Author Topic: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?  (Read 14187 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline icon

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 246
Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« on: May 07, 2012, 08:46:46 pm »
Hi

I'm blowing a lot of fuses on a power supply I've built which should only draw max 630mA on the 240V side, but as a conseqence of the the 10,000uF or so of capacitance draws a momentary 3-4A which is vaporising the 1A fuses I have. Doing a search with the usual suppliers reveals Slow Blow, Anti-Surge and Time Delay options. Are they all names for the same thing? Or which do I want?

Thanks
John
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:18:19 pm by icon »
 

Offline Bloch

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 440
  • Country: dk
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2012, 09:02:01 pm »

http://www.schurterinc.com/var/schurter/storage/ilcatalogue/files/document/datasheet/en/pdf/typ_SPT_5x20.pdf


x = 630mA

1.5 x In min.       60 min
2.1 x In max.      30 min
2.75 x In min.   250 ms2.75 x In max.    ]80 s
4.0 x In min.       50 ms
4.0 x In max.        5 s
10.0 x In min.      5 ms
10.0 x In max    150 ms

Normally they are stamped with T

 

Offline Jeff1946

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 84
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2012, 03:52:59 am »
Jumper the fuse and see what smokes.  :)
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9584
  • Country: us
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2012, 04:05:14 am »
Maybe just try a 5 A fuse?
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline Kremmen

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1283
  • Country: fi
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2012, 05:57:28 am »
3 solutions:

1: increase the mains fuse or make it slower
 + fuses don't blow so easily when not desirable
  - fuses don't blow so easily even when desirable

2: increase the main fuse and install a second one to the output
  + main fuse withstands the starting as above, yet provides protection to the innards of the supply
  + output fuse can be dimensioned to blow quickly when max current is exceeded
  - more expensive, more stuff to install

3: incorporate an inrush limiter or PFC to the circuit
  + can keep original fuse
  + lower inrush current = lower stress to components and mains, no line surges
  - more complex and costly solution
Nothing sings like a kilovolt.
Dr W. Bishop
 

Offline icon

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 246
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2012, 07:24:57 am »
Hi

I have a 3A fuse in the mains plug (which doesn't blow) and a fuse on the secondary side. The fuse that's blowing is at the mains input of the device. I'm planning on Kremmen's option 1b - make it (the input fuse) slower. My question was which of [Slow Blow|Anti-Surge|Time Delay] do I need, or do they all do the same thing?

I did jumper the fuse - with my multimeter. Which is how I established that it was drawing 3-4A when first switched on. No smoke - without a load on the output, input supply current rapidly settles down to 10ma or so.

Cheers
John
 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6526
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2012, 08:24:04 am »
I don't think you're actually drawing 630A of inrush current, that's 150+ kW :o

You should add a NTC. They can be found in scrap computer PSUs for free.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 09:16:02 am by amyk »
 

Offline Bloch

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 440
  • Country: dk
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2012, 08:26:59 am »

The sole purpose for a main/ primary transformer fuse is to protect the transformer.


So we need to know that size transformer you have.


I don't like to just use a BIG fuse and then be happy. It is better to make some kind of slow chargeing the big capasitor.
 

Offline Bloch

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 440
  • Country: dk
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2012, 08:43:18 am »
My question was which of [Slow Blow|Anti-Surge|Time Delay] do I need, or do they all do the same thing?


To get an answer you need to look at the datasheet :-)


My ques is that you have a 5*20mm fuse .....
If you look here http://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/fuses-sockets-circuit-breakers/fuses/cartridge-fuses/ There are a menu - Fuse Speed


You will want a T or a TT fuse.
 

Offline icon

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 246
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2012, 03:43:32 pm »
Quote from: amyk
I don't think you're actually drawing 630A of inrush current, that's 150+ kW :o

Where did that come from? [Oh, from me, first post; apologies.] I said 3-4A (ie between 3A and 4A, as near as I can measure).

Quote from: Bloch
I don't like to just use a BIG fuse and then be happy.

Quite. I have a 3A fuse in the plug, which would only serve to prevent the wiring in the walls from catching fire. Hence me looking for a different option to protect the primary.

In fact the one I'm trying is a (6.3x32mm) 800ma fuse with a nominal I2t value of 8. If I understand correctly this should tolerate 4A for 0.5s, which I think would cover the initial inrush.

Regards
John
« Last Edit: May 08, 2012, 05:21:26 pm by icon »
 

Offline cybergibbons

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 401
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2012, 04:25:10 pm »
You said 630A in the original post - presume you meant mA?
 

Offline Time

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 725
  • Country: us
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2012, 04:30:24 pm »
Why can't you use a time delay fuse?  I think those are specifically meant for inrush conditions but I could be wrong.
-Time
 

Offline T4P

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3706
  • Country: sg
    • T4P
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2012, 04:54:53 pm »


Now i understand the differences, Slow Blow has a just a blob on, Time delay has a spring mechanism that is slower.
Anti surge is also slow blow
 

Offline icon

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 246
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 05:19:59 pm »
You said 630A in the original post - presume you meant mA?

Ah rubbish, so I did.  :-\

Edited.

John

 

Offline Time

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 725
  • Country: us
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 06:35:50 pm »
time delay wont break unless the over current lasts over a certain time length.  this is to accommodate the inrush current.
-Time
 

Offline westom

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 10
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2012, 03:16:35 am »
If I understand correctly this should tolerate 4A for 0.5s, which I think would cover the initial inrush.
  Even in the 1950s, this problem was solved by an inrush current limiter.  Search the electronic catalogs for them.  An inrush current limiter will also increase reliability.

  Others now do same with active circuits that also perform power factor correction.

 

Offline amyk

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6526
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2012, 09:18:49 am »
 

Online ejeffrey

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1971
  • Country: us
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2012, 03:22:44 pm »
I say use a slow-blow fuse *and* an NTC inrush limiter.  Too much inrush will cause unnecessary stress on your transformer and input caps, so the NTC is good for your equipment reliability even aside from nuisance fuse and circuit breaker trips.   Even so, there will be some inrush.  A slow blow fuse won't hurt anything, and if it lets you get away with a lower fuse rating, it is better.
 

Offline jahonen

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1046
  • Country: fi
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2012, 06:29:46 pm »
Apropos, I just installed a softstart addition to two isolation transformers (545 VA toroid). I finally got bored to change the fuses (sometimes several times) on each restart :) My approach was to use just 5x10 ohms resistors in series of the primary, and relay which shorts out those resistors after 500 ms or so. Although NTC is simple, I don't personally like idea of a hot component and it doesn't work on brief disconnect. It took a little iteration to get the switching action quick on disconnect, so that softstart works properly even if power is only briefly disconnected. Seems to work very well. Theoretical maximum inrush current is therefore 230 V/50 ohms = 4.6A, which seems to be low enough for the fuse to handle. Relay and time delay circuit (just some discrete components) is powered through a "cap dropper" supply, using a 330 nF X2-grade capacitor.

Now I can use 2.5A slow-blow fuses (nominal for the transformer), before even 3.15A slow-blow fuses usually blew on power-up.



Note that fuse shown on the softstart PCB is not the main fuse, that one is just protecting the softstart resistors in case the output is shorted.

Regards,
Janne
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 06:32:19 pm by jahonen »
 

Offline Kremmen

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1283
  • Country: fi
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2012, 07:05:30 pm »
Heh, it's not that long ago i did a similar inrush limiter for the 4 kVA power transformer on on the z-axis drive of my cnc mill. My approach was to use an RC delay to trigger a small thyristor that switches on a bypass relay that short circuits the limiter resistor. Also this solution is immediately ready for restart after power out, no need to wait for hot components to cool down. Additionally the circuit has its own power supply and main contact relay that opens in case of power failure to the unit, so there is no risk of burning the limiter resistors in case of any problems.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2012, 07:58:28 pm by Kremmen »
Nothing sings like a kilovolt.
Dr W. Bishop
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15117
  • Country: za
Re: Fuses - Slow Blow, Anti-Surge, Time Delay?
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2012, 06:10:31 am »
I did the same with my Variac, as the switch on surge was enough to trip the supply breaker. I used 3 parallel 33R 10W resistors, shorted by a relay contact from a 24V relay driven via a capacitive divider and a bridge rectifier. My safety was a 110C thermal fuse on one of the resistors. Been working now for over 20 years, and is protected by a 10A fast blow fuse.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf