Another 3Way Switch Wiring

[Larsson55]

Sorry forgot to mention that the thin red wire on the switch is removed

[IanB]

The reason I try a new timer now is because I had a timer before in the same location for 20+ years (which I install it myself) and it was working perfect until due to a power outage it did not work after. So I thought perhaps these timers are easier to get them going

Did the timer previously have two-way switching on the light? If so, what did the timer do? Like, for instance, if you turned the light off with the remote switch, would the timer turn it on again? It's very confusing when you say "timer", since it is hard to understand what it did.

When I think timer, I think of a switch that you push and the light stays on for a minute or so, and then switches off again. This kind of timer? If so, how did it used to work with the remote switch in the other location?

[Larsson55]

It was a programmable timer (like the one I just bought now) where you set the times / days when the light will go ON/OFF. I had it set to turn the light ON at midnight and OFF at 6AM for every day and it worked for all these years. Very strange IanB to have now this impossible situation

[Larsson55]

Had this idea just now, I will return the timer I just bought and get another type, kind of more simple. The one I have now it's called "Astronomic Programmable Timer"

[IanB]

It was a programmable timer (like the one I just bought now) where you set the times / days when the light will go ON/OFF. I had it set to turn the light ON at midnight and OFF at 6AM for every day and it worked for all these years. Very strange IanB to have now this impossible situation

No. This still does not make any sense.

A two way switching arrangement has one light, two switches. You can turn the light on at one switch, and turn it off at the other switch. Or vice versa.

How exactly does an on/off timer fit into this arrangement? How does it turn the light on at one end and turn it off at the other end? Did the lights ever work this way?

My confusion remains.

[themadhippy]

I will return the timer I just bought and get another type, kind of more simple.

stop  wasting your time,get the circuit working correctly first with bog standard manually operated 3 way switches .

[IanB]

I will return the timer I just bought and get another type, kind of more simple.

stop  wasting your time,get the circuit working correctly first with bog standard manually operated 3 way switches .

Exactly. If it doesn't work with a simple switch, it will never work with a timer.

So put the timer on the shelf, use a simple three way switch, and figure out the wiring to make it work.

[MarkF]

Its getting too complicated MarkF, in that box there are at the back two cables with 3 conductors each (blk, red, wht) + 2 more cables with 2 conductors each. The box is rally packed. One of the 2 cables with the 3 is feeding the 3-way switch and the rest I can't figure out where they are going - too difficult to see.

Your schematic has the wires to the light after the switch and in my case the light is in the middle of the run, don't know if it makes a difference.

Just called a local company to have the switch installed and forget about it and we are talking about +200.00 for a visit!!! So forget about paying this kind of money to have a switch installed

My schematic has the light in the middle of the run just like your wiring:


As for wires, you have two sets of three conductor wires (one set goes to the switch you're working on the other to the middle 3-way switch).  You say there's two sets of two conductor wires.  One of these must go to the single switch and the other must be power coming into the box.  At a minimum the single switch on the left will have both of one of the sets of two connected to it (power, light, or whatever all at the other end).  Should be easy enough to see.  The other option is that the single switch and both 3-way switches are powered from the second set of two wires.

You said you traced the black wire on the dark switch terminal and the black wire (of three conductor) to the neutral.  Are they both going to the one of the two conductor cables?

If this power coming in is wired correct, your light should be working.  Near as I can tell, both 3-way switches and the light are wired correctly and match my schematic.  It's now just the power feed.

Do you have a black and a white wire on the single switch on the left?  Or two black wires?

The 3-way switch in the middle, do all three wires from three conductor cable go to each of the three screws?  (i.e. is it wired like your corridor 3-way switch?)

[Larsson55]

"No. This still does not make any sense.

A two way switching arrangement has one light, two switches. You can turn the light on at one switch, and turn it off at the other switch. Or vice versa.

How exactly does an on/off timer fit into this arrangement? How does it turn the light on at one end and turn it off at the other end? Did the lights ever work this way?

My confusion remains. "
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Just to answer your question IanB, the timer I installed 20+ years ago was also like a regular ON/OFF switch but it can also turn ON/OFF the light at pre-programmed times. It worked like that for so many years. As far as I know all programmed timers work the same, the button in the front of the timer acts like an ON/OFF switch. Perhaps in USA you call them something else
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MarkF many thanks for the new schematic and to answer your questions.....
All I know the 3 way switch in the Family room has a cable with 3 wires (BLK RED WHT) entering the box and connected to the switch, I did not pay too much attention where the other wiring was going since it was not important. We should not forget that since I moved into this house years ago no one has opened this box and all was working fine.

As I mentioned in my #74 post I was thinking to pay an electrician to come and fix the problem but at $200 cost + the $50 I paid for the new timer was too much.

The conclusion is that I returned the timer and bought another one (Leviton VPT24-W $36.00). Connected the BLK RED WHT wiring and nothing happens - the light did not come ON regardless the switch position in the Family room. 

So I removed the Leviton and connected an old 3 way switch I had (at the same time I re installed the red wire jumper in the Family room 3 way switch like it was before). The wiring on that switch is as per your schematic and still doesn't work. That switch must be in the up position otherwise the switch in the Family room doesn't work. If I have this switch in the down position the light is ON and the switch in the Family room does not turn OFF the light. Considering the frustration so far I'm happy!

I will not do any other work folks cause this is an unsolvable mystery plus I think I will damage the circuit breaker in the panel after the so may times I turn it ON/OFF

Many many thanks to all

[themadhippy]

at the same time I re installed the red wire jumper in the Family room 3 way switch like it was before

is that the wire mentioned in post 51,the one that links the common /dark terminal to the terminal with the red wire? if so get rid of it,chuck it in the bin.just as a sanity check confirm continuity in  the red wire between switches and the white wire with both swiches removed,also check the blacks in the switches are the ones apearing at the celling,if all thats good marks diagram WILL

[Larsson55]

is that the wire mentioned in post 51,the one that links the common /dark terminal to the terminal with the red wire? if so get rid of it,chuck it in the bin.just as a sanity check confirm continuity in  the red wire between switches and the white wire with both swiches removed,also check the blacks in the switches are the ones apearing at the celling,if all thats good marks diagram WILL

Sorry but for now I will not remove the red jumper unless an electrician does that, this jumper has been there since the house was built and there must be a reason. I will do the "sanity" check tomorrow.

[themadhippy]

but for now I will not remove the red jumper

in that case dont bother to sanity check the wiring as it will never work as a 2 3 way lighting circuit with that link in place

[MarkF]

In one of the switch positions, the switch should be doing exactly what the little red jumper wire does.
Since these are old 3-way switches and you have no way to test them, my guess is that one or both of the switches is bad.

By the way, you said earlier that the jumper is to turn the 3-way switch into a 2-way switch.  That is NOT true.  If you want to use a 3-way as a single on/off switch, you just use the dark screw and one of the brass screws.  Ignoring the second brass screw.

At this point I don't know what to tell you to do.  Unless you missed something and the wiring doesn't match my drawing or there is a loose connection, it should work.

The little jumper wire does indicate a bad switch.  I suggest replacing both of them.

[MarkF]

You could also take the two red wires and the two white wires apart up at the light.
Re-connect each making sure they are making good connection.

While you have them apart. You could take you tester and check for power on one or the other (red/white) to the black wire.  Toggle the switch and get power of the other (white/red) to black wires.  WITHOUT THE JUMPER WIRE.

There is NO scenario in any 2-way, 3-way or 4-way switch configuration where it is appropriate to have that jumper.
If it's always been there, then the light never worked correctly.

[Larsson55]

I appreciate you guys your knowledge and time but on my end I know that I bought this house in 1998 and have renovated myself twice but never touched the existing wiring. Only in the garage I added extra lights/plugs all from the existing wiring. In any case the garage wiring is on a different breaker. All I'm saying the red wire jumper was installed for a reason and during all these years I had no electrical problems. In addition, when I work in that box where the jumper is I have to cut the main power off and the family complains. I know there are only 2 breakers serving that box however there are so many wires in there and for my safety I feel better with the power off.

[soldar]

See below a picture, with credit to BigClive for drawing it. I borrowed it from one of his videos, but I think it explains the wiring and the measurements obtained.

I find that drawing somewhat confusing and I have this schematic in my mind since many decades ago. They are basically the same but I find mine more intuitive.

[themadhippy]

I find that drawing somewhat confusing and I have this schematic in my mind since many decades ago.

The drawing by big clive ,whilst not initially intuitive,is how  your likely to find a  domestic  2 way circuit wired in the uk.It makes sense for the way we wire our lighting circuits as the "switch line" stays the same whether its a one way or 2 way circuit,plus  it makes converting a one way circuit into a 2 way very easy.

[Larsson55]

Well folks the mystery is SOLVED!!! and the Jumper IS REQUIRED

I knew I had programmable lights timer installed in the same location and was working for 20+ years and I was wondering why now it's not working. So just now I decided to search for "lights timer with no neutral" and what I find?

INTERMATICS EJ500C

I bought the old timer about 20 years ago and my local stores do not have any similar but it's available at eBay and Amazon for about $10.00

I attach a portion of the users guide which explains how to install the "Jumper"

So my "sanity" is back to normal

My thanks to all for the great help