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Buriedcode:

--- Quote from: metrologist on April 11, 2019, 04:05:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: Buriedcode on April 11, 2019, 02:59:11 pm ---Why would they [primary teachers] need to know?  Whilst I vaguely remember learning some algebra in primary school, I'm not sure it was required.  Why pick on primary school teachers?  They have an ever growing work load and constant changes to curriculum from a government who wants "all UK children to be above average"  :-DD (Direct quote from Michael Gove there).

--- End quote ---

The particular school and several others around here run K through 8, and I consider them primary; although, I believe the classic definition of primary education is k through 5. I would expect primary mathematics program teachers to have earned certain credentials to be in that position, which would certainly exceed the educational requirements of the level they are instructing.

The 6th grade class here appears to be in chapter 11 or 12, and should finish the program by mid June I believe. This is not the actual program but the topics are the same: http://mathonweb.com/help_ebook/index.htm

I did provide some context and description of the specific issue I had.

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I can't say I've seen the evidence for primary school teachers not knowing about precedence in mathematics, I only know two, and both seem pretty well educated to me, but it seems to be quite a specific thing to claim.  And I still don't know what this really has to do with the thread.  Again - why pick on primary school teachers? (I'm assuming this is specific to the UK, since the term "primary school" is generally a UK thing).

It seems I've hit a few nerves in this thread.  I apologise, it wasn't my intention to insult or anger anyone. I amazed (and impressed) by how passionate some get over such matters.  I now see that excel, as well as other software do things differently to convention, but these can be mitigated through use of parentheses.  What else is there to the thread?
ebastler:

--- Quote from: Buriedcode on April 11, 2019, 05:53:30 pm ---I now see that excel, as well as other software do things differently to convention, but these can be mitigated through use of parentheses.  What else is there to the thread?

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Nothing, really. Except that, whenever the thread seems to have reached that consensus, someone new pops in and states the opposite. ;)

Lets give it another day. My guess is that someone will come along, wondering what all this debate is about, given the obvious fact that -34 = 81.  :P
tggzzz:

--- Quote from: Buriedcode on April 11, 2019, 05:53:30 pm ---I can't say I've seen the evidence for primary school teachers not knowing about precedence in mathematics

--- End quote ---

In my limited experience, slightly under half instantly give the wrong answer, and are difficult to persuade there might even be a question. A clued up minority ask where the parentheses are, and are then realise they've forgotten the normal laws of arithmetic. Very few confidently give the right answer.


--- Quote ---I now see that excel, as well as other software do things differently to convention, but these can be mitigated through use of parentheses.

--- End quote ---

Yup, that's the point.
0culus:

--- Quote from: rstofer on April 11, 2019, 04:06:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: magic on April 11, 2019, 03:42:58 pm ---
--- Quote from: Buriedcode on April 11, 2019, 02:59:11 pm ---I have noticed a lot of threads that deal with education or the basics of engineering/mathematics have this air of "in my day things were better" from the older generation.  Of course people are going to think that, because otherwise it implies that their education - and by extension, themselves - is/was substandard or outdated.

--- End quote ---
I have noticed a lot of people trying to explain away simple and widely acknowledged facts by insinuating that they exist only in imaginations of fragile egos.

--- End quote ---

Things were NOT better.  My grandson and I were working through one of his physics problems the other night and it involved a rather ugly polynomial.  We took one look and decided to just set it up in MATLAB.  Turns out one of his other classes is MATLAB - a forward thinking university that requires a MATLAB course.  We kind of laughed when he asked how I would have solved it back in the early '70s.  I moved my hands around in a familiar 'slide rule' fashion and mimicked writing intermediate results.

I could imagine being able to learn the various material with much more depth and understanding if I wasn't bogged down doing arithmetic.  Just compare solving a 5x5 matrix by hand versus dropping it into MATLAB.  Statics was a fun class but it will be more fun with MATLAB.  He can spend more time understanding WHY elements are in tension or compression and not wondering if he dropped a sign.

Things were NOT better!  The tools, the online tutorials, even the textbooks are far superior to what the 'old folks' had.  I wish I were back in college!  I would eat that stuff up.

--- End quote ---

I agree. I think there is a certain value to learning to manipulate 2x2 and 3x3 systems by hand...beyond that it's pure drudgery and you'll spend more time correcting mistakes than you do understanding the problem.
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