Choosing the right PCB software - Problems with Eagle

[skymoco]

I feel like this is one of those lifetime decisions, what PCB CAD software to invest my time learning.   I started out with Eagle and am fairly frustrated.

I picked a pretty simple timer circuit using a 74LS14.   The GND and VCC pins didn't show up until I "invoked" them and now they are there but don't show up on the board.    Am I really doing stuff wrong?   Attached is my eagle file.

Is this just typical learning curve stuff or should I be looking at other packages?   My end goal is to prototype pretty simple circuits and have a PCB's made.   Mostly arduinio based, but other programmable chips as well.

[liquibyte]

They're on the board, pin 7 and pin 14.  You don't have anything connected to pin 14 on the board because you just have VCC in the schematic.  Try putting a header or jack in the schematic hooked to GND and VCC and you'll see what I mean.

[John Coloccia]

Once you try DipTrace, you'll never go back to Eagle.

[liquibyte]

I tried Diptrace and hated it.  No native linux support, just wine.

[rfbroadband]

I feel like this is one of those lifetime decisions, what PCB CAD software to invest my time learning.   I started out with Eagle and am fairly frustrated.

I picked a pretty simple timer circuit using a 74LS14.   The GND and VCC pins didn't show up until I "invoked" them and now they are there but don't show up on the board.    Am I really doing stuff wrong?   Attached is my eagle file.

Is this just typical learning curve stuff or should I be looking at other packages?   My end goal is to prototype pretty simple circuits and have a PCB's made.   Mostly arduinio based, but other programmable chips as well.

you are still on a leaning curve...design a few PCBs with Eagle, get to the point where you face real limitations of the tools and then you can decide whether you should upgrade to a higher end tool. Just be aware that one can easily send a few thousand dollars on these tools and therefore most hobbyist's figure out a way to live with the limitations of a cost efficient PCB tool.

[Legion]

I'm in the same situation, trying to find the right CAD software. While Eagle is really popular, it's not the most intuitive software. I only lasted for 10 minutes before I started looking for something better. As some of the other posters have mentioned you might want to try DipTrace. I found it much easier to use. I started using Altium about a week ago and so far I like it the best. I'll need some more time with it to be sure.

What I find useful is to try a tutorial that takes you through a complete workflow. This way you get an overview of the application and see if you like the UI / usage model. It's better to spend some extra time evaluating programs now than to get heavily invested in a particular platform and have to restart.

[John Coloccia]

Isn't Altium over $7000?  Diptrace Starter is $75.  So far, that's been enough for everything I've had to do for my business.  That's for 300 pins and 2 signal layers.  Even the full version is well under $1000, but the "Standard" version is 1000 pins and 4 layers at $345, and that should cover most anything a hobbyist will do.

I really do wonder why Eagle is so popular.  The interface is really pretty lousy...very clunky.  One thing about DipTrace, though, is I generally don't like their included components.  I have my own library that I've built with all of my own components.  As I need something, I simply build it in their component/pattern editor.  It's so easy to do it that it's really just a minor distraction.  I build 3 or 4 components yesterday alone, on the fly....a few connectors and a 3PDT switch.  Often times I just save their included component to my library (just right click on the component and choose save to library), and then I modify it to fix it.  This is usually just a matter of fixing the pad/hole sizes, and you only have to fix one because it will propagate it to all the pads in the part unless you tell it not to.  Very simple.  To build from scratch, there are enough standard pin layouts that it's usually just a matter of specifying the pin spacing and the number of pins.  Then draw a rectangle around it the size of the component, and done.  I can usually make a new component from scratch in about 5 minutes, believe it or not.

Manual PCB routing is far and away better in DipTrace (and who uses the autorouter anyway?).  Editing traces in DipTrace is trivial.  In Eagle, you may as well just delete the trace and start over.

[gbyleveldt]

I've been using Eagle for 8 years and now moving (slowly) over to Diptrace. I think that qualifies me to make comments on how lousy Eagle is.

[skymoco]

They're on the board, pin 7 and pin 14.  You don't have anything connected to pin 14 on the board because you just have VCC in the schematic.  Try putting a header or jack in the schematic hooked to GND and VCC and you'll see what I mean.

Ah, that worked and makes sense.   I think I am getting the hang of it, slowly.    I want to cheat and just ask how to make a this a single sided board that I can cut out with my CNC mill.  This is certainly one helpful board fits well with Dave's outgoing style but I don't want to take too much advantage of it.

[liquibyte]

Edit:  Was playing a bit.  How's this?

[skymoco]

That's pretty good.   I did the similar but also added GND and output.

How did you get the jpeg?   Is this just a screen print or is there something I don't know about?

[liquibyte]

That's pretty good.   I did the similar but also added GND and output.

How did you get the jpeg?   Is this just a screen print or is there something I don't know about?

File > Export > Image

Schematic will also do this.  It defaults to 150 dpi, I chose 600 dpi for this image.  People like to bitch about Eagle and claim that other products are better but once you figure out how to use it, it's fairly easy if non-intuitive.  The only issue I really have is the library management, it's a pain in the ass.

[skymoco]

Yea, seems like a lot of things.  If you use them long enough you figure out the quirks.

I seem to do a lot of deleting connecting and reconnecting components.  It would be cool if Eagle somehow told you that it's making a connection.   This is one of those things I bet will get more intuitive over time.

The libraries drive me crazy as well.  But, then there are a lot of third party libraries out there so that's a good thing.

[liquibyte]

The libraries drive me crazy as well.  But, then there are a lot of third party libraries out there so that's a good thing.

Just make sure to check the footprints against the actual part datasheet.  I recently ran into a problem where the collector and emitter were reversed in a footprint from the actual part.  Also, the terminal block in the board I did had pin holes that were far too large for the pins and keeping it aligned while soldering was a pain.  I learned the hard way to always check and measure first.

[skymoco]

I have another general question about best practice board design in general.   I have a number of pins all tied to ground and when I use the autorouter it runs them from one to the other.   Isn't it better to have a ground bus and have everything tied in at one point?

Is that what the "Bus" line is for?

[liquibyte]

Just use the name tool on the net from the schematic side.  In other words, right click each net line that's tied to ground in the schematic and click name and put GND in the box.  This is how people do schematics with multiple sheets.

[skymoco]

Getting closer, but I found another learning opportunity.    I choose a 4 pin header and left pin #4 unconnected.   The board has pin 4 connected to ground and a odd trace coming from R2.   Neither of which I can seem to get rid of.

[liquibyte]

Right click the odd trace in the board view and select Ripup.  That will get rid of that.  Not sure why you have pin 4 connected on the board when it's not connected in the schematic.  If you haven't solved that, can you attach it?

[Monkeh]

Once you try DipTrace, you'll never go back to Eagle.

You say that, and I came running back.

[scientist]

Once you learn KiCAD in its entirety you'll never go back (to Eagle).

[liquibyte]

Once you learn KiCAD in its entirety you'll never go back (to Eagle).

If you can even get it to work without crashing.

[skymoco]

Right click the odd trace in the board view and select Ripup.  That will get rid of that.  Not sure why you have pin 4 connected on the board when it's not connected in the schematic.  If you haven't solved that, can you attach it?

RipUP fixed it.

I think I had better watch the rest of the tutorials before I post any more questions.     Unless you want to quickly tell me how to make a one sided board....

[liquibyte]

Any red trace is top layer.  You can right click on a trace and choose the layer in the dialog box.  You'll have to do this for each section, bend to bend.  If you're autorouting, you can set Top to N/A and bottom to * and it will only route on the bottom.  A good trick for autorouting is to leave the default board dimension alone and put all of the components in the center and let the traces have more room around the outside.  This is especially useful if you're trying to autoroute a single layer board.

[Hideki]

A better trick for autorouting is not to use autorouting. Even more so if you're a beginner.

[liquibyte]

A better trick for autorouting is not to use autorouting. Even more so if you're a beginner.

But if he doesn't learn its limitations, he won't learn why not to use it.  I started out with the autorouter and ended up learning that it's almost always better to manually route traces.