California Home Wiring Code for Clothes Washing Machine

[Nusa]

I agree it's a insufficient level of access for a professional who may need constant references in the field. But for a homeowner or curious individual, it's sufficient to look things up. And if you really need an offline copy of certain pages, you can always use the camera on your phone.

That's some serious BS.  A photo is probably the absolute worst form of a document known to man.  Maybe it's a tie with inscription on large boulders.

Exaggerate much? Unless you're still using a phone camera from the stone age. For many it's preferable to actually paying the price for a physical copy they're only going to need for one project. For professionals, paying that price is a reasonable cost of business. Also, there are other ways to get things for free on the internet, but I'll let people explore such grey areas on their own.

[gnuarm]

I used to read descriptions of deaths by electrocution in Finland as published by authorities for amusement and learning purposes, and I did notice the trend that while in 1980's 20 people died every year (out of less than 5 000 000, it was not a lot compared to 2000 in traffic accidents of the time, but still  something), over half of them in households, that dropped to 0.5 per year in 2000's, 1:40 reduction. Meanwhile, traffic accident deaths saw 1:10 reduction, and a lot more work has been required to achieve that, mostly in car design.

20 a year out of 5,000,000 is negligible IMO, forget traffic accidents and look at less common stuff like falling down stairs, drowning in bathtubs and choking on food, I would bet that electrocution is not even on the top 10 causes of untimely death. It would be interesting to further break down the electrocution deaths and look at additional details, if you wanted to compare plug safety for example it would make sense to look only at cases involving that.

Taking ratios with the population is pointless, as is comparing to other accident types.  If there are 20 deaths per year, that is 20 deaths per year that can be prevented. 

I have a dock, and my neighbors have docs with electricity.  There is a fault mode where the electric line develops a loss of containment and electricity leaks into the water.  The current flows out from the source and flows through the body of people in the water, paralyzing them, so that they drown. 

Since this is not a category previously defined, and it is not well known to the people who investigate such matters, it seldom is reported as the type of problem it is.  So there is little data showing it is a problem which needs to be addressed.  Catch-22.  Until there are more reports of deaths, they won't even create a category for it.  Until there is an appropriate category for it, there won't be more reports of deaths due to this problem. 

[gnuarm]

I just coil it around my palm and elbow into a nice neat coil.

How not to coil a cable,well not unless you want to introduce a permanent kink in the cable.

Huh? What on earth are you talking about? It produces a nice tidy roll, do you think my elbow is sharpened to a razor edge or something? The result is a nice tidy elongated hoop the diameter of the length of my forearm, I have cords that are 30 years old that I've always rolled up this way that have no kinks in them. You don't pull it as tight as you possibly can, you just coil it gently, I'm really not sure how you could kink it like this even if that was your goal.

themadhippy is correct; coiling the cable that way also twists it, and repeatedly doing it will twist it even more until it kinks.  This does not matter for shorter lengths which are easy to untwist, but there is a way to coil longer cables by twisting alternate loops over and then under so that the twist evens out.

https://youtu.be/OeUgSzH8GHQ

I manage to undo the twists as I unroll it.  It's not hard, you just have to pay attention as you go, and make sure when you are done, it is fully untwisted. 

[gnuarm]

I agree it's a insufficient level of access for a professional who may need constant references in the field. But for a homeowner or curious individual, it's sufficient to look things up. And if you really need an offline copy of certain pages, you can always use the camera on your phone.

That's some serious BS.  A photo is probably the absolute worst form of a document known to man.  Maybe it's a tie with inscription on large boulders.

Exaggerate much? Unless you're still using a phone camera from the stone age. For many it's preferable to actually paying the price for a physical copy they're only going to need for one project. For professionals, paying that price is a reasonable cost of business. Also, there are other ways to get things for free on the internet, but I'll let people explore such grey areas on their own.

So, you take 1,000 photos of 1,000 pages?  No, I'm not exaggerating.  You can't search these "documents" and your phone memory fills with them.  I guess you could buy a phone just for this an use a 128 GB flash drive. 

[Nusa]

I agree it's a insufficient level of access for a professional who may need constant references in the field. But for a homeowner or curious individual, it's sufficient to look things up. And if you really need an offline copy of certain pages, you can always use the camera on your phone.

That's some serious BS.  A photo is probably the absolute worst form of a document known to man.  Maybe it's a tie with inscription on large boulders.

Exaggerate much? Unless you're still using a phone camera from the stone age. For many it's preferable to actually paying the price for a physical copy they're only going to need for one project. For professionals, paying that price is a reasonable cost of business. Also, there are other ways to get things for free on the internet, but I'll let people explore such grey areas on their own.

So, you take 1,000 photos of 1,000 pages?  No, I'm not exaggerating.  You can't search these "documents" and your phone memory fills with them.  I guess you could buy a phone just for this an use a 128 GB flash drive.

Yes you are exaggerating the need to copy 1000 pages, unless you're in the professional category that I've already acknowledged need more. Suppose I want to install a new circuit from the breaker box to my workshop (we'll ignore the fact I already know how to do that). First off, the pages I need to review for that task are a relatively small subset of 1000. Second, I'm never more than a minute away from my desktop computer to review documents online. Third, there's very little I'd photo. Simply reading for comprehension on my desktop, taking a few notes for my situation, and maybe photos of a few charts/figures (which could then be printed, if I cared to do so) would do the trick.

As for buying a dedicated phone, the hard copy would likely be cheaper.

[gnuarm]

I agree it's a insufficient level of access for a professional who may need constant references in the field. But for a homeowner or curious individual, it's sufficient to look things up. And if you really need an offline copy of certain pages, you can always use the camera on your phone.

That's some serious BS.  A photo is probably the absolute worst form of a document known to man.  Maybe it's a tie with inscription on large boulders.

Exaggerate much? Unless you're still using a phone camera from the stone age. For many it's preferable to actually paying the price for a physical copy they're only going to need for one project. For professionals, paying that price is a reasonable cost of business. Also, there are other ways to get things for free on the internet, but I'll let people explore such grey areas on their own.

So, you take 1,000 photos of 1,000 pages?  No, I'm not exaggerating.  You can't search these "documents" and your phone memory fills with them.  I guess you could buy a phone just for this an use a 128 GB flash drive.

Yes you are exaggerating the need to copy 1000 pages, unless you're in the professional category that I've already acknowledged need more. Suppose I want to install a new circuit from the breaker box to my workshop (we'll ignore the fact I already know how to do that). First off, the pages I need to review for that task are a relatively small subset of 1000. Second, I'm never more than a minute away from my desktop computer to review documents online. Third, there's very little I'd photo. Simply reading for comprehension on my desktop, taking a few notes for my situation, and maybe photos of a few charts/figures (which could then be printed, if I cared to do so) would do the trick.

As for buying a dedicated phone, the hard copy would likely be cheaper.

You don't actually know much about the NEC.  I was considering adding a 240V connection for charging my car using the existing 120V wiring.  I had some ideas.  To find all the details that would impact this, was many pages, scattered over much of the document.  What you are suggesting is like saying you only need a dozen pages from the USB spec for designing a particular interface. 

I'm not going to keep discussing this with you.  You can have the last comment. 

[David Hess]

Have you ever used one of these sockets?  They don't break on removing a plug.  They break when people force the plug into the socket, rather than trying to work it in.

I have used them many times in the past, with the results that I described.  And a couple weeks ago I tested all of them that I could find at Home Depot.  They were all terrible.

I don't care what you are making.  If someone is ham-fisted enough, they can break it.

If it does not insert/extract, then force it.  If it breaks, then it was defective anyway.

So, you take 1,000 photos of 1,000 pages?  No, I'm not exaggerating.  You can't search these "documents" and your phone memory fills with them.  I guess you could buy a phone just for this an use a 128 GB flash drive.

There have been lawsuits and threats over people doing exactly that.  The companies and government do not really expect people to gain access to the NEC that way; they expect them to pay for access to the text of the law.

You don't actually know much about the NEC.  I was considering adding a 240V connection for charging my car using the existing 120V wiring.  I had some ideas.  To find all the details that would impact this, was many pages, scattered over much of the document.  What you are suggesting is like saying you only need a dozen pages from the USB spec for designing a particular interface.

The trick would be knowing what sections you need ahead of time.  A computer searchable copy would sure be nice.

[coppercone2]

I am not sure about washing machines, but for drying machines, knowing california electrical code, I recommend that your clothes line be at least a 1/4 inch rope and preferably hung high enough so that someone does not walk into the line.

[gnuarm]

Have you ever used one of these sockets?  They don't break on removing a plug.  They break when people force the plug into the socket, rather than trying to work it in.

I have used them many times in the past, with the results that I described.  And a couple weeks ago I tested all of them that I could find at Home Depot.  They were all terrible.

Can you explain to me how you break the shutters by removing the plug?  I think that would take some special skill that I don't possess.

I don't care what you are making.  If someone is ham-fisted enough, they can break it.

If it does not insert/extract, then force it.  If it breaks, then it was defective anyway.

Still, how does it not extract.  I've never seen an electric outlet that the plug would jam into and not be removed. 

But, I can clearly see why you have trouble inserting plugs into sockets.  I bet you are fun on a date.  LOL

So, you take 1,000 photos of 1,000 pages?  No, I'm not exaggerating.  You can't search these "documents" and your phone memory fills with them.  I guess you could buy a phone just for this an use a 128 GB flash drive.

There have been lawsuits and threats over people doing exactly that.  The companies and government do not really expect people to gain access to the NEC that way; they expect them to pay for access to the text of the law.

You don't actually know much about the NEC.  I was considering adding a 240V connection for charging my car using the existing 120V wiring.  I had some ideas.  To find all the details that would impact this, was many pages, scattered over much of the document.  What you are suggesting is like saying you only need a dozen pages from the USB spec for designing a particular interface.

The trick would be knowing what sections you need ahead of time.  A computer searchable copy would sure be nice.

That's why photos totally suck!

[Nusa]

I have very clearly said that photos are NOT my primary resource. You are clearly choosing not to comprehend that I am willing to use the indexed and searchable computer online resource for necessary research. If that's beyond your comprehension, that's your problem, not mine.

[Siwastaja]

20 a year out of 5,000,000 is negligible IMO

On population level, it's statistically negligible but those early deaths, many children, are still tragedies and so unnecessary, as those are damn easy to prevent, which is exactly why they went down to zero with not much effort. Compare to choking in food, there is not much you can do about it, you can't force people only eat mashed foods.

Electricity-originated fires are much more common and to reduce them you must have authorities, rules and supervision anyway, electrocution risks get caught at the same time for not much extra effort.

[David Hess]

Can you explain to me how you break the shutters by removing the plug?  I think that would take some special skill that I don't possess.

...

Still, how does it not extract.  I've never seen an electric outlet that the plug would jam into and not be removed.

The tight tolerances needed for the tamper mechanism in the socket are not commensurate with the dimensions and finish of commonly encountered plugs, so invariably some plugs will fit very tightly, or even not at all.  This is only vary rarely a problem with non-tamper resistant sockets.

Like I said, I tested this a couple weeks ago at Home Depot with their various tamper resistant plugs, and they all jammed with some plugs more often than not.  I was thinking of using them in the heavy outlet box strips that I make figuring the doors would keep debris out, but abandoned the idea when I found that they have not improved over the ones I remember from decades ago.

The trick would be knowing what sections you need ahead of time.  A computer searchable copy would sure be nice.

That's why photos totally suck!

Some OCR systems which produce text searchable PDFs work really well, but I sure would not want to scan 1000s of pages, and at least in my experience the government office will object and stop you if you try.

[gnuarm]

Can you explain to me how you break the shutters by removing the plug?  I think that would take some special skill that I don't possess.

...

Still, how does it not extract.  I've never seen an electric outlet that the plug would jam into and not be removed.

The tight tolerances needed for the tamper mechanism in the socket are not commensurate with the dimensions and finish of commonly encountered plugs, so invariably some plugs will fit very tightly, or even not at all.  This is only vary rarely a problem with non-tamper resistant sockets.

So, you are saying the plug goes into the socket ok, but when you try to remove it, the plug jams in the shutter somehow, and the shutter breaks as you remove it? 

Never seen that one!!!

Like I said, I tested this a couple weeks ago at Home Depot with their various tamper resistant plugs, and they all jammed with some plugs more often than not.  I was thinking of using them in the heavy outlet box strips that I make figuring the doors would keep debris out, but abandoned the idea when I found that they have not improved over the ones I remember from decades ago.

"Jammed" meaning what exactly?  You couldn't get the plug in?  You couldn't take it out? 

The trick would be knowing what sections you need ahead of time.  A computer searchable copy would sure be nice.

That's why photos totally suck!

Some OCR systems which produce text searchable PDFs work really well, but I sure would not want to scan 1000s of pages, and at least in my experience the government office will object and stop you if you try.

So the document is largely unavailable other than sitting in front of your computer and reading one page at a time? 

This conversation has gotten very stale. 

[james_s]

Hmm, fact check time:


Wow, so big. Note the flimsy pins you can't fold away.

Before you act like a smug prick, you might consider that you're looking at a different charger than I'm talking about. These are the sort of iPhone chargers I have, which as you can see are considerably smaller than a UK plug. I have a handful of things with SMPS wall warts that are similarly sized. I don't care about folding prongs, that makes zero difference on the space it takes up when it's plugged into a receptacle which is where the dimensions matter the most in terms of blocking adjacent sockets and reasonable density power strips.

[james_s]

The tight tolerances needed for the tamper mechanism in the socket are not commensurate with the dimensions and finish of commonly encountered plugs, so invariably some plugs will fit very tightly, or even not at all.  This is only vary rarely a problem with non-tamper resistant sockets.

Like I said, I tested this a couple weeks ago at Home Depot with their various tamper resistant plugs, and they all jammed with some plugs more often than not.  I was thinking of using them in the heavy outlet box strips that I make figuring the doors would keep debris out, but abandoned the idea when I found that they have not improved over the ones I remember from decades ago.

The biggest issue is that TR receptacles are only required in residences so they are (as far as I've seen) only available in "builder grade" which is garbage and not commercial "spec grade" receptacles which are vastly superior. Additionally the low quality TR receptacles cost about as much as the standard spec grade stuff and for what gain? Is there any evidence at all that TR receptacles reduce the number of electrical injuries?

[Monkeh]

Before you act like a smug prick, you might consider that you're looking at a different charger than I'm talking about.

I went looking for a comparison of current generation chargers. So sorry you didn't specify which tiny obsolete 5W one you were concerned about.

I don't care about folding prongs, that makes zero difference on the space it takes up when it's plugged into a receptacle which is where the dimensions matter the most in terms of blocking adjacent sockets and reasonable density power strips.

It makes a difference regarding its portability, which is the only reason it needs to be that compact. Blocking is a non-issue (wait.. it's a non-issue for us. Your problems are your own, don't blame them on our design being larger..), and density is rarely a concern for most users - for actual density sensitive applications, may I introduce you to IEC 60320?

E: I should clarify, blocking is a non-issue until you combine one of these with a top-exit wart put on the market by a sadist:

[David Hess]

So, you are saying the plug goes into the socket ok, but when you try to remove it, the plug jams in the shutter somehow, and the shutter breaks as you remove it?

...

"Jammed" meaning what exactly?  You couldn't get the plug in?  You couldn't take it out?

Usually the plug is difficult to insert, and once inserted the plug is difficult to remove.  Either operation may break something.  And if one of the windows inside breaks, then it tends to jam the mechanism.

Sometimes they work, at least for a while.

Back in the 70s I remember having plastic outlet covers which plugged in to achieve the same thing.

[gnuarm]

So, you are saying the plug goes into the socket ok, but when you try to remove it, the plug jams in the shutter somehow, and the shutter breaks as you remove it?

...

"Jammed" meaning what exactly?  You couldn't get the plug in?  You couldn't take it out?

Usually the plug is difficult to insert, and once inserted the plug is difficult to remove.  Either operation may break something.  And if one of the windows inside breaks, then it tends to jam the mechanism.

Sometimes they work, at least for a while.

Back in the 70s I remember having plastic outlet covers which plugged in to achieve the same thing.

I don't know how to help you.  Perhaps you should try a lubricant that is safe to use on electric outlets? 

If this is truly the problem you make it out to be, I would expect they'd be taken off the market.

[themadhippy]

Back in the 70s I remember having plastic outlet covers which plugged in to achieve the same thing.

Unfortunately such things are available here and many of the "but think of the children" brigade  try to promote there use without realising they can actually reduce the safety of our shuttered sockets.

[BlackICE]

If this is truly the problem you make it out to be, I would expect they'd be taken off the market.

IMO there are many laws and regulations that don't make any sense and are never changed. They just keep adding more $hitty regulations each year.

Gasoline cans are a great example. Hardly any of them work, easily break, and leaking more gas and fumes than the old non-epa approved ones, yet they are still on the market.

[David Hess]

Gasoline cans are a great example. Hardly any of them work, easily break, and leaking more gas and fumes than the old non-epa approved ones, yet they are still on the market.

I have now spilled more diesel in one incident because of those fucking EPA approved storage containers than all of the fuel I have spilled in decades, and now containers that used to cost $5 cost $30.

[BlackICE]

In CA home owners have to follow a lot of regulations when it comes to electrically and fire safety. It is interesting that the homeless have zero worries about blatant violations of the same regulations and outright utility theft when it comes to electrical wiring and using fires for cooking and heating.



Do you think these people are using GFCI outlets, or following proper plumbing codes? They wouldn't worry at all about using a jerry rigged clothes washing machine without the correct plug and wiring?

[james_s]

If this is truly the problem you make it out to be, I would expect they'd be taken off the market.

IMO there are many laws and regulations that don't make any sense and are never changed. They just keep adding more $hitty regulations each year.

Gasoline cans are a great example. Hardly any of them work, easily break, and leaking more gas and fumes than the old non-epa approved ones, yet they are still on the market.

Those approved gas cans are awful, they glug fuel all over the place, I've spilled way more fuel with those things than I ever did with the old fashioned kind and yet they're still required. Thankfully you can buy replacement nozzles sold for "potable water" cans which you can use to fix the gas cans so they actually work. I solved the issue for myself by buying a nato jerry can which was also sold as a water can for legal reasons, it works great, seals tightly so the gas keeps longer and it doesn't slop it all over.

[gnuarm]

If this is truly the problem you make it out to be, I would expect they'd be taken off the market.

IMO there are many laws and regulations that don't make any sense and are never changed. They just keep adding more $hitty regulations each year.

Gasoline cans are a great example. Hardly any of them work, easily break, and leaking more gas and fumes than the old non-epa approved ones, yet they are still on the market.

It's not every day that bad designs are blamed on government regulations.  But it is every other day.  Talk is cheap. 

I don't recall ever seeing a good gas can until they started making them from plastic.   What's wrong with them now? 

[BlackICE]

The valve often fail seal and leak, or open as when it suppose to. The cap seals fail and leak. When the seals and valves do work holding the gas fumes inside as designed the plastic can blows up like a balloon due to the hydro carbon's vapor pressure, weakening the container. I haven't had one fail yet, but I did have a 5 gallon look like a soda can left inside the freezer.