Eagle or KiCad for a beginner, sporadic user

[Galenbo]

What software to use? Important for me:

-I develop 0,2 PCB's a year. So the software should be simple, ready to go, no 5-page project settings to do before I start.

-I will make 1 or 2 layer PCB, with say max. 10 components on it. Mostly adapter card, some voltage converter, upgrade doughterboard, indicator upgrade, communication board with just 2 connectors and some resistors,...

-Thru hole and Smd

-Should generate a known file format, to email to PCB companies.

-Automatic place and route, optimalisation, libraries, simulation etc is unimportant. Just put the components, draw the lines.

-Free if possible, or at least cheap.

-If possible and compatible with the above: Should provide "very little, but at least some" expierience with software that is used in the industry.

I stole this pic, to show the maximum project I will do:

 

[PedroDaGr8]

I like diptrace, check it out as well. Basically try them all, Sr which one feels most natural as there is no right answer. It's like asking which color is better red, blue or yellow. It's personal preference as they all are competent for beginner level stuff.

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[Kappes Buur]

You might also want to consider http://www.designspark.com/eng/page/designspark-pcb-home-page

[Galenbo]

It's like asking which color is better red, blue or yellow.

Yeah I know. But to someone who doesn't know anything about color, I can advise: Dont choose black, you see all the dust and a lot of cleaning traces on it :-)

Thanks a lot to all for your advices, keep posting.
Especially the 'absolute beginner and very sporadic user' arguments.

[Galenbo]

You might also want to consider http://www.designspark.com/eng/page/designspark-pcb-home-page

Can you please give me some of your own user experiences?

In the way: Sketchup is a nice 3D program, but if you want to save your model as a .stl with version 7, you'll expierience a lot of problems if you want to use it for visualisation in Labview.

[andtfoot]

I've found DipTrace the most intuitive so far.
The beta seems to have improved that even more (easier to select components to place) so it's worth a shot.

[mariush]

Kicad probably changes too often (if you only do 1-2 boards a year) to be worst investing time to learn. Eagle costs money if you want to make bigger boards.

Go with DipTrace, if you're going to learn something at least start new. Freeware for 300-500 pins without board size restriction, you can pay small sums for incremental upgrades (more pins etc) when you need them etc.

[madworm]

Kicad probably changes too often

That is BS. The basic workflow hasn't changed in years.

Yes, they changed the library manager some time ago, but you still draw your schematic and layout in the very same way. You don't need to re-learn everything from scratch all the time.

[kripton2035]

+1 for diptrace
really easy to handle for the beginner, and upgradable later if your needs increase.
you must learn eagle and kicad too much before using it.

[HackedFridgeMagnet]

Go with Kicad, try it for free, just do a walkthrough on you tube.

I recommend using source control on your schematics, pcbs, libraries, and foot prints.

[PedroDaGr8]

It's like asking which color is better red, blue or yellow.

Yeah I know. But to someone who doesn't know anything about color, I can advise: Dont choose black, you see all the dust and a lot of cleaning traces on it :-)

Thanks a lot to all for your advices, keep posting.
Especially the 'absolute beginner and very sporadic user' arguments.

An excellent rebuttal to my analogy while still keeping the analogy. Points for that

So a bit more detail. The big 3 are as you have seen Eagle, DipTrace and KiCAD.

A quick summary.

Eagle:
This is the granddaddy of them all for hobbyists. By far the most used. A very competent and powerful program. I found it confusing and unintuitive, others swear by it. Never mastered making custom components. Some sites let you submit eagle files instead of Gerbers. The heavy usage means more custom libraries and easier to find support. Free version has a limit on board size and layers (not sure if power and ground layers are excluded or not).

KiCAD:
Open source and 100% free no restrictions. Like any open source project it has it's loud proponents and honestly it's not a bad program. Did not feel right for me and I gave up on it. Like many open source programs it felt a bit designed in chunks (dunno how else to explain it). It's also been a few years since I've tried it out. At that time it felt powerful but not polished. Works great in Linux.


DipTrace:
For me this one was my favorite. A quick trip through the quick start guide (about 1 hour) and I was making boards. The included component libraries are a bit strange, to say the least. This has been acknowledged by the developers and the recent update has started laying the groundwork for an entirely revised component library system. That being said, making custom parts libraries is amazingly simple (negating the advantage eagle has with more libraries). No restriction on board size. Restricted to 200 pins ( free non-profit use upgrade to 400 pins if you ask them or Dave here). Restricted to two signal layers, unlimited power and ground layers. Paid version offers many price points and upgrades are simple. Need a higher level? Just pay the difference in price between the version you have now and the one you want. Mac version uses wine, not native. Though the recent upgrade lays the groundwork for a native Mac version as well if that's important. For me DipTrace won out for ease of getting started, intuitiveness, etc. I've never bumped up against it's restrictions so far (I have the free 400 pin version)

Clearly, since I prefer DipTrace I know the most about it. Hopefully this helps you out a bit more.

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[Galenbo]

Big thanks to all for your input. Or output? Whatever. Your data. I also added a Poll to give it some visibility but your reasons stay more important.

I think I'll go for Diptrace, since Eplan 5.0 I have a fundamental aversion to unintuitive software.
The things you describe are the advantages I want.

The biggest disadvantage is that I don't build up any industry-standard-software knowledge, but I will use i so little that this would remain near-zero anyways.

[Simon]

I've been using KiCAD, any CAD package is a learning curve.

I just downloaded and am trying to use diptrace, YUK! I have to select the component AND footprint in one go, it's horrible and it means you have to know the exact part number and hope it's in the library. They thing taking out netlist and footprint association makes it easy ? BULL SHIT, I get a tiny preview of the footprint with no ability to know what I'm choosing exactly. Far from intuitive it's impossible as far as I'm concerned.

[hikariuk]

I've been using KiCAD, any CAD package is a learning curve.

I just downloaded and am trying to use diptrace, YUK! I have to select the component AND footprint in one go, it's horrible and it means you have to know the exact part number and hope it's in the library. They thing taking out netlist and footprint association makes it easy ? BULL SHIT, I get a tiny preview of the footprint with no ability to know what I'm choosing exactly. Far from intuitive it's impossible as far as I'm concerned.

DesignSpark does the same thing.  Although you can change the package at any point you want just by selecting the component on the schematic and changing the properties.  I think each package for a component can have a different part number too, although I'm still playing with it so I'm not sure.

[PedroDaGr8]

I've been using KiCAD, any CAD package is a learning curve.

I just downloaded and am trying to use diptrace, YUK! I have to select the component AND footprint in one go, it's horrible and it means you have to know the exact part number and hope it's in the library. They thing taking out netlist and footprint association makes it easy ? BULL SHIT, I get a tiny preview of the footprint with no ability to know what I'm choosing exactly. Far from intuitive it's impossible as far as I'm concerned.

As mentioned the library system is quirky. They are well aware of it, it will be modified in the  future. In fact I never bother browsing the libraries. I find searching much quicker (just make sure to select all libraries).

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[Simon]

It's been the industry standard for a reson, you choose the part number if you have to (symbol actually) and then you choose the footprint.

3 part numbers / symbols x 3 footprints = 9

3 part numbers / symbols + 3 footprints = 6

and of course the combinations of footprints and symbols is endless and heavily reduces the silly amounts of lists you have to scroll through to find what you want.

[rdl]

Since making your own parts is so incredibly easy in Diptrace, I always just make my own for everything. If, for example, I need a through hole DIP and an SOIC of the same device I'll just make two different parts. This also allows to make a schematic pattern that is chip centric instead of functional, which can be very helpful when making schematic for something which will be breadboarded or built on perfboard.