EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: Peabody on December 21, 2024, 02:59:46 pm
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I want to buy a budget multimeter for a friend, but it seems that fuses can be a major hassle on most brands because replacement fuses are obscure and expensive. Is there a brand that uses commonly available fuses?
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The ZT-225 (https://zotektools.com/products/zoyi-zt-225/)has normal, 5x20mm ceramic fuses, and is perhaps the best DMM in this price range.
I got replacement fuses (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005552650418.html) yesterday
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007244323221.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005007244323221.html)
It's not the brand though, just this model!
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Watch this video for a reason why proper multimeters use expensive fuses. If you are impatient the really interesting part is 5 minutes from the start.
A multimeter is for life, the USA made Fluke meters tend to include a lifetime warranty.
https://youtu.be/OEoazQ1zuUM?feature=shared
SJ
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What always helps is to know the use case for the tool and a price range. Inexpensive means different things to different people. I have a couple of the little Aneng 8008's and they are great for hobby and learning uses on low voltages. If your uses are similar, I would rather have two of them vs one higher priced meter. Many times you want to measure voltage and current at the same time. There are other scenarios that might have different requirements, so more about intended use would be helpful. These guys use small glass fuses, easy to find and cheap. I do not use these meters on the high side any sort of mains powered equipment and certainly don't trust their cat ratings. I have better and safer meters, but am assuming you are starting from a no meter situation.
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AN8008 / AN8009 uses 3.6×10 mm ceramic fuses. Not unobtainable, but not very common.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/)
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The best thing to do is to order sufficient replacement fuses from AE together with the meter.
I have 3 different sizes with Zotek (Zoyi/Aneng...)
But you can get replacement fuses for little money.
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AN8008 / AN8009 uses 3.6×10 mm ceramic fuses. Not unobtainable, but not very common.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/)
The OP is in the US, fuses to fit those meters are easy to find. Most of the complaints in that thread were from other countries.
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Peabody, you are basically asking for a scam multimeter with bogus safety or low voltage ratings. Allows the use of small, common, low cost fuses. Commonplace out of china.
Multimeter fuses are necessarily an expensive, specialty part for product safety.
You need a long fuse for a high voltage rating, so they are huge at 32-38mm long for 1,000V ratings.
You need it to be sand-filled to quench any arc inside.
You need a melamine/ceramic housing that does not crack or explode in the heat like glass does.
You need specialty fuse wire to make the oddball 440mA or 11A rating which is uncommon.
Then factor in profiteering by conglomerate assholes like Eaton who acquired Cooper Industries/Bussmann and now commits highway robbery asking USD $109 for a DMM-B-11A fuse :palm:
F*ck these assholes and the distributors enabling the ripoff by buying/stocking these :rant:
Leads to chinese counterfeit fuses which are of course unsafe and many youtube reviews where they forgot the sand, they don't trip near rated current. Including car blade fuses! It's pretty awful, they are not safe at all.
All of this is terrible for people doing low voltage 12V/24V hobby/automotive work, where blowing a multimeter fuse is common and no need for the 600V or 1,000V-rated fuse.
Mains has a lot of energy behind it in service panels at higher voltages- despite nobody with half a brain using a cheap shit multimeter with <250V fuses in 480/600VAC panels.
One solution I found a tech college mechanics program, they made adapters for their Fluke multimeters to fit smaller AGC fuses instead. Just some machined brass rod. I have pics somewhere.
Yes it makes the multimeter "unsafe" for high voltage/energy work as it compromises its ratings and you can't tell unless you peek inside. But when the fuse prices are near equal to the price of a multimeter, you have to wonder.
So find a budget chinese DMM with fake safety approvals and small fuses, or think about a fuse "adapter" etc.
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The ZT-225 of @Aldo22 is beginning to look pretty good. Thanks for that suggestion.
As for my US sources for fuses, that would mostly be eBay or AliExpress. But it would be nice to be able to use fuses I get from Digikey, or even Home Depot, which would be more likely to perform to their specs.
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The ZT-225 of @Aldo22 is beginning to look pretty good. Thanks for that suggestion.
The ZT-225 is an amazing DMM in the $30 category.
It is an improved AN870 in many ways.
But you have to realize one thing: This is not a pocket meter.
It's fat and heavy (450g with batteries) and has a kind of military look.
it has a thick, semi-soft, removable plastic cover/holster.
Even though it's a handheld, it sometimes feels more like a benchtop meter that runs on batteries.
None of this is a bad thing, but you have to be aware of it.
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If you don't care about safety you can use a Fluke but install a cheap fuse in it if you have a bad fuse.
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If you don't care about safety you can use a Fluke but install a cheap fuse in it if you have a bad fuse.
Fluke=Budget meter? Have I missed something?
Why would you buy an expensive Fluke if you don't care about safety?
That's like saying: If you don't care about speed, buy a Ferrari and install bicycle tires. :-//
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AN8008 / AN8009 uses 3.6×10 mm ceramic fuses. Not unobtainable, but not very common.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/)
The OP is in the US, fuses to fit those meters are easy to find. Most of the complaints in that thread were from other countries.
Since when is that a common fuse size in USA or anywhere else?
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Then factor in profiteering by conglomerate assholes like Eaton who acquired Cooper Industries/Bussmann and now commits highway robbery asking USD $109 for a DMM-B-11A fuse
I don’t know where you found those prices, Mouser sell the 11A and 440 mA Fluke fuses for about $20 for the pair. A UK distributor has them for a similar price. Are you quoting packs of several fuses?
SJ
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If you don't care about safety you can use a Fluke but install a cheap fuse in it if you have a bad fuse.
Fluke=Budget meter? Have I missed something?
Why would you buy an expensive Fluke if you don't care about safety?
That's like saying: If you don't care about speed, buy a Ferrari and install bicycle tires. :-//
Because the OP was complaining about the price of the fuses and not the price of the meter. Besides my DMM's are all Fluke what do I know?
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The problem is that HRC fuses rated for 1000 V are expensive. For work at higher voltage / high power mains like CAT3 or 4 these are needed. YOu can't have a cheap fuse and a valid CAT4 or higher voltage CAT3 rating.
If one knows about the limitations, one could get away with a meter with a lower CAT rating, like 600 V CAT3 or maybe even 300 V that can than use a cheaper fuse. One problem here is that this not so much a thing for beginners.
I have an UT133A (some $25) that uses 6.3 x 32 fuses, that are not dirt cheap, but affordable (e.g. some 3,50 EUR ). The fuse makes the CAT3 600 V rating somewhat credible.
The problem may be that outside the EU they may also sell a version with a small 5x20 fuse.
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I don’t know where you found those prices, Mouser sell the 11A and 440 mA Fluke fuses for about $20 for the pair. A UK distributor has them for a similar price. Are you quoting packs of several fuses?
SJ
The prices above are from digikey I guess and for a single fuse. I see those prices too.
RS USA (https://us.rs-online.com/product/bussmann-by-eaton/dmm-b-11a/70149268/?keyword=dmm-b-11a) offers them for $112.46. At RS Germany (https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/feinsicherungen/4597924?gb=a) the price is 26.56€ for a single fuse (only sold in packages of five, though). Farnell apparently offers the DMM-B-11A fuse for 25.22€ (https://de.farnell.com/eaton-bussmann-series/dmm-b-11a/sicherung-10x38mm-11a-1000v-ac/dp/1241956) and 193€ (https://de.farnell.com/eaton-partner-stock/dmm-b-11a/industrialpower/dp/4437375).
Maybe Eaton/Cooper/Bussmann has some kind of shortage in the production of the fuses? Equivalent fuses from the German SIBA company are still offered at around 12€ per piece.
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Because the OP was complaining about the price of the fuses and not the price of the meter. Besides my DMM's are all Fluke what do I know?
The topic is: "Budget multimeter brands that use commonly avalable fuses?"
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I think "Peabody" wants a budget DMM, with cheap fuses.
Nobody is talking about high energy requirements.
I think I know what he means.
With my Zoyi/Aneng, a fuse in the 250mA range blows every now and then because, for example, a PSU doesn't start up as expected.
You don't want to spend a fortune replacing that (or more than the whole DMM cost).
This probably has little to do with life-threatening situations, otherwise "Peabody" should say so.
The whole safety issue is also massively overrated imo.
Someone show me a statistic on how many people die because they use a cheap DMM instead of a Fluke.
This statistic is guaranteed not to exist because it is completely irrelevant.
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RS USA (https://us.rs-online.com/product/bussmann-by-eaton/dmm-b-11a/70149268/?keyword=dmm-b-11a) offers them for $112.46. At RS Germany (https://de.rs-online.com/web/p/feinsicherungen/4597924?gb=a) the price is 26.56€ for a single fuse (only sold in packages of five, though). Farnell apparently offers the DMM-B-11A fuse for 25.22€ (https://de.farnell.com/eaton-bussmann-series/dmm-b-11a/sicherung-10x38mm-11a-1000v-ac/dp/1241956) and 193€ (https://de.farnell.com/eaton-partner-stock/dmm-b-11a/industrialpower/dp/4437375).
The 193 euro link says this on it:
“This product is part of the Farnell extended range program and inventory is held at our partner's warehouse facilities. Where inventory is shown your goods will arrive between 6 and 9 days. Unfortunately it is not possible to accept returns and all orders are NCNR (Non-Cancellable-Non-Returnable).”
So that crazy price includes whatever overhead there is in procuring said parter stock, which might include shipping, minimum order surcharges, etc.
Regardless, I don’t see the point in looking at the high end of the price range, since nobody is going to order that.
Maybe Eaton/Cooper/Bussmann has some kind of shortage in the production of the fuses? Equivalent fuses from the German SIBA company are still offered at around 12€ per piece.
We can rule that out conclusively, since the price of these fuses has been high (and has had “fantasy price” offers too) for as long as I can remember. This has been discussed on the forums numerous times over the years, going back to at least 2010!
In some markets, Fluke resells those fuses for around $11 each, likely because they buy them in enormous quantities at a huge discount. Bussmann and Littelfuse don’t really focus on selling single fuses to end users, so their supply chains likely end up making single fuses much more expensive. Fluke is better equipped to do that.
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This is strictly hobbyist stuff. I have an old Radio Shack meter that only has two lead jacks. And every now and then I would go to measure voltage on the 5V rail, but forgetting that I had left the meter in current mode. The advantage of Radio Shack is that they couldn't sell you a meter that they didn't also carry the fuses for. But as far as I can tell, the meter manufacturers today don't sell fuses for their meters, and in fact most appear to go out of their way to use the least available fuses. Or if they do sell them, they're expensive:
https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Multimeter-Accessories/dp/B0BLK6272M (https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Multimeter-Accessories/dp/B0BLK6272M)
Well maybe you dont burn out fuses on modern meters, so it's not an issue. But I just wouldn't want to use a meter that I didn't have replacement fuses for. And I don't want to spend a significant fraction of the cost of the meter on fuses.
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This is strictly hobbyist stuff. I have an old Radio Shack meter that only has two lead jacks. And every now and then I would go to measure voltage on the 5V rail, but forgetting that I had left the meter in current mode. The advantage of Radio Shack is that they couldn't sell you a meter that they didn't also carry the fuses for. But as far as I can tell, the meter manufacturers today don't sell fuses for their meters, and in fact most appear to go out of their way to use the least available fuses. Or if they do sell them, they're expensive:
https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Multimeter-Accessories/dp/B0BLK6272M (https://www.amazon.com/UNI-T-Multimeter-Accessories/dp/B0BLK6272M)
$15 for a set of 4 fuses doesn’t seem unreasonably expensive. And besides, that’s the price set by one third-party vendor (not UNI-T itself! That price is not from UNI-T’s own store, which doesn’t have them in stock.), and third-party vendors can price them however they want.
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Welectron, the german company that sells Brymen, offers the Cooper-Bussmann fuses for 9.50€ each, having 100+ on stock:
https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-44-100-R-HRC-Sicherung-044A-1000V (https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-44-100-R-HRC-Sicherung-044A-1000V)
https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-11A-HRC-Sicherung-11A-1000V (https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-11A-HRC-Sicherung-11A-1000V)
That's a reasonable source also for Fluke owners in the EU.
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I want to buy a budget multimeter for a friend, but it seems that fuses can be a major hassle on most brands because replacement fuses are obscure and expensive. Is there a brand that uses commonly available fuses?
If there was a multimeter which used "standard" fuses, then that would be unsafe.
The reason multimeter fuses are "special" is that they are designed to block DC. AC fuses are simpler because arcs are self extinguishing with AC, as opposed to DC.
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The reason multimeter fuses are "special" is that they are designed to block DC. AC fuses are simpler because arcs are self extinguishing with AC, as opposed to DC.
That’s only a small part of it. The main thing is that they have immense current-interrupting capacity, for both AC and DC (since in practice, the high-energy circuits multimeters usually get used on tend to be mains AC). They need to do this and not explode.
The other characteristic is that they are extremely fast-acting fuses.
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The roughly $100 price listed for the DMM-B-11A fuse is for quantity 10, just scroll down on the page:
https://mou.sr/41QojXW (https://mou.sr/41QojXW)
https://www.digikey.com/short/jzhztwh8 (https://www.digikey.com/short/jzhztwh8)
You can also see that these are companies that like to sell in bulk, hence the $7 each list price at higher quantities.
Dave also sells this pack, although he's out of stock currently: https://eevblog.store/products/multimeter-fuse-pack (https://eevblog.store/products/multimeter-fuse-pack)
Welectron, the german company that sells Brymen, offers the Cooper-Bussmann fuses for 9.50€ each, having 100+ on stock:
https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-44-100-R-HRC-Sicherung-044A-1000V (https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-44-100-R-HRC-Sicherung-044A-1000V)
https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-11A-HRC-Sicherung-11A-1000V (https://www.welectron.com/Cooper-Bussmann-DMM-B-11A-HRC-Sicherung-11A-1000V)
That's a reasonable source also for Fluke owners in the EU.
Whenever placing an order with Welectron, I typically add some extra fuses to carry with the DMM. Good prices even for here in the US, although I've picked up a few deals on eBay over the years.
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The roughly $100 price listed for the DMM-B-11A fuse is for quantity 10, just scroll down on the page:
https://mou.sr/41QojXW (https://mou.sr/41QojXW)
https://www.digikey.com/short/jzhztwh8 (https://www.digikey.com/short/jzhztwh8)
That is absolutely incorrect! (Unfortunately!)
The factory package size is informative only, so that you can choose to order a whole pack if you prefer the manufacturer packaging. It is not the quantity you receive when adding one piece to your cart!! DigiKey makes this a tad clearer: look at the price table on the right. You’ll see a little box icon next to the factory pack, the unit price, and the extended price.
On DigiKey, for items where adding 1 to the cart actually gives you multiple pieces, the description will contain something to the effect of “QTY1=100PCS”.
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Well maybe you dont burn out fuses on modern meters, so it's not an issue.
What about something like Brymen beeping to warn you?
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$15 for a set of 4 fuses doesn’t seem unreasonably expensive.
It does to me, but admittedly that's because those are a standard fuse here. https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/Plug_Top_Fuses/index.html (https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/Plug_Top_Fuses/index.html)
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Well maybe you dont burn out fuses on modern meters, so it's not an issue.
What about something like Brymen beeping to warn you?
That would be good, but I'll have to see if that feature is found on an inexpensive Brymen.
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With my Zoyi/Aneng, a fuse in the 250mA range blows every now and then because, for example, a PSU doesn't start up as expected.
What size (ampacity, not dimensions) fuses does this meter take? 20A and 250mA or something else?
The whole safety issue is also massively overrated imo.
Someone show me a statistic on how many people die because they use a cheap DMM instead of a Fluke.
This statistic is guaranteed not to exist because it is completely irrelevant.
I don't have statistics but there are cases where it is clear that a substandard meter was the primary cause of injuries or fatalities. AFAIK none of them involve working on (non-EV) cars, bench electronics or single-phase household mains so you do have a valid point that not everyone needs a CAT-rated meter. It's a shame that Zoyi insists on putting a CAT-IV 60V label on this meter when it clearly cannot possibly meet that standard.
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With my Zoyi/Aneng, a fuse in the 250mA range blows every now and then because, for example, a PSU doesn't start up as expected.
What size (ampacity, not dimensions) fuses does this meter take? 20A and 250mA or something else?
I ordered 250mA fuses because the device itself says “250mA MAX” at the mA/μA input.
However, when I opened the ZT-225, there was a 600mA fuse inside. But it is OK. I have 10 of them. ;)
The one at the 20A input was 20A as expected.
P.S. The original mA/μA fuse on the AN870 is really 200mA.
That's why it didn't occur to me to check that on the ZT-225 first.
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You can't have both - high voltage (>250V) rating and high interrupt capability (>10kA?) in a small 5x20mm fuse... unless you make them expulsion and there's no room for that.
Do you derate the multimeter to 250V?
I see no innovation or advances in fuse technology - they could make something smaller, suitable for multimeters but there's no need to when old existing parts are profit centers.
I checked and the ripoff Eaton/Bussmann multimeter fuses went up in price 21% since last spring (2023-04 vs. 2024-12). Eaton stock to the moon! ETN (https://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/etn)
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You can't have both - high voltage (>250V) rating and high interrupt capability (>10kA?) in a small 5x20mm fuse... unless you make them expulsion and there's no room for that.
Do you derate the multimeter to 250V?
Yes, they "derate" the meters by printing the 250V limitation near the fuse jacks. Not CAT-kosher, but you get the picture. The problem is that unless you have some super-specialty model I haven't seen, then the 5x20mm ceramic ratings are limited to 250VAC (typically no stated DC rating) and 1.5kA (or much less for the 20A version). That's OK-ish for household mains, but if you used this meter on an HVDC solar system, UPS battery bank or the HV system of an electric car it could be very dangerous.
I see no innovation or advances in fuse technology
Perhaps not very recently, but a fuse that can interrupt 1kVDC and >10kA is pretty remarkable. That's getting up near the power levels of a steelmaking electric arc furnace. Many older--just a few decades--expensive and even mil-spec instruments used HBC fuses with ratings much lower than we have today just because there weren't alternatives. Even the KTK-15 used in earlier Fluke handhelds was 600VAC without really mentioning a DC spec. The SC-3 fuse found in very expensive Fluke bench meters was good for 600VAC and 170VDC.
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Years to come, this is an upcoming problem servicing EV's - common folk will be poking around in them with HV and high energy present.
I suppose it's best to get rid of the current-measurement function and use something else when they get better (Hall sensor) tech.
I'm from an era where multimeters had no fuses. One guy did poke his probes into an outlet to confirm "it was 15A" and the rotary switch exploded and launched but he survived ok. Japanese manufacturers think if you're that stupid, you should not be making the measurement in the first place, you're not qualified so their multimeters don't protect much and rarely have certs.
Fluke was a pioneer driving the safety standard IEC-1010 circa 1988. But with their patents on the protection circuit, it killed off all competitors who could neither afford certification testing or a Fluke patent-eluding protection scheme.
Looking back, it culled the herd of competitors and today, things are no safer with chinese fake claims on their multimeters, test leads and fuses.
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Well, there's this story, although not something a hobbyist would encounter:
https://www.ecmweb.com/safety/arc-flash/article/20898038/the-case-of-the-deadly-arc-flash (https://www.ecmweb.com/safety/arc-flash/article/20898038/the-case-of-the-deadly-arc-flash)
The whole safety issue is also massively overrated imo.
Someone show me a statistic on how many people die because they use a cheap DMM instead of a Fluke.
This statistic is guaranteed not to exist because it is completely irrelevant.
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There was no fuse involved, that was during a voltage measurement.
"An engineer from the manufacturer testified that his firm had never tested that model instrument at the IEC test conditions — or even at its maximum working voltage rating." :palm:
This is the beef I have- multimeter products never tested to HV, yet claims of "designed to IECxxxxx", an EE theoretical.
People have recommended to OP to buy chinese untested products, but their PCB spacings are very scary sometimes, inadequate.
Never mind the fuse is from the bowels of Guangdong.
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There was no fuse involved, that was during a voltage measurement.
The cheap fuses are probably the least hazardous aspect of cheap meters, they just get discussed more because their issues are obvious. A Fluke from that era would have had a fusible resistor instead of the more modern surge resistor plus PTC, but in any case there has to be a limitation on input current even on non-current ranges. One reason that meters like the ZT-225 we're discussing are unsuitable for anything beyond household mains (if even that) is that they omit the current limiting resistor entirely. Even if you don't use the current ranges and ignore the fuse issue entirely, there are good reasons why you don't want this meter on any circuit with high fault current. Of course we haven't seen the other side of the board so there's always room for a pleasant surprise.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/budget-multimeter-brands-that-use-commonly-avalable-fuses/?action=dlattach;attach=2469955;image)
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Look at the ZT-225 PCB trace routing- the input jack(+) goes cross country across the board to the MOV's and two MELFs, but the limiting factor is the rotary switch rung next to it.
This is what I mean by "testing" instead of some PCB layout guy thinking he's done great.
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The multimeter fuse discussion always amuses me. Most of my multimeters are old enough that they predate "safety" fuses, and when I do replace a safety fuse in one of my multimeters, if I do not have the right fuse, then I typically drill it out and solder in a thin strand of copper wire with the proper fusing current. The example below is from before I did even that. In the second example, I replaced the really low current ohms converter fuse with a pair of 28 volt grain-of-wheat bulbs in series.
If you are really looking for a multimeter which uses standard fuses, then get the multimeter of your choice, and when you blow its fuse, replace it with a cheap standard fuse if you must.
I'm from an era where multimeters had no fuses. One guy did poke his probes into an outlet to confirm "it was 15A" and the rotary switch exploded and launched but he survived ok. Japanese manufacturers think if you're that stupid, you should not be making the measurement in the first place, you're not qualified so their multimeters don't protect much and rarely have certs.
I did that ... when I was like 9.
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Well, there's this story, although not something a hobbyist would encounter:
I didn't say it couldn't happen.
But statistically speaking, it is completely irrelevant compared to other risks in life.
In this forum, pages and pages are filled with warnings about these “deadly meters”.
Hobbyists are told that they are safe with a Fluke and that a Zoyi poses an acute danger to life.
I took a look at the statistics.
In Germany, around 13,000 people die in domestic accidents every year.
In comparison, there were 32 fatal accidents related to electricity in 2019, 7 of which happened at work.
That includes everything. Hair dryer in bathtub etc.
I'm absolutely sure not one person died because a Zoyi was used instead of a Fluke.
But of course, as a professional in more dangerous environments, I would also prefer a professional tool.
But that doesn't apply to me.
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Early 1900's old home panels used fuse-wire. You can still buy some lol.
But people can't be trusted even for their own sake. Most cheated {1916 report} (https://archive.org/details/investigationof191674rosa/page/n1/mode/2up?q=%22fuse+wire%22) with heavy wire, bolts etc. and the widespread fires were a problem even with (refillable?) economy fuses. I think led to Henry T Bussmann's 1919 patents. (https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Henry+T+Bussmann&sort=old)
I've been to UL in Chicago and toured their test facilities at the Northbrook Campus. Huge equipment that would make Victor Frankenstein's lab look like an arduino club meeting. Fuse testing at 200kA requires huge inductors, massive equipment. The test suite is a lot of lab time.
I would say the main cost of fuses is obtaining safety certifications but nowadays- it's corporate greed making them massively overpriced.
Safety costs money and nobody wants that expense. The testing of the fuse/multimeter is kinda important.
I see under 1mm spacings in the ZT-225 rotary switch, pretty crappy.
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$15 for a set of 4 fuses doesn’t seem unreasonably expensive.
It does to me, but admittedly that's because those are a standard fuse here. https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/Plug_Top_Fuses/index.html (https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Main_Index/Necessities_Index/Plug_Top_Fuses/index.html)
Fair enough, those are of course super common there. (And frankly not a bad choice for an el-cheapo multimeter fuse. Not as good as real DMM fuses, but still 6kA breaking current. Way, way better than a 5x20 fuse!)
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Well, there's this story, although not something a hobbyist would encounter:
I didn't say it couldn't happen.
But statistically speaking, it is completely irrelevant compared to other risks in life.
In this forum, pages and pages are filled with warnings about these “deadly meters”.
Hobbyists are told that they are safe with a Fluke and that a Zoyi poses an acute danger to life.
I took a look at the statistics.
In Germany, around 13,000 people die in domestic accidents every year.
In comparison, there were 32 fatal accidents related to electricity in 2019, 7 of which happened at work.
That includes everything. Hair dryer in bathtub etc.
I'm absolutely sure not one person died because a Zoyi was used instead of a Fluke.
Well yeah, but that isn’t despite safety regulations, but because of them.
Is an Aneng/Zoyi/UNI-T/Mastech or whatever a significant hazard to a home user? Probably not, if used only on the output side of the distribution board/breaker panel. But I sure as hell wouldn’t risk them on the supply side — something I can easily do with my Fluke or Keysight.
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Well yeah, but that isn’t despite safety regulations, but because of them.
Is an Aneng/Zoyi/UNI-T/Mastech or whatever a significant hazard to a home user? Probably not, if used only on the output side of the distribution board/breaker panel. But I sure as hell wouldn’t risk them on the supply side — something I can easily do with my Fluke or Keysight.
If I had to do that, I'd want a professional device too.
My point is, that people here are suggesting to hobbyists that these “budget meters” are dangerous when measuring a 9V battery or repairing the toaster.
Perhaps we should also recognize a certain progress in safety in the budget sector.
I do believe that there is a difference in safety between a DT-830B and an AN870 or a ZT-255. I would certainly assume so, if only because of the robustness of the housing.
But as I said, I suspect that this problem is massively exaggerated in this forum and plays virtually no role statistically.
Or to put it another way: if you were to recommend that the hobbyist buy an AN870 instead of a Fluke and use the difference to buy some running shoes or healthier food, you would probably have “saved more lives”. ;)
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My point is, that people here are suggesting to hobbyists that these “budget meters” are dangerous when measuring a 9V battery or repairing the toaster.
I don’t think that is an accurate or honest representation of how the forum behaves.
When it comes to meter recommendations for low-energy applications, the forum tells people it’s fine to use whatever, because it is. Nobody tells people they need a CAT IV 1000V meter for working on an Arduino.
Many times, people ask without specifying what their use case is. Until we know that it is a low-energy application, we err on the side of safety.
If someone asks why good multimeters use expensive fuses, we tell them why. The fact that the reason is not relevant to many users doesn’t mean it’s not the reason, or that the reason is bogus.
And we are merciless in our condemnation of cheap multimeter manufacturers who put fake CAT ratings on their meters. As I (and others) have said many times before: there is nothing wrong with selling a non-CAT-rated meter, as long as you don’t pretend it is. Say it’s for home and hobby use only.
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In 35 years of repairing electronics I never blew a fuse of a DMM.
One better focus on a good DMM regardless the kind of fuse it uses.
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Many times, people ask without specifying what their use case is. Until we know that it is a low-energy application, we err on the side of safety.
Yes, but the title of this thread says it's about “budget multimeters” and immediately you're back to Fluke, Brymen and fuses, which cost more than 5 “budget multimeters”.
Does it always have to be like this?
I also can't shake the suspicion that this is often about advertising.
The term “FUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt)” always comes to mind in this context.
"The aim is to create fear, uncertainty and doubt in the recipient of the information (e.g. customers, voters) about a competitor or its products (propaganda). This exploits the fact that people's feelings of fear are irrational and that even demonstrably false information can lead to uncertainty."
But well, the topic keeps coming up here...
The “boss” has also commented on this. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hobbie-multimeter/msg5693663/#msg5693663)
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Wouldn’t a lack of knowledge not be the real (and only) reason why accidents with dmm’s happen?
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Many times, people ask without specifying what their use case is. Until we know that it is a low-energy application, we err on the side of safety.
Yes, but the title of this thread says it's about “budget multimeters”
”Budget” is relative, and OP never gave a price range, nor any information about what it’s going to be used for.
immediately you're back to Fluke, Brymen and fuses
Fluke makes some budget models.
Since when was Brymen a premium brand? It’s good, but it isn’t a top-tier manufacturer and isn’t priced like one.
Fuses were what OP asked about. So it’d be weird to not discuss them.
Does it always have to be like this?
Better safe than sorry. We do not know what the intended use for the meter will be (OP isn’t the end user, and even so hasn’t shared anything about this). So we cannot assume it’s only intended for use on low-energy electronics. If the end user decides to use it to measure the input side of their breaker panel, then they really could be at risk.
I also can't shake the suspicion that this is often about advertising.
The term “FUD (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt)” always comes to mind in this context.
"The aim is to create fear, uncertainty and doubt in the recipient of the information (e.g. customers, voters) about a competitor or its products (propaganda). This exploits the fact that people's feelings of fear are irrational and that even demonstrably false information can lead to uncertainty."
But well, the topic keeps coming up here...
The “boss” has also commented on this. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hobbie-multimeter/msg5693663/#msg5693663)
To an extent it might be, but the fact is that those levels of safety are needed for some uses. What I see as the bigger problem is the lack of certification for something in between. I don’t understand why the CAT rating standard eliminated the CAT I and II ratings. That way we could recommend a safe, certified CAT I meter for basic applications.
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Wouldn’t a lack of knowledge not be the real (and only) reason why accidents with dmm’s happen?
It’s not a lack of knowledge, it’s a lapse of concentration that can be dangerous. If your decent meter is on the wrong range when you check the mains input, nothing spectacular should happen. That is why everyone that worked for the company I worked for was supplied with a Fluke. I don’t recall anyone blowing a fuse, or having a fault on their meter.
To misquote a dog charity advert, a multi-meter is for life, not just for Christmas
SJ
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To an extent it might be, but the fact is that those levels of safety are needed for some uses. What I see as the bigger problem is the lack of certification for something in between. I don’t understand why the CAT rating standard eliminated the CAT I and II ratings. That way we could recommend a safe, certified CAT I meter for basic applications.
Well, you also have to look at the psychological part.
Someone who fiddles around with such devices on mains without a clue probably doesn't know what CAT ratings are anyway.
Someone who does know can guess that a $30 meter may not be the best choice for more hazardous environments, no matter what is printed on it.
In both cases, however, it is very unlikely that someone will die because of a cheaper meter. There are thousands of other reasons.
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I took a look at the statistics.
In Germany, around 13,000 people die in domestic accidents every year.
In comparison, there were 32 fatal accidents related to electricity in 2019, 7 of which happened at work.
I call this "improving safety fallacy". It is specifically visible in electricity-related deaths (which is because it is relatively simple and effective to design safer circuits). The cycle goes like this:
* X is invented because it's convenient;
* X has unsafe characteristics; as a result, people die
* Engineers find ways to make X safer without significantly increasing price or making it significantly more inconvenient
* Legislators everywhere mandate these improvements
* What causes the deaths in the first place becomes illegal
* 40-50 years passes, a whole generation passes.
* "We don't need that safety, look how little deaths we have!"
I encourage you to look at the statistics, just do it on the correct year. If you want to see how safety level of 1970's works out, look at deaths in 1970's. I happened to be interested about this as a kid and saw the plummet from 20 deaths/year to 1 death/year in Finland during only 10 year timeframe. Just electrocutions alone. 20 today would be one tenth of the deaths in car accidents; not that much, granted, but still pretty significant, and I'm pretty glad we don't need to do these unnecessary sacrifices today anymore.
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@Siwastaja
Yes, the development is astonishing and nobody wants to lower the security precautions.
I have attached such a diagram.
Except I'm pretty sure it has next to nothing to do with multimeters. ;)
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Except I'm pretty sure it has next to nothing to do with multimeters. ;)
Yeah, in the same way you can say that safety of a light switch does not matter because unsafe light switches only caused 0.1 deaths per year. Yet, it would make no sense to add an exemption on light switches. You need to apply safety overall to see the effect.
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I apologize for not being clear in the beginning. The friend that I'm getting the meter for is a rank beginner. I'm more experienced than that, but still a hobbyist. In both cases, it's almost exclusively for Arduino-type projects, mostly battery powered. What I have in mind is a $35-40 meter that's pretty complete as far as functions are concerned. But I just don't want fuses to be an issue for him, as to either cost or availability. I recognize that there are dangers when dealing with mains-powered devices, such as trying to repair them, and he will be warned about that, including charged capacitors in unplugged devices. I realize I could spend three or four times as much for a meter capable of doing high-voltage/current stuff, but I'm just not going to do that. I don't want him attempting that kind of work even if the meter is appropriate for it. His fingers will not be CAT rated.
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What I have in mind is a $35-40 meter that's pretty complete as far as functions are concerned.
That's what I thought. Sounds like a ZT-225. ;)
Unless you need connectivity.
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Finally cleared up, after three pages and 4 days of conjecture...I asked about this in the 4th post on page one.
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Looks like the price is up a bit on this:
https://www.amazon.com/VIHELM-ZT-225-high-Precision-digitalMultimeter-automaticRange/dp/B0BM4PRCYK/ref=sr_1_1? (https://www.amazon.com/VIHELM-ZT-225-high-Precision-digitalMultimeter-automaticRange/dp/B0BM4PRCYK/ref=sr_1_1?)
This looks more entry level:
https://www.amazon.com/ZOYI-Multimeter-Auto-ranging-Resistance-Continuity/dp/B0DJZ4FFY5/ref=sr_1_11? (https://www.amazon.com/ZOYI-Multimeter-Auto-ranging-Resistance-Continuity/dp/B0DJZ4FFY5/ref=sr_1_11?)
+1 for Aneng 8008
https://www.amazon.com/ANENG-AN8008-Multimeter-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B076GZK62B/ref=sr_1_4? (https://www.amazon.com/ANENG-AN8008-Multimeter-Resistance-Capacitance/dp/B076GZK62B/ref=sr_1_4?)
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Looks like the price is up a bit on this:
I don't know what you mean.
That store doesn't work for me, I can't see the price.
It hasn't become more expensive on Ali.
Right now it's on the “Welcome deal” at $26.95 shipped.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256807058008469.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256807058008469.html)
That's ridiculously cheap for this DMM.
+1 for Aneng 8008
The An8008 is certainly a nice little meter, but it's missing some functions compared to the ZT-225 and Peabody wanted “pretty complete as far as functions are concerned.”
Also, the An8008 has those special mini fuses, which is what this thread is about.
I'll probably make a list of the differences later.
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OK, as promised, here is an overview of the functional differences between the AN8008, AN870 and ZT-225.
Advantages of the ZT-225 compared to the AN8008
25000 counts vs. 9999 counts
Accuracy DC: ±(0.05%+3) vs ±(0.5%+3)
Accuracy AC: ±(0.3%+3) vs ±(1.0%+3)
Max Amp: 20A vs 10A
Non Contact Voltage
Temperature measurement
Min/Max function (Important)
Rel function (Important)
Advantages of the ZT-225 compared to AN870 and AN8008
LED for continuity
Dual display:
- AC (V or A) and frequency on the same screen
- Frequency and duty cycle on the same screen.
- Measure DC and AC simultaneously. Also DC+AC.
More direct selection of functions, less switching.
The only functional advantage of the AN8008 is the “Square Wave Output”.
The AN8008 loses one digit in the lower mA range.
The AN8008 has uncommon mini fuses.
According to my tests, the ZT-225 has more stable readings in the lowest range (mV -> uV) than AN870.
I'm sure there's more, but this is what comes to mind.
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I apologize for not being clear in the beginning. The friend that I'm getting the meter for is a rank beginner. I'm more experienced than that, but still a hobbyist. In both cases, it's almost exclusively for Arduino-type projects, mostly battery powered. What I have in mind is a $35-40 meter that's pretty complete as far as functions are concerned. But I just don't want fuses to be an issue for him, as to either cost or availability. I recognize that there are dangers when dealing with mains-powered devices, such as trying to repair them, and he will be warned about that, including charged capacitors in unplugged devices. I realize I could spend three or four times as much for a meter capable of doing high-voltage/current stuff, but I'm just not going to do that. I don't want him attempting that kind of work even if the meter is appropriate for it. His fingers will not be CAT rated.
If you care about safety then the expensive fuse must be used. If you don't then just some foil would work besides just don't blow the fuse to begin with. All meters came with fuses installed. Also the meter still works after the fuses blown as generally they are only fused for current measurement.
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here is a list of some fuses from mouser etc
they are ranked according to the approximate fusing current @ 1 second
a UL 248-14 table states that a fuse should hold 200% for 120s max
but DMM-B-11A does much more at over 200s
the close match, 0090.012 (12A) will correctly fuse within 120s
strangely the 0090.012 is made for PV
:-// ? weird ?
when extrapolated
a DMM-B-11 would look something like a 13+A curve on the 0090.xx chart
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a UL 248-14 table states that a fuse should hold 200% for 120s max
but DMM-B-11A does much more at over 200s
the close match, 0090.012 (12A) will correctly fuse within 120s
A DMM-B-11A (and other DMM fuses) isn't made to UL 248-14, so why do you expect it to follow that particular standard?
DMM fuses aren't UL Listed, but rather UL Recognized, which is a different certification.
Littelfuse explains in the PDF attached:
Recognized Under the Component Program of Underwriters Laboratories
The Recognized Components Program of UL is different from UL Listing. UL will test a fuse to a specification requested by the manufacturer. The test points can be different from the UL Listed requirements if the fuse has been designed for a specific application. Application approval is required by UL for fuses recognized under the Component Program.
Also, your spreadsheet has an error: Bussmann DMM-B-11A has a 20kA interrupting rating, not 10kA. (The DMM-B-44/100, which shares the same datasheet, is 10kA, so one must be careful when reading the datasheet.)
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AN8008 / AN8009 uses 3.6×10 mm ceramic fuses. Not unobtainable, but not very common.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/aneng-an8008-multimeter-fuses/)
I modified my Aneng to use a 20mm fuse as it was almost exclusively used for car diagnostics, so low voltages. Worked fine until the battery leaked so badly it was beyond salvage.
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The old Uni-T UT61E can still be found on eBay or AliExpress for less than $50 with a bit of effort. As this old thread mentions, it uses UK standard BS1362 fuses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AC_power_plugs_and_sockets:_British_and_related_types#Fuses_(BS_1362)) which are pretty easy to find even outside the UK (online).
If you want a meter with cheap fuses, get a UT61E. They use BS1362 fuses. Ten a penny, and more than adequate for electronics work (don't try 200VDC 10A unless you're very, very sure you know what you're doing, but..).
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If you're looking to stock up on Bussmann fuses, check here: https://www.ebay.com/str/fishfarmen (https://www.ebay.com/str/fishfarmen)
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I've got a small stock of 5x20mm ceramic fuses. If someone is in need, let me know and I'll see what I can do - probably gratis or just postage.
I got them on AliExpress, so if anyone is able and willing to test that they're remotely in spec, I'll send samples gratis.
- 250V/250mA
- 250V/500mA
- 250V/1A
- 250V/10A
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I've got a small stock of 5x20mm ceramic fuses. If someone is in need, let me know and I'll see what I can do - probably gratis or just postage.
I got them on AliExpress, so if anyone is able and willing to test that they're remotely in spec, I'll send samples gratis.
- 250V/250mA
- 250V/500mA
- 250V/1A
- 250V/10A
I can test them on my current calibrator if you like. I can do 1X, 2X and 10X or something related to whatever specs they purport to meet. I'm limited to 20A so I won't be able to test the 10A one for 5X or10X fast blow. Are they sold as fast/normal/slow or time-delay?
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PM sent
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Even if you're Sparky McSparkface, I don't see how you'd go through more than a handful of fuses in your entire lifetime. So why buy questionable ones that have to be tested or already have many reports of not doing their one job properly???
In addition to DMMs: I'm plenty old and in my entire life I've replaced maybe a dozen fuses TOTAL. All my vehicles, houses with the old glass screw-in fuses, test equipment/DMMs, etc. Less than $100 worth, and that is buying those assortments every time instead of the one single fuse you need.
Fluke sells 5 packs of the Bussmann fuses for their DMMs if you can't find Bussmann easily. For example:
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/fuses/fluke-440ma-1000v-fuses-5-pack (https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/fuses/fluke-440ma-1000v-fuses-5-pack)
https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/fuses/fluke-11a-1000v-fuses-5-pack (https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/accessories/fuses/fluke-11a-1000v-fuses-5-pack)
Some quality fuses, but factory floor scrapings, for cheap, (not necessarily for DMMs):
https://www.jameco.com/z/GB211-JAMECO-Grab-Bag-of-100-Assorted-250V-Fuses-ACG-MDL-GMA-GMD_2179243.html (https://www.jameco.com/z/GB211-JAMECO-Grab-Bag-of-100-Assorted-250V-Fuses-ACG-MDL-GMA-GMD_2179243.html)
https://theelectronicgoldmine.com/products/gp11 (https://theelectronicgoldmine.com/products/gp11)
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Yes, the Fluke style fuses (which may also be used in other quality multimeter brands - particularly the DMM-11A fuse) are easy to find. And I think it makes sense to get the Bussmann or Littlefuse brands (and I'm skeptical that many of those fuses are fakes).
But the 5x20mm fuses for cheapo meters like Zotek or Aneng (most of which are Zotek rebrands) aren't quite as easy to find. I doubt the fuses those meters come with are top notch in the first place. In fact, if you blow a fuse in one of those meters it's probably not the worst idea to just replace the meter since they're so cheap to begin with. But I just wanted to have some spares on hand.
I believe the no-name 5x20mm fuses will work well enough. And I know I'll likely only need at most a couple of them over many years, so I thought I'd offer some to people who might have a blown one or feel they need a spare.
I only mentioned the testing because so many postings here and on the internet in general seem to be paranoid about fuses that aren't a name brand and that even name brand fuses are likely to be knockoffs if they aren't bought from a vendor like Digikey. So I figured if someone wants to test them, I'd let them have at it. I'm mostly curious how universal the claims of fake/garbage fuses are. Not that this small sample would really prove anything one way or the other.
It wouldn't have occurred to me to buy something like the grab bags you posted links to because I wanted specifically the 5x20mm size, so that's what I looked for.
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Peabody, you are basically asking for a scam multimeter with bogus safety or low voltage ratings. Allows the use of small, common, low cost fuses. Commonplace out of china.
I'd say that very much depends on the intended use. If you are using as an household item to quickly check things in your kids toys - that cheap chinese multimeter is likely fine. A standard glass fuse might explode, but - honestly - how often does that happen? And then it's still encased in a thick plastic housing, arcing is unlikely at 120V, I guess...
However, if you are using this for professional purposes or high voltages - that would be an absolute NO.
Just a note on the safety - check the cables/probes before doing line voltage. Some very cheap multimeters come with very cheap probes - just pull on the probe to check it does not detach from the cable. Had that on a 5 EUR budget multimeter I used for battery checking...
If you want something with at least a bit of certified quality standards, buy from a local hardware store or known brand, these usually have there own quality control in place.
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How often one needs to measure current? If not most DMM I know don't have fuses for anything other than current measurements.
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How often one needs to measure current? If not most DMM I know don't have fuses for anything other than current measurements.
Quite often. Still, usually the path for the highest current range unfused, only the low ranges fused. In over 30 years of both hobby and professional use of multimeters, I have managed to blow the DMM fuse once, so I don't think fixating over the fuse replacements is worth it. Instead, getting two cheap-ish but not total dangerous crap meters would be a good idea.