Author Topic: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?  (Read 2673 times)

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Offline golden_labels

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2025, 08:54:49 pm »
There are some good hints.

On one hand, lower temperatures are better for capacitors. In their capacitor datasheets, Vishay supplies a chart indicating by how much expected lifetime is increased as a function of temperature and ripple current. The increase is of multiple orders of magnitude.

Here is an example for 013 RLC series, I think the worst of all (Fig. 10, p. 4):

Similar for TDK B41858 (p. 14):


Generally aluminium electrolytic capacitors are all rated down to -55°C to -40°C. All bear the IEC 60068 climate category 40 or 55 too.

But it also seems that the higher voltage capacitors have much shorter range. For 150 CRZ (250 CRZ-V for high vibration) the rating goes from -55°C to -40°C after crossing 63 V. The 056 PSM-SI snap-in are -40°C, but their 200–450V counterpart (057 PSM-SI) is only -25°C. Similar TDK’s B43858 series, which are rated for -25 °C.

In Vishay’s outline of their test procedures, for cold endurance testing with no voltage, the requirements include “no leakage of electrolyte.” Which would also suggest that one of failure modes in low temperatures is an electrolyte leak.

I have no idea, what mechanism would be responsible for either.


Since the subject was brought up, a safety reminder.
  • If possible, don’t store harmful substances in what may be confused with a food container.
  • Label, label, label. Label everything. And remove/cover any labels that may suggest different contents.
  • Keep away from creatures, human and non-human, that may have limited capacity to understand their actions. Most notably that means kids, but also yourself being drunk or experiencing low glucose.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2025, 09:00:00 pm by golden_labels »
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Online Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2025, 10:23:07 pm »
Just started the very unscientific experiment.
Two capacitors, similar physical size, one a Rubycon branded 2200μF 50V, the other a Micon branded 120μF 400V both have had capacity, ESR, and maximum voltage, (as a function of rising leakage) checked. I'll  leave both sitting (well contained) in the freezer for a day and see what happens, if not physically, then electrically, and report what happens.

In this instance they have no polarising voltage applied.


Since the subject was brought up, a safety reminder.
  • If possible, don’t store harmful substances in what may be confused with a food container.
  • Label, label, label. Label everything. And remove/cover any labels that may suggest different contents.
  • Keep away from creatures, human and non-human, that may have limited capacity to understand their actions. Most notably that means kids, but also yourself being drunk or experiencing low glucose.

Very sage advice.

X
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #27 on: January 20, 2025, 03:05:31 am »
For the KM series in 160–450 V range Micon claims -25°C, while -40°C for lower voltages of the same model. Let’s see! :)



And here’s a violin plot of what voltages fall in what low temperature groups, for all Vishay’s radial, SMD, and snap-in capacitors.(1) Each series covers a range of voltages and one representative had to be chosen for the series: the left pane uses the highest voltage, the right pane uses the middle point of the range.


The distributions are unworkable with basic tools, so I’ll not even attempt doing a proper analysis. But using my eye suggests that indeed worse temperature ratings are associated with higher voltages.(2)

While it’s possible there is something about the electrolyte or the oxide layer, which produces that effect, there may be other explanations. It may as well be caused by how parts are grouped for marketing purposes.


(1) Except vibration-resistant versions, which duplicate their less sturdy counterparts.
(2) Which does not imply the converse!

Data (CSV):
Code: [Select]
"Format","Series","Voltage min. [V]","Voltage max. [V]","Min. temperature [-°C]"
"Radial","013 RLC",6.3,50.0,40
"Radial","036 RSP",6.3,100.0,55
"Snap-In","090 PUL-SI",25.0,100.0,40
"Snap-In","093 PMG-SI",200.0,450.0,25
"Snap-In","094 PME-SI",200.0,450.0,25
"Radial","116 RLL",6.3,100.0,55
"Radial","136 RVI",10.0,100.0,55
"SMD","139 CLL",6.3,100.0,55
"SMD","140 CRH",6.3,63.0,55
"Radial","140 RTM",6.3,63.0,55
"SMD","142 CVZ",6.3,100.0,55
"Radial","142 RHS",10.0,450.0,40
"SMD","146 CTI",16.0,100.0,55
"Radial","146 RTI",16.0,63.0,55
"Radial","148 RUS",6.3,100.0,40
"SMD","150 CRZ",6.3,63.0,55
"SMD","150 CRZ",80.0,100.0,40
"Radial","150 RMI",10.0,100.0,55
"SMD","152 CME",400.0,450.0,40
"Radial","152 RMH",200.0,450.0,40
"SMD","153 CRV",6.3,100.0,55
"Snap-In","156 PUM-SI",16.0,100.0,40
"Snap-In","157 PUM-SI",200.0,500.0,25
"Snap-In","158 PUL-SI",16.0,100.0,40
"Snap-In","159 PUL-SI",200.0,500.0,25
"SMD","160 CLA",16.0,80.0,55
"Radial","160 RLA",16.0,50.0,55
"Radial","170 RVZ",10.0,63.0,55
"Radial","172 RLX",10.0,50.0,40
"Radial","190 RTL",16.0,50.0,55
"SMD","192 CTX",400.0,400.0,40
"Snap-In","193 PUR-SI",400.0,450.0,40
"Snap-In","193 PUR-SI",500.0,500.0,25
"Snap-In","193 PUR-SI Solar",500.0,570.0,40
"Snap-In","198 PHR",400.0,450.0,25
"Snap-In","256 PMG-SI",16.0,100.0,40
"Snap-In","257 PRM-SI",200.0,450.0,40
"Snap-In","257 PRM-SI",500.0,500.0,25
"Snap-In","259 PHM-SI",200.0,500.0,40
"Snap-In","299 PHL-4TSI",350.0,450.0,40
"Snap-In","299 PHL-4TSI",500.0,600.0,25
"Snap-In","056 PSM-SI",10.0,100.0,40
"Snap-In","057 PSM-SI",200.0,450.0,25
"Snap-In","058 PLL-SI",10.0,100.0,40
"Snap-In","059 PLL-SI",200.0,400.0,25
« Last Edit: January 20, 2025, 03:20:02 am by golden_labels »
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Offline indeterminate

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #28 on: January 20, 2025, 07:44:46 am »
The sancon RE caps that are in a lot of there products are rated to -40c

https://sanconglobal.com/sancon_file/RE.pdf

 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #29 on: January 20, 2025, 08:21:12 am »
Why such a voltage margin??

Well, the product specification does say 100V max open circuit voltage, but end users are notoriously bad at understanding PV system dimensioning, even professionals struggle. It is nearly 100% guaranteed that even if the user does not confuse Vmpp with Voc, they do forget to temperature-compensate the Voc and thus end up with 20% overvoltage at cold temperatures; so it's a very good idea to design the charge controller such that it deals with 120V on its input without blowing up. And with 100V capacitors that would be marginal. 125V rating is not that widely available so that leaves 160V. Another question is, of course, if the MOSFETs can survive 120V or so.
 

Offline cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #30 on: January 20, 2025, 09:03:58 am »
Exactly, It is why I mentioned that 4x18Vmpp serial would not fit on a 75V model.
And even on a 100V model 4x18Vmpp would be close, it would only work because I trust Victron to over dimension.

But I also stuck to 2x2 to stay under the 50V, often seen as the limit for "safe voltage" for life and limb.
I mean, that roof keeps opening and closing and vibrating and jostling, and those wires go right next by my pillow.
 

Online Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #31 on: January 20, 2025, 09:00:21 pm »
Ok.
Just to report back with the freezer test.

When the container with the two capacitors was removed from the freezer the temperature was an indicated –21°C.

Neither the 2200μF 50V Rubycon or the 120μF 400V Micon showed any sign of physical distress.

A retest of both was carried out immediately whilst still cold.

With the Rubycon, there was no discernable difference from it's pre frozen test.

The Micon had changed slightly, the capacitance had dropped from it's initial value of 118μF to 110μF and the ESR had risen from 0.12Ω to 0.2Ω.

The instrument I used was a Peak Atlas ESR70 and current limited bench psu for working voltage and leakage checks.

I will say on the back of that, the likelihood is that the failed capacitor cybermaus had, was just a coincidence, probably a bad component in the first place.

I hope the manufacturer does the decent thing and offer to replace the unit.

Regards.
X
 
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Online Zero999

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #32 on: January 20, 2025, 09:41:30 pm »
I heard about cheap capacitors failing because they didn't use antifreeze.

Obviously don't drink ethylene glycol, but tiny amounts won't do any harm. Oxalic acid is toxic in large quantities, but can be found in small concentrations in many edible plants such as parsley, spinach and Brussels sprouts.

It's quite cold in parts of America perhaps someone can build an oscillator with a capacitor and see if it works outside in the cold.
 

Offline cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2025, 06:49:42 am »
The Micon had changed slightly, the capacitance had dropped from it's initial value of 118μF to 110μF and the ESR had risen from 0.12Ω to 0.2Ω.
Thanks

It would (anecdotally) match the suggestion higher voltage ratings have less cold resistance.
Did the values return after warming to room temp?
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2025, 07:46:14 am »
I warned against making that conclusion!

In this thread we try to find the explanation. So I believe it’s fine to have observations. But they are merely hints. :D

The data shows: worse temperature rating ⇒ higher voltage. An implication can’t be flipped. “Higher voltage ⇒ worse temperature rating” is a different thing. Being even less formal: if we have a -25°C rated capacitor in hand, it’s very likely to be a high voltage one. But if we take a high voltage capacitor, it’s not neccessarily true, that there are overwhelming chances for it to be rated to -25°C only.

Perhaps it is like that and it may be a good lead to check. But for that it would be good to have somebody with knowledge about capacitor electrolytes. Or with experience in using capacitors in various environments.

I considered repeating Xena’s experiment, but my freezer only goes to 11.

edit
To show in pictures, how flipping that implication fails, here’s a table. It shows exactly the same thing as the chart, just grouping capacitors into “>100 V” and “≤100 V” bins:(1)
Code: [Select]
     | 25  40  55
-----+------------
>100 | 10   9
≤100 |     10  16
We may agree 10 isn’t overwhelmingly larger than 9. :)


(1) Upper voltage range. 100 V chosen, because it’s where the lower cluster ends.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 08:29:06 am by golden_labels »
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Online Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2025, 08:24:47 am »
The Micon had changed slightly, the capacitance had dropped from it's initial value of 118μF to 110μF and the ESR had risen from 0.12Ω to 0.2Ω.
Thanks

It would (anecdotally) match the suggestion higher voltage ratings have less cold resistance.
Did the values return after warming to room temp?

Room temperature (18°C) The Micon is now showing 117μF 0.13 ESR.
 

Offline cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2025, 08:50:56 am »
So I believe it’s fine to have observations. But they are merely hints. :D
Which is what I tried to convey with the words "anecdotal" and "suggestion"?
 

Offline golden_labels

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2025, 01:06:25 pm »
Ok, I misunderstood. :) I just wanted to be clear and this is something to very easly get wrong.
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Offline mzzj

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2025, 02:15:24 pm »
Probably failed already  earlier and you just happen to notice the burst caps later on.
Never seen or heard of electrolytics bursting in freezing temps but seen and replaced hundreds of burst capacitors because of exessive ripple current, overvoltage, low quality and heat.
 
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Online coppice

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2025, 02:24:56 pm »
In this thread we try to find the explanation. So I believe it’s fine to have observations. But they are merely hints. :D
Methodial measurements are observations. Perhaps you mean anecdotes. You need anecdotes. Most thorough investigations begin with an anecdote that says something interesting may be going on.

 

Offline cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #40 on: January 21, 2025, 02:34:06 pm »
Probably failed already  earlier and you just happen to notice the burst caps later on.
Such seems to be the emerging consensus, thanks all.

Still weird. Outside of the question asked in this post (can they freeze: No, not really) there was nothing else. No sun or hot temps. Very small voltages and currents. And most importantly, no tinkering of any kind, it was working stable for a year and untouched. Lets face it, the biggest risk to DIY power electronics is mistakes during construction and/or skipping the fuses "for now" (I did fuse it though, on both ends)

Victron (or at least their front-end seller) is requesting the device to be send in.
With a explicit nice threat of research cost if they judge no product fault. I am a bit disappointed about that.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2025, 08:21:23 pm by cybermaus »
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #41 on: January 22, 2025, 11:19:35 am »
Probably failed already  earlier and you just happen to notice the burst caps later on.
Never seen or heard of electrolytics bursting in freezing temps but seen and replaced hundreds of burst capacitors because of exessive ripple current, overvoltage, low quality and heat.

Yeah, like:

Earlier problems (excess ripple current or QC issue on capacitor itself) leading to rise in ESR;
Cold temperature (temporarily, in a reversible way) increases ESR as well;
Combination thereof makes the failure become apparent.
 

Online Siwastaja

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #42 on: January 22, 2025, 11:21:52 am »
Victron (or at least their front-end seller) is requesting the device to be send in.
With a explicit nice threat of research cost if they judge no product fault. I am a bit disappointed about that.

What a weird way to do business. Send it in; don't sign any contract, so that they have no grounds to bill you.
 
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Offline Geoff-AU

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #43 on: January 23, 2025, 10:00:17 pm »
Victron (or at least their front-end seller) is requesting the device to be send in.
That's good!  They should be interested in a failure like that.

Quote
With a explicit nice threat of research cost if they judge no product fault. I am a bit disappointed about that.
That's bad....

Let's hope it's a standard/boilerplate threat, I'm sure people send in items that have suffered abuse all the time.  Keep us updated on Victron's findings.
 

Offline cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #44 on: February 13, 2025, 01:52:49 pm »
Following up:

Victron did honor warranty with no further fuzz (or info or remarks) and send a new device

They were a bit brave with the mail, sending the new device in its retail box, without overbox of any kind. Literally the address sticker on the blue retail box and in the mail.
But no damage whatsoever, not even to the box, so I guess its good for the environment that way, no unneeded packaging material.
 

Offline DenzilPenberthy

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #45 on: February 13, 2025, 04:15:12 pm »
Victron (or at least their front-end seller) is requesting the device to be send in.
That's good!  They should be interested in a failure like that.

Quote
With a explicit nice threat of research cost if they judge no product fault. I am a bit disappointed about that.
That's bad....

Let's hope it's a standard/boilerplate threat, I'm sure people send in items that have suffered abuse all the time.  Keep us updated on Victron's findings.

Yeah that's very standard.  I've worked investigating product returns before and you wouldn't believe the amount of very obviously broken by the user things that people try and return as faulty.

I used to work at a place that makes electronic things that fit into machine tool spindles. They have a max RPM that's permitted. Many get reyurned as "I don't know what happened, it just stopped working, it must be a fault with your product". Open it up and all of the PCBs are torn to pieces and smooshed up againt the outside of the unit. "Hmmm, are you sure you didn't spin this up to 20k RPM by mistake Mr User? Really?"

A friend of mine sat on a barbeque in a pretty much new wetsuit and tried to return it as "I don't know what happened, the neoprene just started to spontaneously degrade". They clearly knew he was taking the piss because it was very obviously burned but they still replaced it.

This goes 10 times over for the lower end Victron stuff which is often bought and installed by DIYers who connect with wrong polarity or overvolt the PV inputs etc etc.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2025, 04:19:11 pm by DenzilPenberthy »
 

Online Xena E

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #46 on: February 13, 2025, 05:09:16 pm »
Following up:

Victron did honor warranty with no further fuzz (or info or remarks) and send a new device

They were a bit brave with the mail, sending the new device in its retail box, without overbox of any kind. Literally the address sticker on the blue retail box and in the mail.
But no damage whatsoever, not even to the box, so I guess its good for the environment that way, no unneeded packaging material.

Thats a good result for you, and good to know theyre still a decent company to deal with, thanks for letting us know.
 :-+
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #47 on: February 13, 2025, 07:35:48 pm »
One thing to note is that at night time, under calm weather conditions, when the sky is clear, the temperature of surfaces can be much lower than the air temperature, especially when they're exposed to the cold night's sky. It might be -20oC, but the temperature of your inverter might be much lower.
 

Offline BillyO

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #48 on: February 14, 2025, 01:04:17 am »
Not sure. I did not open the device as yet, as I am awaiting warranty judgement..

Just out of interest, if you have not opened the device then:

A) How do you know it was a capacitor?

B) How did you access to the leaked "juice"?

 :popcorn:

Glad to hear it got sorted out.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
--------------------------------------------------
 

Offline cybermausTopic starter

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Re: Can electrolytic capacitors freeze and burst?
« Reply #49 on: February 14, 2025, 05:53:28 am »
Well, as per first post ".... few drops of electrolyte still seen dripping out when I dismounted it and held it at angles. And yes, it is electrolyte, not water. Horrible smell, even worse taste (I should not have tasted that)"

Also, as per image later-on, I have seen inside another same device. There are 6 large capacitors.
I would really have ben interested in knowing if it was just one, or more that had gone.

But alas, Victron simply send me a new device with no fuss. Which is good, but I really would have liked to see the inside.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2025, 05:57:14 am by cybermaus »
 


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