help choosing in circuit cap ESR/LCR meter, a better DMM & entry level scope?

[OriginalDan]

gday looking for a ESR/LCR meter to test capacitors in circuit, a better multi meter and a beginner oscilloscope

trying to learn how to diagnose/repair 80s-90s PCs motherboards, PSUs, synthesizers, also general repairs some modern TVs/music equipment, DIY synth projects.
and have a garage full of amplifiers to learn from, the end game figuring out enough to fix up those deadly CRTs lol

my multi meters currently DT830D and DT830B. looking at the eev BM branded ones or the sanwa pm3?

with ESR/LCR should i get a cheap ESR for basic in circuit dead or not tests, then get a LCR separately for more accurate out of circuit tests or not worry about LCR at all yet?
tough trying to pick one out of the more commonly recommended on the fourm, some are more difficult to source than others:

DER EE DE-5000 $168aud with TL21 and TL32 or $280aud for the complete set, dunno why the tweezers nearly cost as much as the unit? could only find em on Ebay Japan listings. the short leads don't seem ideal looks like there's mods but can throw off the readings?

BSIDE ESR02PRO $37aud looks like all the other similarly priced clones but atleast has some 50v discharge protection

XJW01 $117 good variety of attachments, big brother to all the cheapy clones?

BobParkers Blue1assembled is $213aud from Malaysia the sites selling them look insanely out of date and would not trust using a credit card on em lol, weird that it's an aussie maker but nobody in aus seems to sell em :/ doesn't appear the Blue v2 is available anywhere? only ohm reading though

MESR-100 v1 $67aud  v2 $84aud version 2 added in circuit testing? looked like others used v1 to test in circuit fine

Atlas ESR70 $142aud recommended a lot but some suggest getting the LCR40 with it? which would be roughly $305aud for both
has 50v protection?
its kinda crazy for the price there's no backlit screen on this or most of em considering ya might be at odd angles, atleast with a longer lead its fine but the shorter one would get awkward fast

is there a common glue for keeping caps in place? i read some hotglues can turn acidic over time

Oscilloscopes: like a dummy i jumped the gun and got a HP 54845A Infinium scope at auction before i realized its size(rip shipping fees) and maintenance ital likely need, then saw Daves video saying it's not an everyday scope 
trying to find a more beginner friendly scope for now, hopefully when it arrives i can get it fixed up and trade/sell towards another

TechCornerTV has a really helpful video going over 5 models, should i go for one with a function generator? seems itad be helpful for audio but i could get that later on. Looked into those usb scopes but knowing my dumbass id fry my lappy along with it lol.
FNIRSI 1014D $239
OWON SDS1102 $290 no function generator
Hantek DSO2D10 $308

First major repair attempt is a 2013 Samsung UA40F6400AM tvs psu board: L42X1QV_DSM (image 7.27mb 4600x3456)
how do you tell if a board is lead or lead free solder? the psu board looks like a fairly old design but i don't know if every company switched to lead free if at all by 2013?
TV clicks when powered, fuses continuity test fine, no bulging/leaky caps, looking at other boards online they replace the 3x 200v 68uF and sometimes 2x 450v 68uF unless they aren't repairs but samsung using different brands?
With the caps looking fine that pushed me to seek out proper tools for these types of repairs.
Attached the only schematic i could find but its low quality unfortunately, Got it from elektrotanya hopefully okay to attach here otherwise let me know and ill remove it.
edit: removed the attached schematic didn't seem to match. i did however find another blog site that lists a slight variant: LX42X1Q DHS BN44-00622B variant, slightly different layout but much more clear schematics if that helps.
might as well add the cap list for anyone who's trying to repair this and stumbles into this post since most of them where glued with the specs hidden: 2x 25v 390uF, 4x 350v 22uF, 1x 450v 10uF, 2x 450v 68uF, 3x 200v 68uF, 1x 25v 560uF, 2x 50v 47uf, 2x 50v 10uf, 1x 50v 22uf

any suggestions and assistance is greatly appreciated.

[rstofer]

There are two commonly recommended scopes:  The Rigol DS1054Z (unlocked to 100 MHz bandwidth) and the Siglent SDS 1104X-E (unlocked to 200 MHz BW).  USB scopes are not always highly regarded.  I have the Rigol but I bought it before the Siglent came out.  Today, I would buy the Siglent.

Two channel scopes are a little cheaper but many of the digital players want as many channels as possible.  Including me...

I have no idea what the pricing looks like for Australia but Amazon US has the Rigol for $419 USD and the Siglent for $499 USD.  It seems to me the DS1054Z was priced at $349 the last time I looked.  Probably opportunistic pricing...

The forum Search feature will bring up discussions re: these scopes.

[bdunham7]

gday looking for a ESR/LCR meter to test capacitors in circuit, a better multi meter and a beginner oscilloscope

Simple things first:

Unless you are severely budget restricted, your beginner scope is the Siglent SDS1104X-E.

For multimeters, it is probably not possible to find a DMM that is not better than what you have now.  Any of the EEVBlog models would be fine.  Since everyone ends up wanting more than one DMM after a while, just start with the BM235.  And don't put lithium batteries into it.

Now the LCR meter.  "In circuit" testing implies using a test signal that is below the voltage that semiconductor junctions will start to conduct.  I don't know the specs of any of the devices you mention, but the only handheld LCR meter that I know of that does this well is the BK Precision (Motec) 885/886 series--which are expensive and discontinued.  They have selectable stimulus levels of 1V, 250mV and 50mV.  50mV allows you to test at least some capacitors in circuit, but not all.  It just depends on the circuit.  I have an 886, it works very well and seems quite accurate, but I would question how necessary it is to do 'in circuit' testing.  I almost never do. 

Once you abandon the idea of 'in-circuit' testing, there are plenty of decent LCR meters.  Others here seem to like the DER EE DE-5000.  You might even want to get one of those cheap Mega328-based M-testers as well.  I wouldn't recommend a cheap ESR-only type tester as I don't think they get you anywhere in the troubleshooting process.

[OriginalDan]

Rigol DS1054Z and the Siglent SDS 1104X-E
Two channel scopes are a little cheaper but many of the digital players want as many channels as possible.  Including me...

thanks, reading up on 2channel vs more and appears a 4channel would be helpful
the Rigol DS1054Z is $650aud new, locally secondhand around $550 or $440aud ish from japan auctions

the Siglent SDS-1104X-U is around$550-$600aud new, can't find any secondhand pricing info from a quick search.

both are a bit above my budget at the moment but I've learned the lesson "buy cheap buy twice" a number of times now, so its probably good idea to save for a proper one.
ill keep an eye on deals/secondhand, hopefully when the Infinium scope arrives i can trade/sell towards one here.

Simple things first: Unless you are severely budget restricted, your beginner scope is the Siglent SDS1104X-E.

For multimeters, it is probably not possible to find a DMM that is not better than what you have now.  Any of the EEVBlog models would be fine.  Since everyone ends up wanting more than one DMM after a while, just start with the BM235.  And don't put lithium batteries into it.

thanks it certainly seemed like theres not a lot of savings vs the cheaper multimeters. Curious do people get multiple meters for individual specific tasks or for multiple readings at once?

Now the LCR meter.  "In circuit" testing implies using a test signal that is below the voltage that semiconductor junctions will start to conduct.  I don't know the specs of any of the devices you mention, but the only handheld LCR meter that I know of that does this well is the BK Precision (Motec) 885/886 series--which are expensive and discontinued.  They have selectable stimulus levels of 1V, 250mV and 50mV.  50mV allows you to test at least some capacitors in circuit, but not all.  It just depends on the circuit.  I have an 886, it works very well and seems quite accurate, but I would question how necessary it is to do 'in circuit' testing.  I almost never do.

Once you abandon the idea of 'in-circuit' testing, there are plenty of decent LCR meters.  Others here seem to like the DER EE DE-5000.  You might even want to get one of those cheap Mega328-based M-testers as well.  I wouldn't recommend a cheap ESR-only type tester as I don't think they get you anywhere in the troubleshooting process.

interesting. seems the B&K Precision 880 might've replaced the 885/886? 880 is about $880aud lol there's also 878B around $500aud both pretty wildly outta my budget for just testing caps, it's mainly to get a quick idea if a cap is dead or not without needing to desolder everything and test em all individually then resolder if 90% of em are fine. some earlier pc motherboards can have 20+caps on em or some of the 00s macs with nightmarish 40+

[wizard69]

Here is my point of view:

DMM.   You have two choices in my mind for a higher quality DMM

• Buy a meter from EEVBlog to support the finest EE oriented blog on the net.
• Buy a Fluke.

However if you have nay meters at all I would put this  purchase on the back burner.

As for the ESR meter I don't have personal experience here but the meter commonly suggested is the DE-5000.   I wouldn't bother with an in circuit meter if you are just building up a lab.   In fact if you can find a deal on a used meter, I might suggest a desktop unit from one of the electrical instrument companies, to go that route.   

As far as as scope go, don't get hung up on a "beginner friendly scope" whatever that means.   A scope can easily become your primary service instrument, from my perspective you can grow into any scope.   So it is better to buy one that will likely cover all of your repair needs for the reasonable future.   This becomes an issue of how much to budget but again from my perspective if this is your primary tool it should get the biggest proportion of your budget.   I'd seriously consider increasing your budget here even if that means no other instruments this year.   For example a Rigol DS1104Z might be a better scope to grow into as it has some MSO capabilities which may be useful to you.

As for other support instruments you can get by with almost anything generating an audio signal for audio equipment repair.   I'd suggest spreading your test and repair bench out over a couple of years and use improvised equipment to get started.  This does a couple of things for you, one is that you learn what is really important for you feature wise.   Second you avoid wasting money on possibly the wrong type of expensive hardware.   The bonus item is that you spread out your purchases and can take advantage of used equipment as it becomes available.

[MikeK]

the Siglent SDS-1104X-U is around$550-$600aud new, can't find any secondhand pricing info from a quick search.

Pay attention to the model #.  The -U model is not the one recommended above.

[james_s]

thanks, reading up on 2channel vs more and appears a 4channel would be helpful
the Rigol DS1054Z is $650aud new, locally secondhand around $550 or $440aud ish from japan auctions

the Siglent SDS-1104X-U is around$550-$600aud new, can't find any secondhand pricing info from a quick search.

both are a bit above my budget at the moment but I've learned the lesson "buy cheap buy twice" a number of times now, so its probably good idea to save for a proper one.
ill keep an eye on deals/secondhand, hopefully when the Infinium scope arrives i can trade/sell towards one here.

The 54845A is a nice instrument, 1.5GHz bandwidth is quite high end even by modern standards. Somebody who needs this performance might be willing to trade you straight across for a less capable but newer and smaller scope like the Rigol or Siglent. You could also just bite the bullet and learn to use the HP scope since you already have it, but the space thing is an issue. I have a TDS784C that I absolutely love but it is a beast and lives permanently on the rack above my bench. For day to day use I have a TDS3000 lunchbox that is far more portable.

IMHO in most cases the best scope for the job is often the one you already own, and the next best is the one you can afford.

[Doctorandus_P]

As said before, both Rigol and Siglent make quite good scopes for a reasonable price, and that makes them very popular.
Fnirsi is utter garbage. If someone tries to give you one for free he probably wants tho thwart your advance in electronics.
They have horrible aliasing artifacts at some frequencies, and they bluntly lie about the sample rate. Frontend also does not go down to low voltages. Add these things together, and you just can't trust what you see on your scope screen.

Owon, Hantek Uni-T, and maybe some more have budget scopes that are quite decent and these may be an option if you don't want to spend the money for a Rigol or Siglent.
GW Instek has had quite a lot of issues with their user interface, but I do not know their current state of affairs. Tread carefully there.

But do a bit of research, I just saw that the Rigol DS1052E is still new available for over EUR300. That was a nice scope 10 years ago, but these days I won't pay much more then EUR100 for it, either second hand or new. The resolution of the LCD is quite low (much lower then from newer scopes) and it does not react very fast, which makes you easily miss measurements.

Personally I would probably buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E Oscilloscope (EUR 500) or  Siglent SDS1202X-E (EUR 400) if two channels is enough. You can shave off a few hundred EUR, but is that really important for an Oscilloscope that you are probably going to use for 10 years or more? I would not even consider the -U versions from Siglent. They've cut out an ADC and lack the Ethernet port, and maybe some more shortcuts.

And they are popular (and for good reasons). If you decide you need a "better" scope after a few years, you can probably get a good price for your old scope on the second hand market.

[bateau020]

For in-circuit LCR, there are some tweezers that do the job very well. Personally got the LCR Pro1 Plus, but many others will be suitable. Just keep the test voltage below 0.5V. Use the tweezers as an in-circuit tester, and potentially use the DE-5000 for out of circuit, although I tend to relegate the "big guy" to 4 wire measurements, with the clips. Tweezers are less suited for low milliohms.

how do you tell if a board is lead or lead free solder? the psu board looks like a fairly old design but i don't know if every company switched to lead free if at all by 2013?

Some will curse me over it, but just don't bother. Lead free is much harder to desolder, so just add leaded solder before desoldering, and clean up afterwards with solder wick. Adding leaded solder adds flux and lowers the overall melting point, so win-win here. Then for the repair, use whatever suits you. Which may be leaded solder

[OriginalDan]

Buy a meter from EEVBlog to support the finest EE oriented blog on the net. Buy a Fluke.
However if you have nay meters at all I would put this  purchase on the back burner.

That's fair. ill stick to one of eevblogs meters seems the best priced from a proper brand anyway.

As for the ESR meter I don't have personal experience here but the meter commonly suggested is the DE-5000.   I wouldn't bother with an in circuit meter if you are just building up a lab.   In fact if you can find a deal on a used meter, I might suggest a desktop unit from one of the electrical instrument companies, to go that route.

Yeah the more i looked into this seemed measuring in circuit is a good way of frying meters with anything not discharged lol. there was a 'Capacitor Wizard' claiming in circuit but was around $250aud before tax and reading reviews some died on them in a few days, think it only partially 'protects' up to 200v but yeah not worth it for the asking price it seems.
from watching repair videos of similar bits I've collected its 9 times outta 10 the capacitors so just assumed a proper lcr/esr setup would be a good start

I've seen some HP 4274A and 4261A lcr meters on japan auctions for cheap but shipping might be killer and it's difficult to know the actual approximate value vs overpaying for the older gear.
besides the fourm and ebay anywhere else to keep an eye on for secondhand gear? and any particular older bench models to look out for?
otherwise ill keep watching for deals/sales on a de-5000

As far as a scope go, don't get hung up on a "beginner friendly scope" whatever that means.   A scope can easily become your primary service instrument, from my perspective you can grow into any scope.   So it is better to buy one that will likely cover all of your repair needs for the reasonable future.   This becomes an issue of how much to budget but again from my perspective if this is your primary tool it should get the biggest proportion of your budget.   I'd seriously consider increasing your budget here even if that means no other instruments this year.   For example a Rigol DS1104Z might be a better scope to grow into as it has some MSO capabilities which may be useful to you.
As for other support instruments you can get by with almost anything generating an audio signal for audio equipment repair.   I'd suggest spreading your test and repair bench out over a couple of years and use improvised equipment to get started.  This does a couple of things for you, one is that you learn what is really important for you feature wise.   Second you avoid wasting money on possibly the wrong type of expensive hardware.   The bonus item is that you spread out your purchases and can take advantage of used equipment as it becomes available.

excellent points, spacing out over years adjusting to my skill level sounds good, i looked into learning electronics only a year ago been slowly collecting bits n pieces since.
Took months to find an iron, originally everyone recommended the fx888d only after i bought one i saw rossmans video on it and read about how much of a pain it is with motherboards so returned it and got an AiXun T3A for the same price, on the cheaper end the T12 clones might've been fine for me but with the 245 tip selection and wanting to learn modern repair later on i figured why not.

Pay attention to the model #.  The -U model is not the one recommended above.

dunno how i missed that must not have copied the full num. thanks

The 54845A is a nice instrument, 1.5GHz bandwidth is quite high end even by modern standards. Somebody who needs this performance might be willing to trade you straight across for a less capable but newer and smaller scope like the Rigol or Siglent. You could also just bite the bullet and learn to use the HP scope since you already have it, but the space thing is an issue. I have a TDS784C that I absolutely love but it is a beast and lives permanently on the rack above my bench. For day to day use I have a TDS3000 lunchbox that is far more portable.
IMHO in most cases the best scope for the job is often the one you already own, and the next best is the one you can afford.

good points, my bench real estate is somewhat limited also. I'm not certain if the infiniium is 100% working won it for $293 got it mixed up thinking it was another lunchbox style smaller sized one i was also bidding for at the time lol, I can store it for 45days before instructing it for shipping then have another 30days for pay for shipment but i could be looking at anywhere from 250to450+ so ill try to get it fixed up as best i can.
The PC portion should be straight forward since it's AMD K6 based of which I've got lots of spares for that era, it's the custom boards that might be tough.
listing showed start up with "CMOS Battery Low" and "Type Wrong" best case it's just the mobos battery needs changing and it can boot fine, hopefully a clean will get the self tests going but if it's anything worse than bad caps or psu i won't be able to do much.
don't bid at 2am folks haha.

As said before, both Rigol and Siglent make quite good scopes for a reasonable price, and that makes them very popular.
Fnirsi is utter garbage. If someone tries to give you one for free he probably wants tho thwart your advance in electronics.
They have horrible aliasing artifacts at some frequencies, and they bluntly lie about the sample rate. Frontend also does not go down to low voltages. Add these things together, and you just can't trust what you see on your scope screen.
Owon, Hantek Uni-T, and maybe some more have budget scopes that are quite decent and these may be an option if you don't want to spend the money for a Rigol or Siglent.
GW Instek has had quite a lot of issues with their user interface, but I do not know their current state of affairs. Tread carefully there.

But do a bit of research, I just saw that the Rigol DS1052E is still new available for over EUR300. That was a nice scope 10 years ago, but these days I won't pay much more then EUR100 for it, either second hand or new. The resolution of the LCD is quite low (much lower then from newer scopes) and it does not react very fast, which makes you easily miss measurements.

Personally I would probably buy the Siglent SDS1104X-E Oscilloscope (EUR 500) or  Siglent SDS1202X-E (EUR 400) if two channels is enough. You can shave off a few hundred EUR, but is that really important for an Oscilloscope that you are probably going to use for 10 years or more? I would not even consider the -U versions from Siglent. They've cut out an ADC and lack the Ethernet port, and maybe some more shortcuts.

And they are popular (and for good reasons). If you decide you need a "better" scope after a few years, you can probably get a good price for your old scope on the second hand market.

yeah that was a worry getting a scope that gives out bad readings regardless of my input. man that Rigol DS1052E is $530aud here 10years ago? i guess they really retain their value
originally looked at vintage scopes as one of eevblogs videos mentioned as a good starter scope but post covid they've all shot up to 200-300aud+ a pop, just doesn't seem worth it if they where 20-50$ a couple years ago.

man that's weird the SDS1104X-E is $625 and the SDS1202X-E is $695 before tax, from the same store no discounts or anything lol?
but yeah with the longevity in mind ill aim for the Rigol or Siglent whichever pops up for cheaper though Rigol with MSO certainly sounds more useful down the line

For in-circuit LCR, there are some tweezers that do the job very well. Personally got the LCR Pro1 Plus, but many others will be suitable. Just keep the test voltage below 0.5V. Use the tweezers as an in-circuit tester, and potentially use the DE-5000 for out of circuit, although I tend to relegate the "big guy" to 4 wire measurements, with the clips. Tweezers are less suited for low milliohms.

interesting haven't come across that one before though its out of my price range for now at $450aud ill for sure look it again down the road.

Some will curse me over it, but just don't bother. Lead free is much harder to desolder, so just add leaded solder before desoldering, and clean up afterwards with solder wick. Adding leaded solder adds flux and lowers the overall melting point, so win-win here. Then for the repair, use whatever suits you. Which may be leaded solder

thanks, while the tv psu board above is just a learner test would you go about this the same way modern smaller electronics? like a laptops/phones etc?

[wizard69]

It has been many decades since I first started in with electronics, frankly I didn't have the possibility to get quality anything.   I literally started with crappy analog meters that my father had that where very beat up from use in HVAC work.   So I can say easily that it is possible to get on board with crappy meters and even today's lowest end DMM will beat the crap I started with.   If you have anything that works and is reasonably accurate I'd put off a meter upgrade for some time.   Also a "bench" meter, at the bench, is more user friendly when working at a bench so something to consider long term.

If you already have a scope, especially one of the caliber you mentioned, id spend the time learning to use it.  That is if it works properly.   Generally even on advanced scopes the basic scope functionality is easy to get to.   On the other hand what was once advanced, these days may be considered featureless.   I never even had a chance to get a scope in those early years and can really appreciate how helpful they can be to someone new to electronics.  This is why I see the solution for the scope being top priority, I just not sure I'd dismiss the one you already have.   Lets face it a modern scope will be full of all sorts of capabilities that the old scopes don't have.   I still use old Tek scopes at work that are on scope carts simply because the scope cart works well in the context of automation electronics were almost any decent scope will work.   You can't dismiss an old scope but at the same time they are old and the industry has changed a lot just about every decade.

[taste_tester]

I replaced a BSIDE ESR02PRO  with a DER EE DE5000 and i am very glad i did since i frequently use it. I find i don't care about ESR as much as I thought I did, and measuring a capacitor at different frequencies usually is more telling than what the ATMega based units put out.

[OriginalDan]

.. If you have anything that works and is reasonably accurate I'd put off a meter upgrade for some time.   Also a "bench" meter, at the bench, is more user friendly when working at a bench so something to consider long term..

that's fair is there any recommended bench meters to keep an eye on? I've only looked into all the portable ones so far didn't think to look at the bench ones.

If you already have a scope, especially one of the caliber you mentioned, id spend the time learning to use it.  That is if it works properly.. ..can really appreciate how helpful they can be to someone new to electronics.  This is why I see the solution for the scope being top priority, I just not sure I'd dismiss the one you already have

thanks ill certainly try it but ill have to pay a lot more than anticipated for it, so i might need to resell it out of necessity unfortunately and it's about 3-4months away from being in country. Luckily there's a couple videos on the infinium one of which showed issues with self test until he did a simple clean then it passed fine so hopefully similar case here though the exterior is quite banged up. if i run into trouble ill post about it here though.

didn't know just how important oscilloscopes where to repair i guess from the retro channels i follow mainly Adrian's Digital Basement and RMC the cave Adrien occasionally uses a scope but RMC i don't think I've seen one used, granted they're fixing up much older gear and I'd love to learn to repair newer stuff but yeah seems i underestimated how important the scope is and should adjust my budget accordingly

I replaced a BSIDE ESR02PRO  with a DER EE DE5000 and i am very glad i did since i frequently use it. I find i don't care about ESR as much as I thought I did, and measuring a capacitor at different frequencies usually is more telling than what the ATMega based units put out.

thanks, certainly appears to be the consensus. do you use the tweezers addon much? it's a lot cheaper to buy without it

[taste_tester]

I replaced a BSIDE ESR02PRO  with a DER EE DE5000 and i am very glad i did since i frequently use it. I find i don't care about ESR as much as I thought I did, and measuring a capacitor at different frequencies usually is more telling than what the ATMega based units put out.

thanks, certainly appears to be the consensus. do you use the tweezers addon much? it's a lot cheaper to buy without it

No but consider that I do relatively little amount of surface mount repair,  I don't even have tweezer probes for my DMM's; i just use one of my finer needle point leads when I need to test that. I guess I can use the same kind of test leads next time i want to use this LCR meter with some surface mount. I got the kit that included TL21 and TL23, the small alligator clips and ground protection wire.    Since I only use it on capacitors i already removed from circuit and discharged, the small alligator clip works fine for me.


edit: I would mention that as far as scopes, I have one of the low end Siglents that I guess is the same as a cheap Rigol or something like that, i never even replaced the firmware but i think it's very good for my needs. Mine is 2 or 3 years old and still working fine.  I have a friend who's been running his repair shop longer than me, a year or two ago he finally replaced his old analog scope he loved with one of these cheap Siglent or Rigol and he has no complaints although he was very worried about it not reacting fast enough for his liking after being so used to analog.  I think you need some pretty serious scope requirements for a unit which costs like $200-300USD to not be more than adequate.

[GotZapped]

DER EE DE-5000 $168aud with TL21 and TL32 or $280aud for the complete set, dunno why the tweezers nearly cost as much as the unit? could only find em on Ebay Japan listings. the short leads don't seem ideal looks like there's mods but can throw off the readings?

Hi OriginalDan,

Where did you get the AUD prices for the DE-5000 with TL21 and TL32 and the compete set (DE-5000U) from?

I've been searching ebay, etc, but the prices are higher....inflation? The complete kit with case seems to be scarce and expensive.

Cheers

[buta]

I paid USD$118 inc GST in July with TL-21 and TL-23

[tautech]

I would not even consider the -U versions from Siglent. They've cut out an ADC and lack the Ethernet port, and maybe some more shortcuts.

This information is very wrong.

SDS1104X-U is a 100 MHz design so only requires a single ADC to meet Nyquist with all channels active at full BW.
Very different to the 4ch X-E models that are a 200 MHz design which to meet Nyquist they certainly require 2 ADC's however when assigning a channel to each ADC max sampling rate and memory depth are maintained.

Both SDS1104X-E and the 4ch X-E models DO have a LAN port and both series can use the free PC SW EasyScopeX via a LAN our USB connection however only the 4ch X-E's have a webserver.

SDS1104X-U have a reduced feature set and a $100 lesser price tag and apart from the more advanced features you might not know if you were driving a SDS1104X-U or SDS11/1204X-E or for that matter the 2ch 200 MHz SDS1202X-E.
Those ^ represent 3 model series for which the UI is very similar however the feature sets are distinctly different.

[GotZapped]

Sorry @Buta I didn't get any notification of your reply.

I ended up getting the DE-5000 with the TL-21 and TL-22 for $120USD + GST. So about the same.

[coromonadalix]

The Infinium scope if well maintained is a good machine, sure the place taken is big and it's an oldie  .. but  just learn to use it,  or resell it ??  and get more slimmer modern models

But i would advice to read the reviews  before purchasing  any of it / them,    we bought a "Rigol DS1104Z Plus"  scope,  and i have to say it's hard to use for an oldie like me

All the channels setting are fitted / combined in one section ... i totally hate that,  but seems built like a tank,  tons of settings,  but the screen get cramped pretty fast ... we had a big price deal for it, brand new.

Theses new models  seems interesting : Hantek DSO2000  "DSO2D15"    with an integrated signal generator


An De-5000  is hard to beat,  for many part tests, its always best to remove them from the pcb,  many part around them can influence the values, i never do in circuit tests for caps and coils

[OriginalDan]

Hi OriginalDan,
Where did you get the AUD prices for the DE-5000 with TL21 and TL32 and the compete set (DE-5000U) from?
I've been searching ebay, etc, but the prices are higher....inflation? The complete kit with case seems to be scarce and expensive.

sorry for a really late reply seems i didn't have any email notifications on for this thread, the prices at that time was from ebay but primarily japan was the cheapest option, now not so much. i did end up using https://www.fromjapan.co.jp/ which is a proxy bidding service for yahoo auctions japan
i bought a couple for myself and a friend of mine, i got just a body of a DE-5000 for $62aud + $31 to ship here so $93 and a 2nd one for $77aud total
you can see what previous de-5000s have sold for on yahoo auctions here
in hindsight i should've been patient and waited to get one with the leads as buying them on their own tends to cost more vs buying em togeather
looks like they still go for around 8000ish yen on average so $91aud factor in shipping which should be around $30ish and if you're patient they go for $70ish

The Infinium scope if well maintained is a good machine, sure the place taken is big and it's an oldie  .. but  just learn to use it,  or resell it ??  and get more slimmer modern models
But i would advice to read the reviews  before purchasing  any of it / them,    we bought a "Rigol DS1104Z Plus"  scope,  and i have to say it's hard to use for an oldie like me
All the channels setting are fitted / combined in one section ... i totally hate that,  but seems built like a tank,  tons of settings,  but the screen get cramped pretty fast ... we had a big price deal for it, brand new.
Theses new models  seems interesting : Hantek DSO2000  "DSO2D15"    with an integrated signal generator
An De-5000  is hard to beat,  for many part tests, its always best to remove them from the pcb,  many part around them can influence the values, i never do in circuit tests for caps and coils

as for scopes since this post i found someone local who got rid of some vintage scopes

Teleinstrument TI-5052 - which appears to be fully functional
the other two: Sampo SSI-2325 and Dick Smith Q-1806 PS-605 i haven't tested yet and need to inspect/clean em up first

also got a cheapo DSO154pro i haven't checked the Infinium scope yet and ill need to learn a lot more about what ill need to calibrate them to begin with, funnily enough the few projects I've done i haven't needed a scope yet, only recently got my fume extraction setup sorted, still lots to learn!

some other interesting scopes I've seen since that might've fit my needs would be DSO1511G
since it's composite output is nice if you don't want to be limited by the small lcd, or for pure portability the Hantek 2C42 but for now i have plenty of scopes i gotta learn first lol

[rhb]

For *in circuit* capacitor testing the *only* thing I've found that actually works is the EDS-88A.  I have the BSIDE which is really quite good and solid as a brick.  I also have the Peak LCR & ESR testers.

The EDS really is as good as claimed for in circuit testing of caps.  I've succeeded with it wher all the others failed.

Reg

BTW You should get a BSIDE even if you buy a different ESR meter. 

[Wallace Gasiewicz]

I have an Agilent 54810
Since you already bought it's big brother. the 54845, learn to use it. Otherwise give it to me!!!  HA!!!
Seriously, if you get rid of it, you will probably be sorry later on.
I really do not think it is any harder to use than any other digital scope. The menus are just different and kinda like old computer menus.
It is kinda big, but not heavy. The FFT is very hard to use, I use a spectrum analyzer. I have no idea if other newer scopes FFT are any better.
Just get appropriate probes, maybe just the ones that go to 500MHz make sure the probe capacitance matches the scope input.
You may not need the GHz but I do not know... Most of my work is below 200 MHz
The issue with these scopes is the Hard Drive and there are easy fixes involving a SSD. I think there are also lots of people to help with this line.
The Groups.io                https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/messages
Can help with these things. I have the SSD installed.

EDIT:  Get some kind of little cart for the scope, Something like a kitchen card, maybe  with a drawer for probes/accessories

Get an easier repair to start with,  In my experience switching power supplies are very hard to work on. one little thing out of joint and the whole thing goes up.

[nightfire]

For LCR testers, the DE5000 is a popular choice amongs hobbyists- I bought mine with all the stuff back then via ebay from japan for I think  130 € incl. import tax. Tweezers usually are only needed with small components- and as this does not work well in-circuit, Tweezers can be omitted if they are not really needed.

Multimeter: As mentioned, the eevblog branded Brymens give good value and you would support the forum.
Depending whats available in your area, some used Fluke might be a good choice, but for hobby use I would really think about buying a new Fluke DMM.
(I use Fluke professionally in my line of work for 15 years now, and I am happy with them, have some old Fluke bench DMMs at home for tinkering, but the price of a new Fluke is a bit hefty for home and hobby usage)

The question here would be: Which precision and resolution is needed for the work you would like to do? For simple repair stuff a 6000-count DMM usually is enough, for fine-grade work in the range of above 6V, where you like to have 1mV resolution, obviously a DMM with higher resolution is needed.

Scope: I decided some time ago, where the stuff was quite cheap, to begin with a Rigol 1102Z-E (got that for 250 €)- and upgrade later when I would outgrew it.
Still have not used it as much as I would have liked to, but if you would like to work on more complicated things, or use a channel as trigger, go for 4 channels.
And if you would like on mains voltage, think about a differential probe.

[OriginalDan]

For *in circuit* capacitor testing the *only* thing I've found that actually works is the EDS-88A.  I have the BSIDE which is really quite good and solid as a brick.  I also have the Peak LCR & ESR testers.
The EDS really is as good as claimed for in circuit testing of caps.  I've succeeded with it wher all the others failed.Reg
BTW You should get a BSIDE even if you buy a different ESR meter.

interesting haven't seen that EDS before looks like a solid DIY project, found some comments mentioning EDS-89 LeakSeeker which also looks quite helpful, thanks.

forgot to mention i did buy a BSIDE early on before i found some cheaper DE-5000s but hadn't used it yet and since gifted to a mate who needed to test a crt recap job, apparently it's been good so probably for a total beginner the bside appears like a solid good cheap beginner choice

I'm sure it would've been enough for my use but i haven't learned to stay away from proxy bidding haha.

I have an Agilent 54810 Since you already bought it's big brother. the 54845, learn to use it. Otherwise give it to me!!!  HA!!!
Seriously, if you get rid of it, you will probably be sorry later on.

it's certainly on the list to test out soon but my pile of partially working crts and battery damaged 486/pentium1s are a priority currenty, no idea what state it's in other than cosmetically a bit banged up, again it was a very stupid late night auction bid i thought it was a more modern smaller scope and likely got confused looking at multiple bidding listings at 2am lol. i mainly picked up those vintage scopes after seeing Jerobeam Fenderson videos but i did see videos of Dave mentioning to pickup a vintage scope as a beginner because they're cheap but that was many years ago and now it seems most vintage scopes go for more than some decent featured chinese scopes!
if i can't get the 54845 working or it turns out i don't use it as often as i thought then for sure ill look at selling it on.

Most of my work is below 200 MHz
The issue with these scopes is the Hard Drive and there are easy fixes involving a SSD. I think there are also lots of people to help with this line.
The Groups.io                https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/messages Can help with these things. I have the SSD installed.
EDIT:  Get some kind of little cart for the scope, Something like a kitchen card, maybe  with a drawer for probes/accessories
Get an easier repair to start with,  In my experience switching power supplies are very hard to work on. one little thing out of joint and the whole thing goes up.

good points, thanks for the link, figured there would be either compact flash or ssd conversion possibilities i wouldn't rely on unknown old mechanical drives for such a fancy bit of gear.
space real estate is certainly a premium i have no idea why i thought id fit my whole electronics setup onto a single 1100x600mm desk

Multimeter: As mentioned, the eevblog branded Brymens give good value and you would support the forum.
Depending whats available in your area, some used Fluke might be a good choice, but for hobby use I would really think about buying a new Fluke DMM.
(I use Fluke professionally in my line of work for 15 years now, and I am happy with them, have some old Fluke bench DMMs at home for tinkering, but the price of a new Fluke is a bit hefty for home and hobby usage)
The question here would be: Which precision and resolution is needed for the work you would like to do? For simple repair stuff a 6000-count DMM usually is enough, for fine-grade work in the range of above 6V, where you like to have 1mV resolution, obviously a DMM with higher resolution is needed.

Scope: I decided some time ago, where the stuff was quite cheap, to begin with a Rigol 1102Z-E (got that for 250 €)- and upgrade later when I would outgrew it.
Still have not used it as much as I would have liked to, but if you would like to work on more complicated things, or use a channel as trigger, go for 4 channels.
And if you would like on mains voltage, think about a differential probe.

for sure the brymen is on the to buy list it's just my craptastic DT830s have been fine so far mainly for sanity voltage measurement checks of say a c64 or amiga psu before plugging into a system.

for any beginners like me that might end up reading any of this Definately do Not overspend like i did, in retrospect i should've started with the barebones budget 'good enough' gear and worked my way up with simple repair projects instead of diving headfirst into more professional gear.

[nightfire]

for sure the brymen is on the to buy list it's just my craptastic DT830s have been fine so far mainly for sanity voltage measurement checks of say a c64 or amiga psu before plugging into a system.

for any beginners like me that might end up reading any of this Definately do Not overspend like i did, in retrospect i should've started with the barebones budget 'good enough' gear and worked my way up with simple repair projects instead of diving headfirst into more professional gear.

Yes, also some craptastic stuff can be useful if you know its limits and do not overexcercise it.
I also have some el cheapo 20€ Multimeter stored at my mums apartment, so that I when I come to visit have some basic tools around when I fix something- and do not need to haul my gear all the way.

For a beginner, that aims to build a decent pile of tools, some midrange multimeters are usually "good enough" to get the stuff done and will last some time before the people outgrow them.
The Brymen 235 might be such a sweet spot, and depending on the use cases it might last for years until a better DMM is really needed.
(Anecdote: As I was beginning, I got a sweet deal on ebay for my U1272A, otherwise I would have probably chosen some 60 € chinesium DMM or used Fluke in the midrange series)