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Beginner Oscilloscope Best Approach to Purchase Now or Later?
Posted by Lowkus on 15 May, 2021 20:13 -
I am a beginner without an oscilloscope, and I know I need to get an oscilloscope eventually but for the next six to eight months I won't have time to practice electronics. Should I wait to buy an oscilloscope until months later, figuring prices and options will be better by then? Or should I expect prices will be the same, so just buy one right away in case I get an impulse to muck about with it some evening?
My current plan is to get one of these scopes, but is there a better option I should be looking at? I want four channels minimum, but beyond that I don't have a lot of experience to know what I'm going to need. Most of the projects I'm thinking about will involve either audio processing or robotics.
-Siglent SDS2104X Plus
-Siglent SDS1204X-E
-Something else? -
I have just got my first oscilloscope. My budget was limited ( about £50) and I don't need to go for anything too fancy. I got a Hameg 303-6 and am very pleased with it.
I just googled Siglent SDS2104X Plus and it looks like your budget is far bigger than mine
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When you say "robotics" that covers a massive area. Depending upon what you mean a scope with isolated inputs might be advised. If you are starting out though I'm hoping you don't jump into high voltage and complicated systems, so maybe not a concern.
As for being a beginner you don't need a scope to start with but it quickly can become a very useful tool in the learning process. In some cases you might learn more with a device like "Analog Discovery", for an initial low cost investment. Well it was low cost at one time. In any event 8 months is a long time, what is available on the market could change and frankly you will have more knowledge about what fits your needs best. So I would suggest holding off.
On the flip side we are likely to go into an era of extremely high inflation in the USA. This due to the idiots in Washington, for the guy trying to make a living it is going to suck. So one could argue that investing know will save you money.I am a beginner without an oscilloscope, and I know I need to get an oscilloscope eventually but for the next six to eight months I won't have time to practice electronics. Should I wait to buy an oscilloscope until months later, figuring prices and options will be better by then? Or should I expect prices will be the same, so just buy one right away in case I get an impulse to muck about with it some evening?
I would not have an expectations at all. I've been looking at a number of products for various projects I have around the house and the price increases are staggering in the last few months. Literally everything has gone up in price significantly. Will it cool off in 8 months who knows. I just don't want to say one way or the other, long term, but right now I'm a bit shocked.QuoteMy current plan is to get one of these scopes, but is there a better option I should be looking at? I want four channels minimum, but beyond that I don't have a lot of experience to know what I'm going to need.
That right there is the best reason to hold off. Buying a scope is a big investment and frankly you want to buy something that is a good fit. It isn't like buying a DMM where no matter what you buy you will find yourself wanting / needing another. Don't even start to shop until you have an idea about what you need and why.QuoteMost of the projects I'm thinking about will involve either audio processing or robotics.
-Siglent SDS2104X Plus
-Siglent SDS1204X-E
-Something else?
There are a lot of scopes on the market and frankly a lot of used ones. I'd hold off and when you have a better idea of the what and whys, I'd canvass the market then.
Siglent isn't the only brand name, though they do have a good rep for a Chinese scope. -
I have just got my first oscilloscope. My budget was limited ( about £50) and I don't need to go for anything too fancy. I got a Hameg 303-6 and am very pleased with it.
I just googled Siglent SDS2104X Plus and it looks like your budget is far bigger than mine
This is actually a smart move. From my perspective there is no reason to waste money on a new highish end scope when you can learn perfectly well with a used scope. -
Oh man, the inflation issue is one I wasn't thinking about for the oscilloscope market, but that totally makes sense. I've had my money sitting in a savings account for ten years, expecting a catastrophic market collapse so I didn't want my money in the market. I had no idea the Fed was going to throw the working class under the bus so they could save the stock market gamblers. Capitalism for the poor, socialism for the rich.
I think I'll buy the 2104x Plus now to hedge against price rises in the future; at best I doubt the scope will drop in price by next year, and the newer scopes will be much more expensive to sneak in their adjustment for the inflation. I know the scope I'm looking at is more than what a beginner would normally start with but I've been programming computers for 30 years, gotta give myself a gift every now and then to offset the pain of wrecking my body at a computer for so long. -
A couple years ago I bought a Siglent 1104x-e as my first digital bench scope. I had a couple old Tek analogs and an Analog Discovery (which I love and still use regularly). At the time I felt the 1104 was the best bang for the buck, and it still may be. I am a hobbyist and it is likely way more scope than I will ever need, but... I like my toys and would love to have the larger touch screen of the 1204. At another $900 that’s an expensive luxury. Except for a bit more horsepower I am not sure what else the 1204 would give me and likely nothing I will ever use. The only thing I would add is as long as spending the extra $900 won’t prevent you from buying other gear, like a good DMM, a decent function generator and some good power supplies, a good solder station, etc. etc., then go ahead. Those other pieces of gear, and then some, will be required for you to get good use of your spiffy scope, or any scope for that matter.
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I've been saving money to buy a house, I'll dip into that fund to buy the extra test gear. It's not like I'm going to buy a home anytime soon anyway, home prices are inflated so much now.
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The 2104X+ is a lot of scope for the money after hacking, so I certainly won't discourage you from getting one, but depending on your budget, you might be better served by getting the 1104X-E and an SDG2042X sig-gen, and of course hacking both of them. OTOH, the 2104X+ looks pretty good and I'm considering the upgrade myself. Either way, having them on hand will probably lead to you taking them out and using them and learning stuff in the process.
I've no idea whether inflation is going to be a bigger factor then competition--the low/mid scope market is extremely competitive--but I doubt the prices will be dropping anytime soon so it's safe to buy now. There's a discount at TEquipment for EEVblog members. -
Is there a thread I should visit to get the discount code, or should I ask Sales@TEquipment.NET?
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Quote
My current plan is to get one of these scopes, but is there a better option I should be looking at? I want four channels minimum, but beyond that I don't have a lot of experience to know what I'm going to need. Most of the projects I'm thinking about will involve either audio processing or robotics.
For audio circuits you don't need a very high bandwidth scope, and robotics is primarily digital these days.
Since you have the budget I'd have a good look at the Analog Discovery 2. At only $400 it packs a lot of PC-controlled lab instruments into a compact form factor:
- dual channel 30 MHz oscilloscope
- dual channel arbitrary analog waveform generator
- bipolar programmable power supplies
- GPIO pins
- digital pattern generator (16 channels)
- logical analyzer (16 channels)
The WaveForms program gives you access to all of these capabilities, but you can also write your own programs (like in Python or C) to implement your own applications.
The integrated bipolar power supplies, waveform generators and scope, for instance, is perfect for testing op-amp circuits.
The AD2 reference manual:
https://reference.digilentinc.com/_media/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/ad2_rm.pdf
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Picked up a Rigol DS1054Z last year and it's been nothing but wonderful.
It's really helped to increase my comprehension for some topics that were gray areas for me.
4 channels, decent ergonomics and pretty good menus system.
It is however a 4 or 5 years old design now. So there are probably newer models which beat it.
That said it has to be one of the most written about scopes on EEVblog.
That's the reason I went with it myself over several other scopes with similar features and price.
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Is there a thread I should visit to get the discount code, or should I ask Sales@TEquipment.NET?
Or you can also get 6% from Saelig:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/equipment-discounts-from-saelig/ -
1. (Almost) Any functioning oscilloscope is better than no oscilloscope at all.
2. A single channel scope is almost useless unless you have a particular special purpose application. For example I use my antique Tek RM503 to frighten children and, in x-y mode, to display a ScopeClock face or make Lissajous figures.
3. Two channels good, three channels better, four channels best. But does every channel need its own set of controls? That third or fourth channel might not get used very much, so why do you need its control knobs always present, taking up panel space? But when you need the fourth channel... you need it, so using a shared set of controls is tolerable.
4. Unless you do heavy digital data decoding or VHF RF work you probably do not "actually" need a fancy (read expensive) scope with high bandwidth or hardware data decoding features.
Once I got a good unit of the Rigol DS1054Z and now that the software bugs are shaken out, I still find it completely adequate for my hobby and pseudopro use cases. For example right now (and continuously for the past 3 or 4 days) I am using it, all 4 channels, in roll mode, to monitor the control voltages of a new modular synthesizer that I am putting together, in an effort to try to understand where all the racket is coming from and going to. I like this effect so much that the Rigol just may become a permanent part of the music synthesizer rig.
The Point: You may be able to save a bunch of money by buying a used scope that actually meets your present and some future needs, rather than breaking the bank by buying a new and feature-packed scope that never gets its capabilities stretched.
Just my 4.5 cents worth.
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Since you have the budget I'd have a good look at the Analog Discovery 2. At only $400 it packs a lot of PC-controlled lab instruments into a compact form factor:
- dual channel 30 MHz oscilloscope
- dual channel arbitrary analog waveform generator
- bipolar programmable power supplies
- GPIO pins
- digital pattern generator (16 channels)
- logical analyzer (16 channels)
The WaveForms program gives you access to all of these capabilities, but you can also write your own programs (like in Python or C) to implement your own applications.
The integrated bipolar power supplies, waveform generators and scope, for instance, is perfect for testing op-amp circuits.
The AD2 reference manual:
https://reference.digilentinc.com/_media/reference/instrumentation/analog-discovery-2/ad2_rm.pdf
Probably the most important tool on my bench. I love this thing! It replaces an entire bench worth of equipment and I can carry it in a backpack along with a laptop.
Here's a cool use case: You're doing some kind of input/output on a Raspberry Pi running Python or C++ code. You run the Waveforms software on the same Pi and you can use the Pi to diagnose itself. Somehow, this seems cool - maybe it's just me.
I don't like the new and improved price ($399) compared to the old price ($279) but I already have one so it doesn't really matter. It's those university kids - buying up all the AD2s for their at-home lab work. At long last, the AD2 is back in stock but it has been sold out since Covid first appeared.
For somebody wanting to actually learn electronics, I would absolutely recommend the AD2 over a bench full of gear. I can spend an entire day playing with a 10k resistor and a 0.1 ufd capacitor looking at a low pass filter in both the frequency and time domain. Throw in a 27" monitor and a Color LaserJet and things look pretty good.
Oh, and let me know when your scope can do a Bode' Plot as nice as the attached.
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I don't think I'd replace a full oscilloscope with a PC scope, but is the AD2 adequate as a replacement for a dedicated function gen? Has Dave done a video on the AD2 and if so was the video recent enough to give a proper impression of the AD2 as it currently exists? If they've raised the price to $400 I'm assuming there must be some increased reliability or functionality in the product to justify the price rise, or is it higher because of parts scarcity, or maybe an early victim to the inflation creep that's coming?
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It always surprises me how many people are new to the hobby and looking to spend a small fortune on lab gear.
If you don't need a scope today, wait and keep an eye on ebay/facebook marketplace/ or whatever your local classified website is. You'll probably bag a scope for not much money.
If you find you need something better you can flip it for what you paid for it. If you find you don't use it you're not out by much! If you blow it up doing something silly you're also not out by much.
If you've got an itch you need to scratch buy one of those scope kits on ebay, use it to practice your soldering and stick it in your toolbag if you need to do some repairs out of the lab. They're not great, but they're still good for looking at pulse timing or audio stuff. A battery powered scope can be handy for other stuff too...
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Some years ago as a first scope I bought an old Tek 475 in perfect working shape for about $100. I figured it was a scope with all the typical controls and good for learning the basics of operation. Turns out I’ve never needed to upgrade. Caveat is that I’m only doing analog circuits, audio/music stuff, so my needs are very limited. But I can still recommend starting with a simple, basic scope and planning to outgrow it later if you need to. The actual scope you have on your bench is always more useful than the theoretical scope you might get in several months
and if you buy used you can usually resell later for about the same amount.
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I don't think I'd replace a full oscilloscope with a PC scope, but is the AD2 adequate as a replacement for a dedicated function gen?
Yes, the AD2 has 2 channels of 14 bit 100 MS/s 30 MHz arbitrary waveform generators. There are quite a few built-in waveforms and the two channels can be combined to form a sweep generator.
You can download the Waveforms software and play around with the Demo device. There's a lot of capability in waveform generation.Quote
Has Dave done a video on the AD2 and if so was the video recent enough to give a proper impression of the AD2 as it currently exists?
Dave did a video on the original AD but AFAIK the only major change is with the power supply outputs and this involves the capability of increasing the current by feeding the AD2 from a wall wart.
I'm not aware of a video detailing the AD2 but there are MANY on the Internet.Quote
If they've raised the price to $400 I'm assuming there must be some increased reliability or functionality in the product to justify the price rise, or is it higher because of parts scarcity, or maybe an early victim to the inflation creep that's coming?
I have attributed it to opportunistic pricing. With Covid, universities couldn't have in-person lab classes so there was massive demand for labs-at-home and you couldn't get an AD2 even if you wanted one. That situation has eased and there are a couple of thousand in stock at Digilent.
Other items haven't increased in price so I am definitely leaning toward opportunistic pricing. And, when NI took over Digilent, they had competing products. It wouldn't do for the Digilent products to supplant the NI products.
I have the original AD and the AD2 (plus the Digital Discovery) and I like them a lot. I spend some time going over fundamentals and there is nothing on the market that does a better job than the AD2. I have the new Transistor Curve Tracer attachment along with the Impedance attachment (plus the BNC adapter, of course) and these optional gadgets do a very nice job.
The curve tracer output is for a 2N4401 transistor and IIRC, the impedance plot is of a 0.1 ufd ceramic capacitor.
The Breadboard Breakout and Breadboard Adapter are pretty handy gadgets. It doesn't show it but the Breadboard Adapter comes with a matching Breadboard. Very handy for small learning projects.
https://store.digilentinc.com/test-and-measurement-equipment/adapters-and-canvases/
When the AD2 was just $279, I had no problem recommending it in every oscilloscope thread. Today, I'm a little more subdued. $399 for a $279 gadget is ridiculous.
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I like the idea of the AD2, and if I could afford one I'd probably buy one. But... you need a laptop or other PC to operate it, yes? So I see it more as an accessory _in addition to_ an actual bench digital oscilloscope. After all, one can always download the data from a digital scope to a PC and calculate Bode plots and such, can't one? (I really don't know; I do know you can do FFT on downloaded data so I am assuming the rest is possible too.)
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In my world, everything is digital. I don't really do much with analog and never have.
So, I will always have a computer on my desk or in a backpack. Or, the ultimate case, running Waveforms on the Raspberry Pi I am writing code for. Dual monitors would be helpful here...
I do like analog computing and I do mess around with that. There will always need to be some scheme for displaying the outputs. Typically, this was done with a chart plotter because things don't happen all that fast on an analog computer. A scope with decent X-Y capability is workable as long as it has single shot mode and some method for downloading the image. An AD2 with a 27" monitor and a Color Laserjet is even better. It isn't always necessary to have X-Y but every scope I have ever seen has this capability. Actually, single shot mode isn't always required. It's just easier...
It's pretty easy to use something like MATLAB or Octave to read a file of voltage samples and produce an FFT.
Attached is an FFT project that runs in both MATLAB and Octave. Octave is a free MATLAB work-alike.
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I've been saving money to buy a house, I'll dip into that fund to buy the extra test gear. It's not like I'm going to buy a home anytime soon anyway, home prices are inflated so much now.
Careful with that. A house is an investment, an oscilloscope is a depreciating asset, especially if you are not using it to earn a living. When I bought my house it was a very tight squeeze and I made a lot of sacrifices, it completely cleaned me out at the time and it seemed like a crazy amount of money to spend. In retrospect it was the smartest thing I ever did and even during the big housing crash of 2008 the value never dippped down to what I paid for it. At the time a lot of people told me I was crazy since renting was so much cheaper but today I'm watching those people struggle as their rent is more than my mortgage which is just a few years from being paid off. Housing does tend to have bubbles, but over the long term it has always gone up.
As far as oscilloscopes, my advice would be wait until you need one. I don't think entry level scopes are going to get hard to find and if serious inflation does happen you'll probably have more important things to do than play with your hobbies. -
I like the idea of the AD2, and if I could afford one I'd probably buy one. But... you need a laptop or other PC to operate it, yes? So I see it more as an accessory _in addition to_ an actual bench digital oscilloscope. After all, one can always download the data from a digital scope to a PC and calculate Bode plots and such, can't one? (I really don't know; I do know you can do FFT on downloaded data so I am assuming the rest is possible too.)
You do need some kind of PC, but who doesn't have a computer these days? What are you using to interact on this forum? It doesn't need to be a high end laptop, a cast-off freebie or inexpensive ebay find would do the job. -
I like the idea of the AD2, and if I could afford one I'd probably buy one. But... you need a laptop or other PC to operate it, yes? So I see it more as an accessory _in addition to_ an actual bench digital oscilloscope.
For a hobbyist's first scope I think the 30 MHz bandwidth is perfectly adequate. Seeing tear downs of and hearing the professionals talk about the latest and greatest pieces of test equipment is interesting and educational, but I think it leaves the impression in beginners that you need that kind of high-performance equipment to do anything. Perhaps more videos showing what you can accomplish with lower-end equipment would be a good idea.QuoteAfter all, one can always download the data from a digital scope to a PC and calculate Bode plots and such, can't one? (I really don't know; I do know you can do FFT on downloaded data so I am assuming the rest is possible too.)
Being able to easily coordinate the activities of the waveform generator, power supplies, scope, digital I/O's, etc. is the main benefit here. A Bode plot will require configuring your function gen and taking a scope capture several times -- something you'll want to automate.
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For a hobbyist's first scope I think the 30 MHz bandwidth is perfectly adequate. Seeing tear downs of and hearing the professionals talk about the latest and greatest pieces of test equipment is interesting and educational, but I think it leaves the impression in beginners that you need that kind of high-performance equipment to do anything. Perhaps more videos showing what you can accomplish with lower-end equipment would be a good idea.
Back in the day, people managed to design and debug all sorts of cool stuff with a 15MHz analog CRO. When I was a teenager I would have traded my soul for something like the Chinese 100MHz DSOs you can get today for a few hundred bucks. At that time 100MHz bandwidth would have been extravagant. Sometimes there is no substitute for bandwidth, but the average hobbyist doesn't truly need anything fancy most of the time. You can learn just as much working with lower frequencies.