Bench or portable multimeter

[BBP]

Hi All,
       Newcomer to this forum, and getting back into electronics after a long hiatus.
I don't want to start another multimeter thread, but I did a search and had no luck, so I guess I will have to just ask outright. I apologise if it has been raised before and I was not thorough enough in searching. 

I have noticed that most seem to regard Fluke or Agilent as their preferred brand of multimeter, and fair enough too. Also a lot of the discussion is about handheld/portable units. I have a basic handheld DMM I have had for many years and it gets kicked around the place and does the general stuff. I now wish to get a new one of much higher capability and accuracy. Yes, I know those two requirements generally mean $$$.
I have a preference towards a bench meter as I don't see myself having that need to go into the "field" where I would need high accuracy etc, so my old one would do there. In considering a bench meter, would one apply the same criteria used with handhelds or is there something else one should look at. I can assume there are obvious things with handhelds such as battery life, being able to be taken canyoning , etc, would not really apply to a bench unit. The main reason I am thinking bench is that I hate gear which slides around, tips over when you go to adjust it etc.
Now as a hobbyist I cannot quite justify the cost of a Fluke/Agilent bench meter. That is not to say I don't have the capacity to get one of them, more that I tend to be very pragmatic in that if I don't use something regularly enough it is hard to justify the purchase. I was looking a some Thurlby Thandar (TTI). Such as the T1604 or 1705. Their specs seem adequate for my requirements and the price is justifiable.  I used to know them as a reputable company and it appears their stuff is still made in the EU. Are they still OK, or am I better off staying with US gear. I like to buy once, but keep things within reason. Means I can buy more toys without crawling to the minister of finance for permission each time.

Cheers,

Robin

[EEVblog]

Forget bench meters unless you have a specific requirement for one.
Hand held meters are infinitely more versatile.
Even if you have a small bench, it's handy to be able to place your meter anywhere you want and not worry about a power cord.

Dave.

[david77]

A good hand held meter is worth it's weight in gold, true.
But I wouldn't want to miss my bench meter for two main reasons: It is always where I do 99% of
electronics work: on my bench in my workshop. And second as long as I've got power it works. No dead
batteries, no crawling around the house looking for something I can relieve of it's 9V block to get my
meter going. This inevitably means something else in the house would have no battery (e.g. TV remote, fire alarm) and it would stay that way until I remember to get some new ones in (we're talking weeks here...)

[ThunderSqueak]

I always preferred to just use a hand-held meter, but then I am usually all over the place fixing stuff, from southern Arizona to the northern slope of Alaska.   Also, when you consider all the cables I have running all over the place on my bench, having yet 1 more would just be too much  Accuracy? Resolution?  meh, my Fluke 87 and my Fluke 87V are more than sufficient :>  

Worried about batteries? Don't be, and if you are, keep a few around.   Batteries are something you should always have on hand anyway ^^  If you don't....  shame on you o.o

Get a good hand-held meter with a good tilting bail, use it at home, use it other places, put it to work and make it pay for itself  

That little BK 2709b that dave reviewed looked like a great place to start if you don't want to spring for a fluke/agilent/dranetz.

[EEVblog]

A good hand held meter is worth it's weight in gold, true.
But I wouldn't want to miss my bench meter for two main reasons: It is always where I do 99% of
electronics work: on my bench in my workshop. And second as long as I've got power it works. No dead
batteries, no crawling around the house looking for something I can relieve of it's 9V block to get my
meter going. This inevitably means something else in the house would have no battery (e.g. TV remote, fire alarm) and it would stay that way until I remember to get some new ones in (we're talking weeks here...)

I knew someone would mention that.
If you get a good meter it should have many hundreds of hours battery life, and for a lot of uses that years worth of use.
And you get a low battery warning where the meter is usually still usable for a while.
So unless you ignored the low battery warning then you should never be stuck with a meter that doesn't work because of a flat battery!

Dave.

[squeezee]

. I was looking a some Thurlby Thandar (TTI). Such as the T1604 or 1705. Their specs seem adequate for my requirements and the price is justifiable.  I used to know them as a reputable company and it appears their stuff is still made in the EU. Are they still OK, or am I better off staying with US gear.

Here's a link to the meters in question (TTI). Comparing specs and looking at the prices (without CAL) on RS which are 205GBP for the 1604 and 310GBP for the 1705, i'd say you're not really saving much (or getting more for your money) compared to a major brand meter.

In particular you could get a handheld like the Fluke 87/V or Agilent 1252B for 300-330 pounds.

If you're set on a benchtop meter there are the 'budget' 3400 series Agilents, the U3401A for 290GBP or U3402 for 379.

[BBP]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Seems there is little to recommend the bench meter over a handheld for the majority of requirements.
I can see that those who work requires moving from one job to the next that a handheld is best. My thinking was similar to David77 in that 99.9% of what I will do is going to be at the bench. I was also thinking that maybe a bench meter had some other benefits, over a  handheld, apart from being mains powered that is.

@Thundersqueak, it is not that I am unable or unwilling to spring for a Fluke/Aligent etc. It was more what was the better fit for my needs. Which at the moment I will admit, are not clearly defined. I mean, I am an IT nerd by profession, not hardware anymore, more Internet gateways and computer forensics. So am getting back into microcontrollers etc. I am also getting back into ham radio, so I have a need for gear for that. I'd like and RF test set, but they are way out of my price. Keep checking fleabay though.

Actually I have been perusing the Agilent site and it would seem that the U1252B might suit. I am looking at CNC'ing my home lathe and mill it has some features I would find more useful than the 87V. I also read that other thread re Agilent or Fluke.

cheers

Robin

[saturation]

A used lab grade bench meter usually can be had so cheaply that it might offset its inconvenience.  However, to choose one properly, one has to know a bit about electronics to avoid getting damaged ones.

[saturation]

A bench meter is better at making an automated test station that is fed to multiple devices and a logging PC, so you can churn out measurements like a factory, keep track of the values, and generating paperwork.  It also is capable of the highest accuracy, say as a voltmeter.  But often, high accuracy measurements require careful or more involved set ups, because little things start to matter like the length of the leads or in ohms the need for 4 wire leads, so one tends to do such things in a controlled setting like a lab.

yup i was and am wondering too, for what reason should i buy a bench meter?

[david77]

I knew someone would mention that.
If you get a good meter it should have many hundreds of hours battery life, and for a lot of uses that years worth of use.
And you get a low battery warning where the meter is usually still usable for a while.
So unless you ignored the low battery warning then you should never be stuck with a meter that doesn't work because of a flat battery!

Dave, I knew you'd say that  .

But my points still stand. And I'll add another one or three:

1. It's always there. The handheld job gets thrown around somewhere and is not willing to show up when I need to make THAT ALL IMPORTANT measurement. Yes, I'm kind of a messy guy  .

2. You'll need more than one meter anyway sooner or later. (You should know...) So why not also get a bench meter?

3. It just looks cool to have that thing sitting there. Yup, I'm a nerd I like that sort of thing.

David

[MTron]

If your starting out...handheld for sure, bench is more specialized tech

Once i started getting deeper into electronics i picked up a good handheld instead of the cheap Chinese ones i have been using. Got myself an Amprobe 34XR-A, and i love it!

On a side note, Dave, my 34XR-A doesn't seem to have that sickly sounding beep yours does....maybe it just sounds worse through camera...but mine is pretty standard sounding.

Other issues are the same..long latch time for the continuity, beeps when changing mode, no Rel function....

But i still love the meter! (got it long before Dave's $100 shootout)


Go for the nice handheld

Matthew

[alm]

Depends a lot on the type of work and your bench setup. No argument that portability can be a major factor, but I do use a bench meter for most of my 'work' (hobby). Advantages in my mind are power source (a handheld will either power off after a few minutes, or run down the batteries if I forget to turn it off). A bench meter will stay on for hours. Another issue is the display: a large LED or VFD display is much easier to read than reflective LCD in my opinion (again caused by the power source, no way to run a VFD on a battery for any amount of time). Push buttons also work better than rotary switches with one hand. Plus they stack nicely with other instruments like power supplies and function generators, so they don't take up that much space on my bench. You can get good accuracy for a lot less money (plenty of used Fluke/HP/Keithley 4.5 digit ones for <$50 or so, you'd need a Fluke 87 to get that in a handheld).

But I'm talking about used bench meters from brands like Fluke and Keithley, I think most new ones for <$500 or so are crap. A disadvantage are that they're usually more bare-bones, you'll rarely find capacitance or even diode ranges on many bench meters, so I wouldn't recommend it as only meter. A used brand-name bench meter for <$100 or so can be very good value in my opinion.

[alm]

Not if you care about safety, unless you provide CAT III/IV class isolation, since the battery is typically connected to the COM jack. Ever wonder why the manual states to unplug the meter leads before changing the battery?

[EEVblog]

I knew someone would mention that.
If you get a good meter it should have many hundreds of hours battery life, and for a lot of uses that years worth of use.
And you get a low battery warning where the meter is usually still usable for a while.
So unless you ignored the low battery warning then you should never be stuck with a meter that doesn't work because of a flat battery!

Dave, I knew you'd say that  .

But my points still stand. And I'll add another one or three:

1. It's always there. The handheld job gets thrown around somewhere and is not willing to show up when I need to make THAT ALL IMPORTANT measurement. Yes, I'm kind of a messy guy  .

2. You'll need more than one meter anyway sooner or later. (You should know...) So why not also get a bench meter?

3. It just looks cool to have that thing sitting there. Yup, I'm a nerd I like that sort of thing.

David

I'd rather have two handheld meters than a handheld and bench meter. Twice as versatile!

If you want a permanent bench meter then it can actually be better to just bolt a long battery life handheld meter to your rack or whatever. Cheaper, no extra power point required, and doesn't take up valuable shelf space.

Sorry, but unless you are doing some form of measurement that benefits from a higher precision bench meter, the advantages are not really tenable. But as always, YMMV.

Yes, your points still stand, but that doesn't make them strong and convincing points!

Check out the Fluke 37, a bench meter with long battery life. No power point required.

Dave.

[alm]

If you want a permanent bench meter then it can actually be better to just bolt a long battery life handheld meter to your rack or whatever. Cheaper, &l;...&r;

Cheaper? Random example: Fluke 8600A that failed to sell for $10 that looks like it works fine, R/DCV/ACV/DCI/ACI, true RMS, autor-ranging and LED display (no preference for this particular model or seller). And this is a fairly normal price for those. Show me a handheld with similar quality and features for less, used is obviously fine. Even a used Fluke 73, which has less features (not True-RMS and no low current ranges) sells for more. Low-resolution (i.e. 4.5 digits or less) bench meters are not in high demand because you can get similar performance in high-end handhelds like the Fluke 87, so they are often cheaper, while used high-end Flukes are in fairly high demand (I think a used Fluke 87 still fetches $100+). Bench meters are also less likely to be abused since they don't tend to get dropped as often (although there are some trained gorillas working in some electronics labs).

[NiHaoMike]

think we can mod the handheld to take power from mains? an adapter maybe? and set it up as a bench meter like, glue it to some heavy brick or something

Very easy. Just find a small AC adapter that outputs a measured 9V or whatever, and wire it to a 9V battery connector or whatever connector you need. No permanent modifications needed, except maybe a notch in the casing for the wire. Some "classic" Flukes like the 8021B even have AC adapter connectors.

There are also those (very expensive) "wireless" power adapters for cell phones and stuff. Maybe one of those can be modified for install in a multimeter. Not sure if it might cause interference but I would expect a good meter to be extremely resistant to EMI.

[EEVblog]

If you want a permanent bench meter then it can actually be better to just bolt a long battery life handheld meter to your rack or whatever. Cheaper, &l;...&r;

Cheaper? Random example: Fluke 8600A that failed to sell for $10 that looks like it works fine, R/DCV/ACV/DCI/ACI, true RMS, autor-ranging and LED display (no preference for this particular model or seller). And this is a fairly normal price for those. Show me a handheld with similar quality and features for less, used is obviously fine. Even a used Fluke 73, which has less features (not True-RMS and no low current ranges) sells for more. Low-resolution (i.e. 4.5 digits or less) bench meters are not in high demand because you can get similar performance in high-end handhelds like the Fluke 87, so they are often cheaper, while used high-end Flukes are in fairly high demand (I think a used Fluke 87 still fetches $100+). Bench meters are also less likely to be abused since they don't tend to get dropped as often (although there are some trained gorillas working in some electronics labs).

When I said cheaper, of course I'm talking about new meters.
Yes, you can get very good bargain on 2nd hand bench meters.

It's simple really. If you like a bench meter and it works for you, then great, go for it.
But personally I find them a real PITA.
I have a HP bench meter in my lab, and another Goodwill one sitting up in cupboard. They don't get used, why?, because I simply find them less versatile than a handheld meter. Instead of the battery dying on a handheld I find it much more common for a bench meter power cable to go missing!

I hate having to probe my circuit and then look up on the instrument rack to get the reading, it's annoying. Much better to sit your handheld meter next to your circuit and just glance sideways slightly.

There are many reasons why bench meters are not common these days, just look ta how few there are on the market compared to handhelds. Handheld meters have been able to match the precision of bench meters for many decades now, and the long battery lives makes that point pretty much moot.

Dave.

[BBP]

well, I never thought this would go more than a page.
I did not think the subject was that emotive.
I really appreciate the responses, nothing like real world experience.

I hate having to probe my circuit and then look up on the instrument rack to get the reading, it's annoying. Much better to sit your handheld meter next to your circuit and just glance sideways slightly.

For me that is the one major advantage that a handheld has on the bench is that one can position it, so that a glance is all that is needed to see the display. I have more than once fried something because I had to crane my head around something to see the meter.

It looks likely that I'll get an Agilent 1252 handheld. Not sure whether the A or B. The only diff I can see is the colour and back-light. I'm leaning towards the A, as I'm not sure about that orange back-light. The A looks more blue/white in the pics. Unfortunately the closet agent in Sydney has only the A in stock and I am a bit too far south to go there without seeing both. Seems most of their stock in in Adelaide. Anyway the 1252 has a lot of features. Plus it is currently, substantially cheaper than a Fluke 87V from the local Aussie Distributor. I like the 87V, but a diff of over AU$300 swings it Agilent's way.
I will see how we go with the 1252. Hopefully the 36hr battery life will not be an issue for me, shouldn't be as I won't use it everyday. I can then relegate the old meter to the car toolkit.

Btw, here's one for the Fluke fans. A while back a couple of the guys at work were installing some Cisco DWDM optical networking kit. Something was up with one of the power supplies, so they decided to check the voltage on the input connector to the device. These things have redundant power supplies, which put out 48V, 3KW capacity I think. Anyway they managed to short out the power connector with the meter probes. Big flash, and most of the probe was gone along with half the Vcc connector on the cable.  The Fluke survived, sans probe, and being thrown halfway across a data center in fright. Very funny since I was not holding the meter or the cable. Just lucky it was only 48V. No electrical or electronic experience mind, these were network dudes.

Cheers

Robin

[EEVblog]

Australian dealers are very expensive. Have you considered buying from overseas online?

Dave.

[BBP]

Hi Dave,

Yes, I have. In this instance I'll use Tequipment for a U1252B.

US$410
Freight US$69(middle of the 3 available)

exchange rate approx 0.89 Aus to 1 US$

Approx AU$528 landed. And I will assume I won't pay any GST/Duty.

Australian price from Agilent.com.au via Aus distributor Trio SmartCal

AU$531 + gst= $584inc  plus $25 shipping.

Close enough that I probably think getting it local and saving any possible hassle with lost goods/customs, or whatever, is better. Plus possible warranty issues.

This is just this for this example. I believe Agilent a doing a special price at the moment.

Whereas the 87V is around AU$800 + gst. Therefore a much better option is to buy from OS.
I do have concerns regarding warranty on stuff though. What issues have you had with stuff bought online and had to have it fixed under warranty?. Or have you not bothered. I don't really care to have to send it back OS to get fixed. The reason I normally don't buy direct from China. But as they say YMMV.

Robin

I

[EEVblog]

I've never had to deal with warranty, my stuff rarely fails (touch wood).

There is no duty on stuff under $1000 into Australia.

Dave.

[jahonen]

I knew someone would mention that.
If you get a good meter it should have many hundreds of hours battery life, and for a lot of uses that years worth of use.
And you get a low battery warning where the meter is usually still usable for a while.
So unless you ignored the low battery warning then you should never be stuck with a meter that doesn't work because of a flat battery!

Dave, I knew you'd say that  .

But my points still stand. And I'll add another one or three:

1. It's always there. The handheld job gets thrown around somewhere and is not willing to show up when I need to make THAT ALL IMPORTANT measurement. Yes, I'm kind of a messy guy  .

2. You'll need more than one meter anyway sooner or later. (You should know...) So why not also get a bench meter?

3. It just looks cool to have that thing sitting there. Yup, I'm a nerd I like that sort of thing.

David

I know what you mean. I have been considering getting one for complementing my Fluke 89IV, which has a battery life of 72 hours. The "holy" Fluke 87-V seems to have 200 hours, so it is a bit better in that respect.

In addition, with bench DMM that irritating auto-power off won't kick in just at the moment you are measuring something, like if you want to keep an eye to something for a several hours. And if you disable that auto power off, you almost certainly forgot to turn the meter off and then the battery is gone in no time.

Secondly, at my work, bulky form factor and complex appearance is a bonus, since people don't "quickly lend" the meter for a random measurement and then forgot to return it... (no meaning of course if it is your personal one)

Third point on my list is that if you want to make automated measurements with directly to the computer using something like Excel (you can use VBA to control your DMM!), not many handhelds can do that. 89 IV is a logging DMM, but somewhat limited what you can do with bench DMM connected to a computer via GPIB, ethernet or RS-232 etc. I remember a case when we used Agilent 34401A as an thermometer in a climate chamber test, which measured also the frequency of an oscillator. We quickly put together a software which logged a frequency using frequency counter (Can't remember the model number but Agilent one also) and resistance reading from a NTC with a Agilent 34401A, using a GPIB interface. Then a nice graph was produced where frequency was plotted as a function of temperature.

Fourth thing is that if you want to measure low resistances reliably (say, R < 1?), then 4-wire resistance measurement is a must. Zeroing 2-wire measurement seems somewhat unreliable for my taste and tends to drift quite quickly.

Regards,
Janne

[saturation]

Interesting you folks mention this, its exactly what I use it for too, and prefer a bench meter for, continuous monitoring.  I also use a scope on its slowest trace, does the same but not as accurate.

Depends a lot on the type of work and your bench setup. No argument that portability can be a major factor, but I do use a bench meter for most of my 'work' (hobby). Advantages in my mind are power source (a handheld will either power off after a few minutes, or run down the batteries if I forget to turn it off). A bench meter will stay on for hours. Another issue is the display: a large LED or VFD display is much easier to read than reflective LCD in my opinion (again caused by the power source, no way to run a VFD on a battery for any amount of time). Push buttons also work better than rotary switches with one hand. Plus they stack nicely with other instruments like power supplies and function generators, so they don't take up that much space on my bench. You can get good accuracy for a lot less money (plenty of used Fluke/HP/Keithley 4.5 digit ones for <$50 or so, you'd need a Fluke 87 to get that in a handheld).

But I'm talking about used bench meters from brands like Fluke and Keithley, I think most new ones for <$500 or so are crap. A disadvantage are that they're usually more bare-bones, you'll rarely find capacitance or even diode ranges on many bench meters, so I wouldn't recommend it as only meter. A used brand-name bench meter for <$100 or so can be very good value in my opinion.

I knew someone would mention that.
If you get a good meter it should have many hundreds of hours battery life, and for a lot of uses that years worth of use.
And you get a low battery warning where the meter is usually still usable for a while.
So unless you ignored the low battery warning then you should never be stuck with a meter that doesn't work because of a flat battery!

Dave, I knew you'd say that  .

But my points still stand. And I'll add another one or three:

1. It's always there. The handheld job gets thrown around somewhere and is not willing to show up when I need to make THAT ALL IMPORTANT measurement. Yes, I'm kind of a messy guy  .

2. You'll need more than one meter anyway sooner or later. (You should know...) So why not also get a bench meter?

3. It just looks cool to have that thing sitting there. Yup, I'm a nerd I like that sort of thing.

David

I know what you mean. I have been considering getting one for complementing my Fluke 89IV, which has a battery life of 72 hours. The "holy" Fluke 87-V seems to have 200 hours, so it is a bit better in that respect.

In addition, with bench DMM that irritating auto-power off won't kick in just at the moment you are measuring something, like if you want to keep an eye to something for a several hours. And if you disable that auto power off, you almost certainly forgot to turn the meter off and then the battery is gone in no time.

Secondly, at my work, bulky form factor and complex appearance is a bonus, since people don't "quickly lend" the meter for a random measurement and then forgot to return it... (no meaning of course if it is your personal one)

Third point on my list is that if you want to make automated measurements with directly to the computer using something like Excel (you can use VBA to control your DMM!), not many handhelds can do that. 89 IV is a logging DMM, but somewhat limited what you can do with bench DMM connected to a computer via GPIB, ethernet or RS-232 etc. I remember a case when we used Agilent 34401A as an thermometer in a climate chamber test, which measured also the frequency of an oscillator. We quickly put together a software which logged a frequency using frequency counter (Can't remember the model number but Agilent one also) and resistance reading from a NTC with a Agilent 34401A, using a GPIB interface. Then a nice graph was produced where frequency was plotted as a function of temperature.

Fourth thing is that if you want to measure low resistances reliably (say, R < 1?), then 4-wire resistance measurement is a must. Zeroing 2-wire measurement seems somewhat unreliable for my taste and tends to drift quite quickly.

Regards,
Janne

[EEVblog]

I know what you mean. I have been considering getting one for complementing my Fluke 89IV, which has a battery life of 72 hours. The "holy" Fluke 87-V seems to have 200 hours, so it is a bit better in that respect.

It's speced at 400 hours actually.
The 28-II has 800 hours.

Curiously I wonder which meter has the best battery life these days?
The old Fluke 25/27 used to have 1000+ hours.

In addition, with bench DMM that irritating auto-power off won't kick in just at the moment you are measuring something, like if you want to keep an eye to something for a several hours. And if you disable that auto power off, you almost certainly forgot to turn the meter off and then the battery is gone in no time.

We've got some Uni-T bench meters at work, and they are notorious for their auto power off. Absolutely horrible to use.
Once again, not really a problem if you get a decent meter with say 400+ hours. One 24 hour forget to turn-off isn't the end of the world.

Secondly, at my work, bulky form factor and complex appearance is a bonus, since people don't "quickly lend" the meter for a random measurement and then forgot to return it... (no meaning of course if it is your personal one)

Yes indeed, no one wants to borrow your bench meter (guess why! :->)
I've found that slapping a "broken" sticker on gear helps prevent pilfering!

Third point on my list is that if you want to make automated measurements with directly to the computer using something like Excel (you can use VBA to control your DMM!), not many handhelds can do that. 89 IV is a logging DMM, but somewhat limited what you can do with bench DMM connected to a computer via GPIB, ethernet or RS-232 etc. I remember a case when we used Agilent 34401A as an thermometer in a climate chamber test, which measured also the frequency of an oscillator. We quickly put together a software which logged a frequency using frequency counter (Can't remember the model number but Agilent one also) and resistance reading from a NTC with a Agilent 34401A, using a GPIB interface. Then a nice graph was produced where frequency was plotted as a function of temperature.

Sure, bench meters are nice for proper long term logging measurements.

Fourth thing is that if you want to measure low resistances reliably (say, R < 1?), then 4-wire resistance measurement is a must. Zeroing 2-wire measurement seems somewhat unreliable for my taste and tends to drift quite quickly.

Yeah, 4 terminal is better for that, if you've got the probes.

Dave.

[jahonen]

I know what you mean. I have been considering getting one for complementing my Fluke 89IV, which has a battery life of 72 hours. The "holy" Fluke 87-V seems to have 200 hours, so it is a bit better in that respect.

It's speced at 400 hours actually.
The 28-II has 800 hours.

Curiously I wonder which meter has the best battery life these days?
The old Fluke 25/27 used to have 1000+ hours.

So it seems after all, I wonder where I got that 200 hours figure

Regards,
Janne