Author Topic: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)  (Read 651 times)

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Offline wiresahoTopic starter

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https://www.falstad.com/circuit/circuitjs.html?ctz=CQAgjCAMB0l3BWcMBMcUHYMGZIA4UA2ATmIxEMhCQSoQFMBaMMAKADdwNCRtsew3XmiiiALFUmiYCVgCcuPbCMFLIY0WHgcQKFBtwa9BkVInV40qNFkLjwqvb48qW+HFYAVRb3W79ugg8eCAaEDDwCGKEhGJieMTYxAgYxDEhjBHqYNhiGHFkGGC0CAgo1qTEXroY5YYOgcGh4NaReZTFesR4UShlIJmw2dgpcLHJYsREFaTV-CH1YmA8fU1hrYjxYihgk1qEGJBgfQNZS-wIYGRkMX1BM1Xe0QZ+l+WrICHrWZBRxFp5brqJIobDkQZwc61SD6HZ8fQ5B6sADu1GOvH4oViGJcKNCyxxvEIC0xkDxyiozhqdVJeKcmNUhLJCkZy1cU3AlE02k4V3KbN0+E5Uio5nMIps8h8LH5HJl3LpeBC8pQSuFUEVyq5aC1kjxrK5rPRZNRjI+rI5JulcqEAqt9g+DqF9oCOv8YSELo9KyFdv1to5mFl5XttXAgbDH1DwaJyst5OJ4bqiajCbj5WeSY1qMzfKxRnuVrejXxK0LeKWZaUIlTqIpJYd5bBjjV8rzbekeMOBZ4lBCtc+cBL3ZLVoSVcHjnLqLw8Szs-705AGH6eYXWatK5jW9HeMI9zzO7zVv3Ag5p93qKC7PKF+PeOvJcf99RfcJj6pm78VIvn7xeCHKkdz-Gc0kJdc-28CC-HHEsvhaH5SnUIoliIPsEDwbBTiGc4egOGJEhGX4kW8YCYKHD54PCIZfloPg8kuYopiuDQIWGWdsBYOJJjyMESIoe56hHSjmmoyJaEgQhdlVMACEwjAMjOHI8GKADiC2Y4Q2gSpqg-Pw3xE74aL+fddjEMEF33LC2KhfIejQbZUlSJFXyFD4ykXXEr0NDl4hvbNPjA+p1JeDQrRC3wNAikCQGizFYJijyn3RAc-KzXN41RJw-CDSKAvpCcYo+Klcpi+sqXmJlyREepKvqK1KzyzN6orAkqWa2kr3Reo9LCh9usxD9OooIV6l-PwT1GzFf2GkchP6FrUTmzFgOGgDKRgudFsncCttpOww3rUrSWQdwyU4Uqa0OibxDoSwJVsBpypqk63HcHRyu-GrTFuiwhweqU6pqxNP1O97OCBykQZu0U7v+6RJQURr62R16zvO0smran7Yb+kVrEe5qRA6lwwZ5fMGmamHQjh-GZClYt60ZtGzp0RnXm6nGabxqx6YUD8RCG0m3vJgW6C5erfokunEZGhYRDfUGRY8ThFf00aufMaXedl38FcElnwYE6sqHGsKpfuhHHrmkRluF9GdDmvwbfxrXLckWXgNthbDfJr2qDI83ce1gGFHWhpw6Vh3OEj8jKU12mdceiCRAg32Vc+LbU626m3fhj3k6C1OgvTjGEpgovXcTgHsBCKgADFwlEJBmBAAA1AB7AAbAAXABDABzehWCAA



So it takes about 10 isolation transformers,  and 5 kilovolts high voltage to power it,  and only handles a small load of 10 ohms.

Input is 5 volts,  output is only about 2.5 volts,  and im getting about 4x output amps than input amps,  so it loses a bit of volts in the process, and the input has to be an ac signal to make it through the transformers.

Its a strange device,  but amping without a transistor seems to be a tricky process,  so I'm quite proud of it,  I'm thinking of getting a load of audio isolation transformers and trying it out,   but I hope they can handle the 5 kilovolts, but its only low amperage, so I wonder if anyone could know if u can use audio transformers with high voltage or not?    (for example with led's its ok.)

 

Offline aliarifat794

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #1 on: May 21, 2024, 05:54:31 pm »
Audio isolation transformers are typically not designed for high-voltage applications. They are usually rated for much lower voltages, often below 100 volts.
Applying 5 kilovolts can exceed the insulation capacity of the transformers, leading to breakdown and failure.
 

Offline jonpaul

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #2 on: May 21, 2024, 06:00:46 pm »
Very old idea, used in many HV devices.

See patents on multistage HV converters.

Commercially avail from KiloVac, HyPotronics, Del.

will NOT work with audio trsf. Sorry

j
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 

Offline wiresahoTopic starter

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2024, 06:48:01 pm »
I've got another problem too,  the resistor on the far left where the input power is coming in seems have to be there or it doesn't work,   so I cant use a shorting power source for it. (low ohmage.)    and that restricts its use further to only low amplitude use, so doesn't work for audio amplification.

But I do have another design coming together that seems to get over these problems and its working in simulation.     Just got some stuff to buy at the electronics shop then I can test it out on my computer desk!
 

Online ArdWar

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2024, 01:59:59 am »
Surely this is not another "I found quirky behaviors in sims, wonder if it works in real life too" posts right?
 
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Offline wiresahoTopic starter

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2024, 05:40:39 am »
I have been stuck in the sim for a long time.
I need to do some real tests, but I haven't been able to get to the electronics store in a while, all my money is going on smokes and I can never afford anything.
 

Offline Andy Chee

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2024, 06:33:53 am »
what is your goal?  Musical tesla coil?
 

Offline wiresahoTopic starter

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2024, 08:01:10 am »
I hope to get a latch working with it,  without a transistor.
 

Offline Manul

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2024, 10:38:41 am »
Copernicus? Anyway, amplifiers exploiting non linearity of the core were used early to middle of last century. I think falstad will not be able to simulate those, because core is not configurable.
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2024, 10:48:21 am »
Fallstaff: See Shakespeare, King Henry IV

Jon
Jean-Paul  the Internet Dinosaur
 

Offline jwet

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Re: falstad simulation of new idea (isolation transformer amplifier)
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2024, 04:05:38 pm »
The result is not correct- its an artifact of the simulation and your analysis method.

Our standard methods of circuit analysis are a simplification that use "lumped matter".  In order to simplify the physics of Maxwell's equations- the true basis of electronics, some boundary conditions are set to simplify analysis.  Kirchoff's laws embody these tools but they only work within certain constraints which are usually, but not always, present.  KVL for example, states that the voltage drops around any circuit loop is zero.  This is actually a simplification of Faraday's law, one of Maxwell equations. Faraday's law states that the line integral around a closed path of the electric field is dB/dt. This is induction.  In the lumped matter case (assumed by Kirchoff), we force dB/dt to be zero which is generally a safe assumption (except in cases like transformers), we get that the voltage around any loop is zero but this is a simplification.  If you have a dB/dt, you can't use simple KVL type analysis.  Basic simulators, including SPICE, use a lumped model.  For many situations, the lumped model can't be applied.  You have to go back to more fundamental models that take into account the changing field.  All EE's learn Maxwell equations but work mostly with lumped models.  This is fine unless you're an antenna engineer or a mad inventor stacking transformers ;-)

See the reference below for a more complete treatment of the constraints of the lumped circuit simplification that we use everyday. 

Interesting diversion.

(ref Appendix A- Foundations of Analog and Digital Electronics Circuits- Agarwal and Lang).

« Last Edit: May 22, 2024, 04:07:56 pm by jwet »
 
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