Good Multimeter or Oscilloscope - What's more useful for a begginer?

[Cristian Nicolae]

Hello,

I've been messing around with one of those cheap ass 5$ DT-800 multimeters for a couple of years now and want to start taking my hobby projects a little more seriously. Right now I'm playing with some simple logic circuits and I'd like to know if a what would be a better investment: a good quality multimeter or an oscilloscope?

I found an used Fluke 79 III meter for 150 Euros on a local auction site, and from what I can see it's a discontinued model but seems to do most of the things Dave mentioned in his videos (can measure mV, uA and has a 99nF range with 10pF precision).

I've also found a 30 MHz Hameg Analog Scope for the same price and a 40 Mhz Phillips Combiscope for 200 E (i don't know if they're any good or not).

I would totally get a good meter and an oscilloscope, but the problem is that I can't quite afford both at the same time (I'd probably have to wait another year or so until I could get that kind of spare cash). I will eventually get one of each, but until then my question is: Which one should I get first a scope or a good meter?

[larry42]

You don't need a fluke multimeter. Buy one of the recommended 50USD ones and put the rest towards a scope.


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[particleman]

I would most definitely get a multimeter first.

[Lightages]

Without any hesitation or doubt, you need a good multimeter first. Depending on your budget there are a few good ones to choose from.  Do some reading here first on what has been recommended for different budgets and different intended uses.

[deth502]

multimeter is always more useful.

as recommended above, a decent meter under $100usd will serve you well.

[Dave]

Cristian, we would be able to give you better advice, if we knew where you are from. You can select your country here. It will show up under your nickname when you post.

[TimNJ]

Don't really need to say it again since others have said it, but multimeter all the way. Multimeters give you quick numeric measurements. (Oscilloscopes do too but they take more fussing with, and you don't get neat features like resistance, diode check, and capacitance)

Don't get a $10 piece of crap, but there's really no need to spend anything more than I'd say $50-60 for a beginner. Hell I think most engineers could get away with a sub $100 meter, imho. Dave did a shootout a while ago. Some of the meters are a little old and there may be meters better at the pricepoint now, but it's a good frame a reference if you want to see what a good $50 meter should look like. Try to get one from Extech, Amprobe, BK, Brymen or Uni-T. Those won't cost you an arm and a leg and they will do the job just fine.

[TimNJ]

And FYI Philips scopes are generally very good bits of kit. Not familiar with too many of their products but their test equipment division was taken up by Fluke back in the 90s so that should give you an idea of their quality.

[kolonelkadat]

I would get 2 multimeters (hell maybe 3 or 4) before getting an oscilloscope.
I would also get a decent linear power supply before getting an oscilloscope.

[zapta]

For simple logic circuits the DT800 is just fine. I would get an oscilloscope. You will be able to see actual signals.

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[AG6QR]

I'll join the chorus and say that a meter is more useful.  I use a meter every single time I do anything with electronics.  An oscilloscope is used less often, and most times when I use my scope, I've also got a meter looking at something, too.

Meters are cheaper than scopes, too.  You can get a top quality meter for about the price of the cheapest hobby scope that doesn't suck.  You may not need that top quality, but at least a medium quality meter or two is a good investment that you will get a lot of use out of.

Eventually, you need both, of course.  And an adjustable bench power supply, and a signal generator.  And a soldering iron, and a big collection of various parts.  So start saving.

But your most used tool is likely to be a multimeter.  Don't skimp too much on your most used tool.

[Rick Law]

Hello,

I've been messing around with one of those cheap ass 5$ DT-800 multimeters for a couple of years now and want to start taking my hobby projects a little more seriously. Right now I'm playing with some simple logic circuits and I'd like to know if a what would be a better investment: a good quality multimeter or an oscilloscope?

I found an used Fluke 79 III meter for 150 Euros on a local auction site, and from what I can see it's a discontinued model but seems to do most of the things Dave mentioned in his videos (can measure mV, uA and has a 99nF range with 10pF precision).

I've also found a 30 MHz Hameg Analog Scope for the same price and a 40 Mhz Phillips Combiscope for 200 E (i don't know if they're any good or not).

I would totally get a good meter and an oscilloscope, but the problem is that I can't quite afford both at the same time (I'd probably have to wait another year or so until I could get that kind of spare cash). I will eventually get one of each, but until then my question is: Which one should I get first a scope or a good meter?

Cristian,

Since you already has a multimeter, this puts you in a position to be able to answer these questions:
What with your multimeter do you dislike? and how it is under-serving you?  (ie: what job do you need done that this one isn't doing?)

If the answer is: "I just want something different", that is a good answer too.  You can then identify what differences are you seeking: more accuracy? more features (like logging...)

Just chewing on those questions will help you make a better choice and perhaps learn something before you even have to buy something.

Rick

[Cristian Nicolae]

Wow, thanks a lot for all the responses guys. I really wasn't expecting to get this much feedback in a short amount of time.

As I said, right now I have one of those crap DT 838 meters (here it is in all its glory: http://www.o-digital.com/uploads/2179/2201-1/Digital_Multimeter_DT_838_671.jpg ), and it's been doing a good enough job for my logic circuit needs. I don't really need auto-ranging from a meter since I can just set it to its 20V range and leave it there for logic stuff, and the continuity tester on my current one is pretty fast (those are kinda the only features I need in a meter for the moment). So right now I am somewhat covered by this cheap meter, but I might want to try out some audio circuits as well in the future and I don't know if this thing will do for these types of circuits.

@larry42 Yeah, I think I'll try to get one of those BK precision multimeters that were in the 100$ shootout and then keep a lookout for a second hand Combiscope.

@Dave Well that's weird, I thought I selected my country when I registered. I'm from Romania (unfortunately), and it seems the local market for electronic test equipment is pretty much nonexistent. I've been checking the local add sites for quite some time and all I see are the same offers, either vintage made in Romania or made in USSR gear or overpriced crap quality Chinese stuff. The only somewhat good meters I've been able to find are made by Voltcraft or Uni-T, and there are 2-3 used Fluke ads and that's about it. My local electronic stores don't really keep anything better than Uni-T in stock and the oscilloscopes they can order are stupidly expensive (about 500 Euros for a Siglent 1022 scope, and that's the cheapest scope they can get). Ordering stuff from ebay or amazon might be a good solution, and I think I'll do just that if I decide to get a new meter.

@TimNJ Too late, I already have this piece of crap for some time now and it's been doing a decent job for my low-voltage circuits. I'll try to retire it to a back up meter asap though.

@kolonelkadat I can understand having 2 meters, but why 3-4? As I said, this is more of a hobby for me and it's kinda late to pick engineering as a career, so I guess a crap meter and a somewhat decent one should do the job well.

@zapta Thanks for the advice, I guess a second hand DSO would be nice for debugging. Right now there haven't been any situations where I'd need to measure anything other than 5V/3.3V that I get from my voltage regulators and basic continuity tests, however there have been times when I would want to see what signals get into what parts and stuff like that, so I guess I'll try to get a scope first and upgrade my meters a bit later.

@AG6QR I absolutely agree that a meter is mandatory for electronics, however I already have a cheap ass one that I've bought a long time ago and seems to do a fairly good job. A scope however might help me debug my circuits and maybe learn more about electronics in general since I can see what's happening inside the circuit. So I think I'm gonna go with a scope for now. As for adjustable power supplies and signal generators, well I have a long list of gear to get but I'll stick to my Sega Mega Drive power supply and various oscillator chips I can find for now.

@Rick Law Right now this meter's doing a pretty decent job, however in the future I would like to explore other areas of electronics that might need a more precise measurement (audio circuits would be a prime candidate). Also I'd like to have another meter so I can check them against each other to see if they're out of calibration.

TL;DR: Thanks a lot for the feedback guys. Romania sucks at electronic gear (among other things) so I think I'm gonna get that Phillips Combiscope (it's a 40Mhz 20MSamples one) until someone else snatches it, mainly so I can see my signals and then try to get one of those BK precision meters Dave mentioned in his 100$ shootout. If someone has experience with these CRT DSO type of scopes, please share it in this post.

[rob77]

definitely go for a scope. even a cheap ass multimeter is good enough if you're not working with mains. i did so as well - rather invested into a scope and lab supply than expensive DMM. for my projects i don't need ultra precision and well protected multimeters.
my most expensive multimeter was something like 50-60Eur (actually it's a nice autorange with min/max/hold) the cheaper ones are those crappy no-name ones - but they do the right job for my projects.

[Dave]

I'm from Romania (unfortunately), and it seems the local market for electronic test equipment is pretty much nonexistent. I've been checking the local add sites for quite some time and all I see are the same offers, either vintage made in Romania or made in USSR gear or overpriced crap quality Chinese stuff. ... Ordering stuff from ebay or amazon might be a good solution, and I think I'll do just that if I decide to get a new meter.

It's a similar situation here in Slovenia, walk-in stores offer mostly crap instruments. If you want a good meter, you have to request a quote from one of the distributors. Not many quality items on local auction sites, either.
If you don't mind buying second-hand (which I recommend - most of my test gear was bought used on eBay), I suggest searching on eBay.co.uk and eBay.de. You also don't have to pay customs fees if you buy within the European Union.

I can understand having 2 meters, but why 3-4?

You need 4 meters if you want to measure something like power efficiency of a power supply (input voltage and current, output voltage and current). That number increases further if you simultaneously want to measure the temperature of heatsinks, etc.

If you are going anywhere near high energy circuits (mains voltage, big charged caps, etc.), please don't use the DT830. It has practically zero input protection and it won't hesitate to blow up in your hands, if you happen to make a slight mistake. Get a good meter with HRC fuses, large MOVs, PTC resistor and other goodies (if you watched enough of Dave's teardowns, you know exactly what I mean).

[denelec]

If you're working with logic circuits, maybe you should consider a logic analyzer instead of a multimeter or a scope.
If you already have a computer, a USB logic analyzer won't cost you much (<$200).

[zapta]

If you're working with logic circuits, maybe you should consider a logic analyzer instead of a multimeter or a scope.
If you already have a computer, a USB logic analyzer won't cost you much (<$200).

That's a good idea, if an oscilloscope is to expensive at the moment, a cheap logic analyzer (<50$) connected to your computer can be very useful for your logic work. Actually even if you have a scope, a logic analyzer is still very useful.

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[jaxbird]

As you are doing just hobby and probably not mains/high voltage stuff, I'd recommend not spending more than ~$50 on a DMM, e.g. the UT-61E. Even cheaper will probably do 95% of the time, it's likely not very often you really need high resolution and accuracy.

Next get a bench supply with adjustable voltage and current limiting, preferable both CV and CC.

And a cheap oscilloscope.

If I had to make a choice between a pro level DMM and no scope vs a cheap DMM and a cheap oscilloscope, I would always go for the cheap DMM + scope. Not having any oscilloscope is like working blindfolded. 

[Macbeth]

A cheap analog scope is essential. Your meter may be crude, but for low voltage stuff there is probably nothing wrong with it. A dual rail PSU is also essential. You can make your own, even a high amp job by using a discarded microwave oven transformer. I have an old 20MHz analog scope even though I have a 100MHz digital. You can't have enough test instruments!

[babysitter]

I would like to point you to the good old method of making your own test tools:

For Audio and even some very simple logic troubleshooting (can you hear a tone of the supposed frequency when you toggle a output, data burst detection etc), a Audio Amplifier with a Hi-Z Input connected to a speaker can tell you a lot about the circuit you are connected to. Its something you can certainly build using your existing multimeter.

Next, for logic, build a little logic probe: Window comparators that light a LED when a real LO, HI or "forbidden" Level on a probed signal is there. Additional AC-coupled LED indicator will tell you about transitions from HI to LOW, getting brighter (up to a point) the more transitions are there...

A Diode detector will give you Information about the amplitude of AC signals way beyond the AC range of your "crappy" DVM.

EDIT: Try to get in contact with other electronics enthusiasts (consider local ham radio club) for comparing your homemade tools against their superprofessional equipment!

[Stonent]

I've got a Micronta Digital MultiMeter (Metex rebrand) that I got in the late 90s for about $100.  Numerous Harbor Freight DT-830 clones, and a $50 Tenma 20MHz scope (Hung Chang rebrand)

I tend to use the cheap meters more now just because there's almost always one within reach, light,  they do microamps, test transistors and diodes and well, I'm not doing anything where 1% or better accuracy is critical.

Since 99% of what I mess with is 12V or less, I am not worried about the safety part of it and if I did need the safety, my Micronta Meter has a HRC fuse in it.

[mazurov]

I've got my first (pretty shitty) oscilloscope when I was 10yo and a first multimeter only when I started practicing EE professionally about 10 years later.  IMHO, the only way to master an instrument as versatile as a scope is to use it exclusively. I still prefer using a scope when I have it in front of me - you rarely need a precision of even 3.5 digits and tasks like sorting salvaged zeners with a scope is like 50x faster than any other method.

[JFA]

Get a secondhand Fluke Scopemeter 92 or 97 or 99 from eBay.  I think there is one advertised at the moment in very good condition.

I bought a 92 in 1997 and I am still using it.  It's cumbersome for field usage (as a DMM), but if you are on a budget, you'll live happily with it until you get richer.  For a student of electronics, it will allow you to visualise a lot of things that a DMM won't, and it will make you understand better and faster.  You can probably snatch one up for roughly 200$. Watch out though, the 92 does not have any maths on it, apart from division.  No multiplication (for power factors).  I does grab transient signals.

The bitch with this one is, no ammeter.  You could, as a project, build yourself a little shunt resistor box (which I did).

It is not a great bench scope, but is darn rugged, and is also a decent voltmeter (idea of decency vary, I agree). 

The battery packs tend to go, but you'll find a ton of them on eBay (4 NiMH or NiCd size C). Don't bother soldering your own, buy one allready made, they (assumedly) come with the charging tab.

The scope power pack is 12V DC and the Fluke engineer told me they can be run from a regular lead-acid battery.  I don't know if they can be run from a lighter plug (14-16V).

Circa 2006, I've done contract work for a gov't lab. We settled our rather discrete lab in my basement and we did all of the circuit debugging on with a old LCD Tektronix 2 traces and my Fluke 92 as a sidekick. We called them Batman and Robin. 

Maybe I should sell you mine... It will help finance a DS2072A-S ...  :-)

[vk6zgo]

If any of the second hand Flukes are at all reasonably priced,grab one!

I have a Fluke 77.
It's ancient,doesn't have a Frequency Counter,LCR test ,or transistor tester----none of which you really need!
It is rugged,reliable,& it doesn't turn off right when you are trying to test something,like most of the new "El Cheapo" stuff!

As to the Oscilloscope,if you can pick up a horrible old working local or Russki analog cheap,grab it too!
You can do do good work with even the cruddiest 'scope.

You don't need fancy readouts on your 'scope,---for most of what you want to look at,the graticule markings are near enough!

Buy a Scientific Calculator!
They are dirt cheap,& you will be amazed how often you will use it.
If your 'scope doesn't do the Maths,you have to------& you will learn more doing it.

[TopLoser]

Nice cheap Agilent meter still up for sale here, plus a couple of others:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/buysellwanted/fs-%28uk%29-assorted-fluke-agilent-gossen-metrix-multimeters-as-new-40-50-off/

[deth502]

i just want to add in my opinion you are ABSOLUTELY WRONG about not needing auto ranging. ive said the same thing many times. i have a few manual ranging meters,and the one i keep out (ie, easily accessible) is manual ranging. if i need a quick measurement on something, its great, and i really dont need an autoranging meter. but when i have to make 3, maybe 4, or more measurements, i am ALWAYS in the wrong range, and end up having to constantly change it, and want to throw it off a fucking cliff. i dont know why i continue to punish myself with it, or why anyone would not get an autoranging meter if they had the choice. frankly, i dont know why manul ranging meters even still exist.

[Cristian Nicolae]

@Dave ebay.co.uk and ebay.de might be good options for small equipment like a multimeter, but for larger equipment I'll most likely end up paying more for shipping than for the actual instrument. Right now I'm kinda set on getting one of those BK Precision meters that Dave was talking about in his 100$ shootout, it seems like good value for the money and the continuity buzzer is pretty darn fast. Amazon.com have it in their catalog and I'm wondering if they'll ship it to the EU without paying VAT like they do for books.

I also tried measuring mains with that DT (from a distance of course) and it doesn't show any reading, but it didn't explode either so I guess that's ok. It isn't really made for measuring mains, but it does work for measuring low-voltage AC.

@denelec I'll consider one at some point in the future but right now I think I'm gonna go with with a DSO, seeing as it's a more versatile instrument.
zapta

@babysitter I might take a look into building my own logic probe in the future, thanks for the advice. And about a HAM club, I don't know if there is one in my area, I guess I'll ask around the shops to see if they know anything.

@Stonent Thanks for the feedback, I guess I'll keep my DT around for some time as a backup meter.

@JFA Well, I don't know anything about scopemeters, I guess I'll look into it some time. Right now the only scope that seems like a good option for me is a local Philips-Fluke 40MHz 20 Meg Samples/s Combiscope that's going for 200 E. And if you were to sell me your scopemeter, probably shipping from Canada would be 50$ or something like that, so I dunno, I'll look into it and contact you if I decide that Fluke 92 would be a good option.

@vk6zgo Right now there's a Fluke 79 III on a local auction site, that's going for 150 E, which seems to be a good price for a good capable meter. However, right now the only advantage I can see the Fluke having to a BK Precision is ruggedness, otherwise they seem to be pretty much the same (for what I'm going to use it for). I might think about getting one of those old commie scopes if I'm really desperate. It's highly unlikely that they'll be in cal though, so I don't know how easy it would be to sort that out. The old Romanian scopes seem to have PDF service manuals floating around the net, so I guess I'll consider it as an option. They seem to be pretty standard for 80's scopes.

@deth502 Well for the sub 12V stuff that I usually do, I just yank my meter into the 20V range and that's that. For resistance, yeah it kinda gets old quick.  I've gotten used to it though, it doesn't really bother me. However I'd rather have a manual ranging meter rather than a slow auto-ranging one. I'll try to get a good auto-ranging meter sometime in the near future, but for now this one's doing a pretty decent job.

[Martin.M]

If you find in the bay an Tek 305DMM this is a 2 channels scope with full isolated autorange Multimeter in one case, mostly to buy for a small money.

See http://www.wellenkino.de/305DMM

greetings
Martin

[mike685s]

For a beginner a meter is great. However a static measurement is not good for dynamic circuits. It is always helpful to know that something is happening. For digital circuits a scope is essential. Frankly analog scopes are so cheap now it would be a shame not to pick one up

[M0BSW]

I agree with the others,and remember only buy what you can afford comfortably,it doesn't have to be Fluke, unless they read this and give you one. My advice "it's a hobby ". my meters are Uni-T 61E, it seems accurate enough, and Ideal Alphatek again Accurate enough for me, always look for a good deal, I got my Uni T from Franky on here, so can recommend him, you may get a deal, hope so..

[Dave Turner]

I agree with the idea that meters are the best bet when just starting out, but I would also suggest getting an analogue meter as well. It is surprising how much more sensitive the mind is to the movement of a needle than a digital display.  Then get an oscilloscope as funds permit.

[KJDS]

Romania is an expensive place to ship to from the UK, £50 for a scope sized box, compared to £20-25 for most of western Europe. I suspect that it would be cheaper buying things from Germany.