crying Newbie

[ogden]

Calgonit contains Sodium citrate and Carbonic acid. It's pH is 10. If he would wrote in the book that jumping off the cliff is good for your PCB's - you would do that? Sometimes you shall use your head or just check what electronics industry is actually doing.

Hmm. Who to believe, a dead jolly old man, quick to help, with a worldwide reputation in electronics, called on to consult by all sorts of people or a grumpy old man with a reputation for being acerbic and ungrammatical on electronics fora? Hmmm, so difficult to decide.

Getting personal, huh? Do you know that not everybody speak native english as you? 

[edit] Maybe you just did not find your forum yet? What about this one? https://www.writingforums.org/

Na, not really. I'd side with old Bob. Especially as he used to take stuff from his dishwasher and actually measure it in rigs where he was looking to detect femtoamp level leakage currents. Like here. Kind of suggests it works, doesn't it?

Well, that article does not even contain words "water" or "washing". All I find is talk about DIP packages  "Very good way" to learn how to wash modern electronics using pressure washer, tap water and Calgonit. You shall give your hotline number so forum readers can seek for help or get contacts of your lawyer [kidding].

Electronics and materials are changed. You cannot say blanket statement anymore "any tap water is good for electronics" just because for Bob Pease it worked. One of problems is that most PCB's today are manufactured with no-clean flux and they are never washed after soldering. That flux, ready to soak every salt that comes near it, is still there on the board. Second obvious problem - small pitch components, especially BGA's.

There's similar discussion, BTW Tektronix practice is mentioned as well:

http://www.circuitinsight.com/programs/50605.html

Article:

https://www.embeddedarm.com/blog/deionized-water-the-gold-standard-for-electronics-cleaning/

[edit] Excerpt from original good wash for your oscilloscope:

I spoke about this with a chemical engineer and he said the crux is the water and the detergent. The water should be the purest you can get, meaning demineralized, deionized, osmosis-treated, i.e. the stuff that does not conduct electricity! Professional window cleaners sell it by the gallon. The detergent should be mild and guaranteed to not leave deposits.

[JohnPen]

Back in the seventy's I used hot water and fairy liquid to clean off an old style TV pcb which had been leaked all over by a failing electrolytic capacitor.  The manufacturer for some reason had mounted the capacitor upside down on the chassis frame so that any leak automatically covered the board below it.  The fault had been a rolling picture and the electrolyte had formed a resistive path across the surface of the pcb.  The hot water plus mild detergent treatment cured the problem.  Without knowing how wet the instrument gear got inside or whether anything other than water added itself and how long it remained waterlogged it is difficult to recommend much.  If the enclosed test gear still meets it's self calibration and has been dried out thoroughly, warm or hot area,  for a couple of days it should be OK.  Any easily accessible items using hot water and a mild detergent should be OK BUT make sure the items are thoroughly dry before powering them up again.  Maybe a few days after the wash and brush up.

[dmills]

Usually the real gotcha with this stuff is pots and switches, sometimes connectors, they tend to go intermittent when all the lubrication has been washed out and replaced with mud.

The other 'fun' is high impedance nodes in things like scope front ends, and especially electrometer front ends (Like say condenser mic front end amps), it takes remarkably little when dealing with 10GOhms in parallel with 30pF to spoil your day.

That said, I have done the dishwasher thing, on a modern board (Known to be built with water washable flux), and followed up by DI water and alcohol, and it was fine. The Dishwasher (No Calgone!) dealt with most of the flux and the DI water rinse got the dissolved solids.  There were however no switches or pots on that board.

Regards, Dan.

[ogden]

Back in the seventy's I used hot water and fairy liquid to clean off an old style TV pcb which had been leaked all over by a failing electrolytic capacitor.  The manufacturer for some reason had mounted the capacitor upside down on the chassis frame so that any leak automatically covered the board below it.  The fault had been a rolling picture and the electrolyte had formed a resistive path across the surface of the pcb.  The hot water plus mild detergent treatment cured the problem.  Without knowing how wet the instrument gear got inside or whether anything other than water added itself and how long it remained waterlogged it is difficult to recommend much.  If the enclosed test gear still meets it's self calibration and has been dried out thoroughly, warm or hot area,  for a couple of days it should be OK.  Any easily accessible items using hot water and a mild detergent should be OK BUT make sure the items are thoroughly dry before powering them up again.  Maybe a few days after the wash and brush up.

Right. Try the same with RF boards of modern spectrum analyzer, results will differ for sure I washed PCB in kitchen sink as well, but it does not mean that it can be done with any board. You shall understand what you are doing.

Seems, that some trolls one particular troll in this forum just have pathological drive to insult others by all means disregarding facts that disprove their his position.

[uc]

Dear all thanks for your support.
Some feedback for you guys,
I have not power up my equipment, agin, as your advice.
I have contact my insuring company and that road could be another chapter.
But I have open up the FLUKE  79iii and clean the board with alcohol. I did find some deposit that must be old and not related to my water problem. Now it works fine. I learn a lot 
I am “chicken out” to do the same action with my RIGOL DS1054X.
And especial the more sensitive SIGLENT SDM3065X, refer to our Mr. tautech commet.
I think I will await the reply from my insurance company.
Take care.
//uc

[Mr. Scram]

Dear all thanks for your support.
Some feedback for you guys,
I have not power up my equipment, agin, as your advice.
I have contact my insuring company and that road could be another chapter.
But I have open up the FLUKE  79iii and clean the board with alcohol. I did find some deposit that must be old and not related to my water problem. Now it works fine. I learn a lot 
I am “chicken out” to do the same action with my RIGOL DS1054X.
And especial the more sensitive SIGLENT SDM3065X, refer to our Mr. tautech commet.
I think I will await the reply from my insurance company.
Take care.
//uc

I would be careful mentioning your equipment starting and seemingly working to the insurance company. They may easily mistake the equipment for non defective, "mistake" meaning it's the cheapest route for them. It really isn't unreasonable to claim cleaning and calibration costs for everything that has been wet and that means most of it is written off. It turning on isn't any guarantee it still functions as intended short or long term.

Of course, any self respecting insurance company will try to convince you that drying the equipment and using it as is is just fine and that they really won't and don't cover more than that. Most will try anything to avoid a payout.

[CatalinaWOW]

Be cautious in what you discuss with the insurance company.  They may well claim that any damage to your instruments was due to improper post damage care, such as turning on prior to proper cleaning and drying.

As to the arguments on how to clean that have come in this forum I will add a vote to the it varies and you have to know what you are working with.

Vacuum tube gear.  No, not necessarily good for dishwashing/spray cleaning.  Paper capacitor packages.  Bakelite junction strips and sockets.  Many open switches.  Many moisture traps.

60s transistor gear.  Possibly a golden age for power cleaning, but there are many traps here too.


I think we can all agree that residues from cleaning are possibly evil, that dried salts can collect moisture from the air and lead to corrosion and/or leakage paths.  Many of us can tell many stories of successful cleaning of boards by the Pease method (I have even cleaned boards along with the dishes on occasion), and many of us can tell horror stories of cleanings that went wrong.  Like one of mine where schmutz left between layers of a multi-layer board at manufacturer collected moisture during a cleaning that then survived more than one bake out cycle.  Made a battery that played hob with circuit operation.

Many of the differences in experience may result from the vast differences in water quality around the world.  Where I currently live dissolved salts in my domestic water are a few dozen parts per million.  At my previous location they were measured in parts per thousand.  Tektronix location in Portland probably had some of the better water around.  But I would have guessed that Pease location in the Bay area would have been closer to the other end of the scale.

[james_s]

I frequently wash dirty boards out in the sink with dish soap and warm water. I normally let it dry for several days by a heat register though, or if I'm in a hurry I go over it with a hair dryer or put it in the oven on warm for a while.

[Mr. Scram]

I frequently wash dirty boards out in the sink with dish soap and warm water. I normally let it dry for several days by a heat register though, or if I'm in a hurry I go over it with a hair dryer or put it in the oven on warm for a while.

The problem is what happens if the equipment goes faulty in 15 or 30 months due to lingering. Will the insurer cover it? I can assure you they won't.

[james_s]

Insurance is a different matter. If I were going to deal with insurance I would want the gear to be professionally refurbished, or declared a total loss and then buy it back from the insurance company for salvage value and repair it myself.

[Mr. Scram]

Insurance is a different matter. If I were going to deal with insurance I would want the gear to be professionally refurbished, or declared a total loss and then buy it back from the insurance company for salvage value and repair it myself.

Exactly that.

[tggzzz]

Insurance is a different matter. If I were going to deal with insurance I would want the gear to be professionally refurbished, or declared a total loss and then buy it back from the insurance company for salvage value and repair it myself.

Exactly that.

Indeed.

Also expect that next year's premium will be higher.

And make sure you actually are covered - the Ts&Cs may "require" you to have declared high value, sets, and business items separately. The insurance company will use any and evey means to avoid paying out.

(Tip with any insurance: only skim what is covered, but do carefully read the detailed exclusion clauses - and understand the circumstances in which each clause could bite you)

[Tomorokoshi]

I wash boards in various kinds of water depending on how many times I need to wash it and what type of equipment it's from. I add some Formula 409 to the mix. Sometimes I will use other cleaners instead.

I scrub the boards with a relatively soft bristle dishwasher brush from Ikea.

After rinsing I shake the boards to sweep most of the water off. Then I use a washcloth to dab off any remaining water that is accessible.

The boards are then placed in front of a dehumidifier. Warm, dry, turbulent air will dry it out relatively quickly.

[Mr. Scram]

Indeed.

Also expect that next year's premium will be higher.

And make sure you actually are covered - the Ts&Cs may "require" you to have declared high value, sets, and business items separately. The insurance company will use any and evey means to avoid paying out.

(Tip with any insurance: only skim what is covered, but do carefully read the detailed exclusion clauses - and understand the circumstances in which each clause could bite you)

If the premium's higher next year because of this you need a better insurer.

[ArthurDent]

Decades ago I bought a surplus HP 524A tube type frequency counter (with the neon counting columns for displays) that seemed to have about a million tubes and consumed 600 watts from the A.C. line! While bringing it home on a winter day with the roads covered with slushly snow, the tarp covering the counter blew off and I didn’t notice that until the counter was totally soaked with water contaminated with road salt and all sorts of oil and other crud. Traveling at about 60MPH really forced all that water into every nook and cranny of the instrument.

I knew that HP/Tektronix did wash their equipment with water followed by several other steps to complete the cleaning process. I modified their process and actually used a garden hose to spray every part of the unit, then used a lot of alcohol, then blew as much off as I could with a hair dryer on low heat. This was a military unit so the transformers were sealed which greatly helped plus I removed the frequency standard and cleaned that by hand.  The only parts that seemed to suffer were some cardboard tubes covering some electrolytics so you couldn’t accidently touch them and get shocked but they had nothing to do with operation. After letting it set next to a heat source for a few days and re-lubing switches, I tried it and it worked and continued working for a few years until I upgraded and got rid of it.

Just last week I cleaned a circuit board that was contaminated by a leaky NiCad battery with water, vinegar, alcohol, and a heat gun on low.  If you are careful and after getting a piece of equipment really clean you let it dry properly, you will probably be in good shape. Sometimes you have to totally dismantle items like the rubber button switch pads on a front panel because they can really trap any water that seeps into them, and carefully clean under ICs. If you haven’t cleaned something using this process before, it might be a last gasp effort. If the unit was on when it got soaked or it was turned on without cleaning, a LOT of stuff could short out and the unit may not be repairable. But if it’s already totally dead and you've exhausted all other options, hey, what do you have to lose?

[Zero999]

I did hint on this before, but I probably didn't make myself clear enough. Don't touch any equipment you want to make an insurance claim for. You could still claim for working items, if there's evidence they've been wet, because it's reasonable to believe they've been damaged and will fail in future.

I repeat, if it's covered by insurance, don't make any attempt to fix it yourself. Make a claim and get it repaired professionally or replaced, depending on what's more economical, which will probably be the latter.

[james_s]

When my friend had a house fire that caused smoke damage everywhere, the insurance paid for the replacement of all of the appliances but they let him keep the old stuff that had been written off. It's worth discussing at some point, if the equipment got wet then insurance should cover the replacement cost, but you should be able to buy it back at salvage value which may be next to nothing. Then you can try to fix it yourself.

[Brumby]

... but you should be able to buy it back at salvage value which may be next to nothing.

It will depend on the insurance company - but buying the salvage saves them the hassle of disposing of it.

[james_s]

Until they actually pay out, you still own the equipment. It's definitely worth talking to them about it.

[Raj]

Start watching Louis Rossman.
You shouldn't clean your board before making a record of every single point where corrosion has occurred.

[uc]

Dear Mr Scram.
You are right about my biggest concern. When will the problem start???
Dear Al:
Another Q: Is my Equipment a: -1 “Low end” or 2 -“mid end” or -3 “high end”?
My Tip: It is probably a “Low end” when a customer talking to insurance company. Prove me wrong
I think the cost for cleaning the equipment and do calibration is very high. Without knowing, I think the cost for a Pro…is about USD >150/hour so say >USD 300 to fix my RIGOL DS1054X and SIGLENT SDM3065X.
Any comments?

[james_s]

Yes the insurance company would almost certainly declare the equipment a total loss, in which case you should be paid the pre-damage value of said equipment. You can then either use that money to buy replacement equipment or in many cases you can buy back the damaged stuff at salvage value and fix it yourself. If you manage to fix it then pretty much any use you get out of it is free.

[Berni]

But how does the insurance company determine the value of it? Here they would often want a repair quote from an authorized service center. If its reasonably new a receipt of how much it cost.

This sounds reasonable for a TV but what about if i wanted to make a insurance claim that water poured over my HP 89410A (10MHz VSA). There is no Keysight service center in my country so the heavy boatanchor would have to be shipped off, it might be obsolete so questionable if they still fix them (Or would want to when they hear its full of water). Its pretty old so i can't get the price of it new while used prices for the thing on the internet can range from few 100s of dollar barings to a few grand. But i did buy it on ebay so i can sort of come up with a receipt.

But then say my Agilent 1134A (7GHz active probe) probe was also next to it and got the water. Keysight probably doesn't fix these since they are not very serviceable and i bought it off a guy directly so there is no receipt. They are discontinued so you can't buy a brand new one anymore, while the newer B replacement costs over 7 grand new. Surely they wouldn't pay me 7 grand in exchange for a photo of what looks like a wet piece of cable.

I have quite a lot of equipment but i was never sure how id make an insurance claim on it if something bad would happen to it. Like a lighting strike hits the pole just outside the house and blows half of it up.

[james_s]

It's quite common to use sale prices of similar gear on ebay or used equipment dealers. The only direct experience I've had was with a car which was quite a rare configuration of an otherwise relatively common car. They looked all over the country for comparable cars to base the value on, failing to find anything that qualifies they hired an appraiser who told them it was worth pretty much exactly what I said it was.

I would expect them to give you a lowball offer and then you'd scour ebay sold items for comparable equipment and in most cases a decent insurance company will cave and pay out as long as the amount you're demanding is not completely obscene.

If you have a lot of equipment you want to insure, take detailed photos of it, record model and serial numbers, make a note of anything unique about the specific equipment. Save any receipts you have, save any sold listings you happen to come across. It's not always trivial but it happens every day, there are people out there who's whole job is to assess the value of just about anything.

[Mr. Scram]

It's quite common to use sale prices of similar gear on ebay or used equipment dealers. The only direct experience I've had was with a car which was quite a rare configuration of an otherwise relatively common car. They looked all over the country for comparable cars to base the value on, failing to find anything that qualifies they hired an appraiser who told them it was worth pretty much exactly what I said it was.

I would expect them to give you a lowball offer and then you'd scour ebay sold items for comparable equipment and in most cases a decent insurance company will cave and pay out as long as the amount you're demanding is not completely obscene.

If you have a lot of equipment you want to insure, take detailed photos of it, record model and serial numbers, make a note of anything unique about the specific equipment. Save any receipts you have, save any sold listings you happen to come across. It's not always trivial but it happens every day, there are people out there who's whole job is to assess the value of just about anything.

It'd be safe to assume they're going to lowball you the first time. It's what they do.