Electronics > Beginners
Exponents
rstofer:
--- Quote from: ebastler on April 10, 2019, 03:15:25 pm ---You have a point there, but nevertheless it's pretty disappointing. By the same token, you could argue that one should expect some spelling errors in programming languages' keywords -- programmers aren't that good at spelling, and cannot break backwards compatibility once a language has been rolled out. But I have yet to see a language with a "prnit" or "inputt" command. ;)
--- End quote ---
There was a FORTRAN compiler, way back when, that would accept DAMNITALL for the DIMENSION keyword. 9 characters and the D & M matched. It may have been the IBM 1130, I don't recall. Nor did I ever try to disprove it. I had enough problems doing my own keypunch.
I just wanted the compiler to fix my missing parentheses at the end of FORMAT statements.
Rick Law:
--- Quote from: ebastler on April 10, 2019, 03:15:25 pm ---
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 10, 2019, 02:52:57 pm ---In general, because many programmers aren't that good at math and changing the precedence/associativity rules when your users have gotten used to them would be downright evil, one must assume that software environments do not always parse or compute expressions correctly.
--- End quote ---
You have a point there, but nevertheless it's pretty disappointing. By the same token, you could argue that one should expect some spelling errors in programming languages' keywords -- programmers aren't that good at spelling, and cannot break backwards compatibility once a language has been rolled out. But I have yet to see a language with a "prnit" or "inputt" command. ;)
--- End quote ---
re: "In general, because many programmers aren't that good at math..."
What is ironic is that in the early days of computer science, many universities didn't yet have CS as a major and they rolled it into the math department. So most programmers back then had math degree instead of CS degree.
Purdue Univ was the first in the USA to offer CS degree in 1962. So you can bet in the 1960's, 90% of the programmers are "math" majors.
Herman Cain, a computer guy (pizza company CEO, one time presidential candidate, currently being nominated for the Federal Reserve) spoke of his PhD in "math" that he is a "mathematician" only because the U he attended didn't have CS yet.
This gives interesting meaning to the title BS in Math.
0culus:
Bullshit, More Shit, and Shit Piled Higher and Deeper!
Nominal Animal:
--- Quote from: Brumby on April 09, 2019, 02:37:31 am ---If there IS an issue with the expression, then that lies with the person who prepared it. THAT is, actually, a much more important step than resolving it. If it is not written correctly, then you will not - and can not - get a correct answer.
--- End quote ---
With programming languages, libraries, applications and environments, the problem is that the rules are implemented, not just stated. This means that when you input an expression, the environment may not parse it according to the stated or assumed rules. My point is that because their implementors are human, the possibility of such errors always exists.
The simple solution, which we seem to agree on, is to use parentheses to ensure an unambiguous parsing and evaluation of the expression.
And, one could add, to verify the correctness of the environment via known expressions: 1+2×3 and so on.
To rephrase: while the mathematical identities and formulae are exact and unambiguous, we humans can express them in different ways. We have different notations and so on. Essentially, when a human writes a mathematical expression, the thing it describes is exact, but the expression uses formatting rules set by us fallible humans. The problem is not with the underlying math or its exactness, it is only that those formatting rules do vary.
--- Quote from: Rick Law on April 11, 2019, 02:17:30 am ---What is ironic is that in the early days of computer science, many universities didn't yet have CS as a major and they rolled it into the math department. So most programmers back then had math degree instead of CS degree.
--- End quote ---
How many of the mathematicians you know can state the order of precedence of the basic arithmetic operators offhand? Among those I know, not many; most would struggle a lot. Or laugh, then Google it.
--- Quote from: 0culus on April 11, 2019, 03:27:22 am ---Bullshit, More Shit, and Shit Piled Higher and Deeper!
--- End quote ---
:-//
Maybe lay off the drugs for a while, eh?
tggzzz:
--- Quote from: Nominal Animal on April 11, 2019, 10:50:36 am ---
--- Quote from: Brumby on April 09, 2019, 02:37:31 am ---If there IS an issue with the expression, then that lies with the person who prepared it. THAT is, actually, a much more important step than resolving it. If it is not written correctly, then you will not - and can not - get a correct answer.
--- End quote ---
With programming languages, libraries, applications and environments, the problem is that the rules are implemented, not just stated. This means that when you input an expression, the environment may not parse it according to the stated or assumed rules. My point is that because their implementors are human, the possibility of such errors always exists.
The simple solution, which we seem to agree on, is to use parentheses to ensure an unambiguous parsing and evaluation of the expression.
And, one could add, to verify the correctness of the environment via known expressions: 1+2×3 and so on.
To rephrase: while the mathematical identities and formulae are exact and unambiguous, we humans can express them in different ways. We have different notations and so on. Essentially, when a human writes a mathematical expression, the thing it describes is exact, but the expression uses formatting rules set by us fallible humans. The problem is not with the underlying math or its exactness, it is only that those formatting rules do vary.
--- Quote from: Rick Law on April 11, 2019, 02:17:30 am ---What is ironic is that in the early days of computer science, many universities didn't yet have CS as a major and they rolled it into the math department. So most programmers back then had math degree instead of CS degree.
--- End quote ---
How many of the mathematicians you know can state the order of precedence of the basic arithmetic operators offhand? Among those I know, not many; most would struggle a lot. Or laugh, then Google it.
--- End quote ---
All of them, full stop.
The point is that there has to be some commonly understood and shared meaning, otherwise communication cannot happen. If a person chooses new meanings that are different to the standard meanings, then it is up to that person to state what they mean.
If they don't do that then there's nothing to prevent "I'm going to get a cup of coffee" meaning "You're going to drive the car" :)
Hence, in the original question, it is reasonable to ask where the parentheses are, and reasonable to answer "no parentheses, normal laws of arithmetic", or "no parentheses, in Excel spreadsheets". It is to be deprecated that the answers are different.
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