amateur" despite being qualified. I'd make the same argument for "engineer". Amateur engineers have always called themselves hobbyists.
If I stopped doing engineering as a living or a hobby, I'd call myself a "former engineer" at best.

I understand where you're coming from. I'm probably looking more at the term in the etymological sense, with it originally meaning "cleverly devising". I guess that's trade versus activity.

I've never really heard many electronics hobbyists call themselves an engineer, it just doesn't seem to be a thing. Unlike a person who plays the violin I can imagine them calling themselves a "violinist".
Many qualified software engineers would call themselves a programmer, but I've never really heard a hobbyist programmer call themselves a software engineer?
The term engineer seems to quite vocationally oriented.

I would completely agree.

[jeremy]

I teach at university part time, but this is my personal opinion only. I did an undergraduate degree and a PhD in electrical engineering, and I deal with maybe 500 undergrad students every year. (If one of my students ever reads this, hi!). I personally don’t think that a degree makes an engineer (much like Dave has said), but it sure does help, even only as a way to get your foot in the door.

First, just to cut it off, I’ve never heard of any sort of GPU PCB stuff happening in Australia. I suspect it’s mostly just reference designs out of the US companies, which are then modified by the OEMs in Asia. That’s not to say it’s something you can’t do, but it’s pretty unlikely to be in Australia. There is certainly PCB work, but GPUs specifically I’m not so sure.

Can I suggest that you perhaps ask some companies what they would expect in terms of qualifications ? It is my experience that having an engineering degree generally gives you access to better paying and more interesting jobs, although the latter is subjective. Whether or not is should be that way is another argument which I will not involve myself in  I’m not sure I know of anyone who designs serious PCBs but is employed by their company as a technician. Particularly with complex designs (high frequency, high power, etc), you need to be aware that the PCB is very much part of your circuit, so you need to have a good understanding of how the circuit works as much as you need skills in general PCB design.

I obviously don’t know of your experience, but I regularly see students who consider mathematics to be their weak point. Heck, I consider that to be mine too (among lots of other things!). I think it is exceedingly rare to find someone who doesn’t struggle with the sort of maths you would use in some areas of engineering; in fact, the reason most simulation tools exist is because the maths is either too difficult or too much work for the average engineer. People also seem to learn very differently; some are great at absorbing it in a traditional classroom setting, whereas some need to do it themselves repeatedly (I’m in the latter category). All I’m trying to say is that if you don’t care about maths, then you might struggle doing electronics. But if you just find it difficult or intimidating but see the value in it, perhaps there are other learning strategies that might work better for you.

[CuteNotGate]

First, just to cut it off, I’ve never heard of any sort of GPU PCB stuff happening in Australia. I suspect it’s mostly just reference designs out of the US companies, which are then modified by the OEMs in Asia. That’s not to say it’s something you can’t do, but it’s pretty unlikely to be in Australia. There is certainly PCB work, but GPUs specifically I’m not so sure.

Yea pretty much its all done over in silicon valley or any other overseas cooperation. I'm all ways been interested in the circuits in computer hardware. The careers adviser at my high school said to me "even if i had the aptitude to do an bachelors in electronic engineering you wont be able to get to do want you want to do, because its done elsewhere other then Australia e.g. Intel and Nvidia" That's why I wanna a do an advanced diploma in electronics it requires an less mathematical ability that I think I should be able to handle it. But I was reading some where that electronics technician are become an less of importance in this age, because of the no need for repairing any electronic equipment when you could just get an new one unless for the militarily.

[rstofer]

Around here, Calc I is a 1st semester class in an engineering program and that assumes you have the equivalent knowledge of Pre-Calc which is a two semester class.  Pre-Calc assumes a decent background from high school.  But 2 semesters is a full year and it doesn't even count toward graduation.  That's one of the reasons engineering programs are now more typically 5 years than 4.  And don't even think about skipping Pre-Calc, you will struggle mightily with the low level details when you take Calc I.  There is a saying that "Calculus is easy, it's Pre-Calc that's difficult!".  It's a fair assessment.  Here's a hint:  Don't take Pre-Calc I as a short summer class.

Given the Internet and resources like Khan Academy and CalcWorkshop (fee), math is getting more approachable.  There are so many tutorials just watch some and see how it works out.  NancyPi is good (and easy on the eyes).  Her channel used to be MathBff.

[EEVblog]

Can I suggest that you perhaps ask some companies what they would expect in terms of qualifications ?

IME most companies don't care about qualifications, and it usually goes down the bottom of your resume as a footnote here in Australia as a result.
As you said though, it help you get your foot in the door, and is essential in some jobs, but once oyu have experience that is what companies care about.

All I’m trying to say is that if you don’t care about maths, then you might struggle doing electronics.

Most electronics design work does not require complex math, and you can go your entire career without ever needing to use calculus for example.
Of course there are some jobs you might use it daily, but I think if you polled the design engineers on here you'll find they hardly need it.
That's not to say it's not important etc, and you certainly need to know the concepts.

The issue here is that the OP can't get into university, he doesn't have the grades, isn't mature age, and likely doesn't have much experience to special plead to the dean with.
So really the 3 year TAFE diploma is the go, with the option to transfer into uni later if desired.

[mrpackethead]

Most electronics design work does not require complex math, and you can go your entire career without ever needing to use calculus for example.
Of course there are some jobs you might use it daily, but I think if you polled the design engineers on here you'll find they hardly need it.
That's not to say it's not important etc, and you certainly need to know the concepts.

simple problem.   A capacitor attached to a fixed DC rail ( and GND ).    At time t, after the rail is turned on, what is the current flowing into the cap?

What branch of mathmatics do you use to solve this problem.

[EEVblog]

Yea pretty much its all done over in silicon valley or any other overseas cooperation. I'm all ways been interested in the circuits in computer hardware. The careers adviser at my high school said to me "even if i had the aptitude to do an bachelors in electronic engineering you wont be able to get to do want you want to do, because its done elsewhere other then Australia e.g. Intel and Nvidia" That's why I wanna a do an advanced diploma in electronics it requires an less mathematical ability that I think I should be able to handle it. But I was reading some where that electronics technician are become an less of importance in this age, because of the no need for repairing any electronic equipment when you could just get an new one unless for the militarily.

If you get the 3 year diploma you are not a "technician" unless you take a job as a technician!
I'll say it again, your title is not described by your qualifications, it is described by what job you do.
There is nothing stopping a diploma qualified person from applying to jobs that advertise a degree as a minimum requirement. Here in Australia they often just put that minimum as a token of what they expect. There are cases where you may not get passed HR without it, so you go around HR and straight to.
The hard part is getting that first engineering job (with or without a degree), and then you have something to sell yourself with.

I've done videos on job interview tips, and one of the main things is to work on project so you have something to show off and take along. If all you have on your resume if your qualifications you aren't going to stand out, regardless of what those qualifications are.

As an employer, many times I've got people in with lesser (or even no) qualifications but with lots of interesting hobby projects under their belt over someone that got the university medal but otherwise has nothing else to show.

[jeremy]

Most electronics design work does not require complex math, and you can go your entire career without ever needing to use calculus for example.
Of course there are some jobs you might use it daily, but I think if you polled the design engineers on here you'll find they hardly need it.
That's not to say it's not important etc, and you certainly need to know the concepts.

simple problem.   A capacitor attached to a fixed DC rail ( and GND ).    At time t, after the rail is turned on, what is the current flowing into the cap?

What branch of mathmatics do you use to solve this problem.

the google search branch: https://planetcalc.com/1980/

  (sorry, bad joke, please ignore me)

[rstofer]

Most electronics design work does not require complex math, and you can go your entire career without ever needing to use calculus for example.
Of course there are some jobs you might use it daily, but I think if you polled the design engineers on here you'll find they hardly need it.
That's not to say it's not important etc, and you certainly need to know the concepts.

simple problem.   A capacitor attached to a fixed DC rail ( and GND ).    At time t, after the rail is turned on, what is the current flowing into the cap?

What branch of mathematics do you use to solve this problem.

Exponentials are covered in Algebra I according to Khan Academy.  Really, Vc = Vs(1-e^-t/Tau) is pretty simple.

Now, i = C * dv/dt probably has to wait until Calc I.  It can be hand-waved much earlier.  If we include a series resistor, it is much easier:  i = V/R * (e^-t/Tau)  V is the applied voltage.

[rstofer]

Maybe electronic engineering deals with signals.  Here math goes completely off the rails with Laplace Transforms, Fourier Analysis and the ever popular Fast Fourier Transform.  Yes, these are just tools but it takes a dumpster full of math books to get them in your toolbox.  Fortunately, MATLAB will do the grunt work.  All the engineer needs to do is set up the problem.  Which always was the hard part!

How about an RLC circuit?  Seems simple enough, it simply produces the electrical equivalent of damped harmonic motion.  No big deal!  A second order differential equation can solve it easy enough.  Oh wait, doesn't Differential Equations come after Calc III or, sometimes, after Calc II?  Wherever, it's pretty far along the path!

Of course, for differential equations, 'solving' has a different meaning.  It's not like x=3 is a result.

All of these things are learnable.  There are some terrific resources and even community colleges cover most of it.  That is, many of these things would be covered in a two year STEM program - up to the AS level.

[rstofer]

The hard part is getting that first engineering job (with or without a degree), and then you have something to sell yourself with.

Not having any experience, other than taking classes, makes the first step into a job quite problematic.  Our local university requires two summers of internship before graduation and the university sets up the employer-student match.  You wake up one morning with an email to pack your bags, you're going to work!

I see two outcomes:  First, the student get exposed to industry and likes what their future holds or, second, they realize they made a really bad choice of major.

[gildasd]

Most electronics design work does not require complex math, and you can go your entire career without ever needing to use calculus for example.
Of course there are some jobs you might use it daily, but I think if you polled the design engineers on here you'll find they hardly need it.
That's not to say it's not important etc, and you certainly need to know the concepts.

simple problem.   A capacitor attached to a fixed DC rail ( and GND ).    At time t, after the rail is turned on, what is the current flowing into the cap?

What branch of mathematics do you use to solve this problem.

Exponentials are covered in Algebra I according to Khan Academy.  Really, Vc = Vs(1-e^-t/Tau) is pretty simple.

Now, i = C * dv/dt probably has to wait until Calc I.  It can be hand-waved much earlier.  If we include a series resistor, it is much easier:  i = V/R * (e^-t/Tau)  V is the applied voltage.

I can thanks Khan academy getting me through the maths part of my degree.
Their gradual difficulty increase, the clear videos and being able to endlessly repeat exercises of a tough for you point was really great.

I now use it to get my 6 year old daughter into maths

[StreuB1]

Around here, Calc I is a 1st semester class in an engineering program and that assumes you have the equivalent knowledge of Pre-Calc which is a two semester class.  Pre-Calc assumes a decent background from high school.  But 2 semesters is a full year and it doesn't even count toward graduation.  That's one of the reasons engineering programs are now more typically 5 years than 4.  And don't even think about skipping Pre-Calc, you will struggle mightily with the low level details when you take Calc I.  There is a saying that "Calculus is easy, it's Pre-Calc that's difficult!".  It's a fair assessment.  Here's a hint:  Don't take Pre-Calc I as a short summer class.

Given the Internet and resources like Khan Academy and CalcWorkshop (fee), math is getting more approachable.  There are so many tutorials just watch some and see how it works out.  NancyPi is good (and easy on the eyes).  Her channel used to be MathBff.

One comment......

Methods of solving definite integrals of rational expressions using Partial Fractions Decomposition. The one often poorly covered topic from Precalc1 that comes back to rape you in Calc2.

[EEVblog]

Not having any experience, other than taking classes, makes the first step into a job quite problematic. 

And that's the trick, only a fool does that. Don't try and compete with a thousand other clueless graduates with no experience in anything.
Just work on your own projects (or join other projects and contribute) and you'll have something to show.

[Inverted18650]

three things:

1.Dave replied and gave you amazing words of wisdom.

2.Even asking for Dave, you got others to give you their professional opinion.

3.This forum is gold!

[rstofer]

Around here, Calc I is a 1st semester class in an engineering program and that assumes you have the equivalent knowledge of Pre-Calc which is a two semester class.  Pre-Calc assumes a decent background from high school.  But 2 semesters is a full year and it doesn't even count toward graduation.  That's one of the reasons engineering programs are now more typically 5 years than 4.  And don't even think about skipping Pre-Calc, you will struggle mightily with the low level details when you take Calc I.  There is a saying that "Calculus is easy, it's Pre-Calc that's difficult!".  It's a fair assessment.  Here's a hint:  Don't take Pre-Calc I as a short summer class.

Given the Internet and resources like Khan Academy and CalcWorkshop (fee), math is getting more approachable.  There are so many tutorials just watch some and see how it works out.  NancyPi is good (and easy on the eyes).  Her channel used to be MathBff.

One comment......

Methods of solving definite integrals of rational expressions using Partial Fractions Decomposition. The one often poorly covered topic from Precalc1 that comes back to rape you in Calc2.

How interesting you should bring that up!  Everybody should have to know that method and actually be able to use it and do just one problem!  The rest of the time they would be better served to use MATLAB.  It knows more about factoring and partial fractions than I'll ever know.

Last weekend, my grandson and I were working on a problem for his MATLAB class - a required course in the engineering curriculum.  It has to do with the shift in the color of an object as it approaches the speed of light known as the relativistic Doppler shift.  He had not been taught to use the solve() function (it's just the first week) so he had to do all the algebra to solve the ugly equation in terms of v and then let MATLAB just plug in the numbers.  But MATLAB knows more about algebra than we will ever.  Use the solve() function and leave it alone.

The equation:

lp = ls * sqrt( (1-v/c) / (1+v/c) )

v is the velocity at which the color has changed and c is the speed of light.

It's really kind of ugly dividing both sides by ls, squaring both sides and then clearing out that fraction.  Or you can use MATLAB solve()

Code: [Select]

[font=courier]
syms v           % approach velocity at which red light appears green
c     = 300e6; % speed of light in meters/second
ls    = 630;     % wavelength of red light
lp    = 530;     % wavelength of green light
eq1 = lp == ls * sqrt((1-(v/c))/(1+(v/c)));
vel  = solve(eq1,v); % solve for v and put result in vel
format shortEng     % exponents are multiples of 3
double(vel)          % print result as numeric doouble precision

ans =

    51.3426e+006
[/font]

So, at about 51,000,000 meters per second (or just 51,000 km/second) which is about 0.6 times the speed of light, a red light will appear green.

Obviously, MATLAB can do things like definite and indefinite integrals, take derivatives, mess around with trigonometric functions and a whole lot more.  I'm not a salesman but I am a huge fan.

Code: [Select]

>> syms x
>> int( sin(x) ) % indefinite integral of sin(x)
 
ans =
 
-cos(x)

Octave is free and will do the same kinds of things.  I think a first semester course in MATLAB is definitely the way to go.

[rstofer]

Not having any experience, other than taking classes, makes the first step into a job quite problematic. 

And that's the trick, only a fool does that. Don't try and compete with a thousand other clueless graduates with no experience in anything.
Just work on your own projects (or join other projects and contribute) and you'll have something to show.

For my grandson, not only will he have to do 2 summers of internship, there are also "engineering clubs" on campus.  Besides consuming vast quantities of caffeine, pizza and beer, I have no idea what they do but I hope it involves collaborative projects.  A 'robotics' club is always a good sign.  We'll see...

[jeremy]

The rest of the time they would be better served to use MATLAB.  It knows more about factoring and partial fractions than I'll ever know.

Octave is free and will do the same kinds of things.  I think a first semester course in MATLAB is definitely the way to go.

If I may make a humble suggestion:

If MATLAB/octave works for you, then it's great, but I (and many of my colleagues) try to ensure my students also get some experience with the python/numpy/scipy/sympy (usually through the anaconda python distribution); in particular, jupyter notebooks with all of the plotting tools built in are extraordinarily useful, and are becoming more and more common in academic literature. But the main reason is that a number of recent graduates who have gone to work for smaller businesses have told me that their managers baulked at the price of MATLAB and just said no.

Personally though, I think python is way better so I am a bit biased there...

[CuteNotGate]

Thank all for your help everyone. So I have decided to do the advanced diploma in electronics. 

* An note for Dave. So far I noticed this thread has gained lots of attention for education in electronics. I think you should add an board for education in the EEVblog forums ? 

E.g.

- Education
       -- Australia
             --- University
             --- TAFE
       -- Other Country's
             --- University 
             --- Other

 
 

[EEVblog]

Thank all for your help everyone. So I have decided to do the advanced diploma in electronics. 

 

* An note for Dave. So far I noticed this thread has gained lots of attention for education in electronics. I think you should add an board for education in the EEVblog forums ? 

As a general rule the forum users don't like having too many categories.

[rstofer]

The rest of the time they would be better served to use MATLAB.  It knows more about factoring and partial fractions than I'll ever know.

Octave is free and will do the same kinds of things.  I think a first semester course in MATLAB is definitely the way to go.

If I may make a humble suggestion:

If MATLAB/octave works for you, then it's great, but I (and many of my colleagues) try to ensure my students also get some experience with the python/numpy/scipy/sympy (usually through the anaconda python distribution); in particular, jupyter notebooks with all of the plotting tools built in are extraordinarily useful, and are becoming more and more common in academic literature. But the main reason is that a number of recent graduates who have gone to work for smaller businesses have told me that their managers baulked at the price of MATLAB and just said no.

Personally though, I think python is way better so I am a bit biased there...

Octave is the GNU replacement for MATLAB and it works very well plus it's free!

At the companies I worked for open source software was never used.  Not even considered!  Primarily it goes to the licensing schemes.

Engineers, OTOH, are very expensive.  In Silicon Valley, the median cost for an engineer might be $150k.  Buying a license for MATLAB is chump change, especially since it is transferable.  Negotiating a site license with a seat count (or number of open instances from a server) might be even better.  I don't know if that is available.  The cost of software tools is a deductible business expense.

To my knowledge, and it's limited, there is no analog to Simulink in Python or it's add-ons.  MATLAB itself is a great tool but when you add in the specialized toolboxes, it becomes even better.  The student edition is $99 and toolboxes are similarly discounted.  The Home edition is $149 and toolboxes tend to run around $49.

OTOH, the SymPy library looks like it may be useful. I need to study that!

There are other tools like Mathematica and Maple plus, of course, online tools like symbolab.com and desmos.com.  At some point, symbolab becomes a subscription site.  If you need detailed explanations at some level, you have to pay some nominal amount.  Not a big deal.

It pays to have a bunch of tools in your toolbox.  You never know what you might have to use.

Simulink diagram of Mass, Spring, Damper is attached and this general solution works for R-L-C circuits as well..   It is specifically organized to mimic an analog computer solution and is built up with a simple drag and drop interface.  Just drop in an integrator wherever you want!  How cool is that?  Analog computers are another way to play with differential equations!