Author Topic: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!  (Read 16065 times)

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Offline madires

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2014, 11:28:32 am »
Finder Relays.

I remember doing a project for a large machinery OEM, the prototypes used OKO brand relays which I believe are Anglia components own brand, made in China. One of the OEM engineers questioned the reliability of the OKO relay based on the fact that it was Chinese and asked me to use Finder as these were used in their control panels.
Not wanting to rock the boat I specified the more expensive Finder (despite never having a single issue with OKO myself). Barely 1 week after production began I got a phone call about an intermittent fault on a machine, sure enough a simple "tap tap" on the relay and the machine starts, similar problems cropped up throughout that batch.

Have you selected the correct relay for your application? There are several different alloys used for contacts, optimized for specific applications. Have you also considered a snubber or whatever for inductive loads? I can't recall any major issue with Finder relays during the last 25 years.
 

Offline Asad

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2014, 01:23:25 pm »
Some posts above referred to Maxim having issues. What's the issue with Maxim?
 

Offline Tandy

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2014, 01:29:00 pm »
Some posts above referred to Maxim having issues. What's the issue with Maxim?

Availability, it is no good having a part in your design that you can't get hold of when you need to run a production.
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Offline Bored@Work

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2014, 03:12:23 pm »
Some posts above referred to Maxim having issues. What's the issue with Maxim?

Availability.

Many nice ICs - on paper and you can even get samples. But when you want to buy you find out you can't. And then suddenly Maxim declares them obsolete. I once had the feeling the only IC they really had in production and you could buy was the MAX232, one of their oldest ICs. Everything else was a gamble.

Some years ago they claimed they had fixed their supply issues. I didn't see a change.
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Boltar

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2014, 07:44:04 pm »
With regard to eBay, I've found that if you steer clear of the sellers with incomplete or vague listings and go with the ones who supply the most information in the listing, you usually get decent stuff (not always but mostly). I've seen some nightmare listings when searching for top-ups on eBay, no part numbers/manufacturers/dimensions/links to datasheets etc... My own personal view is that the more effort they've put into listing their stuff, the more likely they are to be a trustworthy seller. I mostly get my stuff from Farnell. I'm only in to £20-£30 per order area, but I've never had an issue with them other than errors in the occasional listing but there's always a datasheet for everything to double check.
 

Offline Dago

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2014, 04:29:14 am »
I've heard  the rule to avoid the three M. Microchip, Maxim and Micrel, all known for bad availability apparently.

I personally don't have that much experience except that I DID get burned by a Microchip step-down converter chip that has had pretty bad availability almost constantly.

For electrolytic caps I usually use Panasonic, Nichicon, Rubycon or Chemicon (but not Kemet or Multicomp or any of that crap).
You are joking right?
Maxim,    yes, Micrel , don't  know, but Microchip have always had the  best availablilty in the industry.

Like I said, I do not have much experience with those manufacturers, this was just a "rule" I heard from our subcontractor and I mentioned it to our assembly house and they concurred :)

As for Kemet I might be wrong, I've always avoided it because when people ask for a proper electrolytic cap brand it never gets mentioned (usually everyone says Panasonic/Rubycon/Chemi-con) so I've avoided it.
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Offline Asad

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2014, 06:42:03 am »
Unless explicitly specified for usage, I avoid Murata ceramic caps. I had a bad case of wrong values shipped from Farnell and despite getting replacements twice, the values were off significantly from the one specified in datasheet and product packaging. I had to stack two to get the specified value for prototyping and swore off them since. I don't know at which place the QC/supply chain broke down on that one but now, I stick exclusively to Yageo, Kemet and AVX for ceramic caps depending on application and values required.
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2014, 07:54:03 am »
Finder Relays.

I remember doing a project for a large machinery OEM, the prototypes used OKO brand relays which I believe are Anglia components own brand, made in China. One of the OEM engineers questioned the reliability of the OKO relay based on the fact that it was Chinese and asked me to use Finder as these were used in their control panels.
Not wanting to rock the boat I specified the more expensive Finder (despite never having a single issue with OKO myself). Barely 1 week after production began I got a phone call about an intermittent fault on a machine, sure enough a simple "tap tap" on the relay and the machine starts, similar problems cropped up throughout that batch.

Have you selected the correct relay for your application? There are several different alloys used for contacts, optimized for specific applications. Have you also considered a snubber or whatever for inductive loads? I can't recall any major issue with Finder relays during the last 25 years.

16A relay switching a 1A solenoid (fully regulated supply with suppression and reverse diode fitted, they just couldn't stand any vibration). This problem happened with no load applied as well and after barely a few hours of operation.
Also there may be bias as they are such a popular relay but I've seen loads of Finders in our repair shop on various equipment, the contacts seem to be a really weak point. The good thing about them is that they have clear covers so you can easily see the black mess that were the contacts.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2014, 07:58:30 am »
With regard to eBay, I've found that if you steer clear of the sellers with incomplete or vague listings and go with the ones who supply the most information in the listing, you usually get decent stuff (not always but mostly). I've seen some nightmare listings when searching for top-ups on eBay, no part numbers/manufacturers/dimensions/links to datasheets etc... My own personal view is that the more effort they've put into listing their stuff, the more likely they are to be a trustworthy seller. I mostly get my stuff from Farnell. I'm only in to £20-£30 per order area, but I've never had an issue with them other than errors in the occasional listing but there's always a datasheet for everything to double check.

Farnell consistently make mistakes in their listings as i commented earlier and I don't mean occasionally, it's that bad that for niche stuff I can't use them as I don't have the time to waste in doing their job for them. When I complained i was told that the information was "old and historic".

I take your point about datasheets and specs on ebay listings, I probably need to revisit many of mine but ebay don't make life easy, I have tended to assume that if you come looking for an IRL540N you already know what it is and what it does. There is one seller that "drop ships" from farnell and just copies their specs, which means that will often also be wrong and contradictory or repeat the same spec under different headings.
 

Boltar

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2014, 09:31:21 am »
Farnell consistently make mistakes in their listings as i commented earlier and I don't mean occasionally, it's that bad that for niche stuff I can't use them as I don't have the time to waste in doing their job for them. When I complained i was told that the information was "old and historic".

I take your point about datasheets and specs on ebay listings, I probably need to revisit many of mine but ebay don't make life easy, I have tended to assume that if you come looking for an IRL540N you already know what it is and what it does. There is one seller that "drop ships" from farnell and just copies their specs, which means that will often also be wrong and contradictory or repeat the same spec under different headings.
Noted, I have a great deal more time to ponder the parts I want as I'm only hobby level. I guess I've only noticed occasional listing errors at Farnell because I've only really looked for a tiny fraction of parts from their inventory. With eBay specific parts, like a IRL540N, I see what you mean about people knowing what that is, so a listing need not be detailed, in many cases, so long as they actually supply a part number or model number, the part can at least be looked up. It is however, extremely handy to eBay buyers if the seller can put as much info into the listing (and in the title too if possible). For a basic example, if I type "N Mosfet" into the eBay search bar and I get a list of parts, I'm much more likely to click one that has a current rating in the title if that's the base property of the fet I'm looking for.
 

Offline Simon

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2014, 09:53:28 am »
For many general parts yes the errors farnell make may not be a problem although I have found some very basic and damaging ones like incorrect current and voltage ratings. i looked up the microchip MCP9701 temp sensors to find them listed as +/- 1C whereas i was pretty certain that they are +/-2C as I'd used them before hence i went looking for them. Naturally the datasheet said +/-2C and they got an ill tempered report from me as the error was big the the information plainly and clearly on the first page of the datasheet.

When I'm looking for very specific characteristics for my employer I can't afford the time to sift through the datasheets to confirm farnell's listing specs.

Yes on ebay I tend to list main specs, with datasheet links it's so easy for them to change and break links and to host them myself and link to which I have done on some stuff is very time consuming as it's a very manual process. Ebay still think big pictures are all that count and explaining to them that I could leave out the picture and put TO220 or TO92 and it would be just as good is a waste of time.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2014, 10:01:41 am »
16A relay switching a 1A solenoid (fully regulated supply with suppression and reverse diode fitted, they just couldn't stand any vibration). This problem happened with no load applied as well and after barely a few hours of operation.

Finder specifies vibration resistance and also shock resistance in the datasheets (please see http://www.finder-relais.net/en/Finder-general-technical-information-en.pdf for the definitions).
 

Offline bookaboo

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2014, 10:38:41 am »
16A relay switching a 1A solenoid (fully regulated supply with suppression and reverse diode fitted, they just couldn't stand any vibration). This problem happened with no load applied as well and after barely a few hours of operation.

Finder specifies vibration resistance and also shock resistance in the datasheets (please see http://www.finder-relais.net/en/Finder-general-technical-information-en.pdf for the definitions).

I'm not a mechanical engineer so I won't be able to translate vibration specifications into real world scenarios. In this situation I just have to go by cold hard experience.
It may well be that Finders are designed to sit in a nice dry environment (i.e. an AC control panel) and not in the mobile machinery I design for. All I know is my little OKOK4BC12 relays have been in Sudanese deserts, outback Australia and Siberia for years without issue while in this case the more expensive Finder cousins couldn't make it out of the factory yard.

ymmv :)
 

Offline madires

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #38 on: October 20, 2014, 11:43:36 am »
I'm not a mechanical engineer so I won't be able to translate vibration specifications into real world scenarios. In this situation I just have to go by cold hard experience.
It may well be that Finders are designed to sit in a nice dry environment (i.e. an AC control panel) and not in the mobile machinery I design for. All I know is my little OKOK4BC12 relays have been in Sudanese deserts, outback Australia and Siberia for years without issue while in this case the more expensive Finder cousins couldn't make it out of the factory yard.

In that case I'd have looked for automotive relays or SSRs. AFAIK, Finder doesn't produce any automotive relays but they got SSRs. For automotive relays I'd recommend Fujitsu, Omron or Panasonic.
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2014, 06:32:44 pm »
Beware of fake Omron relays, there are a lot of them out there.

ABB relays are good, but bleeding expensive, but will last pretty much forever or until you overload them by 1000% for a thousand cycles, or until they mechanically fall apart.Smallest they do is a 4 pole 16A one though, with industrial coil voltages, and low power is 6W coils.

I replace them with Omron ones in plug in styles, as then it is easy to replace it every 2 years, but only for those which failed after 40 years of operation, and have over 100 million cycles on them. With us the machine does about a million cycles a year, but the previous owner ran it at 10 times the speed 24/7/365 for 20 years before they bought a new one and sold it to us. Only failures were relays that wore out mechanically, with cores that wore into T shapes, and contacts where they physically broke or the springs broke. I bought some years ago for $5, about half way through them now, replacing those that are not available in a plug in style with them.
 

Offline XFDDesign

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Re: Component Manufacturers that you should stay away from!
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2014, 07:21:07 pm »
eBay

With eBay, you're in an essentially laissez faire market. This means the onus is on you, the buyer, to understand both what you want, and what you have a reasonable expectation of paying for a given product. As a buyer, it is not a very good avenue for the complete novice who doesn't understand the difference between a resistor and a piece of wire, mainly for the reason that they are looking for keywords or buzzwords that align with what they think they need.

"Don't buy from china," - the second hand Rubidium Standards almost exclusively ship from China, and are recycled. As a buyer who knows, it's a hedging of bets. Do they have good reputations from others who bought the same product? Is the price within range of the other market offerings? It's a good bet, but not a guaranteed bet. Is the risk vs. reward at (now) $200 a pop worth it? Semiconductors - same thing. Do they source high volumes of specific parts, or is it a complete hodge-podge of random parts? "Everything from China is black market!" - One of the biggest "games" played by Chinese ODMs is to use a lead customer's bill of materials to get pricing down, lump in a particular part with other customers, and get even higher volume pricing to improve their margin. If their lead customer is buying 250k pieces, and their second-through-fourth customers are buying 100k pieces each for a total of 550k pieces, they may push the part supplier to sell their $0.10 LDO at 500kpieces, to sell them at $0.05 at a 750k pc order, while charging their own customers $0.15/ea. They then turn around and resell the difference in stock (200k pc) for $0.25 each, while you and I would pay $1 from Mouser. If they sell all 200k pieces, they've made $40k for what is essentially consolidating initial orders.

What usually comes up, is that a newbie sees "74 series logic grab bag: 250 pieces" for $50, buys it, and most of them are dead because they're either factory floor sweepings, re-worked part pulls from recycling, or some other bottom-of-the-barrel operation that might have paid $1 for all the scrap. The experienced buyer sees that they don't have any particular rhyme or reason behind what they sell; and it all appears to be scrap. They know to stay away.

Manufacturers

It depends.

Almost every engineer will have a handful of companies on their own blacklist. You will often find that many of them are highly reputable companies, too. At some point, the designer will have chosen to use a brand's part, either it looked good, or worked well in early prototypes, or something along those lines. Then some timed event, either come purchasing, production, or long after its been in the field, there is some failure. Sometimes they didn't read the datasheet and missed something. Sometimes the silicon lot has a terrible defect in it and an entire lot snuck by probe or test because of an idiotic hardware fault. Sometimes there is a design oversight  and the part is put into a particularly stressed condition. Whatever it is, this part is now a problem for the engineer and it comes down to the experience they have with the vendor as they work to resolve it. If the vendor is good, and they get it fixed, they react one way. If the vendor is good, and they cannot fix it, they react another. If the vendor ignores them because they're a Tier 3 or some other name of a small guy, and they get no where on useless forums or similar places, they feel scorned and never use another part from that vendor. Monetary impact has a huge role in it, too.

In a recent design I did, I needed a simple buck-mode switcher. I used a part from a company with 3 letters abbreviation, used their calculator tool, got some numbers, and did a prototype. It essentially smoked. It "powered up" to 1.02V unloaded, and nothing under load and the part got very hot (eventually reflowing its own solder). Everything within the calculator's specs, and same parts as it commanded. Nothing. I could have monkeyed with it for ages, but I decided to discard the supply, verify everything else (which worked just fine) and did a redesign with another switcher made by another 3-letter-abbreviated company who happens to make a popular spice tool. Boom, another turn of prototype PCBs, which included a few minor changes to the design in addition to this new Switcher.

Nothing.

It would not power up at all. All of the nodes had the right supplies. Everything matched the datasheet (canned circuit right off of page 1). Just... nothing. I shot this company a tech support inquiry on their webpage and on their twitter. After 3 days, nothing. I moved on to another popular vendor, who only has two initials. The lowest cost solution of them all. The fewest parts of them all, too. I simply take a hit for inductor size (lower switching freq) and lower input rail (18V instead of 20 or 24V). A third round of boards. Power it up... and...

It works. Perfectly.

So now I personally have a preferred vendor of switching supplies, because of whom I had success with. I will then bet you that I can find an engineer who had the exact opposite experience I had, and exclusively uses another vendor. But note, I don't automatically exclude all of the parts made by other companies; but specific lines of products which seem to have inferior support models.

It'll be the same thing with passives, and discretes.

The fundamental value you get with a distributor like Mouser or Digikey, is that if a part fails its advertised claim, you can call them up and they'll ship you a replacement, and likely chase down the manufacturer to deal with the bad material.
 


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