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This is getting absurd.
What should I do with my Simpson 260s? Crush them under the tires of my battery car?
And my old Heathkit V-O-M that I built decades ago? Same thing? Clearly no listing or rating on a kit!
What if my great-great-great-grandson happens to inherit them?
The first 260 I picked up off my shelf just now has no UL Listing, no CAT rating and uses a glass fuse. Horrors! Yet I know for a fact that these are used in nuclear power plants because mine came from a plant operator's training center.
Furthermore, the 260 is still the tool of choice for electrical work in substations and related switchgear. Until I retired 13 years ago, every service tech I knew had a 260, and a van full of other test gear. They may have also had something from the Fluke lineup but the 260 was ubiquitous. Note that most switchgear will have a potential transformer stepping the 12kV (or whatever) down to 120V for instrumentation. Regardless of scaling, the volt meter movements were usually rated for 120V. The current instrumentation is usually 0-5A.
And its track record and history show it to be a safe a reliable meter with many things to recommend it. How would it be a problem from what I said in the OP for a beginner to use one?As I posted earlier, it is possible to mess up mightily with any kind of test gear. So THINK!
"How is what I'm about to do going to hurt me?" "How am I going to prevent that?"
And as I have asked many times, where does the beginner draw on his experience to know what even to think about? BEGINNER, without experience to know even what questions to ask sometimes. -
The matter of safety is not only the safety of the user.
And this is also exactly why there is nothing wrong with discussions.
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There are more than just one side to recommending equipment, stop fixating on safety or not safety. It is important but consider the whole picture.
Because that is a very good way (in my opinion) how people can learn and put things in perspective.
In the end pretty much everyone is a little bit right and a little bit wrong.
It all depends on the context, or in other words, use your brains and recognize the situation.
That is not only true for "cheap"* equipment, but also very decent professional tools.
* I know a lot of people still think this, but price is definitely not always proportional to the performance.
There are expensive (sometimes well known) brands that produce crap and there are cheap brands that outperform everything else. -
And this is also exactly why there is nothing wrong with discussions.
Because that is a very good way (in my opinion) how people can learn and put things in perspective.
Discussion is great, that is why we are here. That is not the problem. The problem is the great debate starts again, almost without fail, in a post from a beginner wanting to know what to buy. Look at this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/first-time-gear/
What a mess and what a total waste of time for the OP. That thread has turned into a giant pissing contest and I believe we scared him away. Debate in places where the debate is welcomed, like this thread. We should not start a pissing contest every time a beginner asks a simple question. -
There is also the aspect of protection of investment. Good luck with the DM830 ebay $5 meter if you accidentally connect the leads to a car battery with the leads still in the unfused Amp jacks. Oh well, its just $5 and maybe a small fire in your car. What about when it reads 5V instead of the 15V that are really there because of a crappy range selector and you connect that 15V to your carefully hand crafted circuit and yu kill your circuit/DUT?
For the bad DMM scenario it is always better to have two (or three) DMMs rather than a single one. Even a Fluke may lose its calibration (rare - but can happen). Many of us have more than 3. I have 4 which is not much on these forums.
And Yes - the burnt fuse (or DMM) is annoying. And yet it seems like even when the beginner blows the HRC fuse they replace it with wire (judging by how many here buy a used DMM and find the HRC fuse replaced by a wire). So a careless beginner buying an expensive multimeter may be protected once. Many of us here (me included) have a stash of HRC fuses for all of our devices we purchased at reputable sources.
There is a circular logic here that if the beginners understand the risk they can use low grade equipment - whereas if they don't - they can use expensive equipment once...
BTW - even though the Gossen energy multimeter is very expensive and shutters the inputs - it isn't really for beginners. To measure energy you have to connect both current and voltage. Wiring it incorrectly will blow one of the two fuses. So I guess not every expensive DMM is good for beginners
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Let me propose that a better answer would be to ask what they are going to do with the equipment:
Work on power amps? Maybe get a THD meter and a variac and a nice hobby DMM and a scope (maybe).
Want to work on SMPS? A good DMM (not Cat 3), a scope with isolated channels or a regular scope with HV differential probes, and a load. Maybe (later on) a cheap LCR meter. etc.
Want to work Arduino? Cheap power supply and a cheap DMM (or two). A breadboard and maybe (later on) a scope.
RF? Spectrum analyzer or explorer, power meter, counter, etc...
etc.
BTW - if the answer is "I own a condominium and want to do all the electric work on it" the answer should be "Cat iii but we can't help you - you need a qualified electrician that won't ask silly questions online".
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I agree, that's why there are moderators in normal meetings, to keep everyone on track.And this is also exactly why there is nothing wrong with discussions.
Because that is a very good way (in my opinion) how people can learn and put things in perspective.
Discussion is great, that is why we are here. That is not the problem. The problem is the great debate starts again, almost without fail, in a post from a beginner wanting to know what to buy. Look at this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/first-time-gear/
What a mess and what a total waste of time for the OP. That thread has turned into a giant pissing contest and I believe we scared him away. Debate in places where the debate is welcomed, like this thread. We should not start a pissing contest every time a beginner asks a simple question.
This also has been a annoyance of me with many online forums.
The only task moderators have, is banning people or closing topics.
But not really 'moderate' the discussion.
Occasionally it's ok to side track, because it can give new ideas/insights.
But in other cases it can be very frustrating.
Similar as the other things as I mentioned before that people don't really help.
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And when an OP fails to engage/reply to the community, whose time is then being wasted ?And this is also exactly why there is nothing wrong with discussions.
Because that is a very good way (in my opinion) how people can learn and put things in perspective.
Discussion is great, that is why we are here. That is not the problem. The problem is the great debate starts again, almost without fail, in a post from a beginner wanting to know what to buy. Look at this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/first-time-gear/
What a mess and what a total waste of time for the OP. That thread has turned into a giant pissing contest and I believe we scared him away. Debate in places where the debate is welcomed, like this thread. We should not start a pissing contest every time a beginner asks a simple question.
Yes there sometimes are unneeded contributions based on members individual experiences and they in some way can be looked upon as helpful OR worthless depending on your POV.
What little else I can add to this thread is the experience of those with considerable contact with buyers when they come looking for recommendations of best fit/bang for buck to suit their needs...and the skill level often required to extract what those needs exactly might be. This is not often clear on EEVblog (and real world) as often the OP has little knowledge of the intricacies of measurements and/or device/product selection.
Lightages, I don't know how much customer contact you had when you were distributing but I see more than enough contributed knowledge to know you know plenty about DMM's.
Those few of us distributors also on the forum can also be assumed to know a fair bit about our industry too and how our products might (or might not) suit a customers needs. To other sellers, as many might be aware, a sale is just another sale which doesn't do our reputations much good and gives the industry a poor reputation......one might expect that's a good reason why we see so many come to EEVblog for recommendations.
As long as I've been here the topic of this thread has applied and more so in recent times where the choice is much greater and membership has grown to where it is today.
Some might expect the current state of affairs to continue.
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Maybe another way to think of this, the whole picture, is imagine you have a daughter or son. You are buying them their first set of test equipment and they are somewhere around 11 yrs old. Are you going to buy them that $5 ebay meter, a handful of components, a power supply, a soldering iron, and let them do whatever they want?
Or do you buy them something they can't break easily, won't be unsafe should they decide to do something you haven't thought they might try, and give them some quick lessons and advice on how to be safe and learn?
Perhaps everyone should think that way.
"Daddy, I want to learn electronics. What do I do?"
"Daughter, here is $30, go to ebay and buy the cheapest things you can find. If you have any questions on what you need to do or buy, ask some random strangers on the internet. I am sure you will have a good experience." -
Maybe another way to think of this, the whole picture, is imagine you have a daughter or son. You are buying them their first set of test equipment and they are somewhere around 11 yrs old. Are you going to buy them that $5 ebay meter, a handful of components, a power supply, a soldering iron, and let them do whatever they want?
This might be relevant to modern parenting but hardly a good example of those that might take a interest in what their children might take an interest in. Yes there are exceptions, take Dave for example where his parents weren't so much interested in his hobby as more it kept him amused and out of trouble.
Or do you buy them something they can't break easily, won't be unsafe should they decide to do something you haven't thought they might try, and give them some quick lessons and advice on how to be safe and learn?
Perhaps everyone should think that way.
"Daddy, I want to learn electronics. What do I do?"
"Daughter, here is $30, go to ebay and buy the cheapest things you can find. If you have any questions on what you need to do or buy, ask some random strangers on the internet. I am sure you will have a good experience."
These days it's much different where son/daughter can find much of what they need to know on the net IF they are smart and take some effort, not two minutes.
The 'trick' is to deduce how much knowledge is behind the OP and if their hand needs holding to guide them with good sound advice. These skills are not always demonstrated here, instead we see a heap of personal experiences offered, rightly or wrongly. -
And as I have asked many times, where does the beginner draw on his experience to know what even to think about? BEGINNER, without experience to know even what questions to ask sometimes.
Why not just agree that only CAT IV 1000V UL Listed (or ETL) is acceptable. That ought to cover the bases. Make it a sticky or something.
I'm still researching the actual UL documents for some of the recommended meters. It should be possible to find out which meters are actually tested.
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Why not just agree that only CAT IV 1000V UL Listed (or ETL) is acceptable. That ought to cover the bases. Make it a sticky or something.
That would be overkill and unnecessary. The kind of meter to recommend as far as I am concerned would be something that is well built, has a CATIII 300V rating that can be confirmed, and functions well for electronics. There are many multimeters in the $50USD range that fit this requirement. If the beginner can't or doesn't want to spend that much, then they need to know that there are limitations to the design and construction that could cause them problems with safety or cost them money because of errors. Remember I am not focusing on only personal safety as a concern. There is such a thing as false economy.
The false economy concept goes along with the purchase of a soldering iron, a signal generator, oscilloscope, etc. Buying the cheapest thing first means usually buying something better immediately when you realize it was not up to the needs or quality you should have. That original money is now lost as junk or a lesson not needed if proper advice was followed in the first place.
A CATIV 1000V meter is needed where that knid of hazard is encountered, and that is not in the home by beginners. -
I would really like if beginners would respond to this thread and give us your opinions. We could help you better if we had feedback on how you perceive the answers you get. I know we have scared many beginners away already.
I want to help, not scare people away. How can we do a better job here to help? -
When somebody asks about luminous paint on clock hands, we don't throw Chernobyl at them...
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I loved the idea of this thread when I first read it a few days ago. Lightages brought up some great, potentially constructive points, but as others have noted, it has turned into yet another multimeter showdown.
I think we have convinced beginners that their choice of multimeter is a monumental decision (on par with who you chose to marry), when in reality, it has little bearing on your ability to become good at electronics. Everyone is opinionated about the equipment they own and have experience with, but perhaps we could try to de-emphasize choice of equipment and put more emphasis on helping people make cool stuff and actually learning electronics. Do I believe you should use a safe multimeter? Yes. But maybe we should try to keep our emotions out of it, as much as possible.
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but perhaps we could try to de-emphasize choice of equipment and put more emphasis on helping people make cool stuff and actually learning electronics. Do I believe you should use a safe multimeter? Yes. But maybe we should try to keep our emotions out of it, as much as possible.
I believe that's the key point here.
There is nothing wrong venting a short opinion about something, but it's something else to make a whole debate about it.
For beginners (and maybe for everyone) it's important to see the whole process.
Why are people in favor of something, why are people against something etc?
I always tell my interns/students/trainees that it's the most important thing if you want to be successful and be smarter than the rest.
Don't bash the things you don't agree on right off the bat, try to understand the other person first.
And sometimes just let it be. -
Hi, I know this is an old thread but it was very interesting to me as an absolute beginner. I'm interested in music and hifi and started to think I could buy old cd players, stereo amplifiers etc and repair them myself to get that vintage sound for good prices.
I started investigating what I needed and started watching youtube instruction videos from basics of electricity to very basis info on electronics. I seen I needed a multimeter and a soldering iron and some mini tools. I started looking on amazon etc and forums and noticed this site kept popping up as very good. I then became stuck with indecision about the soldering iron and total confusion and fear about the multi meter.
1. I'm from Ireland with very limited knowledge of electronics but would love to learn.
2. I am now fearful that I may electrocute myself using a multimeter if its not a safe one.
3. Is repairing hifi gear (not old vintage tube stuff) a very dangerous hobby?
4. I want to spend about 50 Euros on a meter maybe up to 100 Euros if I could get a safe one that wouldnt allow me to make a foolish beginners mistake if it had a warning light or beeped if im doing it wrong.
5. Do I need to replace the supplied leads with "safer" ones.
I just joined up so I hope you dont mind all the questions and the person starting this thread has it right (well for me anyway). Its so confusing, you get afraid that you will hurt yourself, the level of knowledge on here is amazing but over my head a good bit of the time. I have two kids so safety is my primary concern but I would love to be able to do small simple electronics with them in a safe environment.
Best regards from Dublin
Ray
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No need to apologise.
There are a lot of people here who understand exactly where you are coming from and are happy to help.
What you might need to prepare yourself for is that there ARE a lot of people from all around the world. You could find some strong opinions presented, a lot of useful suggestions and sometimes some things that might seem confusing or irrelevant. These things can happen because we have pretty much the widest range of experience I have ever seen, brought here by people with diverse cultural background and personality.
The following was taken from what another new starter wrote - so please bear with us.
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That lament is so true but I will hang in there!
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That's good. Now, to your key question - about safety.
Repairing Hifi gear is comparatively safe if they have a heavy transformer - be it the old-fashioned E-I core or toroidal - and you keep your distance from the mains when plugged in.
Anything with a switchmode supply is a little different as there is a bit more to steer clear of. You can tell these because the transformer is a lot smaller and there's extra circuitry around it - but they can introduce switching noise, so I would not expect you to come across them too much in decent hifi gear.
If you open something up and you're not sure, just post a photo and you will get some advice.
You are wise to be wary of meters, but as long as you stay away from the real cheapies, there are quite a few options. There is a thread about meters here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/multimeter-spreadsheet/ but I'm sure you will get some recommendations here... -
Hi, I know this is an old thread but it was very interesting to me as an absolute beginner. I'm interested in music and hifi and started to think I could buy old cd players, stereo amplifiers etc and repair them myself to get that vintage sound for good prices.
I started investigating what I needed and started watching youtube instruction videos from basics of electricity to very basis info on electronics. I seen I needed a multimeter and a soldering iron and some mini tools. I started looking on amazon etc and forums and noticed this site kept popping up as very good. I then became stuck with indecision about the soldering iron and total confusion and fear about the multi meter.
1. I'm from Ireland with very limited knowledge of electronics but would love to learn.
2. I am now fearful that I may electrocute myself using a multimeter if its not a safe one.
3. Is repairin hifi gear (not old vintage tube stuff) a very dangerous hobby?
4. I want to spend about 50 Euros on a meter maybe up to 100 Euros if I could get a safe one that wouldnt allow me to make a foolish beginners mistake if it had a warning light or beeped if im doing it wrong.
5. Do I need to replace the supplied leads with "safer" ones.
I just joined up so I hope you dont mind all the questions and the person starting this thread has it right (well for me anyway). Its so confusing, you get afraid that you will hurt yourself, the level of knowledge on here is amazing but over my head a good bit of the time. I have two kids so safety is my primary concern but I would love to be able to do small simple electronics with them in a safe environment.
Best regards from Dublin
Ray
I see you have iterated and re-iterated that you are from Irleand, not sure what the significance is for that, but there are novices from all over the world who ask similar questions here.
As for your list of concerns:
1. I'm from Ireland with very limited knowledge of electronics but would love to learn. Still don't think that being from Ireland changes this answer, but, there are threads on this forum that exhibit learning resources, just search around.
2. I am now fearful that I may electrocute myself using a multimeter if its not a safe one. Safe is a relative feature on meters, but I suggest sticking to the long established major brand names such as Fluke.
3. Is repairing hifi gear (not old vintage tube stuff) a very dangerous hobby? Everything can be dangerous when dealing with electrical devices, it is your knowledge that protects you (and your children). I recommend that you take the time to study.
4. I want to spend about 50 Euros on a meter maybe up to 100 Euros if I could get a safe one that wouldnt allow me to make a foolish beginners mistake if it had a warning light or beeped if im doing it wrong. Meters typically are not made the way you are describing, there aren't any meters that I know of that can prevent you from making a mistake. The best safety device is your knowledge of your meter and equipment, and that is obtained by reading and understanding the user manual.
5. Do I need to replace the supplied leads with "safer" ones. Without knowledge of your meter, I can't answer this, but, in general, if you buy a well known brand meter that has all the safety ear marks, the leads are as safe as you make them; i.e. use with in the recommended voltage/current ranges from the manual.
With that said, the point is that your most useful/safety tool in using equipment around electrical devices is your brain.
Hope this helps... -
Now my last piece of advice for the moment is this ....
If the responses here seem few and far between, it will probably be because it's an old thread on a subject related more to the "Beginner's Lament" than actually helping someone.
If so, then I suggest you create a new thread of your own, containing much of what you posted above - and use a title that makes it clear you are a beginner wanting to get started. Then get ready for some suggestions.
See how it goes here first. -
I see you have iterated and re-iterated that you are from Irleand, not sure what the significance is for that
? ? ? I only saw it mentioned once. -
I only mentioned I was from Ireland so people would know that we have 230 power.
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I only mentioned I was from Ireland so people would know that we have 230 power.
Ahh, okay, thanks for that clarification. However, I wouldn't have known that you were 230 volt system in Ireland, unless you stated that you were 230 volts. Your flag said Ireland, you stated you were from Ireland, yet didn't mention the voltage, and then you said regards from Dublin, which is in Ireland. Don't get me wrong, I like Ireland, it just seemed odd in context, but that's just me.
Welcome to the forum, and I hope that you take Brumby's advice and re-post the question in Beginner's section in order to get a broader selection of information/answers to your queries. My opinions are worth nothing.
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Sorry for any confusion. First post nerves!
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There is a simple way to solve this problem and it is used over on GlockTalk for several forums: Go Ask The Experts. In effect, only a very select cadre can respond to questions posed in those forums. Usually just one person. So, if you want to know about that particular topic, you will get a response only by an appointed 'expert'.
There are no divergent opinions. Only the gospel according to the appointed guru is presented. There simply are no other suggestions or opposing points of view. No disparity at all! Everyone lives in harmony...
https://www.glocktalk.com/forum/#go-ask-the-expert-forums.246