Anyone tried VUTRAX

[Zero999]

I've just about got comfortable with using Eagle for all the things I need but I know the limit on 160x100 is going to get in the way.

Although it's not on the same league as Protel, it's better than I thought it would be but still falls far short of what I expect from a PCB program.

Now I thought I'd give myself a challenge: find a program with a poorer UI than Eagel and I  think I've done it, VUTRAX. It was obviously built back in the 80s before GUIs were mainstream and they've not bothered to improve since then!

I've just started using it and although I'm using Windows XP, VUTRAX still looks like an old school UNIX program.

Anyway, I'm going to withhold judgement for now, it might be a very good program, the ability to make larger PCBs with the free version will hopefully make it more useful than the freeware version of Eagle.

EDIT:
I've also seen a job which requires VUTRAX so even though I'm not going to apply for that job, I'll still going to learn it because it will hopefully make me more employable.

Anyway I've not made any progress because I've been out. I'll have another play tomorrow and tell you what I think, hopefully I won't loose my temper too quickly.

[EEVblog]

Are they serious with those prices?
The full package is around the same cost as Altium!

Dave.

[migsantiago]

Hi!

There's the Freemium edition of Eagle which allows more stuff than the Free edition. You can get it for free from Farnell (in my case it's Newark in Mexico):

http://www.element-14.com/community/docs/DOC-13200/l/eagle-by-cadsoft-computer-inc

You can download the EAGLE light and Freemium editions for free! Simply select the file below  which contains the EAGLE installation data for your operating system.  The Freemium edition has more features such as being able to design larger boards and use more schematic sheets.  Freemium requires an activation code that can be obtained here http://www.element-14.com/eagle-freemium

You could search for this link but in the Farnell website for your country.

[alm]

If I recall correctly, this 'freemium' license is time-limited.

The open-source Kicad package is getting better and has obviously no artificial limits like board size or commercial use.

[Zero999]

Yes freemium is time limited, it does annoy me when developers use misleading terms like that.

I didn't look at the price of VUTRAX.

Kicad is next on my list. I wonder if any companies use it? At the moment I want to learn software which will increase my chances of getting a job.

I didn't get around to using VUTRAX again today, I'll update you all when I do.

[DavidDLC]

There is another player on the field:

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/07/21/designspark-freeware-pcb-design/

[Zero999]

There is another player on the field:

http://dangerousprototypes.com/2010/07/21/designspark-freeware-pcb-design/

It's not free though: you must provide personal information in return for a licence to use the software. This doesn't bother me, if I was worried about privacy, I'd just provide false information. What does concern me is the activation system; if they change the license so it's payware will the software suddenly stop working locking me out of my files?

With Eagle I know where I stand, I download it, I know its limitations, it's crippleware but they're honest about it.

[Zero999]

I'm working my way through the tutorial which is really long and complicated, here's a screen shot of the contents.

I started with the basic drawing but I got bored so I skipped to the schematic section which I've completed. The one thing that I can see annoying me so far is that it doesn't show any previews for any of the components when searching through the libraries which don't seem to be as comprehensive as Eagle's or Altium's. I'll probably skip the library sections as I'm not interested in learning how to build libraries at the moment; I'll jump to the rat's nest.

The UI certainly isn't as good as Eagle's which annoyed me because the screen doesn't pan when I move a component or route off the edge of the screen, VUTRAX takes things to a whole new level by not scrolling as the scroll bars are adjusted! To scroll one has to move the scroll bar and release the mouse button before it scrolls which used to be the case with software written 15 years ago but not with most new software.

On the plus site, it uses little memory, according to the system requirements it will run well on a P233 running Windows 95.

I'll continue to learn VUTRAX so I can add it to my CV but I won't be using it for boards as it's not user friendly enough. I'll check out KiCad for my own projects.

[armandas]

I'll continue to learn VUTRAX so I can add it to my CV but I won't be using it for boards as it's not user friendly enough. I'll check out KiCad for my own projects.

Why do you want to learn every PCB design software in the world? I think it's far better to choose one and know it well.

Which would you prefer?

CAD software
VUTRAX - 1 year
A!tium Designer - 1 year
EAGLE - 1 year
...

or

CAD software
A!tium Designer - 3 years
...

[Zero999]

The answer is simple: the more packages on my CV, the higher chance I'll be familiar with a one used by a future employer, so #1 suits me most at the moment.  Another thing is, if I've learned several packages (especially ones with a poor UI, like Eagle and VUTRAX), it indicates to a future employer that I can handle change and learn new software and will probably adapt more readily to whatever they use rather than someone else who's being using Eagle for the last 10 years.

Ideally I'd like to become an Altium expert because it's my favourite PCB package - I found it really easy to pick up and powerful too. To be honest, I'm no expert in any PCB software, I've only done three PCBs with Altium and that was just over a year ago ,so strangely enough, I now feel I know more Eagle, even though it's not so good. If I go for a job that requires Altium, I'll have a look on fileshare to see if I can download it so I can familiarise myself with it before the interview.

I also want to learn some KiCad too.

Anyone tried OrCAD? I might have a play with that if it's popular.

What are the most common electronic CAD packages? I might as well play with the most common ones.

[alm]

Pads and Allegro are both pretty popular is some parts of the world.

[Time]

Pads and Allegro are both pretty popular is some parts of the world.

Are cadence and allegro the same?

[alm]

Cadence is the company, Allegro and Orcad are both Cadence products. I think Orcad is the simple one, and Allegro is for the heavy lifting.

[EEVblog]

Why do you want to learn every PCB design software in the world? I think it's far better to choose one and know it well.

I tend to agree, but can understand the interview things.
Here in Australia it's easy, Protel/Altium has always been the industry standard. You are expected to know that and only that. If a company uses anything else then it's expected that you won't get staff who know how to use it.

Dave.

[jahonen]

Another software which is used around here along with PADS is Zuken CadStar, I believe they offer a demo version also. For heavyweight stuff other than Cadence, see Mentor Graphics PCB Expedition or BoardStation (these are not cheap, something like tens of k€'s, and I don't think they even offer a downloadable demo).

I think it would be probably wise to find out what industry in your country (or in the country you are targeting) is using. Reasonable knowledge of one high-end package should be quite sufficient. It is more practical to learn general techniques for example in EMC, RF/microwave PCB design, high-speed routing, pre- and post-layout signal integrity simulations (MG's HyperLynx is quite popular there!) and such, than quirks of specific programs. And many larger companies (like where I work) have practice where EE's only design the schematic and then some dedicated layout people try to figure out the layout Of course we must then check the work quite often and request some changes.

Regards,
Janne

[Zero999]

I was just about to give up but I found a job advertised which requires VUTRAX, although I think I'll leave it for now, there's no rush, the closing date is 26th August.

The problem I'm having at the moment is generating the rats nest. I can't seem to be able to figure out how to do it and I've followed the tutorial which seems to concentrate on libraries. One of the things that annoyed me is that it doesn't append the correct file extension when saving a file which is just poor design.

It does appear to have some handy features such as being able to set up net aliases easily and default trace sizes for different nets which would improve invaluable for something like a power supply. I'l keep trying for now but if the software is too frustrating, I'll question whether I'd want a job using software I hate. I remember being an electrical engineer and had to use Zuken E³ (not to be confused with CadStar) which was horrible to use and only seemed to make life harder.

EDIT:
I've got the rats nest sorted. I turns out I had forgotten the part about analysing the circuit to generate a list of connections. It turns out that I didn't select the correct footprints for some of the components, I wanted radial capacitors but I chose axial and I wanted through hole resistors but I chose SMT. I wouldn't have made these kind of errors using Altium or Eagle because they give a preview before placing components.

[Zero999]

I got fed up with VUTRAX in the end. It's just too much of a pain in the neck to use and doesn't have enough libraries to be any use and makes Eagle look easy.

If I go for a job which requires VUTRAX one of my questions will be whether they have a set of libraries or someone who is in charge of managing the CAD software. I'll tell them that I've tired VUTRAX before but I'll probably not say anything about me not getting on with it, but I think I'll mention the lack of libraries being an issue.

[Simon]

I've downloaded KiCAD and will start working on it soon, i'm still running with expressPCB  because time is limited and I want to complete a project before making a double mess by throwing a new development software in there too.

[Zero999]

I've used Kicad it's certainly better than Eagle on the UI side but it's severely lacking on the library front, I couldn't even find a footprint for a radial capacitor with a 5mm pitch, which is unacceptable as it's a very common part.

The things I like about it, is that the net names are displayed on the traces (like Altium) and you can create a board from a schematic, unlike Eagle which is totally rubbish in that respect, the board always needs to be created at the same time as the schematic otherwise it throws a wobbly because they don't match and you have to start again, which is unacceptable!

Unfortunately the board has to be created from the net list and doesn't dynamically update when the schematic is edited (like VUTRAX) bit it's a lot better than the Eagle way. There are probably lots of powerful tools which are missing from Kicad but present in Altium, Eagle and VUTRAX but haven't noticed yet.

I like the 3D modelling but it's nowhere near as good as Altium's 3D feature but it doesn't matter since a rough indication is good enough for most applications and this feature is missing from Eagle and VUTRAX.

I think Kicad has a lot of potential and could become a great piece of software and will hopefuly replace Eagle as the main choice for hobbyists.

[slburris]

I've looked at the presentations on the Altium site, and I definitely
like what I see.  But since they don't offer free or low cost hobbyist/non-profit
licenses, it's out of my league.  So I do my designs in Eagle.

I've been playing with the the Design Spark software and of course of the
first 5 parts I'm using in a design, only 1 seems to be in their library.
So now do I go build parts in this new software, which I'm not familiar
with, or go back to Eagle?

One of the parts I need is an XC3S200A-5VQG100C which is a non-trivial
part to get right.  With Eagle I can at least build something using the BSDL
file, but it's still a pain.

I've also played with DipTrace in the past, but haven't tried Vutrax.
I looked at Kicad once but at the time it seemed very unpolished to me.

Sigh.

Scott

[EEVblog]

I've looked at the presentations on the A!tium site, and I definitely
like what I see.  But since they don't offer free or low cost hobbyist/non-profit
licenses, it's out of my league.  So I do my designs in Eagle.

Altium do offer a low cost full version for students.

Dave.

[Simon]

yes but "students" are not interested in seriously doing stuff. Hobbyists always miss out on these scam deals, oh give it to the students then we can get them to learn it as the mother tongue and sell it to them for big bucks when they come out of uni because they will know no else. Well actually there are tons of hobbyists out here that have risen from nothing are self taught and won't even bother with these expensive products.

Yea KiCAD looks promising, I've got as far as drawing a diagram or part of one but am struggling as the ability to move wires and parts just sucks big time, it's the worst thing I've found yet, once something is placed and wired you have to remove the wires and move it with difficulty then redo the worse software yet for this. A massive nuisance and something they need to get better on. on the whole it looks like a promising package

[Zero999]

Yea KiCAD looks promising, I've got as far as drawing a diagram or part of one but am struggling as the ability to move wires and parts just sucks big time, it's the worst thing I've found yet, once something is placed and wired you have to remove the wires and move it with difficulty then redo the worse software yet for this. A massive nuisance and something they need to get better on. on the whole it looks like a promising package

As is true most of the time, it's not that the software can't do it, it's that it's not obvious to you how to do it which is frustrating. You need to use the drag command for that. You can either right click on a component and click drag the component or right click and select drag block after you've selected a group of components.

EDIT:
Do do it on the PCB, right click the component, you'll see the selection clarification menu, click footprint, another menu will appear, go to footprint (top item), again another menu will appear, click drag.

[djsb]

Footprints and schematic symbols are very easy to create in Kicad and there's a site where you can share libraries (http://www.kicadlib.org).Theres also a user group on yahoo groups where you can ask questions (http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/kicad-users). Just google kicad for more info.
Kicad is under very active development and is improving all the time. They use the Launchpad site for posting bugs etc. I follow it's progress because I helped to get the french documentation translated into english a year or so ago. Still a long way to go but it's greatest asset is it's free.
I'm starting to use A!tium designer for my serious projects as it's industry recognised and I believe will be used more in the future.

David.

P.S Just added links to kicad sites.

[Zero999]

I agree with that.

The thing that often annoys me with open source products is that developers don't often include contributions from others, for example, check out OpenOffice.org, the original distribution from Oracle is crap compared to GoOO.o which is what I use, I know OxygenOffice might be better but it's a huge download and isn't kept as up to date.

By the way, note the edit to my previous post: you can drag components on the PCB - I've just discovered how!

EDIT:
Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

[EEVblog]

yes but "students" are not interested in seriously doing stuff. Hobbyists always miss out on these scam deals, oh give it to the students then we can get them to learn it as the mother tongue and sell it to them for big bucks when they come out of uni because they will know no else. Well actually there are tons of hobbyists out here that have risen from nothing are self taught and won't even bother with these expensive products.

You won't get any argument from me!

Dave.

[DJPhil]

Kicad takes some getting used to, but it's wicked fast when you've adjusted. Try hitting ? in eeschema to see the shortcuts, many of them may work in the pcb layout as well. Sometimes I wish I could rewire LTSpice to use the same system as I always get confused when I switch. If something seems tedious, there's probably a faster way that's not too complicated.

I've been assembling Kicad models slowly as I go. I really need to do an overhaul on my default libraries and swap what I never use and what I always use. I doubt I'll work with anything else at a hobby level. That said, making and using the libraries, footprints, and 3D models can be a bit overwhelming and distracting. It looks like a lot of work to get everything set up to default and cross referenced, but I like the program enough that I'm looking forward to settling in.

Some links for Kicad libraries can be found at the My 2µF Blog, including the official Kicad heap as well as some very well done models with 3D libraries at other sites. There's a lot of international interest, so keep google translate handy.

Hope that helps.

[Simon]

yes but "students" are not interested in seriously doing stuff. Hobbyists always miss out on these scam deals, oh give it to the students then we can get them to learn it as the mother tongue and sell it to them for big bucks when they come out of uni because they will know no else. Well actually there are tons of hobbyists out here that have risen from nothing are self taught and won't even bother with these expensive products.

You won't get any argument from me!

Dave.

I didn't think I would from a down to earth person like yourself 

i used the DOS version of OrCAD at school and have used the more modern windows version, at the time with interest in simulations so it was a bit over the top for me, so I'm not exactly new to using this sort of software. I can see KiCAD will become a very good solution and I'm sure I'll settle into it. My belief is that if you have past experience of such programs "getting into" a new program should be intuitive

[EEVblog]

yes but "students" are not interested in seriously doing stuff. Hobbyists always miss out on these scam deals, oh give it to the students then we can get them to learn it as the mother tongue and sell it to them for big bucks when they come out of uni because they will know no else. Well actually there are tons of hobbyists out here that have risen from nothing are self taught and won't even bother with these expensive products.

You won't get any argument from me!

Dave.

I didn't think I would from a down to earth person like yourself 

Last I checked it wasn't again the rules for me to say what products I think Altium should have, and my views are well known anyway.
A low cost (say $500) version limited in some way would blow every other low cost EDA package out of the water overnight.
Add in a free version with similar restrictions to Eagle and you wipe out that market overnight too.

There are now three distinct markets for Schematic/PCB EDA tools - Free, affordable (for hobbyist/maker/one-man-band), and full blown higher end. Altium only cater for one of those markets and I think that's sad, because it's the best tool out there.

But I don't make the rules...

Dave.

[slburris]

There are now three distinct markets for Schematic/PCB EDA tools - Free, affordable (for hobbyist/maker/one-man-band), and full blown higher end. A!tium only cater for one of those markets and I think that's sad, because it's the best tool out there.

I'm not a student so I'm solidly in the hobbyist group.  If Altium was available for a few hundred dollars
in a non-commercial license, and came with *no* support except for the documentation, I'd be ordering it today! 
They make money and don't incur support costs, and I get a decent EDA packages, win - win!
I did buy the Eagle non-profit license for my hobbyist work for both version 4 and version 5.

I suspect I'm not alone in being willing to spend hundreds on a good package, but I can't spend $20K on them.
Individually each sale may not be a lot of money, but collectively it's a good chunk of change.

Companies like Microchip have practically made a business model catering to that middle market.  Heck,
I can *almost* buy PIC chips in the checkout line at the grocery store these days!  I suspect they were
going for mind share by making their stuff easily available and it worked.

Even the FPGA guys finally saw the light a few years ago and made some version of their design tools
available for free, but without any real support.  The result?  Look at all the people now doing
retrocomputing and retroarcade designs with their chips.  In my own designs, FPGAs have replaced
virtually all glue logic (except for the messy analog world!) and sometimes even the embedded
processors.

Anyway, Dave if you ever get a chance to put a bug in someone's ear about the markets Altium is missing out
on, I won't be sad if you mention it :-)

Scott

[Zero999]

I've used Kicad it's certainly better than Eagle on the UI side but it's severely lacking on the library front, I couldn't even find a footprint for a radial capacitor with a 5mm pitch, which is unacceptable as it's a very common part.

I was being a nube.

The 5mm capacitor is in the default library and I didn't need 5mm but 2.5mm.

I couldn't find it because it isn't on the footprint list for the polarised capacitor symbol and I didn't think of clicking on the display full footprint list (without filtering).

Some links for Kicad libraries can be found at the My 2µF Blog, including the official Kicad heap as well as some very well done models with 3D libraries at other sites. There's a lot of international interest, so keep google translate handy.

That's for that, some of the 3D models are great and I hope some of them become part of the official distribution.

[Zero999]

Here's my latest Kicad board, I'll post the source files if anyone's really interested.

[DJPhil]

Here's my latest Kicad board, I'll post the source files if anyone's really interested.

Looks good to me. I've developed the habit of making absolutely huge traces (75mil or so) and filling an enormous ground plane. I'm not sure it's always a good idea, but I like to skimp on etchant when I can and the boards I make are all through hole with big parts (so far). It took some work to get used to changing trace widths and pad sizes, but I've got it under control now.

I hope Kicad works out for you. I'm sort of a fan of it, and I like to see it do well.

[Zero999]

I think it has the potential to become an Eagle killer, at least for hobbyists.

I also like the way that the footprints aren't tied to the symbols: the Eagle way of having several identical resistor graphics just because the footprint is different is retarded.

It still has a fair way to come though I'll support it all the way. I'm an open source fan too. Don't get me wrong, I've no problem with proprietary software, it's just if something can be free and open, it's a really good thing.

[Simon]

Well I prefer free, but then I'm not making a living from it and it will be a while before i make any money (house decorating comes first then some solid testing before I release to the wild)