Author Topic: Beginner Components?  (Read 29171 times)

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Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2015, 09:34:24 pm »
Something you should definitely look at are 555 timer circuits. If you understand the basics, you will be amazed at what you can do with them. http://www.waitingforfriday.com/index.php/4-Bit_Computer

I've looked into 555 timers before and found this website http://www.555-timer-circuits.com/, do you know anything that might give some basic circuit tutorials for beginners?  Also, just to be clear, a 555 isn't absolutely necessary when you have a microcontroller, but it would be something to use if a whole microcontroller wasn't necessary?
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2015, 09:37:25 pm »
Completely confused there, what micro controller are you using and what are you trying to achieve ?

I'm a convert from the world of Javascript so I'm using an Espruino microcontroller, the cost of using a language I already know how to program in is that it's substantially slower than typical microcontrollers, but intuitively it seems like there would be a simple work around for this... turn an external component on that will have a PWM of 50MHtz until you tell it to turn off... the reason why this might be necessary is that you would need a higher frequency and voltage in order to control the speed of AC motors...

As far as the op amp, I was referring to controlling a DC motor that requires more current than the microcontroller puts out...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 09:40:17 pm by JacobEdward »
 

Offline WattsUp

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #27 on: February 22, 2015, 09:45:46 pm »
Yes, a microcontroller could do what a 555 timer does, but it is cheaper, simpler and more fun! I will try and answer your previous question from what I understand. Firstly, I think you misunderstand what an op amp does: it amplifies a signal (among other functions). It can't source more current, and you have to feed it a higher voltage than the maximum level of the amplified signal. Secondly, you can make a H bridge I believe, but be careful when working with high currents (keep it fused) and make sure you have the right transistors. Tbh, a pre made IC will only cost you £2 at most though.

  Motors are not my area of expertise, but I don't think you fully understand how to control one and how your micro controls them. Google around for pre made designs, and build on those for your own requirements. What Simon is saying is that you are not clear with what you are trying to say. Maybe if you ask the question again in a more detailed manner we will be able to help you out a little bit.
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Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #28 on: February 22, 2015, 09:57:58 pm »
Firstly, I think you misunderstand what an op amp does: it amplifies a signal (among other functions). It can't source more current, and you have to feed it a higher voltage than the maximum level of the amplified signal.

When you say amplifies a signal, what you mean to say is voltage is being added to an output that can still be controlled by the input signal that has a substantially lower voltage (aka if a microcontroller outputs 4.7 V to a OpAmp that amplifies the signal to 12V, the microcontroller can still turn off the 12V by turning off the input to the Op Amp).  I was under the impression that if you add Voltage to a signal, you are also adding current, all you have to do is increase the resistance (or wait... reduce the resistance?  lol I still need to empirically prove ohms law, I should do that today actually) and you will find the increase in current you're looking for... no?

Maybe if you ask the question again in a more detailed manner we will be able to help you out a little bit.

My question about increasing the frequency was in reference to controlling AC motors with a microcontroller... when googling around, I found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive and these things cost hundreds of dollars, but the fundamental thing they're manipulating is the frequency and Voltage applied to the load... right?  My microcontroller has the ability to change the frequency it is capable of outputting, it's just severely limited because of the extra work it does in order to be programmable in Javascript... the question I was asking is why wouldn't it be possible to connect my microcontroller to a second chip that was also capable of outputting 72MHtz (but didn't have the extra Javascript work) and completely overcome this limitation... those chips are about $5 each, and with relays or whatever else, why couldn't that then be just as good of a solution to controlling the frequency than this other thing that costs hundreds of dollars...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 10:04:48 pm by JacobEdward »
 

Online Simon

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #29 on: February 22, 2015, 10:10:48 pm »
JavaScript does not exactly sound like a microcontroller language. I don't know what JavaScript entails as I barely understand C myself however I'm pretty sure you could do some stuff in C. The other thing I think you are missing is that any microcontroller will produce a square wave output where as usually you are controlling a motor with a sine wave. What is usually done is to approximate the sine wave with a varying duty square wave so that the average voltage of the PWM output represents the average sine wave voltages that you would otherwise supply the motor. This is why your variable frequency drives are not cheap, they are not necessarily simple.

The other thing is if you are using the PWM capability of your microcontroller once this is set up through whichever language you choose it should run very efficiently as it is a separate hardware peripheral on the microcontroller chip so I'm not sure how the programming language is affecting its top frequency. A bloated programming language may mean that it takes you longer to alter the PWM duty but the frequency should be achievable.

An operational amplifier or carry out any amount of operations as the name suggests on an analogue signal. You can use it to multiply or divide a signal or add signals together. Obviously the operational amplifier needs a power supply, the input impedance of an operational amplifier is theoretically infinite in reality it is still so high that you won't have to worry about it if you are controlling it from a microcontroller. Operational amplifiers are not usually designed to provide high current output they are mainly voltage amplifiers although there are many power amplifier chips which are essentially powerful operational amplifiers. But having said that they may not have the current capability you are looking for.

If you are looking to use a H bridge then you probably don't need an operational amplifier. You will need for MOSFETs to end channel and 2 P channel MOSFETs. You can also use for N channel ones but that will be complicating things at this stage. MOSFETs also have very high input impedance so they can easily be driven straight from a microcontroller. You will need to use on the low side (the N channel MOSFETs) logic level MOSFETs as these can be fully switched on with just 5 V as their threshold voltage will be in the region of 1 to 2 V. Each low side MOSFET can also be used it corresponding highside MOSFET although you don't get the fastest response by doing this but it's a simple circuit solution. You may need to use MOSFET driver ICs which will be able to switch the MOSFET correctly at high speed although as somebody else has said getting an actual H bridge chip may be easier and cheaper.
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #30 on: February 22, 2015, 10:49:05 pm »
JavaScript does not exactly sound like a microcontroller language.

Javascript is a turing complete language, what that means is there is nothing that any other language can do that Javascript cannot do (it just so happens that Javascript is directly built into the major browsers, can script a server, create offline apps, mobile apps, microcontrollers, etc.)

I don't know what JavaScript entails as I barely understand C myself however I'm pretty sure you could do some stuff in C.

The hassle of learning a whole new language when I already know a language is not worth the effort (especially if there are potential compensations for an increase in Htz).  Imagine deciding to learn Japanese or Hungarian because it might save you one or two (relatively insignificant compared to everything that needs to be done) extra steps in filing some business document... it would be different if you'd move to that part of the world, but if you're just going to be doing the same thing you would have been doing anyways... just go with the extra step

The other thing I think you are missing is that any microcontroller will produce a square wave output where as usually you are controlling a motor with a sine wave. What is usually done is to approximate the sine wave with a varying duty square wave so that the average voltage of the PWM output represents the average sine wave voltages that you would otherwise supply the motor. This is why your variable frequency drives are not cheap, they are not necessarily simple.

Wouldn't it just be easier to programmatically control when some other voltage source will turn on and off that would be producing the proper signal for the motor?  Either way, thanks for that tip, didn't realize there was this difference in wave forms...  Also, is this true for DC motors or is it just for AC motors being controlled by a digital device?  How is this approximation usually done?  Is that just code within the micro or are there components that interpret the correct variations?

The other thing is if you are using the PWM capability of your microcontroller once this is set up through whichever language you choose it should run very efficiently as it is a separate hardware peripheral on the microcontroller chip so I'm not sure how the programming language is affecting its top frequency. A bloated programming language may mean that it takes you longer to alter the PWM duty but the frequency should be achievable.

Changing the frequency isn't a problem, but it's definitely not capable of getting up to that 72Mhtz like it claims it can, which is why I keep asking about it being possible to control another chip that does nothing but create these incredibly high frequencies... is that possible?

An operational amplifier or carry out any amount of operations as the name suggests on an analogue signal. You can use it to multiply or divide a signal or add signals together. Obviously the operational amplifier needs a power supply, the input impedance of an operational amplifier is theoretically infinite in reality it is still so high that you won't have to worry about it if you are controlling it from a microcontroller. Operational amplifiers are not usually designed to provide high current output they are mainly voltage amplifiers although there are many power amplifier chips which are essentially powerful operational amplifiers. But having said that they may not have the current capability you are looking for.

I'm not too familiar with impedence so I'll be reading that wikipedia tonight, but I know you said they're not suppose to provide current, but aren't you indirectly providing current when you provide Voltage... doesn't one come from the other through ohm's law?

If you are looking to use a H bridge then you probably don't need an operational amplifier. You will need for MOSFETs to end channel and 2 P channel MOSFETs.

I have a bunch of bipolar transistors in the mail and according to their datasheet, they're able to

Collector–Emitter Voltage VCEO 40 Vdc
Collector–Base Voltage VCBO 60 Vdc
Emitter–Base Voltage VEBO 6.0 Vdc

which seems like it would be more than enough for any DC motor I'm going to get my hands on any time soon, right?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2015, 10:57:47 pm by JacobEdward »
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #31 on: February 22, 2015, 10:56:55 pm »
Something I'm not too clear on that hopefully you could explain is why voltage regulators are preferable to voltage dividers in conjunction with capacitors...  what is a voltage regulator made of or is it just an IC of more basic components?  I get the idea of using a voltage regulator in AC to DC conversions, but is there another necessary use case?
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #32 on: February 22, 2015, 11:01:20 pm »
I would have thought a Op Amp would be the solution to a mircocontroller not being able to supply enough Voltage or Current and use transistors to create the H-bridge...

While looking into motors, it seems that I'll need more flexibility with frequency than what my microcontroller can give, is there an easy solution to this?  The core chip on my microcontroller is about $5 and without any of the special code it can output 72 MHtz (it can barely give 5KHtz as it is right now) so I'm not entirely sure why I would need to spend hundreds of dollars on a variable frequency drive to control AC motors...
Because 72MHz is the clock frequency which will be much higher than the maximum PWM frequency the MCU can generate from one of its I/O pins.

A variable speed motor drive does a lot. It converts the mains voltage to a stabilised DC bus, provides isolation between the AC side and control and has power factor correction. It will have many other components as well as the MCU: MOSFETs/IGBTs, opt-isolators, op-amps, huge electrolytic capacitors, inductors, radio interference filtering. A good variable frequency drive will also have to meet various standards for everything from electrical safety to efficiency.
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #33 on: February 22, 2015, 11:07:45 pm »
A variable speed motor drive does a lot. It converts the mains voltage to a stabilised DC bus, provides isolation between the AC side and control and has power factor correction. It will have many other components as well as the MCU: MOSFETs/IGBTs, opt-isolators, op-amps, huge electrolytic capacitors, inductors, radio interference filtering. A good variable frequency drive will also have to meet various standards for everything from electrical safety to efficiency.

I would like to build my own variable frequency drive (it seems like a good device to learn fundamental electronics with), do you know any really good tutorials out there with an explicit BOM I can use?
 

Offline rolycat

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2015, 12:23:35 am »
A variable speed motor drive does a lot. It converts the mains voltage to a stabilised DC bus, provides isolation between the AC side and control and has power factor correction. It will have many other components as well as the MCU: MOSFETs/IGBTs, opt-isolators, op-amps, huge electrolytic capacitors, inductors, radio interference filtering. A good variable frequency drive will also have to meet various standards for everything from electrical safety to efficiency.

I would like to build my own variable frequency drive (it seems like a good device to learn fundamental electronics with), do you know any really good tutorials out there with an explicit BOM I can use?

VFDs are primarily designed to drive powerful AC induction motors which operate at mains voltages and often require three-phase supplies. As such, they aren't a good choice for a beginner in electronics.

If you are interested in controlling motors electronically, start with a low voltage DC motor and experiment with PWM speed control.

Googling terms like "DC motor control tutorial" or "Arduino DC motor control" should give lots of suitable examples.

 

Offline WattsUp

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2015, 07:41:55 am »
Something I'm not too clear on that hopefully you could explain is why voltage regulators are preferable to voltage dividers in conjunction with capacitors...  what is a voltage regulator made of or is it just an IC of more basic components?  I get the idea of using a voltage regulator in AC to DC conversions, but is there another necessary use case?
I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but a voltage divider should NOT be used to create a power supply rail. They are intended for very low signal currents. A voltage regulator is basically just a zener reference diode, with an emitter follower and some overheat protection (You can make your own). For AC to DC conversion, you will need a transformer to lower the voltage, and a bridge rectifier and some big ass capacitors to smooth out the supply under load. Capacitors are used with voltage regulators in a similar way, to prevent voltage peaks and dips by storing and releasing energy when it is needed. Hopefully that answered your query.
Ben
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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2015, 07:47:29 am »
The problem seems to be that our OP has no concept of current (AMPS !!!!) until he gets this he will be trying to run loads off signal pins.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2015, 04:37:39 pm »
JavaScript does not exactly sound like a microcontroller language.

Javascript is a turing complete language, what that means is there is nothing that any other language can do that Javascript cannot do (it just so happens that Javascript is directly built into the major browsers, can script a server, create offline apps, mobile apps, microcontrollers, etc.)
Javascript is also an interpreted language which makes it very slow compared to a compiled language such as C so itsn't suitable for most MCUs.

It's possible to run Javascript on an MCU but it's not cheap or efficient.
https://tessel.io/

 

Offline iamdarkyoshi

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2015, 06:12:05 pm »
If you want a good play with inductors, build a joule thief and then try to modify it yourself to operate a flourescent tube instead of an LED. it can be done, but tounge angle is important  :-/O
 

Offline iamdarkyoshi

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #39 on: February 23, 2015, 06:17:41 pm »
A variable speed motor drive does a lot. It converts the mains voltage to a stabilised DC bus, provides isolation between the AC side and control and has power factor correction. It will have many other components as well as the MCU: MOSFETs/IGBTs, opt-isolators, op-amps, huge electrolytic capacitors, inductors, radio interference filtering. A good variable frequency drive will also have to meet various standards for everything from electrical safety to efficiency.

I would like to build my own variable frequency drive (it seems like a good device to learn fundamental electronics with), do you know any really good tutorials out there with an explicit BOM I can use?

This was made by me completely out of bordem in my digital electronics class, and could potentially drive a HDD motor. Good ol' 555 timer (of course) and a couple 74ls74's made this and could potentially be cascaded for 4 or more outputs.
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #40 on: February 24, 2015, 08:02:11 pm »
If you want to read about components, the fist two volumes of "Encyclopedia of Electronic Components" by Charles Platt are easy reads.

I've got the book in front of me but it doesn't actually list any cheap part numbers I can find on ebay to start experimenting with... I'm trying to prove these concepts empirically instead of just reading them in a book so if you know anything that lists off a bunch of cheap part numbers for encoders, inductors, transistors, etc. that would be great.
 

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2015, 08:05:57 pm »
Your going about it the wrong way, there are numerous factors that make up an inductor: inductance, max current, self resonant frequency, resistance and I'm sure more, you can't just buy a few parts and expect to plug them into a circuit, design your circuit, work out what inductor you need and then get it.
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2015, 08:06:41 pm »
JavaScript does not exactly sound like a microcontroller language.

Javascript is a turing complete language, what that means is there is nothing that any other language can do that Javascript cannot do (it just so happens that Javascript is directly built into the major browsers, can script a server, create offline apps, mobile apps, microcontrollers, etc.)
Javascript is also an interpreted language which makes it very slow compared to a compiled language such as C so itsn't suitable for most MCUs.

It's possible to run Javascript on an MCU but it's not cheap or efficient.
https://tessel.io/

I've found a much cheaper microcontroller that is programmable in Javascript... espruino.com and it's completely open source, so presumably I could eventually buy a $5 development board and load espruino on it (though I'm definitely going to be supporting espruino.com since I think it's an amazing company).

Btw, I've been asking this over and over again and still haven't gotten a response... is it possible to just buy another ARM chip and have one microcontroller use it to generate 50MHtz signals (given the second ARM chip wont have anything else assigned to it other than generating these higher frequencies)?
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2015, 08:07:48 pm »
Your going about it the wrong way, there are numerous factors that make up an inductor: inductance, max current, self resonant frequency, resistance and I'm sure more, you can't just buy a few parts and expect to plug them into a circuit, design your circuit, work out what inductor you need and then get it.

I'm sure, but I'm still going to verify it empirically before I start memorizing crap out of a book... now if you know of a cheap part I can use to experiment with, that would be great.
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2015, 08:09:15 pm »
If you want a good play with inductors, build a joule thief and then try to modify it yourself to operate a flourescent tube instead of an LED. it can be done, but tounge angle is important  :-/O

Do you know of a really good tutorial on Joule thief's for beginners?  Something that has a basic set of listed parts I can find cheaply and experiment with?
 

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2015, 08:11:16 pm »
Your going about it the wrong way, there are numerous factors that make up an inductor: inductance, max current, self resonant frequency, resistance and I'm sure more, you can't just buy a few parts and expect to plug them into a circuit, design your circuit, work out what inductor you need and then get it.

I'm sure, but I'm still going to verify it empirically before I start memorizing crap out of a book... now if you know of a cheap part I can use to experiment with, that would be great.


Any part will do then, just grab something and experiment with it, say 100 uH.

We still don't know what signals your trying to produce, if you want 50MHz 50% duty then maybe but if your doing PWM then there is no straight answer. You insist on taking the easy route to program and that gets you no control over your hardware. You can use an 8MHz MCU to control a motor at 10'000 rpm........ you need to learn about the MCU hardware, MCU's are not computers, you can't relay on a virtually limitless processing resource.
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #46 on: February 24, 2015, 08:14:23 pm »
I'm not quite sure what you are asking, but a voltage divider should NOT be used to create a power supply rail. They are intended for very low signal currents. A voltage regulator is basically just a zener reference diode, with an emitter follower and some overheat protection (You can make your own). For AC to DC conversion, you will need a transformer to lower the voltage, and a bridge rectifier and some big ass capacitors to smooth out the supply under load. Capacitors are used with voltage regulators in a similar way, to prevent voltage peaks and dips by storing and releasing energy when it is needed. Hopefully that answered your query.

That does help, thanks!  Why do they call it a power supply "rail"?

I've been curious though, how do diodes work?  How is there a substance that can allow electricity to flow in one direction but not the other... I get the idea of a capacitor (I think), but for diodes it's not like these currents are on separate lines... I've read the wikipedia and it didn't really explain how that works. 
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #47 on: February 24, 2015, 08:19:19 pm »
Your going about it the wrong way, there are numerous factors that make up an inductor: inductance, max current, self resonant frequency, resistance and I'm sure more, you can't just buy a few parts and expect to plug them into a circuit, design your circuit, work out what inductor you need and then get it.

I'm sure, but I'm still going to verify it empirically before I start memorizing crap out of a book... now if you know of a cheap part I can use to experiment with, that would be great.


Any part will do then, just grab something and experiment with it, say 100 uH.

We still don't know what signals your trying to produce, if you want 50MHz 50% duty then maybe but if your doing PWM then there is no straight answer. You insist on taking the easy route to program and that gets you no control over your hardware. You can use an 8MHz MCU to control a motor at 10'000 rpm........ you need to learn about the MCU hardware, MCU's are not computers, you can't relay on a virtually limitless processing resource.

Cheap part number I can find on ebay?
 

Offline JacobEdwardTopic starter

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #48 on: February 24, 2015, 08:24:49 pm »
Your going about it the wrong way, there are numerous factors that make up an inductor: inductance, max current, self resonant frequency, resistance and I'm sure more, you can't just buy a few parts and expect to plug them into a circuit, design your circuit, work out what inductor you need and then get it.

I'm sure, but I'm still going to verify it empirically before I start memorizing crap out of a book... now if you know of a cheap part I can use to experiment with, that would be great.


Any part will do then, just grab something and experiment with it, say 100 uH.

We still don't know what signals your trying to produce, if you want 50MHz 50% duty then maybe but if your doing PWM then there is no straight answer. You insist on taking the easy route to program and that gets you no control over your hardware. You can use an 8MHz MCU to control a motor at 10'000 rpm........ you need to learn about the MCU hardware, MCU's are not computers, you can't relay on a virtually limitless processing resource.

Could you explain the difference between PWM and 50MHz with a 50% duty cycle?

It's definitely not the easy route to program, it's just I've already invested the time to learn a programming language and I'm not interested in learning another language when I already have a microcontroller that I know how to program... sorry if people don't like that it's possible to do this in languages other than C or assembly, but my microcontroller is fully capable of doing anything any other microcontroller is capable of doing apart from generating a 50Htz signal... which is why I'm asking this question, but after about 5 times I still haven't got a straight forward response...
 

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Re: Beginner Components?
« Reply #49 on: February 24, 2015, 08:53:47 pm »
It's definitely not the easy route to program, it's just I've already invested the time to learn a programming language and I'm not interested in learning another language when I already have a microcontroller that I know how to program... sorry if people don't like that it's possible to do this in languages other than C or assembly, but my microcontroller is fully capable of doing anything any other microcontroller is capable of doing apart from generating a 50Htz signal... which is why I'm asking this question, but after about 5 times I still haven't got a straight forward response...

Well i'm sorry but unless you do things right they won't work! why the hell are you trying something as complicated as a variable frequency drive when you don't have micro-controller specific programming skills and you don't even know how a diode works even after reading about it. I'm sorry but we can't make you learn and there is no secret. Unless your going to do things properly and in some order then I'm sorry but there is nothing we can do.

you claim to know all about programming but don't understand the concept of PWM which is at the basis of controlling real world devices like motors with a digital microcontroller, so I suggest you stop thinking you can do anything in java and learn to program properly in C like everyone else does at this level of development and learn basic circuitry techniques. You seem to be blissfully unware of just how much you don't know (not that I'm an expert either) and yet there is no way to explain anything to you. For gods sake get the simplest beginner book and read it!

 


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