Electronics > Beginners
EE Pros: Is RPN still relevant?
bitseeker:
Jerry, sounds like a calculator thread in the making (if you haven't already). Sounds like you've got a great collection. Also interested to hear about your Swissmicros experience when you get it.
Elf:
--- Quote from: claytonedgeuk on March 04, 2017, 08:47:32 pm ---When the Swissmicros shows up...can you report back? I don't think there is even any attempt to conceal the inspiration...but would be keen on hearing how well it matches up.
--- End quote ---
So I received my SwissMicros DM15L late last week, and have been using it for a bit. I also bought an HP 12C 30th Anniversary Edition (financial calculator) new off Amazon, which is now made for HP by Kinpo in China.
Both have been amazingly handy so far. I forgot what I have been missing out on by using Windows Calculator. It took a fair bit of reading in multi-hundred page thick manuals to get up to speed, but once you remember what all the functions are and what registers they use, it becomes fairly natural to get around.
Having both the SwissMicros and the HP/Kinpo is an interesting comparison. I usually suspicious of off-shored manufacturing, but the HP/Kinpo 12C is actually pretty good. The 12C case is almost entirely plastic (excepting the LCD bezel), although I think they always were, but it still feels high quality. The beveled keys have a nice click to them, although it isn't what I would call stiff. It feels light, runs quickly, and has a minimum of bugs, especially compared to some of the other Kinpo calculators.
Conversely the SwissMicros calculator uses all flat keys, no bevel. I like the beveled keys of the HP better as far as the shape and appearance, but there is no deficit in quality in the SwissMicros version and it is quite usable. The key clicks on the SwissMicros are very positive; a bit stiffer than the 12C, but not in a bad way. Just different. The case is also mostly metal (a matte titanium), versus the HP's plastic. Between the keys and the case, the overall feeling is that the SwissMicros is much more rugged. It even feels heavier, although the difference is not that great (132g vs 122g as measured just now). The SwissMicros has a dot matrix LCD screen which I find a little less readable than the HP's segmented LCD, but with regular lighting it isn't a problem. The processor and emulation are very quick.
One major benefit that I am seeing for the SwissMicros over the HPs is that they provide a USB connection for easy firmware upgrades, and that the firmware seems to be completely bug free. If you are into programming it, they have also massively expanded the available memory. Apparently there is a new firmware for my 12C to fix the few remaining bugs, but it is not available for download from HP (it seems you need to know somebody) and you need some sort of rare pogo-pin JTAG cable to reprogram it. Not a very great customer experience given that the bugs were fixed almost 8 years ago but the fix never made it into production. Although, it seems like HP wants to forget about their calculator division entirely these days.
Overall I think SwissMicros did a pretty good job, and I will also buy their DM16L.
claytonedgeuk:
--- Quote from: Elf on March 15, 2017, 07:01:23 am ---
--- Quote from: claytonedgeuk on March 04, 2017, 08:47:32 pm ---When the Swissmicros shows up...can you report back? I don't think there is even any attempt to conceal the inspiration...but would be keen on hearing how well it matches up.
--- End quote ---
So I received my SwissMicros DM15L late last week, and have been using it for a bit. I also bought an HP 12C 30th Anniversary Edition (financial calculator) new off Amazon, which is now made for HP by Kinpo in China.
Both have been amazingly handy so far. I forgot what I have been missing out on by using Windows Calculator. It took a fair bit of reading in multi-hundred page thick manuals to get up to speed, but once you remember what all the functions are and what registers they use, it becomes fairly natural to get around.
Having both the SwissMicros and the HP/Kinpo is an interesting comparison. I usually suspicious of off-shored manufacturing, but the HP/Kinpo 12C is actually pretty good. The 12C case is almost entirely plastic (excepting the LCD bezel), although I think they always were, but it still feels high quality. The beveled keys have a nice click to them, although it isn't what I would call stiff. It feels light, runs quickly, and has a minimum of bugs, especially compared to some of the other Kinpo calculators.
Conversely the SwissMicros calculator uses all flat keys, no bevel. I like the beveled keys of the HP better as far as the shape and appearance, but there is no deficit in quality in the SwissMicros version and it is quite usable. The key clicks on the SwissMicros are very positive; a bit stiffer than the 12C, but not in a bad way. Just different. The case is also mostly metal (a matte titanium), versus the HP's plastic. Between the keys and the case, the overall feeling is that the SwissMicros is much more rugged. It even feels heavier, although the difference is not that great (132g vs 122g as measured just now). The SwissMicros has a dot matrix LCD screen which I find a little less readable than the HP's segmented LCD, but with regular lighting it isn't a problem. The processor and emulation are very quick.
One major benefit that I am seeing for the SwissMicros over the HPs is that they provide a USB connection for easy firmware upgrades, and that the firmware seems to be completely bug free. If you are into programming it, they have also massively expanded the available memory. Apparently there is a new firmware for my 12C to fix the few remaining bugs, but it is not available for download from HP (it seems you need to know somebody) and you need some sort of rare pogo-pin JTAG cable to reprogram it. Not a very great customer experience given that the bugs were fixed almost 8 years ago but the fix never made it into production. Although, it seems like HP wants to forget about their calculator division entirely these days.
Overall I think SwissMicros did a pretty good job, and I will also buy their DM16L.
--- End quote ---
Brilliant! Thanks Elf....Good to know the swissmicros are as good as they look. :)
I also have the 12c and it's what started me on this silly obsession. :)
Sent from my SM-G900F using Tapatalk
MBY:
Yes, I would say that RPN is very much still relevant today. It's a shame that it is not more mainstream than it is. Once you have learned RPN, you never want to go back to algebraic mode, especially not modern variants that somehow succeed in being stupider than older variants.
Its a difference between "easy to use" and "easy to learn". Often, these two gets confused and since algebraic mode are self-explanatory and easy to learn, people tend to stay with algebraich mode. But algebraic mode is NOT easy to use compared to RPN. You will save keystrokes (and thats important on a small interface such as a calculator), time and confusion as you develop a feel for correct entries, subtotals and validation of the results. Things like reciprocals and "out of order entry" of numbers gets much more straight forward with RPN and done correctly you never ever need to use parenthesis¹.
Nothing beats having a physical calculator, so don't bother with apps or desktop programs. There is a few ways to get hold of an RPN calculator. Vintage HPs and swiss micros are certainly quality, but the prices can be a setback and if calculator nerdiness is not you thing and you only want a calculator like everyone else to use on an occasional basis you can go for cheap. Searching eBay for RPN calculators and order by price yields many former Soviet calculators, mainly MK-61 and MK-52. They are both very decent calculators but the keyboard kind of sucks. You get used to it and learn how to handle it well, but at the beginning, expect unintentional missed and double-presses on the keyboard. So, if you are unfamiliar with both RPN and a el cheapo keyboard it can maybe be a problem to know whats wrong when unexpected results are given.
The newer HP-35s are perhaps the cheapest way to obtain a new western RPN calculator, but it have a few quirks that can drive you mad. Such as the "feature" (read "bug") that a number in floating point mode not always fits the screen and you have to scroll sideways. That's just sloppy design and inexcusable. You almost have to operate the damn thing in fixed point mode with a reduced number of decimals.
The HP-32Sii may be the best all-round RPN calculator, but sadly it typically costs at least $100. But if you happen to run by an working HP-32S at a lesser price, don't hesitate, buy it!
Learning RPN takes 10-15 minutes of hard work to commit it to your spinal cord². Then, you are free. Forever free. You won't lose your ability to use algebraic mode, but you won't prefer it and you will grunt and swear at the stupidity of it. :)
1) My English defies me here. What is parenthesis in plural? Parenthesises? Parenthesisies? Parenthesisessess? Any combo of 's or s'?
2) Or cerebellum I would guess.
Gyro:
--- Quote ---Nothing beats having a physical calculator, so don't bother with apps or desktop programs.
--- End quote ---
Well that was a bit of an old thread resurrection.
With regard to the "physical calculator", that rather depends on what you regard as 'physical' these days with smartphones etc. Personally I use Neocal on an old but perfectly serviceable Palm TX, perfectly physical to me.
Anyway, the point I want to make is that these devices can normally allow you to view the entire RPN stack, not just the X register. This is invaluable in both ease of learning and reducing errors in operation. There are very few 'physical' RPN calculators (especially the 'classics') that display more than one line.
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