Author Topic: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?  (Read 761 times)

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Online cybermausTopic starter

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Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« on: Yesterday at 07:55:00 am »
So I went to Norway for the holidays, with my tiny RV as vehicle, but did not sleep in it.
And it got to -19C overnight.

And it seems my solar mppt controler broke, ended up with a burst capacitor. Upon returning, the MPPT was dead with a few drops of electrolyte still seen dripped out when I dismounted it and likely held it at new angles. And yes, it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste (I should not have tasted that). Manufacturer lists -30C for the MPPT device as a whole, but I am not sure what the capacitors by themselves would be.
As you may imagine, there is not a whole lot of solar load in the Norway winter, so we can ignore cooking or frying the capacitor. Even if there was a single sunny moment, it would get nowhere near the specs (in fact, it would not even get near the voltage specs if I was in Spain in Summer).

Someone mentioned condensation, but while condensation can short or rot stuff, I do not see how external water, freezing or not, can cause a capacitor to burst from within. Also, apart from the exact place where the stuff dripped, everything else, above, below, to the side of the device, was very dry with no visible hints of past water. No drying lines nor blackness on the untreated wood.
And of course, condensation is actually more of a summer or spring problem. The air is actually pretty dry in winter.


Can they freeze? Anyoney has had such a thing before?
Or am I completely chasing phantoms with this freeze theory?
Would it have to have been a bad batch to freeze (like the famous Dell capacitors of early 2000)?

Photo for ambiance





« Last Edit: Yesterday at 07:57:08 am by cybermaus »
 

Offline ahsrabrifat

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #1 on: Yesterday at 12:47:15 pm »
Yes. Electrolytic capacitors can freeze and fail in extremely low temperatures.
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/aluminium-electrolytic-capacitor-in-low-temperature.89181/
 

Online David Hess

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 03:00:20 pm »
Aluminum electrolytic capacitors can freeze, but starting at -25C in the worst case.  Even if they freeze, they do not usually burst.
 

Online CaptDon

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 09:33:33 pm »
We regularly test from -40C to +100C although sometimes only up to +85C. We have done extended soaks for a week and even a little more at the high and low test limits. I have not seem any failures like yours. I have although rarely seen electrical failures after days of thermal extreme cycling. I saw one case similar to yours with a swelled capacitor and a forensic investigation seemed to show that the electrolyte has decomposed to water and solids and the watery part did swell upon freezing. I wonder if your capacitor had previously burst unknown to you and over time while losing the electrolyte it finally failed to have enough capacity to function in your system? The capacitor may have had high ESR, produced extra heat and burst but continued to operate until total failure occurred?
Collector and repairer of vintage and not so vintage electronic gadgets and test equipment. What's the difference between a pizza and a musician? A pizza can feed a family of four!! Classically trained guitarist. Sound engineer.
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #4 on: Today at 09:47:35 am »
Quote
...it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste ...(I should not have tasted that).

The electrolyte in the capacitors contains Ethylene Glycol. Do not ingest it
organ damage is irreversible.

X
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol_poisoning
« Last Edit: Today at 09:52:17 am by Xena E »
 
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Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #5 on: Today at 10:45:34 am »
Quote
...it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste ...(I should not have tasted that).

The electrolyte in the capacitors contains Ethylene Glycol. Do not ingest it
organ damage is irreversible.

X
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol_poisoning

It was stupid yes. I wondered if it was water so I unthinkingly licked my wet fingertip before I could stop myself

Anyway, since you added a reference, I checked, and it has a LD50 of 4 gram per kilogram body weight
Which is 3x worse then alcohol (which I vaguely recall is somewhat chemically related). So licking my fingertip  is roughly the same as you getting the last drop out of your empty beerglass (ignoring where the rest of the beer went)

Not that such is a good argument for drinking glycol. Instead we should stop drinking alcohol really. That too has organ damage in its description.

Edit: interesting relevant toxicity video: https://youtu.be/-lXIaS2tkkk?si=yONd3d0U1XBfIQSF
« Last Edit: Today at 11:22:57 am by cybermaus »
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #6 on: Today at 02:02:54 pm »
Quote
...it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste ...(I should not have tasted that).

The electrolyte in the capacitors contains Ethylene Glycol. Do not ingest it
organ damage is irreversible.

X
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol_poisoning

It was stupid yes. I wondered if it was water so I unthinkingly licked my wet fingertip before I could stop myself

Anyway, since you added a reference, I checked, and it has a LD50 of 4 gram per kilogram body weight
Which is 3x worse then alcohol (which I vaguely recall is somewhat chemically related). So licking my fingertip  is roughly the same as you getting the last drop out of your empty beerglass (ignoring where the rest of the beer went)

Not that such is a good argument for drinking glycol. Instead we should stop drinking alcohol really. That too has organ damage in its description.

Edit: interesting relevant toxicity video: https://youtu.be/-lXIaS2tkkk?si=yONd3d0U1XBfIQSF
Greetings cybermaus...

Thanks for the video link!

I wasn't saying that it was going to do any real harm in this instance, the content of one small capacitor isnt going to kill a maus (😁) and nor was I berating your post, however, we never know what kind of person reads these posts...Ethylene poisoning in even small quantities also has a greater cumulative effect. Your beer contains Ethanol, and where it is chemically similar to Ethylene it is no where near as poisonous, as in the quantities needed to cause an immediate problem are much smaller for Ethylene. The relative toxicity is not a linear relationship, and also people with differing metabolism will be affected differently.

It's health effect is similar to but far more severe than IPA poisoning, I recently had to sack a junior employee because he had thought it was fun to put IPA in a colleagues drinks mug. (Fortunately it wasnt consumed).

Best regards,
X
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #7 on: Today at 04:04:17 pm »
Anyway, since you added a reference, I checked, and it has a LD50 of 4 gram per kilogram body weight
Which is 3x worse then alcohol (which I vaguely recall is somewhat chemically related). So licking my fingertip  is roughly the same as you getting the last drop out of your empty beerglass (ignoring where the rest of the beer went)

Not that such is a good argument for drinking glycol. Instead we should stop drinking alcohol really. That too has organ damage in its description.

The old-school antidote for ethylene glycol was ethanol.  So if you accidentally ingest some antifreeze or capacitor electrolyte and you are stranded in a remote area, the thing to do is get drunk. 
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #8 on: Today at 04:19:43 pm »
The old-school antidote for ethylene glycol was ethanol.  So if you accidentally ingest some antifreeze or capacitor electrolyte and you are stranded in a remote area, the thing to do is get drunk.

"Help, I accidentally drank some poison" "Here, have some different poison to neutralize"
....
Interestingly, with all the side-effects of all common medicine, this is actually pretty normal medical advise. The trick is to know exactly which one, and use fancier words.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #9 on: Today at 04:44:06 pm »
No, -19degC does not damage electrolytic capacitors. The product was just crap. With crap, anything can act as trigger for failure; maybe low temperature, maybe not.
 

Online coppice

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #10 on: Today at 05:07:57 pm »
Electrolytics don't all use the same electrolyte. They fail at different temperatures. Most won't do well after a spell at -55C, while mil spec ones are required to. Most components have two temperature ranges. Storage and operating. Some have three. Long term storage, short term storage, and operating. For electrolytics believe those ranges.
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #11 on: Today at 05:21:39 pm »
The old-school antidote for ethylene glycol was ethanol.  So if you accidentally ingest some antifreeze or capacitor electrolyte and you are stranded in a remote area, the thing to do is get drunk.

"Help, I accidentally drank some poison" "Here, have some different poison to neutralize"
....
Interestingly, with all the side-effects of all common medicine, this is actually pretty normal medical advise. The trick is to know exactly which one, and use fancier words.

bdunham7 is 100% correct.

Get drunk and stay drunk until you get to a hospital with dialysis facilities. The ethanol will competitively inhibit ethylene glycol metabolism, and formation and accumulation of the toxic metabolites.

X

PS.
Just checked:
Modern treatment is Fomepizole... a very expensive drug. Swigging capacitor juice will cost you about €5k just for medication.
 

Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #12 on: Today at 05:24:24 pm »
Fomepizole
See? fancier words.

(actually, all of this, from ethanol to fomepizole, was in the linked video)
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #13 on: Today at 05:33:10 pm »
Get drunk and stay drunk until you get to a hospital with dialysis facilities. The ethanol will competitively inhibit ethylene glycol metabolism, and formation and accumulation of the toxic metabolites.

Two things I remember about this are 1) you have to be very drunk, the ethanol was typically given via IV because the amount would make many people too sick to drink it all and 2) you'll eventually eliminate the glycol on your own because there are two routes--one it is eliminated directly and without harm and the other it is converted to oxalic acid which destroys your kidneys.  I'm sure there's more to it, but I remember the oxalic acid because I had a kidney stone (not ethylene glycol related) and it was mentioned as being part of the process.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #14 on: Today at 05:35:36 pm »
Fomepizole
See? fancier words.

(actually, all of this, from ethanol to fomepizole, was in the linked video)

Exactly, fancier words, (had to Gurgle it again, as I'd forgotten already. Over the years too much capacitor juice got to me brane  :-DD)

And just in case readers couldn't be bothered to watch the video.

X
 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #15 on: Today at 05:40:21 pm »
Get drunk and stay drunk until you get to a hospital with dialysis facilities. The ethanol will competitively inhibit ethylene glycol metabolism, and formation and accumulation of the toxic metabolites.

Two things I remember about this are 1) you have to be very drunk, the ethanol was typically given via IV because the amount would make many people too sick to drink it all and 2) you'll eventually eliminate the glycol on your own because there are two routes--one it is eliminated directly and without harm and the other it is converted to oxalic acid which destroys your kidneys.  I'm sure there's more to it, but I remember the oxalic acid because I had a kidney stone (not ethylene glycol related) and it was mentioned as being part of the process.

Could easily be you ingested it in the form of rhubarb pie!

Oxalic acid is contained in the leaves of the plant and their stems if exposed to light whilst growing.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #16 on: Today at 06:04:45 pm »
Nobody has asked--what brand/model was the capacitor?
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #17 on: Today at 06:14:59 pm »
Not sure. I did not open the device as yet, as I am awaiting warranty judgement, which will probably take a few days.
But it is bound to be a proper one, as it is a Victron, which should be a proper brand MPPT.

Here is a link of the exact same model device opened by someone else (for a different reason).
https://community.victronenergy.com/t/can-the-non-replaceable-fuse-in-the-100-30-mppt-controller-be-repaired/17584/7

 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #18 on: Today at 06:37:06 pm »
[On topic mode]
Was the device powered up whilst in the low temperature state?
Some have badly deteriorated specifications when they are operating near their temperature extremes. Even loss of capacitance can cause something like a rise in ripple that could cause it to fail perhaps?

X

 

Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #19 on: Today at 06:48:08 pm »
Well yes. I mean, there will not have been a lot of solar, but it was of course hooked up to the battery. As is normal for a solar install in a camper.
And well within -30..+80 operating spec.
(Note: for lead, not for LFP. Keep your LFP's out of the frost guys)

Anyway, the reason I asked here on EEV as a generic question (as well as with the victron specialists for the more device specific review) is because I wanted to sound out if anyone has ever had a frozen cap.
As I asked at the start:
    "Can they freeze? Anyone has had such a thing before?"
    "Or am I completely chasing phantoms with this freeze theory?"

Personally, it would be a completely new failure mode to me, even though cars are full of capacitors while outside in winder.
So far, no one seems to have admitted to ever having a cap fail due to freezing, even though @CaptDon claims to normally test them to -40C.

 

Offline Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #20 on: Today at 07:23:13 pm »
Can they freeze? I'd say yes, however not at -20°C if they're good quality. I'm aware there are different specifications from commercial grade to mil spec.

Storage and operating parameters are also quoted at seperate figures but you would think that a respected manufacturer wouldn't use a poor component in a design that they claim will work above –30°C

It would be an interesting and infomative experiment to test a capacitor, freeze it down to the minus 20, then re-test it, I have some electrolytic capacitors here, I'll seal one on a container now, put it in the freezer, and report later.

Just out of interest what was the value and voltage rating of the burst capacitor?

X
 

Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #21 on: Today at 07:32:32 pm »
As per image of similar model device linked above: 6 pieces of 220uF 160V 105C (presumed low ESR as well)
Which means quite a wide spec margin from the 12V battery and 36Vmpp solar that was attached to it.

I was planning a similar test with the remaining non-ruptured ones if/when they would reject warranty
Out of interest, not because it would be worth trying to change their mind

CaptDon seems to think they more likely have failed due to other reasons, and the frost merely prevented me from smelling/discovering the electrolyte.
But, with a 36V to 160V voltage margin, what on earth could have made them fail. Must be a similar bad batch, and if we assume a bad batch, then all would be possible again
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #22 on: Today at 07:41:30 pm »
But, with a 36V to 160V voltage margin, what on earth could have made them fail.

Internal heating from ripple current is what often kills electrolytic capacitors, not as much overvoltage (they usually sustain 10-20% overvoltage just fine).

In cold temperatures the ESR is much MUCH higher, meaning the capacitors dissipate more power than usual - but then again this is a self-rectifying situation, as they heat up then the power dissipation goes down again. But I'm not sure if there can be some sudden failure simply from localized sudden heating (high thermal power density) and temperature difference it causes, maybe it's a viable idea?

Given it's Victor and not some crappy Ebay special, the capacitor is probably not seriously underdimensioned either. So maybe quality control problem with the capacitor itself combined with the temperature-related hotspotting acting as a trigger?

Note though that if panels are rated to 36Vmpp, then Voc is much higher, and at low temperatures get even higher. Still not anywhere close to 160V, though, so voltage is unlikely cause.
 

Online CaptDon

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #23 on: Today at 08:02:48 pm »
Why such a voltage margin?? That makes no sense at all since a 220uf@160vdc would be much more expensive than one rated for 50 or 63vdc. Are you sure that capacitor bank only had up to 36 volts on it? That hits me as very strange from a manufacturing / cost benefit point of view. The circuit boards loaded with capacitors and even super capacitors that I speak of are going into locomotives and we have some thermal chambers which use dry nitrogen which eliminates the buildup of frost and other chambers with dual stage cooling that do tend to accumulate frost on the boards which can have its own merits or drawbacks. Testing to -40C is always done, the +85C or +100C spec is set by the customer. On a side note, we have learned that ethernet phy magnetics seem to stop working above 105C and switched mode magnetics when the supply is at 100C and the magnetics are running around 130C start to also not work properly.
Collector and repairer of vintage and not so vintage electronic gadgets and test equipment. What's the difference between a pizza and a musician? A pizza can feed a family of four!! Classically trained guitarist. Sound engineer.
 

Online cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #24 on: Today at 08:19:15 pm »
Well, those are the models Victron sells.

75V by 15 Amp
75V by 20 Amp
100V by 30 Amp
100V by 50 Amp

It's kind of logical for Victron to not choose 100V caps for 100V device, and 160V is the next one up.

It is not Victron's fault I choose to only hook 2x 18V panels in series to it.
Actually, 4 100W panels in a 2x2, giving 400W or 27Amps theoretical max on 12V)

So I (theoretically) needed the 100V model, because 20Amp was too low.
I could have done all in 4 series but that would have surpassed the 75V model anyway, so still stuck to the 100V model.

Had they made a 75V by 30Amp, it would have been a better theoretical fit, that is true.
In retrospect, I never seen it charge more then 12 Amp (flat roof, and also usually the battery is already into absorption before we reach the middle of the day) so probably a 75x20 would have been plenty.
« Last Edit: Today at 08:33:32 pm by cybermaus »
 


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