Author Topic: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie  (Read 12867 times)

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Offline LabSpokane

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2015, 06:40:19 pm »
Reasonable precautions are fine and advised. But don't go batshit crazy. It's not worth the lack of productivity.
 

Offline janoc

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2015, 09:04:13 pm »
You might change your mind about that after treading on a stray DIL component. lol

Well, I store those in boxes and bags and not on the floor  ;)

And a comment for the people who speak about the gradual degradation of the devices by ESD and that the factories don't do the ESD protection/safety just for fun - well, of course not.

However, those rules are mainly in place to ensure reasonable yields in production. We are talking about a hobbyist workbench here, not a lab where I am handling a $xxxx expensive parts or a factory where if I damage a FET on a board few times a day by being stupid it cuts into yields or increases support costs massively. A hobbyist is more likely to smoke that FET by connecting it incorrectly, by overloading it or simply because it was a poor quality/fake part bought from eBay  than by ESD, IMO.

So it is good to observe some basic precautions when working with ESD sensitive parts at home, but there is no need to go overboard with it. Ensure reasonable air humidity (especially in winter with dry air - a humidifier or opening windows for a bit helps and fresh air is always good!), avoid wearing clothing that produces a lot of static charge, use an ESD-safe iron and perhaps an antistatic mat, if you have one. And if you still manage to damage a part here and there, well, duh, happens to everybody, just replace it. It is certainly cheaper than going nuts over ESD for that little chance that something goes wrong.


« Last Edit: April 17, 2015, 09:06:08 pm by janoc »
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2015, 09:21:46 pm »
A few years ago I was getting about a 10% failure rate on a wireless device regarding RF sensitivity, in particular a MMIC. I eventually convinced myself this was ESD related, so I spent money and time on all the ESD gizmos like flooring, foot straps, etc. Did it make any difference? Nope. In the end it was the thermal profile during reflow, that particular device was a complete bitch to get soldered without degrading its performance.

Just think how much time you would have saved if you had used basic ESD protection in the first place.

Nothing, we all end up in dead ends, it's part of the engineering experience. In fact I have saved time because a lot of the time being over-anal about ESD wastes an awful lot of time. I am all for having an awareness, and in some situations the psychology of it works in that it is part of taking extra care.

But have I ever knowingly had a part degrade or been destroyed due to not wearing a wrist strap? Nope. I have often incorrectly suspected it, but in the end it has always been something else.
 

Online tautech

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2015, 09:31:53 pm »
I am all for having an awareness, and in some situations the psychology of it works in that it is part of taking extra care.
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Offline schopi68

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #29 on: April 19, 2015, 12:57:41 pm »
Mhhh... strange to think about.

Saying that ESD doesn't matter in an hobbyist environment... What about the friendship servicements? My neighbor gives me his pc to have a look on it. Or i am going to do a small repair work on a device i own? If it is possible to eliminate the risk of any damage due to ESD with a minimum effort, why not doing it?

Just thinking of about some of the good old HP measurement devices. Even in the 80's HP made a large effort in their production to minimize any ESD damage. Repair manuals are always claiming to follow ESD guidlines during repair - theiy did not write this just for fun. Not the only, but one of the reasons why so many of this devices are still alive after 30 years.

And then there is some hobbyist, opening this device for a small repair or just to have a look into it - giving it more ESD events than this device or its parts ever had during the 30 years before. Well, and 5 years later i am going to buy this pre-damaged device via ebay... not nice to think about.  :-//

Regarding the loss and waste of time when spending the effort to prevent ESD:
After setting up the workplace to eliminate ESD there is almost no further time investment. Putting the ESD-wriststrap on and of costs only a few seconds per day. A few times per month i am going to check the resistance against earth - that's enough to give a usable ESD-protection for the environment at home.
If i only have one device in 20 years that has a damage due to my lackness of ESD-prevention i'll lose more time in finding and fixing this failure than i've lost during this time due to wearing my ESD-strap.
The good old practice of "touching ground before a sensitive device" would cost me more time than just sliding over my wriststrap a few times per day.
 

Offline Dave Turner

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #30 on: April 19, 2015, 09:04:30 pm »
As a hobbyist back in the 60's & 70's FETs were extremely susceptible to ESD (so I was told). Even with the absence of a temperature controlled iron (I only had a 15W Antex or a 25W Solon at the time), a wooden bench and using a 1Meg resistor to connect my big toe to the radiator. - I only had one known failure of a FET from ESD.

I destroyed many more components through sheer stupidity:over temperature, over current, too high or reverse voltage etc. that I was in danger of not being able to afford any more magic smoke.

Later earnt my living building, maintaining and installing PC's, servers & network infrastructure. I've lost count of the amount of blood lost on the sharp edges inside.The ESD safety precautions I took depended on the environment and what exactly I was doing and varied from strap, ESD mat and generally antistatic environment at one extreme; to just touching and maintaining contact with an earthed chassis at the other.

In my opinion there is no one answer - it depends on circumstances and the very rare commodity called 'common sense'.

If in doubt be ESD safe but for the sake of every one else's sanity learn when to relax.


 

Offline kingofkya

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2015, 09:44:12 pm »
@schopi68

Big routers often have grounded wrist strap jacks as well for esd:) Make sens though when the thing is about the price of a car....
 

Offline schopi68

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #32 on: May 06, 2015, 01:00:56 pm »
@schopi68

Big routers often have grounded wrist strap jacks as well for esd:) Make sens though when the thing is about the price of a car....

yes, i know... and even the (i.E. Cisco-) expansion modules are delivered with a disposable wrist strap for insertion. And even this is mostly not used by many of the service-technicans "i never had a failure in the last 10 years".

Also many rack-servers i've installed had this jacks.

HP has been writing since the 70's in their service-documentations how important a correct grounding during service is to prevent ESD-damage... like many others in the business.
And so many service technicans are refusing this knowledge "no failure in the past... todays devices have protection diodes..."
 

Offline SteveyG

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #33 on: May 06, 2015, 01:41:15 pm »
As a technican that has been trained in ESD already 30 years ago i am shattered a little bit about this thread.
Some things i want to mention after reading here:

- a visible or human noticeable esd event will occur with charges > 3,5 kV. Most times you will not feel or see that you or something surrounding you is charged. High humidity may lower the charge, but in many cases not to a secure level.

- take a look on some data sheets and you will see that many semiconductors are sensitive to ESD-Events. i.E. Typical General Purpose Transistors are in the ESD Human Body Model sensitivity Classification level of 3B (sensitivity if >8kV discharge), so the danger level here is really in the human noticeable esd event range. But when it becames integrated devices are becoming more sensitive. iE. the ordinary ua7805 Votage Regulator from TI is rated  as sensitive to ESD events > 3kV. LM340-N and LM78XX is rated with 2kV on the HBM. And this are "power components".
Conventional CMOS output buffers will have a failure Voltage (in the HBM) around or below 200V.

- often it is said that there are input protection diodes. Yes, they are common today. BUT - their primary intention is to protect agaist events in the assembled device. They are going to discharge via the ground or power rail. But in unassembled devices there is no ground or power connection. They may going to discharge through any other pin in the part.
Furthermore these input protection is not capable of dissipating a large amount of energy. An noticeable ESD event is able to blow out this diodes too.

- In most cases a ESD damage will not result in immediate failure of the device. It's performance may be degraded (changed part characteristics) or it will fail at a later time. This can last from hours to tenths of years. A microscopical analysis can show if the damage has been the result of ESD.

- In an industrial environment experts are assuming that at least 50% to 80% of device failures in the field are the result of ESD damage. Miniaturization will make the things worse. 50% were stated at the year 2000, rising to 80% in the future.

- Always keep in mind that every ESD-discharge is going from one capacitor (i.E. the human body) to another capacitor (device etc). So if the charge is low, the risk of damage is lowered. A human charged to 1 kV is much more likely to destroy some components that a small piece of foam at 1 kV. The Human Body Model is assuming a body capacity around 100-300 pF and 1,5 kOhm discharge resistance.

- Be aware of electrostatic induction / influence. If something is charged to a high voltage it is able to move the charge in surrounding parts without touching them. If such a part comes to touch another (grounded) part an ESD event will happen.

I am also equally surprised. A lot of people on here spend big bucks on equipment, but fail to use cheap ESD measures.
We had a case recently where thin film resistors were being damaged due to ESD issues!
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Offline Richard Crowley

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #34 on: May 06, 2015, 03:08:13 pm »
No need for terror.  Your grounding wrist strap is more than enough for most things. An ESD mat is nice-to-have  but not mandatory.
Many (most?) hobby-level people don't take any precautions at all and rarely damage components.

HOWEVER
Storing sensitive parts in non-conductive foam, in those plastic containers is just asking for trouble, IMHO.  If you must use those inexpensive plastic containers, AT LEAST use black carbon conductive foam to stick the parts into.

And, as has been mentioned, you don't have to FEEL a static discharge for it to be dangerous to sensitive parts. 
And static discharge can degrade the performance of sensitive parts without outright killing them.
 

Offline Howardlong

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #35 on: May 06, 2015, 05:14:26 pm »
No need for terror.  Your grounding wrist strap is more than enough for most things. An ESD mat is nice-to-have  but not mandatory.
Many (most?) hobby-level people don't take any precautions at all and rarely damage components.

HOWEVER
Storing sensitive parts in non-conductive foam, in those plastic containers is just asking for trouble, IMHO.  If you must use those inexpensive plastic containers, AT LEAST use black carbon conductive foam to stick the parts into.

And, as has been mentioned, you don't have to FEEL a static discharge for it to be dangerous to sensitive parts. 
And static discharge can degrade the performance of sensitive parts without outright killing them.

Absolutely. Just get on with it. You will both achieve a lot more and learn a lot more by picking up a soldering iron and getting on with it than analysis paralysis over ESD. I'm not going to admit precisely how long I went without using an ESD strap, but it was multiple decades, not that I am recommending such a laissez faire approach you understand.
 

Offline SteveyG

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2015, 09:16:40 am »
No need for terror.  Your grounding wrist strap is more than enough for most things. An ESD mat is nice-to-have  but not mandatory.

How so? The idea is to keep everything at the same potential. If you grab a PCB off a table with your wrist strap on you'll probably cause an ESD strike on your PCB.
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Offline rgawron

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2015, 09:53:50 am »
If an ESD mate, ESD hand wrist, and soldering station are all connected, but not grounded, is such workplace ESD safe? After all, everything is on the same potential, right?
 

Offline idpromnut

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2015, 11:19:15 am »
If an ESD mate, ESD hand wrist, and soldering station are all connected, but not grounded, is such workplace ESD safe? After all, everything is on the same potential, right?

As long as the operator at said workplace is at the same potential (so /not/ grounded), yes.
 

Offline schopi68

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2015, 11:28:35 am »
If an ESD mate, ESD hand wrist, and soldering station are all connected, but not grounded, is such workplace ESD safe? After all, everything is on the same potential, right?

yes... everything has to be on the same potential. Including the floor and walls. ;)
 

Offline schopi68

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Re: I'm terrified of ESD. Enlighten the newbie
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2015, 11:38:42 am »

Absolutely. Just get on with it. You will both achieve a lot more and learn a lot more by picking up a soldering iron and getting on with it than analysis paralysis over ESD. I'm not going to admit precisely how long I went without using an ESD strap, but it was multiple decades, not that I am recommending such a laissez faire approach you understand.

Well, i started with electronics at the age of around 10 and did not know (and care) about ESD until i've had my apprenticeship at the age of 17 in 1986. Many of the devices i built in my youth did not live longer than 10 years, even the high quality assembly kits i soldered together during this time. And i did not know why they failed later....
The kits i soldered i.E. during my apprenticeship while wearing ESD-Protection and using a mat are still alive. Okay, i know there may have been other reasons than ESD. But it is not impossible.
 


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