Author Topic: Electronics in mineral oil ??????  (Read 29544 times)

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Offline JackOfVA

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #50 on: May 27, 2013, 11:06:32 am »
As far as human safety of mineral oil goes, you will find it stocked at drugstores in a grade suitable for human consumption. (It's a laxative.) 

Mineral Oil has a flash point of 170C (335F), and a boiling point of 310C (590F) A typical transformer oil (Conoco/Phillips 76 Transformer Oi) has a flash point not much different > 293°F / > 145°C. As I understand it, neither are classified flammable under the relevant US classification scheme because the flash point exceeds 100C/212F.

According to Conoco 76 Transformer Oil MSDS, you can drink it as well: "Ingestion (Swallowing): No harmful effects expected from ingestion."

Although mineral oil may not be as good as transformer oil for heat conductivity, it's still quite usable as a coolant. Heathkit made, starting in the 1960's, a high power 50 ohm transmitter load, the "Cantenna" consisting of a carborundum resistor mounted on the lid of a 1 gallon paint can. The purchaser assembled the kit and locally procured a gallon of either mineral oil or transformer oil to fill the can. http://www.repeater-builder.com/test-equipment/heath/hn-31-cantenna.pdf

Heath's time versus dissipation plot below shows the difference between mineral oil and transformer oil. Over a long enough time, no difference, but a considerable short term difference.

Higher quality dummy loads, such as those manufactured by Bird Electronics, use silicon-based oil as I understand it. Not sure whether that was the case in the 1950's though.

I have a Cantenna that's 45 years old, still has its original fill of mineral oil. Not the worlds best dummy load, but certainly adequate for many tasks.
 

Offline ChrisGreece52

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #51 on: May 27, 2013, 12:21:20 pm »
As far as human safety of mineral oil goes, you will find it stocked at drugstores in a grade suitable for human consumption. (It's a laxative.) 

Mineral Oil has a flash point of 170C (335F), and a boiling point of 310C (590F) A typical transformer oil (Conoco/Phillips 76 Transformer Oi) has a flash point not much different > 293°F / > 145°C. As I understand it, neither are classified flammable under the relevant US classification scheme because the flash point exceeds 100C/212F.

According to Conoco 76 Transformer Oil MSDS, you can drink it as well: "Ingestion (Swallowing): No harmful effects expected from ingestion."

Although mineral oil may not be as good as transformer oil for heat conductivity, it's still quite usable as a coolant. Heathkit made, starting in the 1960's, a high power 50 ohm transmitter load, the "Cantenna" consisting of a carborundum resistor mounted on the lid of a 1 gallon paint can. The purchaser assembled the kit and locally procured a gallon of either mineral oil or transformer oil to fill the can. http://www.repeater-builder.com/test-equipment/heath/hn-31-cantenna.pdf

Heath's time versus dissipation plot below shows the difference between mineral oil and transformer oil. Over a long enough time, no difference, but a considerable short term difference.

Higher quality dummy loads, such as those manufactured by Bird Electronics, use silicon-based oil as I understand it. Not sure whether that was the case in the 1950's though.

I have a Cantenna that's 45 years old, still has its original fill of mineral oil. Not the worlds best dummy load, but certainly adequate for many tasks.
Oh ok then :D
 

Offline SeanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #52 on: May 27, 2013, 04:23:19 pm »
My Kenwood Dummy load lost part of the oil fill from years of cycling. Topped it up ( was still factory sealed, losses are from weeping past the PL259 plug seals) with around 200ml of silicone oil and it works well again without gurgling.
 

Offline ddavidebor

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Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #53 on: May 27, 2013, 04:27:57 pm »
One of the old cray supercomputer was liquid cooled with the fluid in direct contact with the ic and the board.

I suppose 3M still made that fluid
Davide Bortolami,
Fermium LTD
 

Offline kfitch42

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Offline G7PSK

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #55 on: May 27, 2013, 05:28:47 pm »
Transformer oil does not burn very well, I had a 25 liter drum to top up a welding transformer years ago. Just recently I lit a bonfire that was a bit damp so I looked around for some wast oil which is what I would normally use but could not find any so I tried the remains of the transformer oil, it would not burn even when mixed with some petrol and diesel once the petrol burned off it left the transformer oil.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #56 on: May 27, 2013, 05:44:34 pm »
Transformer oil does not burn very well, I had a 25 liter drum to top up a welding transformer years ago. Just recently I lit a bonfire that was a bit damp so I looked around for some wast oil which is what I would normally use but could not find any so I tried the remains of the transformer oil, it would not burn even when mixed with some petrol and diesel once the petrol burned off it left the transformer oil.

This is because, against intuition, liquid does not burn. What actually burns when you set fire to petrol or alcohol is the vapor coming off the surface of the liquid. If you have a heavy oil like transformer oil there is so little vapor coming off the surface of the liquid that it cannot form a flammable mixture with the air and so it cannot make a flame.

When it is desired to burn heavy oil there are two possibilities. One possibility is to pass the oil through a heating coil on the way to the burner so it has a much higher vapor pressure before reaching the flame. Another possibility is to atomize the oil into fine droplets before spraying it into the flame. This way the existing flame will heat up the droplets and evaporate them so they can burn. It is not uncommon to use both approaches at the same time--preheat the oil and then atomize it at the burner.
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Offline SeanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #57 on: May 27, 2013, 05:57:41 pm »
Jet fuel is pretty good at putting out fires, and to get it to burn takes a bit of work. Soak paper in it, have an unsoaked bit to act as a wick and light it. It takes a while to get hot enough to carry on vapourising on it's own heat, but when it does it burns really well. We used it as a firelighter, easy enough to tap the nearest aircraft fuel system water collector for a half litre to use. Another use was as a cleaner for PCB's, it removed a lot of gunk and then was easy to remove with alcohol, also an aircraft fluid.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #58 on: May 27, 2013, 08:39:25 pm »
Yes, jet fuel is essentially kerosene, which is a petroleum distillate heavier than gasoline but lighter than fuel oil. Distilled petroleum spirits are a notably good solvent. They are the key component of those cleaning products like "Goof Off" or "Oops!" that you find here in America, and also the main component of "white spirit" or "clear mineral spirit" that is also a good cleaner.
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Offline ChrisGreece52

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #59 on: May 27, 2013, 09:05:24 pm »
Yes, jet fuel is essentially kerosene, which is a petroleum distillate heavier than gasoline but lighter than fuel oil. Distilled petroleum spirits are a notably good solvent. They are the key component of those cleaning products like "Goof Off" or "Oops!" that you find here in America, and also the main component of "white spirit" or "clear mineral spirit" that is also a good cleaner.
I think with this question we will go far from the topic but then how it is used by airplanes ???
 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2013, 09:10:44 pm »
It's just hard to ignite. It burns quite well once it does ignite, though...
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Offline ChrisGreece52

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2013, 09:14:09 pm »
It's just hard to ignite. It burns quite well once it does ignite, though...
Oh ok :D
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2013, 09:14:18 pm »
Yes, jet fuel is essentially kerosene, which is a petroleum distillate heavier than gasoline but lighter than fuel oil. Distilled petroleum spirits are a notably good solvent. They are the key component of those cleaning products like "Goof Off" or "Oops!" that you find here in America, and also the main component of "white spirit" or "clear mineral spirit" that is also a good cleaner.
I think with this question we will go far from the topic but then how it is used by airplanes ???

It keeps the engines very clean, obviously  ;)

I'm not sure of the nature of your question? Jet fuel is burned in jet engines to produce heat and ultimately thrust to make the plane move. Look up "jet engine" or "gas turbine" to get more information about how such engines work.

Inside a jet engine there is a combustion chamber where the fuel is injected as a fine spray into the hot flame. The hot flame evaporates the fuel allowing it to mix with air and burn, continuing the process.
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Offline ChrisGreece52

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #63 on: May 27, 2013, 09:18:52 pm »
Yes, jet fuel is essentially kerosene, which is a petroleum distillate heavier than gasoline but lighter than fuel oil. Distilled petroleum spirits are a notably good solvent. They are the key component of those cleaning products like "Goof Off" or "Oops!" that you find here in America, and also the main component of "white spirit" or "clear mineral spirit" that is also a good cleaner.
I think with this question we will go far from the topic but then how it is used by airplanes ???

It keeps the engines very clean, obviously  ;)

I'm not sure of the nature of your question? Jet fuel is burned in jet engines to produce heat and ultimately thrust to make the plane move. Look up "jet engine" or "gas turbine" to get more information about how such engines work.

Inside a jet engine there is a combustion chamber where the fuel is injected as a fine spray into the hot flame. The hot flame evaporates the fuel allowing it to mix with air and burn, continuing the process.
OHHHHH ok but your description reminded me the Thermal engines as we call them (free translation) the ones which i am taking exams on tomorow :D (if this name did not sounded familiar we are studying single particle gasses "perfect gases" and examining their use inside a machine we also study the Carnot machine :D
* I KNOW THAT WAS OFF TOPIC :D *
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #64 on: May 27, 2013, 09:31:27 pm »
OHHHHH ok but your description reminded me the Thermal engines as we call them (free translation) the ones which i am taking exams on tomorow :D (if this name did not sounded familiar we are studying single particle gasses "perfect gases" and examining their use inside a machine we also study the Carnot machine :D
* I KNOW THAT WAS OFF TOPIC :D *

The English translation would be heat engine. The Carnot cycle is a classic cycle studied in thermodynamics as it is represents the most efficient system possible for converting heat into work.

There are many heat engine cycles possible. The jet engine or gas turbine uses the Brayton cycle, for example.

I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline ChrisGreece52

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #65 on: May 27, 2013, 09:39:13 pm »
OHHHHH ok but your description reminded me the Thermal engines as we call them (free translation) the ones which i am taking exams on tomorow :D (if this name did not sounded familiar we are studying single particle gasses "perfect gases" and examining their use inside a machine we also study the Carnot machine :D
* I KNOW THAT WAS OFF TOPIC :D *

The English translation would be heat engine. The Carnot cycle is a classic cycle studied in thermodynamics as it is represents the most efficient system possible for converting heat into work.

There are many heat engine cycles possible. The jet engine or gas turbine uses the Brayton cycle, for example.
Now That i mean to say :P and thanks for your help with the translation and your skill to understand me :D
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #66 on: May 27, 2013, 09:56:55 pm »
Well good luck with your exams! Thermodynamics is a subject that gives many people a headache  :)
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Offline ChrisGreece52

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Re: Electronics in mineral oil ??????
« Reply #67 on: May 27, 2013, 10:00:41 pm »
Well good luck with your exams! Thermodynamics is a subject that gives many people a headache  :)
Well it gave me one thats for sure i am still a bit defensive about this but ill do fine :D anyways goodnight and talk to you i got my answer to my oil PC question ill do a bit of reasearch on the combustion engines and ill be fine :D
And thank you and all of the othe members that helped me with this :P
 


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