Beginners, don't run away, please!

[Lightages]

This happens so many times. Beginners come here asking questions and the thread devolves into dick waving, arguing, and attacks that have nothing to do with the original question.

Please accept my apologies for this. There are many passionate people here who want to share their knowledge. Sometimes this gets in the way of helping and your original concern might get buried in petty bickering between the "experts" who would rather sword fight  with other "experts".  Ignore the noise.

To the "experts". STFU. Remember this is the beginners forum, not the bitch and whine forum. You are here to help the beginners with some advice. It is not the time bitch and argue with everyone who doesn't agree with you. If you think that the time for you to exercise your superiority over others is to debate into oblivion something the OP never asked is now, fuck off. Go start your own thread and argue there. Help the beginner with their original question and stop being a diva or go away. If you aren't answering the OP's question then you are being an asshole. Go start your own war somewhere else and stop scaring away beginners.

Fanboys of brands, fuck off. Rich assholes who think that everyone needs to spend $1,000 just to be part of the "club". fuck off. If you can't help the OP with something useful relating to their needs, fuck off.

In other words, consider the needs and questions of the OP and try to help instead of being a dick to anyone who disagrees with your high holier than thou position. Stop arguing points on things a beginner doesn't have a clue about or needs to consider at their level.  Doing so just scares the beginner away and shows what a egoistic prick you are.

Beginners:
If anyone says that you "must buy this brand" or that you "must spend $XXX or you are a fool" without a reason or justification, ignore them. They are just being self important illogical pricks. They are being fan boys and fashion experts. Regard those who give facts and reasons as those who have considered their positions and have weight to their opinions.

The most important thing is to not listen to anyone who says "don't worry" when there seems to be regulations to help you avoid problems. Anyone who says "don't worry" should be ignored, unless they qualify why.

Beginners, please be patient with the "experts". We are all not experts and most definitely not experts in communication. "Experts" in any field are not necessarily experts in anything else other than their narrow field of knowledge. Experts are usually complete failures at communication and empathy. The more expert a person is, the most likely they are at being nerds and irritating to others. Sorry.

[DimitriP]

We need a monthly award for creative ways of asking "Which xyz to buy?".



 

[paulca]

As a small suggestion, only partially on topic.

Can we have a "Pride" post or a "Today I achieved" log post, so newbies can post their achievements they are proud of without having to take the embarrassment of opening a new thread and nobody replying?

It would also be nice to see beginners ideas, concepts, simple projects rather than just asking about problems.

A positive spin shall we say.

Experienced members could of course point out, "That would work even better if you...", "That probably isn't doing what you think it is..." etc.

[Brumby]

This would be the Utopian view of the Internet forum culture. It needs to be remembered that Utopia is a place that famously never existed.

It doesn't have to be Utopia, just decent - and this forum is one of the most respectful I have encountered.  There is no need to dismiss the idea of people being decent, just because it isn't perfect.

My observation is that those who conduct themselves poorly in the Beginners section do it everywhere with impunity. As much as I would like it to magically change it won't unless  action is taken by moderators.

Since the moderators don't sit up and scour every post, try and assess the community attitude to everything that is said and take preemptive action, I would ask - do you Report a member's post for infractions of site rules - or do you expect the mods to do the impossible, based on "the vibe"?

Remember, too, that just because one member might get ticked off, doesn't mean any specific post is worthy of moderation.

The assessment and any action taken are NOT up for negotiation.  Moderation action is a private concern of which the general membership has no rights to knowledge of the decisions made or action taken.  If moderators choose to share anything on that score, it is at their discretion.

The role of a Moderator is far more than just wielding a big stick and there are some people that will never understand the responsibility that goes with the job.

[Brumby]

I can only support Lightages with his statement.  I know I've made similar statements in the past and it seems they need regular re-stating.

A lot of the time it is the fallout from people not keeping in mind one, simple fact:

Remember this is the beginners forum

.... and that beginners will ask questions here.

[BrianHG]

As a small suggestion, only partially on topic.

Can we have a "Pride" post or a "Today I achieved" log post, so newbies can post their achievements they are proud of without having to take the embarrassment of opening a new thread and nobody replying?

It would also be nice to see beginners ideas, concepts, simple projects rather than just asking about problems.

A positive spin shall we say.

Experienced members could of course point out, "That would work even better if you...", "That probably isn't doing what you think it is..." etc.

Begin a topic,  "Beginners first achievements, post you projects here: No negative comments allowed!" and request from Dave to have the topic pinned at the top of the 'Beginners' forum.

Paulca, I'll let you start/initiate the thread since it was your idea....

[Rbastler]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.


Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

[BrianHG]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.


Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

There is always a way to positively direct and aid without criticism.  If you cant find a way, let someone else do it.  We are talking about a thread for beginners to post their first successes.  They will know when it is time to post in that thread.

We are talking about beginners making their first blinking led.  First beeper.  Bidirectional software controlled motor.  Driving their first LCD character module.  First MCU thermometer software.  Simple opamp headphone amplifier.  Stuff like that.

[Brumby]

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.

Nobody is saying negative criticism should be banned or even avoided.

What IS being said here is that when a question is asked in the Beginners section that it doesn't descend into a chest beating free-for-all where the poor beginner's question gets trodden into the mud.... possibly along with the beginner.

Having said that, there are ways of presenting criticism so that it is not poisonous - and that should always be the way, in my book.

[Brumby]

Sometimes, however, it takes a bold statement for people to notice.

[Cerebus]

There is always a way to positively direct and aid without criticism.

There's criticism and there's criticising, they aren't necessary the same thing. "That could be improved by ..." is a critical comment, and is helpful criticism. "You idiot, that will be crap because you've got ... wrong" is criticising, and isn't helpful.

On a separate note: One liners pointing out faults or poor choices in a beginner's approach aren't helpful. Either take the time to actually engage helpfully or say nothing. Offering a, quite possibly valid, criticism isn't helpful unless it is accompanied by constructive advice or at least a detailed, reasoned analysis of what's been done wrong so that there's some active learning to be done.

A classic example of how not to do it would be the knee-jerk response that the "AB123 is crap" whenever a component that is on your personal shit-list gets mentioned*. In my experience people who do this mislead more often than inform, and often the "ABC123" is perfectly adequate, sometimes even particularly well-suited, for the task in hand.

*An exception is old RIVA X class capacitors, which are the spawn of the devil, and are always wrong.

[paulca]

So I created the thread.  I'm in work, when I get time I'll lookup Dave and send him a PM to make it sticky.

I think the thing to avoid, rather than criticism is "discouragement".  Even posting heavy technical deluges of details can discourage a beginner like myself.  Makes you feel like there is no point trying if you need to know all that detail and do all the calculus when the reality is it will probably work just fine with a bit of guesstimation as long as your aren't making a heart monitor for an intensive care ward.

[Monkeh]

*An exception is old RIVA X class capacitors, which are the spawn of the devil, and are always wrong.

But I got this box off them off eBay really cheap so I have to use them

[Audioguru]

The first post mentions beginners do not want to spend money on high quality parts that is wrong. When you buy cheap junk then usually you get cheap junk.
High quality name-brand electronic parts are not expensive, but they are not cheap junk.

[imidis]

KISS, best not to overwhelm peoplesarting out with info not relevant.   

[Bear207]

From the my standpoint, a very new member to this forum yet very experienced member of other professional forums, ..... this place is fantastic!

The significant majority of comments made are constructive with pure helpful intentions.
I am a part of a members only professional forum where I seldom visit any longer because there is no joy reading beyond the first few posts to any OP because the dialog devolves just as Lightages stated.  A lot of great information is shared, however, there is so much extra static and dung it is not worth the effort to sift through it all.

For a free no restrictions to entry forum, this place is great for all levels of experience.  The moderators must be doing a good job for I have not seen any examples of inappropriate behavior.  Kodos

As for being discouraged by comments, I agree we must all be careful and try to consider how our words are received.  So many different cultures and mores to consider.  It just boils down to good intentions and respect.

Although I am enjoying reading and studying for hours...it is not fostering domestic tranquility.   Time for me to see things from another point of view.  ha-ha  Regards.

[Rick Law]

I can only support Lightages with his statement.  I know I've made similar statements in the past and it seems they need regular re-stating.

A lot of the time it is the fallout from people not keeping in mind one, simple fact:

Remember this is the beginners forum

.... and that beginners will ask questions here.

I also strongly support Lightages' statement.

Negative critisism should be allowed, if it is constructive.
...

Now if I may make a (hopefully constructive) suggestion: If we can "clean up" our languages here, we can make this even more inviting to beginners and others.

On at least a couple of occasions, I was going to suggest to some young kid with electronic interest to check this forum out, but I ended up not making such recommendation: too many F-bombs and the likes.  I just didn't want to have to explain to the mother of the kid why I introduced her kid to a forum with languages that in the old days would cause the kid to be punished by having his/her mouth wash with soap.

Lightages, as you have used the F-Bomb in the OP, please do not consider this a criticism of you and please don't feel offended.  As I have seen many of your posts, I have much respect of your skill and your abilities.  However, I do want to share my thoughts on why I am reluctant to recommend this forum to younger kids with electronics interest I've encountered.

I'm old school...  may be too old school, but I am sure there are others like me who would be reluctant to expose their kids to such language.

[Jwillis]

*An exception is old RIVA X class capacitors, which are the spawn of the devil, and are always wrong.

But I got this box off them off eBay really cheap so I have to use them

 
You  can always use them from 4th of July fire crackers!    Just trying to lighten the mood.

[Lightages]

Rick Law:

While I understand your intent, and even have sympathy for your position I must say I disagree. Censorship is not going to work, never mind not protect anyone from seeing or hearing words in real life. In some countries some words mean nothing but in others they are held to be extremely offensive, even to the point of people being killed.

If we are to try and say nothing offensive to anyone at anytime, communication comes to an end. You can't be afraid to say what is on your mind even if it risks offending someone else. What words do we ban: shit, fanny, baldy, moron? Where will it end?

[Brumby]

I agree on the avoidance of censorship - but at the same time, I would prefer people avoid using words that can cause concern to others.

Yes, people will hear these words in other places - but those places carry with them a certain reputation or expectation from the people that frequent them.  I would rather that NOT be the case here.  As I see it, this is the fundamental concern Rick Law has expressed.

It has been my observation that the use of some words - such as the F-bomb - is primarily used to convey a more intense emotion than normal for the purpose of making a strong point ... and to do it in four letters.  It has also been my observation that these can be replaced with other words or phrases that still convey the same meaning and, with some thought, the same intensity.

I would simply encourage people to consider alternative phrases, use highlighting such as bold and underline to add emphasis ... but, in the end, it is up to each individual.

PS SMF has a facility which can intervene here - but I would not suggest it for this forum.

[Lightages]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum. Make sure your list is totally comprehensive so that nobody could ever take offense or misconstrue the meaning. Make sure that the meaning of the word you use is not different everywhere else in the world. From my experience on how different cultures can take great offense I will start the list; milk, fanny, moron, fag, fastidious, bitch, liberal, virgin, oriental, dog, mankind, sissy, crap.....

I am sure I can come up with another 100 easily. Remember if you use any of the words I have listed, you are being intentionally offensive and deserve to have your account suspended.

[Brumby]

Easy....

All I am suggesting is that if you can use alternatives, then think about it.

[tautech]

OK, word police, make a list of words that everyone on the Earth must avoid using on this forum. Make sure your list is totally comprehensive so that nobody could ever take offense or misconstrue the meaning. Make sure that the meaning of the word you use is not different everywhere else in the world. From my experience on how different cultures can take great offense I will start the list; milk, fanny, moron, fag, fastidious, bitch, liberal, virgin, oriental, dog, mankind, sissy, crap.....

I am sure I can come up with another 100 easily. Remember if you use any of the words I have listed, you are being intentionally offensive and deserve to have your account suspended.

FFS Lightages, what's got under you skin ? 

[Mp3]

I have been on hundreds of forums before this one and any forum has the problem of becoming an echo chamber. But that is just the nature of forums. I have been shocked at how kind and helpful everyone has been in my few postings on the Beginners forum here. I can think of dozens of other boards where the same question would have turned into 2 pages of memes and name calling and no help.

If there are people who keep getting in trouble they could get put on posting probation for a couple days or something so they can visit but not post until they're off posting probation.

[Lightages]

FFS Lightages, what's got under you skin ? 

Nothing. I have just seen so many otherwise intelligent people brought to tears over words. Seriously, it is impossible to not offend somebody somewhere. In some places you get beheaded for saying a wrong word. People take offense, and it is not anybody's right to not be offended.

I used the words I did because I was upset and wanted to express my complete disgust at how people act like assholes and get into pissing contests that swamp the original OP's question with childish behavior and pointless bickering. Words have uses. If I want to express myself I choose the words that fit my feelings. To tell me that I am not allowed to use a certain words that fit my feelings is the same as censorship. That is what is under my skin.