Desktop for EE student

[SuperMiguel]

How much power do i need?? right now im using a macbook pro with 8gb of ram and 2 SSD in raid 0.. Pretty fast for me.. And im getting ready to buy a desktop to put it in my workbench, to do specific electronics jobs like arduino/avr programming, eagle, signal generator, etc.. I was thinking to get a nettop, like http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16856173001 or should i get something powerful???

[sonicj]

why would you want to use anything other than your MBP? you can run arduino & eclipse natively, and boot windows via emulation or bootcamp when necessary. i would buy a extra magsafe brick for your desk and maybe a copy of parallels.
-sj

[fsleeman]

Unless space was a requirement I would build a "real" computer. You can build a complete standard computer for well under $500 that will have several times the performance of that mini system. It will also be next to be impossible to upgrade that system especially to the next generation hardware. I am not very familiar with those Atom systems but driver support might be an issue with development systems. Plus, if you get standard computer you can still easily use it for everything else.

[JohnS_AZ]

I'm kind of in the same boat, building up a new shop and bench. For the computer I am (and recommend) building up a full conventional PC for the reasons mentioned above.  The little bricks like you linked scare me for the same reason I'll try to never buy a laptop PC again : I have a stack of a half dozen of them, several brands, all expensive at the time, and all of which died due to insufficient cooling of the CPU and video processors. Under my bench, I want a big(ish) metal box with a full size (easily replaceable) cooling fan.

Beyond serviceability, it can be expanded and/or augmented at will. There are I/O boards for just about any physical interface on the planet, and the hardware is wildly less expensive.

As an aside, I'm not completely anti-portable. I recently bought an HP Netbook, and am absolutely in love with it. But then I bought it for very specific and limited applications; wifi access to the web, email while traveling, and playing poker untethered on my back deck.    As it turns out it's great on the workbench as well for pulling up PDFs of component datasheets, or looking at schematics on my local server.

[Mechatrommer]

i'm a bench desktop "geek" just as fslee and John mentioned. but mainly not because reasons they proposed about upgradability, performance etc, but because my 1st computer is bench type, so switching to laptop type is unpleasent to me for 2 main reasons.... small keyboard, and... small screen.... other minor issue, usually no mouse, hassle to plug the charger etc.

upgradability: i found out once i bought a system, i'll tend to stick to it, upgrade for me, means upgrading the memory or CPU, but by the time i want to make an upgrade, the newer ram or cpu currently on market are not supported by my older motherboard, so i'll ended up buying the whole new thing. unless you are type of my guru fren (a person who taught me everything on computer hardware installation) who upgrade his system every 3-6 months.

performance: its true, bench type can crack and designed for more power and performance lust. but unless you are "crazy" gamers, "benchmark peeper", or specialist in animation movie maker or scientist to do scientific computational intencive simulation, the performance difference is hardly noticed... practically, mostly for "normal people" who just like to watch movie, listen to musics and surf "facebook".

i start to own a computer (bench) during 2002 until now 2010, so 8 years, IIRC i've made 3-4 "major" "bench" upgrades. i still love bench type and never will for lap/netbook i think. for me, my M912 netbook is only meant for presenting something to others, or in emergency of mobility reason, and... lastly.. bought meant for my wife to learn facebook but for serious work... its far from it. i also own Atom (which is fine even for some serious work), and other variety of Pentium system at My shop (currently closed), and at my work. The Atom is meant for my "embedded system" my serious real workhorse workstation is at my home Pentium Quad Core 2.6GHz, 3GB RAM, TBytes of combined storage/backup/scratch disk (internal+external), WinXP. (note the 3GB RAM is due to WinXP limitation, i dont have time to find tweak/hack for it to enable higher ram and never care). 3GB is fine for me 99.999999% of the time, but if the OS and MB will let me, i'll opt for maximum RAM that i can afford probably like 4-8GB ram.

most younger people nowadays is using laptop/netbooks, thats the trend i see. i think its fine as long as they are comfortable and can produce some usefull outcome, thats all the real matter after all... what actually we can get out of the tools we have. but the trend for younger people is more toward socializing and play facebook, sadly. the older guy i am, but... they never have a chance to taste the real "taste" of bench PC computing.

so long rumble short.... you have to weight the balance between...
bench pc = performance (for number crunching software)
laptop = mobility

adios!... office rumble.

[Mechatrommer]

to do specific electronics jobs like arduino/avr programming, eagle, signal generator, etc.. I was thinking to get a nettop, like .... or should i get something powerful???

the app you mentioned? a 200MHz pentium 1! can do the job! why waste money on a new PC?

since u already have a powerful MAC, i believe it can be setup as bench config... permanent charger on wall, connect to big lcd, keyboard,mouse etc. unlesss! u need more than one computer, then... get another one, and i suggest... bench PC with multicore GHzer.

or if you are planning for the real number cruncher and iterator software like Adobe Premiere Pro, 3D Studio Animation Rendering. etc, then get a real pc.

[Hewitson]

the app you mentioned? a 200MHz pentium 1! can do the job! why waste money on a new PC?

Exactly. But if you have your heart set on a new system, those Atom processors are pathetically slow. You could get something that'd perform far better off the side of the road for nothing.

[sonicj]

i used to be the dual 21" build your own workstation type... but a few years ago, i was in a work situation where i only had access to my 15" notebook for 3 months. once i got used to working on a smaller, single screen i have absolutely no desire to go back! i have a MCE machine for dvr, and a couple of other linux & windows boxes kicking around, but my 15" Macbook Pro is my goto, get $*!* done workhorse! there is VERY Little i cannot do solely on this machine and thats mostly because im too lazy setup a windows partition for dual booting/virtualization.

after building machines for myself and customers for many years, $2k for a laptop was a bitter pill to swallow, but now that im comfortable on mac os and working on the smaller form factor i'd give up my left nut before i switched back to pc/desktop.
-sj

[SuperMiguel]

i used to be the dual 21" build your own workstation type... but a few years ago, i was in a work situation where i only had access to my 15" notebook for 3 months. once i got used to working on a smaller, single screen i have absolutely no desire to go back! i have a MCE machine for dvr, and a couple of other linux & windows boxes kicking around, but my 15" Macbook Pro is my goto, get $*!* done workhorse! there is VERY Little i cannot do solely on this machine and thats mostly because im too lazy setup a windows partition for dual booting/virtualization.

after building machines for myself and customers for many years, $2k for a laptop was a bitter pill to swallow, but now that im comfortable on mac os and working on the smaller form factor i'd give up my left nut before i switched back to pc/desktop.
-sj

I have a 13" macbook pro and i like it, so far i been using it on my work bench plugged to a 22" monitor, but its kinda of a pain in the *&%*% to connect the laptop to ac power, to a keyboard, to a mouse, to a monitor, etc... I tried looking for a docking station but cant find anything good.. thats why i was kinda thinking to get a desktop

[Hewitson]

You guys paying thousands of dollars for an apple badge are real suckers.. Why wouldn't you buy an Asus or something for a fraction of the price and put OS X on that?

[SuperMiguel]

the only reason i bought this macbook pro, is because when i was looking to purchase a laptop, was the only one with a true core 2 duo cpu, it supports 8gb of ram, supports 2 hard drives and raid...

[Mechatrommer]

You guys paying thousands of dollars for an apple badge are real suckers.. Why wouldn't you buy an Asus or something for a fraction of the price and put OS X on that?

very direct! let the "Apple" users reply... i'm not saying anything.

i remember, when i was out for a course, i got stucked with one guy who own a Mac laptop, and i ask why he choose MAC? and then he start explaining all the features, and showing me when we touch the screen and drag up quickly, the App will be minimized, how user friendly it is etc etc etc, nothing regarding to do a real task. I just listen to him, but in my heart... just because of that?!

[Mechatrommer]

Exactly. But if you have your heart set on a new system, those Atom processors are pathetically slow. You could get something that'd perform far better off the side of the road for nothing.

you missed something about the Atom.... its smaller than full sized PC. every system will have their own spec target, when you have something, you'll lose something, you cannot get everything. thats why when choosing a system, you have to ask yourself, what are you going to do with that machine? not looking at what most people use. as the OP mentioned, just programming AVR and simulating a circuit? the existing MAC book is more than enough. maybe the OP want to buy the new system not because the performance issue, but more toward user friendliness. from the way he speaks, he is more toward bench type PC. believe me every "not so old" PC will be happy to do the job, even the Atom, i owned it and i know, with WinXP OS. With Windows7? what are you expecting? a faster OS as promoted? forget it!

[joelby]

I have a 13" macbook pro and i like it, so far i been using it on my work bench plugged to a 22" monitor, but its kinda of a pain in the *&%*% to connect the laptop to ac power, to a keyboard, to a mouse, to a monitor, etc... I tried looking for a docking station but cant find anything good.. thats why i was kinda thinking to get a desktop

How about using a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse? The MagSafe power adaptor is easier to connect on a MacBook than any other laptop.. you could get a second one if you don't want to unplug it from the power point. Then you just have to deal with the monitor adaptor, which I've never found too bothersome.

[GeoffS]

I have a number of computers but it's the desktop (or rather under the desktop)  that gets the most use.
It's a few years old but the only original component is the case, everything else has been replaced/upgraded.
As I run it as a server (Linux), I go for the fastest processor and maximum amount of memory that the budget supports. Currently it's an AMD 6 core CPU with 8GB memory.
I run various virtulisation programs (VMware, virtualbox) so I can run microcontroller development software that is only avail for XP.

I have an aging IBM laptop that doesn't get a lot of use except as a remote connection to my home network - lets me sit out in the garden and still read EEVblog  
The only Apple computer I've every owned is a PPC Mac Mini. I still have this but it's only used for photo storage and processing.

One thing I couldn't do without is a big monitor. Currently it's a 22" Dell.

[DJPhil]

I may be new to electronics, but desktop computers I know! Well, mostly, I can't speak to anything Apple makes. Nonstandard expensive parts make me frown.

If you use care in selecting your parts you'll be amazed how cheaply you can put together a good desktop. You don't need anything special for your purposes in the way of power. Speaking of 'just the box' (i.e. no monitor, printer, keyboard, OS, etc.), you can get what you need for around $600-700US comfortably, and you can shave $200-300US off of that for a budget machine. The main difference is build quality and durability, which you always pay more in the short run for.

The really small modules like you've listed are likely to be underpowered, and I'm not a fan of laptops for fixed installations for the same reasons JohnS_AZ mentions (I feel your pain there). Assuming you don't expect to want to run two high powered video cards or several internal hard drives I'd consider a microATX build with onboard video. It'll wind up smaller than a full tower (a good thing) and still be large enough to be properly ventilated. Drag it out every six months, or more often if you remember, and use some compressed air to blow out all the dust, it'll make it last a decade longer.

Everyone's got their favorite parts manufacturers, and with customary immodesty I'll tell you mine. Antec makes the best cases I've ever seen, but they're a little pricey. Heavy gauge metal, rolled edges to cut down on blood loss, everything lines up the first time, plenty of extra hardware, you name it. I prefer their power supplies as well. I've put them in probably two dozen machines in the past ten years, half of which I still maintain for friends, and not one has so much as developed a noisy fan.

I tend to Gigabyte or Asus motherboards, in that order. If you're wandering through newegg reviews on motherboards you'll see people go postal and start frothing over a DOA board. Truth is that it happens, you RMA it and if it's handled well by all then it's inconvenient but survivable.

Memory, unless you want to overclock it, is just memory. If you want to leave room for more memory later then fill half the slots in the board with whatever size you like, just remember that you'll need a 64bit OS to use more than about 3.5GB (4 is fine). You'll likely find that you'll be upgrading motherboard/cpu/memory all at once down the road though, so don't sweat it too much if you max it out.

As for the AMD/Intel, Nvidia/ATI, and OS wars, do whatever makes you feel good. I go with bang for buck as often as I can, and it really doesn't matter that much. There's little things, like the Nvidia graphics support being better in Linux, but so long as you leave yourself a PCIEx16 slot you can get a card later and switch off the onboard video if you need to.

Hope that helps. Always glad to ramble on about desktop hardware.

[fsleeman]

As for the AMD/Intel, Nvidia/ATI, and OS wars, do whatever makes you feel good. I go with bang for buck as often as I can, and it really doesn't matter that much. There's little things, like the Nvidia graphics support being better in Linux, but so long as you leave yourself a PCIEx16 slot you can get a card later and switch off the onboard video if you need to.

If you intend using Linux, I would avoid ATI like the plague. I have had horrible experience with their video drivers and so far no issues with nVidia. Integrated GPUs on the mother board are great for saving money, especially if you don't want to do any 3D stuff (games, CAD, etc). It would probably be worth it to make sure your motherboard/GPU will work on Linux before you buy if you are going in that direction.

[NiHaoMike]

Exactly. But if you have your heart set on a new system, those Atom processors are pathetically slow. You could get something that'd perform far better off the side of the road for nothing.

you missed something about the Atom.... its smaller than full sized PC. every system will have their own spec target, when you have something, you'll lose something, you cannot get everything. thats why when choosing a system, you have to ask yourself, what are you going to do with that machine? not looking at what most people use. as the OP mentioned, just programming AVR and simulating a circuit? the existing MAC book is more than enough. maybe the OP want to buy the new system not because the performance issue, but more toward user friendliness. from the way he speaks, he is more toward bench type PC. believe me every "not so old" PC will be happy to do the job, even the Atom, i owned it and i know, with WinXP OS. With Windows7? what are you expecting? a faster OS as promoted? forget it!

No reason to get a slow Atom when there's the OMAP 4.
http://pandaboard.org/

[SuperMiguel]

Exactly. But if you have your heart set on a new system, those Atom processors are pathetically slow. You could get something that'd perform far better off the side of the road for nothing.

you missed something about the Atom.... its smaller than full sized PC. every system will have their own spec target, when you have something, you'll lose something, you cannot get everything. thats why when choosing a system, you have to ask yourself, what are you going to do with that machine? not looking at what most people use. as the OP mentioned, just programming AVR and simulating a circuit? the existing MAC book is more than enough. maybe the OP want to buy the new system not because the performance issue, but more toward user friendliness. from the way he speaks, he is more toward bench type PC. believe me every "not so old" PC will be happy to do the job, even the Atom, i owned it and i know, with WinXP OS. With Windows7? what are you expecting? a faster OS as promoted? forget it!

No reason to get a slow Atom when there's the OMAP 4.
http://pandaboard.org/

ummm that looks cool.. but what can you do with it, i guess you can install ubuntu on it.. and use it to program chips.. But is it faster than than the atoms?

[NiHaoMike]

The older OMAP 3 is faster than many of the Atoms, and the OMAP 4 is more than twice as fast.

[SuperMiguel]

The older OMAP 3 is faster than many of the Atoms, and the OMAP 4 is more than twice as fast.

so if it runs ubuntu i guess i wont have any problems running avrdude or arduino ide on it?

[alm]

No reason to get a slow Atom when there's the OMAP 4.
http://pandaboard.org/

Except price, I believe you can get an Atom board for $60, the Pandaboard is $174 according to the website.

[SuperMiguel]

A good one is a bit more http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153187

[NiHaoMike]

Except price, I believe you can get an Atom board for $60, the Pandaboard is $174 according to the website.

Do note that the Pandaboard has two HDMI/DVIs, onboard wireless, and onboard DC/DC. And I don't think the lowest end Atoms can handle 1080p video.

If you're just looking for a very cheap low power computing solution, a used laptop might be your best bet.

A good one is a bit more http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153187

No HDMI/DVI, no onboard wireless, and DC/DC converter required for operation from an AC adapter. The lack of HDMI/DVI is particularly a problem since most new monitors use that.

[SuperMiguel]

Except price, I believe you can get an Atom board for $60, the Pandaboard is $174 according to the website.

Do note that the Pandaboard has two HDMI/DVIs, onboard wireless, and onboard DC/DC. And I don't think the lowest end Atoms can handle 1080p video.

If you're just looking for a very cheap low power computing solution, a used laptop might be your best bet.

A good one is a bit more http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813153187

No HDMI/DVI, no onboard wireless, and DC/DC converter required for operation from an AC adapter. The lack of HDMI/DVI is particularly a problem since most new monitors use that.

Do you own this unit? what you use it for?