EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: killingtime on March 07, 2023, 01:03:34 pm
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Hi,
As title, looking to buy some new breadboards for prototyping. I'm aware that there are many threads on the causes of poorly performing breadboards. Looking to avoid Ebay & Amazon for this reason as there's no guarantee of quality. That leaves the big electro distributors in the UK. RS have their own brand which is expensive - but that's no guarantee of anything. CPC/Farnell seem to have their own brand (Multicomp) and (ProSignal). 3M boards don't seem to be sold in the UK. Anyone tried the above bands?
Thanks.
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You get what you pay for. I've used cheap breadboards from cpc ans they were shite.
Multicomp and prosignal are not brands, just umbrellas for "untraceable and made on the cheap". Mouser and Digikey in the UK carry 3M.
Cheap breadboards are a false ecconomy.
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Under multicomp brand you can get something quite decent or cheap junk. The problem is that you don't know beforehand unless you can figure out from which initial datasheet multicomp datasheet was cloned.
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Don't know how it goes in UK after brexit but I just got some Wisher breadboards from TME. There's quite a bunch different ones available. About 8 quid/830 holes, plus shipping. They feel good, as good as my old K&H. No need to use force to insert; clamping is good. Comparation with those Elegoo-branded, cheap breadboards, it's like heaven and hell.
I also got four different ones from Amazon and AliExpress. Let's say they turned out to be MB102 under that and other names. Amazon's one is still on the way. Price is half Wisher's. But insertion isn't so easy and clamping is definitely worse. They are clearly better than Elegoo's, however.
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I've had good luck with Busboard Prototype Systems breadboards. Not too expensive, but I don't know about a UK source. Digikey and Mouser carry them in the US.
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The best components and techniques I've encountered are outlined here (https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/), including reasons for the opinions.
Components are listed towards the bottom.
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The best components and techniques I've encountered are outlined here (https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/), including reasons for the opinions.
Components are listed towards the bottom.
Can you just let it go? Is it really necessary to rally against breadboards every single time?!?
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The best components and techniques I've encountered are outlined here (https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/), including reasons for the opinions.
Components are listed towards the bottom.
Can you just let it go? Is it really necessary to rally against breadboards every single time?!?
Yet another person asks the same old question and is repeating mistakes. Why don't you rail against them?
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I bought some Digilent ones here in the UK and have had no problems.
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Why don't you rail against them?
They're solderless. That makes them extremely useful and makes prototyping fast. The issues are not with the breadboards, and you know it. The issue is with people ignorantly pushing them past their limits. Want to prototype a multi-MHz digital or RF circuit? No problem! Just enjoy your troubleshooting!
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Thanks for your replies. I'll look into the brands mentioned. See if I can find any in the UK.
You get what you pay for. ..... Cheap breadboards are a false ecconomy.
Understood. The problem is price is no longer an indicator of quality in this day and age. So much is re-branded or copied. Brands come and go like the weather.
Yet another person asks the same old question and is repeating mistakes. Why don't you rail against them?
Easy fella. Re-read my post. I would buy a good board if I knew where to buy it from in the UK. The issue isn't I want a cheap board that's good, but where to even find a good board from in the first place. The clones outnumber the genuine thing by a huge factor. This is why the question comes up so much. It would be great if there was an updated thread listing trusted suppliers and brands, then we could just pick from a list. Even searching for brands doesn't work. The merchant has to be part of a trusted supply chain, or you risk getting a copy. Hence why I asked after CPC/Farnell offerings. They're likely to be the genuine thing, even if they are rubbish.
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CPC BB Brands ATM:
MULTICOMP
PRO SIGNAL
PRO'S KIT
TWIN INDUSTRIES
Of the above, only Twin Industries is a dedicated prototyping brand. They have their own website dedicated to proto. The rest are collective umbrella brands. Only one board offering though, and it is much more expensive then the rest. 9.50 for an 830 point board. Acceptable.
Selection at Farnell is a bit better, but can't work out who the OEMs are. The one 3M offering isn't actually a breadboard, but a backing plate for one.
MULTICOMP (29)
PRO SIGNAL (5)
PRO'S KIT (1)
WISHER (4)
BUD INDUSTRIES (5)
DFROBOT (1)
GLOBAL SPECIALTIES (10)
MCM (10)
MIKROELEKTRONIKA (1)
TWIN INDUSTRIES (2)
3M (1)
Given Twin Industries seems to specialize in proto, I'll order one and try it out. You'd hope that they do proto better than the rest if that's their thing.
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Why don't you rail against them?
They're solderless. That makes them extremely useful and makes prototyping fast. The issues are not with the breadboards, and you know it. The issue is with people ignorantly pushing them past their limits. Want to prototype a multi-MHz digital or RF circuit? No problem! Just enjoy your troubleshooting!
Er, no. As the OP notes, there is a problem with solderless breadboards: many are unreliable. Many people, including the OP, run into that.
Let's consider someone making a circuit that is well within the capabilities of a good breadboard. When, not if, someone has a problem with their experimental prototype circuit not behaving as they expect, is it because they don't understand their circuit or because this particular solderless breadboard+components aren't working nominally?
A beginner will be thoroughly confused by that, and quite possibly unnecessarily disheartened.
OTOH, someone that knows enough to be sure that their design is correct (and hence there's no problem with the solderless breadboard+components) doesn't need to prototype their circuit on a solderless breadboard in the first place.
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Easy fella. ...snip...
tggzzz has a particular bias against breadboards, and not without reason. They are problematic, especially at moderate to high frequencies. Their most notable issue is ringing. I think the limit is somewhere around 1 MHz before the problems start, and if you are not aware of the limitations of breadboards, you'll spend all your time debugging a breadboard issue masquerading as a circuit issue. Just know what you're getting into.
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Er, no. As the OP notes, there is a problem with solderless breadboards: many are unreliable. Many people, including the OP, run into that.
Let's consider someone making a circuit that is well within the capabilities of a good breadboard. When, not if, someone has a problem with their experimental prototype circuit not behaving as they expect, is it because they don't understand their circuit or because this particular solderless breadboard+components aren't working nominally?
A beginner will be thoroughly confused by that, and quite possibly unnecessarily disheartened.
OTOH, someone that knows enough to be sure that their design is correct (and hence there's no problem with the solderless breadboard+components) doesn't need to prototype their circuit on a solderless breadboard in the first place.
You're not wrong, but you throw the good breadboards in with the bad. A good breadboard, with an understanding of its limitations and potential issues, is a handy tool. The biggest issue is the user, not the tool.
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Yet another person asks the same old question and is repeating mistakes. Why don't you rail against them?
Easy fella. Re-read my post. I would buy a good board if I knew where to buy it from in the UK. The issue isn't I want a cheap board that's good, but where to even find a good board from in the first place. The clones outnumber the genuine thing by a huge factor. This is why the question comes up so much. It would be great if there was an updated thread listing trusted suppliers and brands, then we could just pick from a list. Even searching for brands doesn't work. The merchant has to be part of a trusted supply chain, or you risk getting a copy. Hence why I asked after CPC/Farnell offerings. They're likely to be the genuine thing, even if they are rubbish.
Easy fella. Re-read my two posts before yours (plus the one after), and the link I provided.
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Easy fella. Re-read my two posts before yours (plus the one after), and the link I provided.
Picking a breadboard is complicated... :D
Reminds me of picking HiFi components when I was a teenager. Each component seemed like a new science. Even the interconnects had their own magazine. When breadboards start selling with OFC contacts, then we're really screwed.
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Er, no. As the OP notes, there is a problem with solderless breadboards: many are unreliable. Many people, including the OP, run into that.
Let's consider someone making a circuit that is well within the capabilities of a good breadboard. When, not if, someone has a problem with their experimental prototype circuit not behaving as they expect, is it because they don't understand their circuit or because this particular solderless breadboard+components aren't working nominally?
A beginner will be thoroughly confused by that, and quite possibly unnecessarily disheartened.
OTOH, someone that knows enough to be sure that their design is correct (and hence there's no problem with the solderless breadboard+components) doesn't need to prototype their circuit on a solderless breadboard in the first place.
You're not wrong, but you throw the good breadboards in with the bad. A good breadboard, with an understanding of its limitations and potential issues, is a handy tool. The biggest issue is the user, not the tool.
I haven't come across a solderless breadboard that remains good over time. They degrade for many reasons including merely different size/shape leads being inserted repeatedly.
There's also the problem that many components will have been lying around and become tarnished or dirty. If they can be cleaned adequately, they will probably become rough/sharp - which is fine in the short term, but creates problems for the future.
If solderless breadboards were the only game in town, then we would live with the problems. But there are easy cheap readily available alternatives, so why expose ourselves to the pain.
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Easy fella. Re-read my two posts before yours (plus the one after), and the link I provided.
Picking a breadboard is complicated... :D
Remember the justly famous line in "War Games", viz "the only way to win is not to play" (with solderless breadboards).
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From what I've seen, a good quality breadboard (I tested 3M) can do 1 MHz easily and up to 10 MHz might be possible. You'd have to use good construction techniques though, keeping connections short and tight, no using those loopy "breadboard jump wires". I have a book that documents building an 8088 computer on breadboards, but I don't remember how fast it ran, maybe 5 MHz.
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I've had good luck with Busboard Prototype Systems breadboards. Not too expensive, but I don't know about a UK source. Digikey and Mouser carry them in the US.
I got quite a few BPS BB830 breadboards (BB1660 was actually 2 x BB830) on Ben Eater's recommendation - they seem pretty good to me.
Cheaper from Mouser than Amazon - if my memory is correct.
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The most useful accessory to a solderless beadboard is a rubbish bin. The moment that you suspect that the breadboard is playing up, bin it. They are not, in the grand scheme of things, expensive.
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From what I've seen, a good quality breadboard (I tested 3M) can do 1 MHz easily and up to 10 MHz might be possible. You'd have to use good construction techniques though, keeping connections short and tight, no using those loopy "breadboard jump wires". I have a book that documents building an 8088 computer on breadboards, but I don't remember how fast it ran, maybe 5 MHz.
The clock rate is completely irrelevant with digital circuits.
For a little theory and some plotted measurements, see https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2018/05/08/digital-signal-integrity-and-bandwidth-signals-risetime-is-important-period-is-irrelevant/
While I can believe that anecdote about an 8088, did it run reliably? When a program didn't work as expected, how would someone tell whether it was because the program was wrong or there was a pattern sensitive failure?
Having said that, intermittent pattern sensitive behaviour is an excellent mechanism for honing your debugging skills :)
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The most useful accessory to a solderless beadboard is a rubbish bin. The moment that you suspect that the breadboard is playing up, bin it. They are not, in the grand scheme of things, expensive.
The difficulty, especially for beginners, is determining whether "playing up" is due to their circuit, the breadboard, a dirty component, or stray inductance/capacitance?
Here's an example of stray inductance used as a circuit element. The mutual inductance between the horseshoe and the loop partially hidden behind it form a transformer. You bend the loop to get the correct amount of coupling! (For fun: there is a couple of hundred volts on that horseshoe, since it it connected to the valves' anodes)
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-the-best-way-to-test-a-circuit-design-with-surface-mount-parts/?action=dlattach;attach=1613548)
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The best components and techniques I've encountered are outlined here (https://entertaininghacks.wordpress.com/2020/07/22/prototyping-circuits-easy-cheap-fast-reliable-techniques/), including reasons for the opinions.
Components are listed towards the bottom.
Can you just let it go? Is it really necessary to rally against breadboards every single time?!?
There is nothing wrong to provide the same answer to the same question.
I second tggzzz's suggestion to consider soldering (deadbug etc. over bare copper clad PCB). The construction speed advantage from solderless breadboard is small; the time spent soldering air wires and components together over a ground plane is diminishingly small. The #1 advantage is you can keep these soldered "modules" and keep using them, without having to buy more and more solderless breadboards (or dismantle the prototypes to free up your breadboards).
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can do 1 MHz easily and up to 10 MHz might be possible.
Which is too little for practically all digital circuits with edge rates in range of hundreds of MHz. On the other hand, these ICs are nowadays on breakout boards anyway because of non-availability in DIP packages. It's a good idea to solder at least power supply bypass components on those breakout boards.
Breadboards are then fine as carriers for pre-designed microcontroller boards; like the classic Arduino would be if they did not mess up the pitch of their connectors.
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https://www.amazon.com/8088-Project-Book-Robert-Grossblatt/dp/0830602712 (https://www.amazon.com/8088-Project-Book-Robert-Grossblatt/dp/0830602712)
Most people using these breadboards are beginners doing fairly simple things or experienced people that know full well their shortcomings. I've never had an issue that was caused only by the board, but I use almost exclusively the 3M brand.
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Same laws of physics apply to beginners and professionals. Beginners mostly build digital circuitry in this era, microcontrollers and such. Spurious random resets and weird behavior is disencouraging especially for beginners; I still remember those days myself and later, struggles of others whom I have been mentoring. There are so many possible culprits, some more likely, some less likely: ESD damage, heat damage, software bugs (stack overflows, lack of volatile, overindexing and memory corruption), poor power bypassing, long power wiring (inductive power supply), poor contacts, especially with low-cost "dupont" wires, counterfeit components from Ebay.
Ruling out those that can be easily ruled out makes life so much easier.
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https://www.amazon.com/8088-Project-Book-Robert-Grossblatt/dp/0830602712 (https://www.amazon.com/8088-Project-Book-Robert-Grossblatt/dp/0830602712)
Most people using these breadboards are beginners doing fairly simple things or experienced people that know full well their shortcomings.
See Siwastaja's post.
People that have "experienced" the lack of problems with the alternatives rarely return to solderless breadboards.
I've never had an issue that was caused only by the board, but I use almost exclusively the 3M brand.
Whether or not a problem is "caused only by the board" is a meaningless distinction that is of no practical use - especially for beginners.
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I haven't come across a solderless breadboard that remains good over time. They degrade for many reasons including merely different size/shape leads being inserted repeatedly.
Then you need to try the best, which is 3M. Those are famous for remaining good even after decades of use. At my old work (a vocational training center) they have 3M breadboards from the 80s and 90s, all still in perfect working order — and as you can imagine, teenagers aren’t always the most gentle users.
As others have said: don’t slam the entire product category based on the junk. The good stuff really is good. (Which is also why it costs way, way more.)
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Same laws of physics apply to beginners and professionals. Beginners mostly build digital circuitry in this era, microcontrollers and such.
I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
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People that have "experienced" the lack of problems with the alternatives rarely return to solderless breadboards.
I think that’s a generalization that is basically impossible to make.
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Don't forget Rapid Electronics if you are in the UK. https://www.rapidonline.com (https://www.rapidonline.com)
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Here’s the thing about soldering prototypes: 1. Sometimes you want to experiment, not prototype a specific, more or less well-defined circuit.
2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t, and a breadboard is a great way to approach circuits without having yet become proficient at soldering. I think it’s entirely unreasonable to expect novices who still aren’t experienced at soldering to solder their experiments, because it means that their soldering frustrations can prevent them from ever exploring the circuits.
But ultimately, what irritates me about the anti-breadboard brigade here is their stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way. And this is why I call them out on it. They need to learn that things exist for a reason, and that just because it’s not right for them doesn’t mean it’s wrong for everyone else.
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I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
Analog is notoriously hard to get working on a breadboard, though. Opamps and comparators become oscillators when you apply tens of pF between random pins, even if your intended operational BW was supposed to be in single-digit kHz.
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2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t
But if you just start to solder, you will learn it pretty quickly. You can't avoid soldering anyway. Most of today's parts are in non-DIP packages so you need to solder them to breakout boards.
stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way
You are the only one with this attitude problem. Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice, and not interested about the possible emotions it causes in you. It is finally for the OP to decide what they want to do, given the facts. You can not silence the facts by this emotional BS.
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I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
Analog is notoriously hard to get working on a breadboard, though. Opamps and comparators become oscillators when you apply tens of pF between random pins, even if your intended operational BW was supposed to be in single-digit kHz.
It works fine for the low frequency stuff beginners need to do.
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
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2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t
But if you just start to solder, you will learn it pretty quickly. You can't avoid soldering anyway. Most of today's parts are in non-DIP packages so you need to solder them to breakout boards.
Nonetheless it is a skill that must be acquired. And the tiny SMD-only parts are often not suitable for dead-bugging either, at least not by soldering novices.
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I don’t think one can generalize like that. Some beginners like digital, others prefer analog.
Analog is notoriously hard to get working on a breadboard, though. Opamps and comparators become oscillators when you apply tens of pF between random pins, even if your intended operational BW was supposed to be in single-digit kHz.
It works fine for the low frequency stuff beginners need to do.
Siwastaja is right in many cases. There's an old maxim: "oscillators don't, amplifiers oscillate".
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
Ah. Your experiences and attitudes begin to make sense.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners, nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
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stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way
You are the only one with this attitude problem.
This debate has come up over and over and I am not the only one irritated by you guys and your arrogance. Others have expressed the same thing.
Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice
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given the facts.
And there’s that arrogance again: you guys aren’t giving facts, you’re giving opinions, but acting as though they were facts. (There’s nothing wrong with opinions, as long as you treat them as what they are.)
You are the only one with this attitude problem. Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice, and not interested about the possible emotions it causes in you. It is finally for the OP to decide what they want to do, given the facts. You can not silence the facts by this emotional BS.
I don’t object because of emotions. :palm: I object because you discourage people from using a useful tool just because YOU don’t like that tool. That’s dumb.
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2. Soldering up a circuit is only fast and easy for people who are experienced at soldering. Beginners aren’t
But if you just start to solder, you will learn it pretty quickly. You can't avoid soldering anyway. Most of today's parts are in non-DIP packages so you need to solder them to breakout boards.
Nonetheless it is a skill that must be acquired. And the tiny SMD-only parts are often not suitable for dead-bugging either, at least not by soldering novices.
True.
Given the choice between teaching beginners to:
- solder
- know how to avoid the problems with solderless breadboard construction techniques
I would choose the former and not the latter.
And that is what I have done :)
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stubborn, arrogant blindness to the fact that their way isn’t the only way
You are the only one with this attitude problem.
This debate has come up over and over and I am not the only one irritated by you guys and your arrogance. Others have expressed the same thing.
Others are just commenting factually, giving good advice
…
given the facts.
And there’s that arrogance again: you guys aren’t giving facts, you’re giving opinions, but acting as though they were facts. (There’s nothing wrong with opinions, as long as you treat them as what they are.)
Not true. Facts and reasons have been given.
Just because you haven't been bitten by a problem doesn't mean it isn't a real problem. Your "absence of (personal) evidence" of problems isn't "evidence of absence" of the problems.
There's a relevant English proverb "you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".
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Siwastaja is right in many cases. There's an old maxim: "oscillators don't, amplifiers oscillate".
I’m well aware.
But that’s not unique to breadboards. It can happen on veroboard, it can happen on dead bug, and it can happen on real PCBs. (I recently redesigned a PCB for someone whose amplifier — a device with 4GHz bandwidth — was oscillating. His layout had issues and so oscillated. My layout is stable.)
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
Ah. Your experiences and attitudes begin to make sense.
But just to be clear, that’s just to formalize what’s been a hobby for decades.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
Some are, some aren’t. They also get used for circuit design.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
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Siwastaja is right in many cases. There's an old maxim: "oscillators don't, amplifiers oscillate".
I’m well aware.
But that’s not unique to breadboards. It can happen on veroboard, it can happen on dead bug, and it can happen on real PCBs. (I recently redesigned a PCB for someone whose amplifier — a device with 4GHz bandwidth — was oscillating. His layout had issues and so oscillated. My layout is stable.)
Seriously. I’m just finishing up a 4-year apprenticeship in electronics. Breadboards are used constantly in education and they work fine for their intended purpose.
Ah. Your experiences and attitudes begin to make sense.
But just to be clear, that’s just to formalize what’s been a hobby for decades.
You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
Some are, some aren’t. They also get used for circuit design.
No doubt the projects and available/suggested components have also been carefully chosen to avoid most problems with solderless breadboards.
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
Not a good argument. Yoootoob is full of videos of people doing things that could easily go wrong but didn't. Pre-yoooutoob there were "hilarious" blooper TV programmes of people slipping/falling/hitting and walking away laughing.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Professionals know the problems and understand the reasons; that's why they choose to use cheap simple easy techniques with fewer problems.
As I taught my daughter, it is OK to make new mistakes, but try not to repeat old known mistakes.
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You have been recapitulating experiments that have been designed and tested to work with solderless breadboards before the apprentices are let loose with them.
Some are, some aren’t. They also get used for circuit design.
No doubt the projects and available/suggested components have also been carefully chosen to avoid most problems with solderless breadboards.
No, that’s really not how it is.
Some projects were specific experiments, but others are absolutely not, with the apprentices free to order whatever components they want for projects and stuff. To be clear, it is in no way limited to curated experiments!!
That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
Not a good argument. Yoootoob is full of videos of people doing things that could easily go wrong but didn't.
Again, the same can be said for veroboard builds and PCBs. But the fact that these circuits do work when assembled on breadboard means they the breadboard is not inherently incapable of being used for them, as you argue.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Professionals know the problems and understand the reasons; that's why they choose to use cheap simple easy techniques with fewer problems.
As I already said: those techniques eliminate some problems but introduce some of their own. And again, they require higher skill that cannot necessarily be expected of an absolute beginner.
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This debate
Yet, you are the one who makes it a debate. You just can't let go, you just can't accept the fact people are expressing their viewpoint. You can't accept people try to be helpful simply because you happen to disagree. You are the only one who is making this almost like a religious question. You are projecting your own absolute opinion of the matter unto others.
Please stop picking fights especially in the beginner section. Or actually, no, let's just use the ignore feature, which I seldom use, but it's good for chronic troublemakers. If others did the same and stopped responding in obvious trolling (by actual definition of trolling, and I mean it, not just namecalling; see reply #6), the forum would have better S/N ratio.
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That doesn't apply to the experiments done by most beginners
I vehemently disagree with this statement, based on both experience and from seeing what countless novices do e.g. on YouTube. Breadboards are used commonly for lashing things together.
Not a good argument. Yoootoob is full of videos of people doing things that could easily go wrong but didn't.
Again, the same can be said for veroboard builds and PCBs. But the fact that these circuits do work when assembled on breadboard means they the breadboard is not inherently incapable of being used for them, as you argue.
Strawman arguments aren't convincing.
Firstly, as you would realise if you had read my reference, I'm not a great fan of stripboards and related techniques. They each have their own problems, but they avoid some common problems inherent in solderless breadboards.
More importantly, I haven't claimed solderless breadboards can't be used. I do claim, for the justifications given, that they are inherently unreliable.
In a similar vein, I wouldn't claim that running into the road without looking inherently means you will be knocked down by a vehicle.
… nor to 99.9% that might be done as part of a professional engineering job.
I totally agree with this statement. But then again, nobody that asks about breadboarding is asking as a professional. They’re the beginners and hobbyists who are nowhere near “professional engineers”.
Professionals know the problems and understand the reasons; that's why they choose to use cheap simple easy techniques with fewer problems.
As I already said: those techniques eliminate some problems but introduce some of their own. And again, they require higher skill that cannot necessarily be expected of an absolute beginner.
Which is more valuable for a beginner:
- being lead towards appreciating better "higher" skills, or
- being lead towards debugging intermittent and pattern sensitive errors?
Well, I suppose using a solderless breadboard is a good "learning experience" hinting at the virtues of robustness, reliability, and predictability.
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I think this thread has gone a little off track.
I just wanted to know if a vendors merch was any good and it's descended into another battle of opinions on breadboard in general.
Each to their own guys.
All opinions noted. Thank you for your replies.