Author Topic: Designing a PCB for a tube amp  (Read 9535 times)

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Offline Gyro

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2019, 03:06:44 pm »
 :-+ ... and just general PCB parasitic capacitances (hence putting it close to the tube).
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 03:11:43 pm by Gyro »
Best Regards, Chris
 
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #26 on: October 30, 2019, 03:36:23 pm »
:-+ ... and just general PCB parasitic capacitances (hence putting it close to the tube).

Thanks again, this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for. The end product, the pcb, the amp are secondary, it's all about learning.
Found this article that seems relevant to the issue: https://www.analog.com/en/analog-dialogue/articles/techniques-to-avoid-instability-capacitive-loading.html
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #27 on: October 30, 2019, 07:07:58 pm »
Analogue electronics has historically always been prototyped or breadboarded, see the master's Jim Williams or Bob Pease's work. That's one advantage of point-point wiring, turret strips, terminal strips etc. is you can move parts and wiring around and experiment, learn, try new things, almost instantly.

Nowadays people want to go straight to making a PCB, which is like working with concrete - one it's done hardening, you won't be moving traces around and learning from that. Troubleshooting hum and noise due to a few traces or bad ground strategy is nearly impossible. Your circuit must work beforehand, be tested.
In reviewing a PCB layout, I also look to see if the circuit makes sense. If I think a circuit isn't going to work, I hit the brakes on the pcb layout. Design Review meetings take many hours with a roomful of engineers.

The architecture is three gain stages with overdrive possible at any one of them, so it's designed for rock and roll, the Marshall sound of my wasted youth. But swapping in a single-ended EL84 section may not be right. Have you built this, tried it out? You want similar gain of the EL84 stage to the push-pull pair and phase-splitter/presence control/NFB of the bigger original.
 
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Offline Audioguru again

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #28 on: October 30, 2019, 07:17:56 pm »
Where will you buy a power transformer, an output transformer and first and many replacement vacuum tubes for this antique amplifier design?
Negative feedback reduces the gain, might cause oscillation and reduces distortion that the design had because the distortion was part of its design.
 
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #29 on: October 30, 2019, 07:49:32 pm »
Analogue electronics has historically always been prototyped or breadboarded, see the master's Jim Williams or Bob Pease's work. That's one advantage of point-point wiring, turret strips, terminal strips etc. is you can move parts and wiring around and experiment, learn, try new things, almost instantly.

Nowadays people want to go straight to making a PCB, which is like working with concrete - one it's done hardening, you won't be moving traces around and learning from that. Troubleshooting hum and noise due to a few traces or bad ground strategy is nearly impossible. Your circuit must work beforehand, be tested.
In reviewing a PCB layout, I also look to see if the circuit makes sense. If I think a circuit isn't going to work, I hit the brakes on the pcb layout. Design Review meetings take many hours with a roomful of engineers.

The architecture is three gain stages with overdrive possible at any one of them, so it's designed for rock and roll, the Marshall sound of my wasted youth. But swapping in a single-ended EL84 section may not be right. Have you built this, tried it out? You want similar gain of the EL84 stage to the push-pull pair and phase-splitter/presence control/NFB of the bigger original.

I haven't built it myself, but a friend has built a different (one layer, etched at home) pcb, and he managed to make it work after a lot of fiddling, cutting traces, rewiring grounds, etc. I can't say how closer it is to the original jcm800 tone, but it does sound pretty damn good and marshally when it works. It won't be the same, of course, if only because the power stage is so different, but that doesn't matter to us. At this point it's a bit of a personal challenge for us.

BTW, I pulled the schematic and I can't find the negative feedback anywhere: https://www.thetubestore.com/lib/thetubestore/schematics/Marshall/Marshall-JCM800-50W-4010-Schematic.pdf
Perhaps it's there in some other jcm800 model, not sure
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 12:22:46 am by dazz »
 

Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2019, 07:51:52 pm »
Where will you buy a power transformer, an output transformer and first and many replacement vacuum tubes for this antique amplifier design?
Negative feedback reduces the gain, might cause oscillation and reduces distortion that the design had because the distortion was part of its design.

12ax7 and el84's are readily available, and the output transformer won't be the same as the original since de power amp is different too. I don't think that will be an issue, unless I'm missing something here
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #31 on: October 30, 2019, 08:24:23 pm »
Regarding ground planes: this is actually one of those situations where it's less preferable.  Because of the high impedances (1kohm+).  At the very least, the clearances must be higher (50 mils?) to deal with the voltages.  Trace widths can still be thin (I'd go with 20 mil I think, just so there's some meat in case something gets scratched).

That leaves shielding, between input and output, and between stages.  And between heater supply, I suppose.  It's certainly still valuable to have ground filling these locations.  You can still pour ground with these rules set, and then route manually where the clearance prevents the pour from connecting.  Set the rule for pours, with a modest exception for traces (maybe 20-40 mils, whatever the maximum required to route to, or between, pins is).  A brief stretch of closer proximity won't matter as far as capacitance is concerned, and low voltages (most grids and cathodes) don't need as much insulation clearance.

Regarding the layout as shown:

Don't do single point or star grounding nonsense, it takes an expert eye to resolve correctly and you're probably setting yourself up for failure otherwise.  Just pour everywhere given the above rules, stitch over traces where needed, and trust that ground is filling well enough that any voltage drop will be negligible (and that no RF resonance will reach a high enough impedance for anything to oscillate -- the aforementioned grid stoppers help greatly with this, too).

Try to route the heaters separate from the rest of the circuit, and route them close together to keep induced voltage small (if AC is used).

Tim
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2019, 09:44:54 pm »
Regarding ground planes: this is actually one of those situations where it's less preferable.  Because of the high impedances (1kohm+).  At the very least, the clearances must be higher (50 mils?) to deal with the voltages.  Trace widths can still be thin (I'd go with 20 mil I think, just so there's some meat in case something gets scratched).

That leaves shielding, between input and output, and between stages.  And between heater supply, I suppose.  It's certainly still valuable to have ground filling these locations.  You can still pour ground with these rules set, and then route manually where the clearance prevents the pour from connecting.  Set the rule for pours, with a modest exception for traces (maybe 20-40 mils, whatever the maximum required to route to, or between, pins is).  A brief stretch of closer proximity won't matter as far as capacitance is concerned, and low voltages (most grids and cathodes) don't need as much insulation clearance.

Regarding the layout as shown:

Don't do single point or star grounding nonsense, it takes an expert eye to resolve correctly and you're probably setting yourself up for failure otherwise.  Just pour everywhere given the above rules, stitch over traces where needed, and trust that ground is filling well enough that any voltage drop will be negligible (and that no RF resonance will reach a high enough impedance for anything to oscillate -- the aforementioned grid stoppers help greatly with this, too).

Try to route the heaters separate from the rest of the circuit, and route them close together to keep induced voltage small (if AC is used).

Tim

I have decided to leave the heaters tracks there. Well, sort of. I'll spin another version of the board with no filament traces, and will panelize them so I'll get 5 of each. I might even do a 3rd version and order 5 panels of 3 different boards each. That way I can experiment with a few different things and see how they work.

20mil (5mm) is what I have right now for the signal traces, and I'll follow your lead there and increase the ground plane clearance to 50mil.

I also moved the filament traces closer together where possible, and managed to avoid crossing signal traces in a couple of spots.

Sorry, but I don't know what you mean re: grounding. If I shouldn't use a ground plane, nor star grounding, but I can still do copper pouring... :-//

Are my keepouts where longer signal traces run, not enough to keep stray capacitance from effecting the tone of the amp?
 

Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2019, 09:54:52 pm »
Does anyone know how to set the clearance for the board outline independently of the netclasses? I've set my power netclass clearance to 2.5mm to avoid arching but the traces that are close to the board edge trigger DRC errors, which makes no sense to me. I'm I trippin'?
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2019, 09:56:58 pm »
Not that you shouldn't use a plane, just that it's less preferable, which is really to say, that there can be more distance between signals and ground.  The openings you've made do help with distance.  What you want to avoid is crossing signals over wide gaps or splits -- the slot near the input is a concern, and the slot by the power supply would be a concern if they were signal traces (but they are power, carried on resistors of high value and bypassed at point of use, which is an excellent mitigation).

I doubt you'll notice anything wrong, honestly: at these frequencies and impedances, you'd have to have either very strong interference to be perceptible to the circuit, and what little crosstalk or feedback may arise across such a short piece of metal (the path around the ground slot) will be similarly negligible.

Tim
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2019, 10:20:06 pm »
What you want to avoid is crossing signals over wide gaps or splits -- the slot near the input is a concern
Tim

Sorry to be such a pest, but can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean I should avoid running long signal traces over gaps in the ground plane? If that's the case, isn't that the whole point of adding gaps in the gnd plane, to avoid adding low pass filters to the circuit? Is the concern at that point the lack of shielding that the gnd plane would provide but doesn't anymore?

If the above is right, what I was trying to do is to avoid stray capacitance, sacrificing shielding in traces that will either already have significant gain, or won't be amplified all that much (low channel)
Let me know if I got it wrong, please

and the slot by the power supply would be a concern if they were signal traces (but they are power, carried on resistors of high value and bypassed at point of use, which is an excellent mitigation).

Tim

Unfortunately, if that was the right thing to do, it happened by pure chance, because I don't know what any of that means  :-[
« Last Edit: October 30, 2019, 10:22:35 pm by dazz »
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2019, 11:10:42 pm »
There is actually a pair of *Canadian* companies that are at the forefront of vintage electronics.

Hammond Mfg in Ontario is an excellent source for classic power and audio transformers, and chokes:
https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/classic

And Sphere Research in British Columbia has tubes and vintage parts galore:
https://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/tubes.html
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2019, 11:49:50 pm »
Edcor USA for low cost transformers, and parts (M6 laminations, end bells). Sowter UK is excellent, probably the best selection I've seen but shipping is expensive across the Atlantic.

For simplicity and low risk, I'd consider wire for the filament connections or using DC for the pre-amp tubes. Marshall switched over to DC filaments there. Many circuits to peruse at:
https://el34world.com/charts/Schematics/files/marshall/Marshall_Schematics.htm

I disagree on the big ground pour, the originals going back to the 1950's Fender, Marshall etc. always used two or more star grounds, bare minimum a power ground and signal ground. You don't want ripple current from the main filter cap or output stage getting near the pre-amp. I would think we can do the same or better. It's just keeping three or four nodes close. OP has most of it reasonable.

This pic of a Marshall chassis shows the signal ground bus at the front, filament twisted pair at the far back, and chassis ground for higher currents.
They could have just grounded stuff anywhere convenient to the chassis, which is much thicker than pcb copper...
 

Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2019, 12:18:02 am »
After following your wise advice, this is what the pcb looks like at the moment. Moved things around a bit to dodge the filament traces where I could. Then increased the clearance to 1.5mm for HV signal traces from the plates and made sure there's at least 2.5mm clearance between all high voltage tracks and pads with everything else. Added some ground pads in different spots just in case I need to bridge the keepout gaps for some reason. Also the cathode follower got it's grid & cathode stoppers. And I'm probably forgetting some other things I changed. Hope at least I didn't make it worse than it was before!  :-DD

I'm considering the two completely separate ground planes for the preamp and the rest of the circuit, then running two ground wires to chassis gnd. I can always add a jumper to connect both planes.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2019, 12:54:04 am by dazz »
 

Online T3sl4co1l

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2019, 02:31:34 am »
Sorry to be such a pest, but can you please elaborate on this? Do you mean I should avoid running long signal traces over gaps in the ground plane? If that's the case, isn't that the whole point of adding gaps in the gnd plane, to avoid adding low pass filters to the circuit? Is the concern at that point the lack of shielding that the gnd plane would provide but doesn't anymore?

Right, you're making a bastard plane at this point.  It should still have reasonably good conductivity between all points (and especially along the directions of signals routed over it), but it should be somewhat distant from those signals, which is where the holes come in.

Consider if you built the circuit using twisted pairs to carry signals (with ground) between sections (or perhaps twin lead, which at Zo ~ 300 ohms has much lower capacitance than regular ~100 ohm twisted pair).  All the grounds tie together at each local ground, and pairs route between localities.  (A locale, a subcircuit, would probably be a given amp stage.)  Which will naturally lead to some ground loops, but small ones, and controllable by means of collecting together pairs that are running in similar directions.  (Or a ladder architecture where power flows right to left, and signal left to right -- as drawn on the schematic -- which is a quite good way to do it.  No worry about star grounding, the ladder architecture already guarantees that!)

Effectively, you can expand that a bit by using a pour -- it could also be a "mesh" or grid pour at this point -- giving more conductivity than the pair-routed case: less voltage drop for a given current flow, and so less need to take stock of the voltage drops across ground.


Quote
If the above is right, what I was trying to do is to avoid stray capacitance, sacrificing shielding in traces that will either already have significant gain, or won't be amplified all that much (low channel)
Let me know if I got it wrong, please

Yeah, it's not far off, just the cases I mentioned.

It's hard to talk through this without a framework; I can approach this from an RF-port perspective, where a signal is a transmission line over ground, and the low-frequency equivalent circuit arises out of the impedances and delays of those transmission lines.  This is very general, and hard to express in terms of a textbook "here's a voltage and here's an [absolute] ground" circuit.  (Partly for precisely that reason, that the textbook circuit assumes uniform ground.)

At low frequencies, transmission lines become reactances based on their characteristic lengths and impedances.  Which in turn come from the dimensions of the circuit, and the frequencies of interest.  At DC, the textbook circuit is indeed the correct case (given you can write down the ideally small, but still nonzero, resistances of ground itself).  But that's not a very interesting case.  So at AC, you can look at important dimensions, like how close signals are to ground, and their lengths; or the spacing of signals, compared to ground (which doesn't depend on transmission line behavior, very much: avoiding crosstalk or oscillation by sheer distance between signals, or shielding by routing ground inbetween them, works at all frequencies!).

The hazard occurs when, at a frequency of interest, a ground slot (say) is long and wide enough to drop significant voltage, and a trace crosses over that gap -- then the voltage drop across that gap is impressed upon the trace, and interference gets in.  In works perfectly symmetrically, where a signal crossing a gap carries a current across that gap, exciting it (allowing interference to get out: say, RFI from a digital circuit).

Probably, you're nowhere near the frequency * length where this even can be an issue, and so it's merely "best practices" -- not anything pertinent.  (I mean, I would like to think that's enough of a reason, but obviously, it doesn't have to be. :P )

Tim
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2019, 06:18:40 pm »
Awesome stuff, thanks T3sl4co1l

I think I see what you mean now when you say that the slot at the input is a concern.



So the trace that goes to the gain pot and back, ends up like 30mm farther away over the other side of the ground plane. Hopefully the plane is beefy enough to avoid any significant voltage drop between those two spots, I would think it is, we'll see. I have added a bunch of gnd pads in different spots just in case I need to bypass the gnd plane gaps for some reason.

OK, I just rewired the power supply cause I obviously had one of the caps in the wrong place, and a couple other minor tweaks. Guess I'm gonna call it good and go order those pcb's.

For the umpteenth time, thanks heaps to all who helped me with this thing, you guys rock!
 

Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #41 on: November 30, 2019, 12:26:22 pm »
Guys. The PCB was a total success! Thanks everyone.
Here's a quick demo by a friend of mine (I can't play anywhere near as good) who just put it together


 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #42 on: November 30, 2019, 06:27:06 pm »
Cogratulations!!

That is exactly how a tubed guitar amp should sound like.

And your friend was really, really happy: "un trabajo encomiable, encomiable. El tio es un reloj. Al primer tiron y a puro pelo. Estoy anonadado".
Love those Castilian phrases.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 06:29:00 pm by schmitt trigger »
 
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #43 on: November 30, 2019, 06:35:59 pm »
Cogratulations!!

That is exactly how a tubed guitar amp should sound like.

And your friend was really, really happy: "un trabajo encomiable, encomiable. El tio es un reloj. Al primer tiron y a puro pelo. Estoy anonadado".
Love those Castilian phrases.

Muchas gracias! :)
I would have never pulled this off without your help, guys
 

Offline andy3055

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #44 on: November 30, 2019, 08:52:25 pm »
Great job! I like how that PCB turned out for you.
 
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #45 on: August 12, 2020, 03:52:42 pm »
Hey guys & gals, after finishing this pcb, I have since designed a push-pull version of the amp, then modified it to mount the tubes on the top layer and the components on the bottom layer to make it easier to mount on a header chassis. Quick question, please. I want to have the ground plane on the bottom layer so that the signal traces on the top layer are sandwiched between the chassis and the grounded copper pour, for isolation purposes, right?
 


« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 03:56:27 pm by dazz »
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #46 on: August 12, 2020, 04:05:16 pm »
These 3D rendering thingies have become pretty good  these days :-+
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #47 on: August 12, 2020, 07:05:46 pm »
Hey guys & gals, after finishing this pcb, I have since designed a push-pull version of the amp, then modified it to mount the tubes on the top layer and the components on the bottom layer to make it easier to mount on a header chassis. Quick question, please. I want to have the ground plane on the bottom layer so that the signal traces on the top layer are sandwiched between the chassis and the grounded copper pour, for isolation purposes, right?

So long as the PCB GND and the chassis GND are shared and bolted together.  If you are operating based on a star GND system where the optimum central GND reference is the middle of the PCB, then a bolt at the middle of the PCB, the only one with a GND connection should be tied to your frame.

When routing your PCB, remember the 'star' GND rules for at least the power supply and you should be able to cancel out any looping GND interference or injected hum from the PSU DC rectification.

IE, your GND fill is your signal GND and the PSU GND & rectification caps should have their own GND path on the other side of the PCB, going to that GND star point before feeding the rest of your signal GND.

However, this strategy is taking things to extremes as if the amp was mimicking old fashioned point-point wire design.
(Also, if you do not have series resistors on your PSP diodes, add a 10-100nf cap in parallel with each one.  This further imunes your from a possible faint buzz injected during the diodes switching which may come depending on the harshness of your AC supply.  This was never an issue with tube-rectification, or some really slow old diodes.)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 07:12:22 pm by BrianHG »
 
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Offline dazzTopic starter

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #48 on: August 12, 2020, 07:36:48 pm »
So long as the PCB GND and the chassis GND are shared and bolted together.  If you are operating based on a star GND system where the optimum central GND reference is the middle of the PCB, then a bolt at the middle of the PCB, the only one with a GND connection should be tied to your frame.

When routing your PCB, remember the 'star' GND rules for at least the power supply and you should be able to cancel out any looping GND interference or injected hum from the PSU DC rectification.

IE, your GND fill is your signal GND and the PSU GND & rectification caps should have their own GND path on the other side of the PCB, going to that GND star point before feeding the rest of your signal GND.

However, this strategy is taking things to extremes as if the amp was mimicking old fashioned point-point wire design.
(Also, if you do not have series resistors on your PSP diodes, add a 10-100nf cap in parallel with each one.  This further imunes your from a possible faint buzz injected during the diodes switching which may come depending on the harshness of your AC supply.  This was never an issue with tube-rectification, or some really slow old diodes.)

I don't have a star ground scheme in this one, here I simply poured two separate ground planes, one for the PSU and pentode cathodes, and another one for the preamp. The output GND connectors are marked in blue, those will go to the star ground bolt in the chassis. Or that's the plan anyway.

The inputs are at the bottom left, as far away from the power supply as possible



ETA: Thanks for the tip about those caps in parallel with the rectifying diodes, I'll see if I can make room for them
« Last Edit: August 12, 2020, 07:39:22 pm by dazz »
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Designing a PCB for a tube amp
« Reply #49 on: August 13, 2020, 03:40:40 am »
A trick I use to help me visualize how and where to section my GND is first not to use the flood fill at all.  I use thick traces.  Many times really thick in places like when I designing an amp.  Note that I use the shortest/most direct and thickest traces where the most current flows.

Once everything is done, I do select and do GND fill where necessary as the PCB cad software polygon fill automatically go right over my GND tracks anyways.  (So long as the option 'pour over same net' is enabled.)

This way, I can see is a star GND scheme makes sense and I will also see if my PSP section needs any such fill at all.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 03:47:29 am by BrianHG »
 


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