EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: canol on December 10, 2014, 10:25:23 am
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Hello,
We are manufacturing an electronics device which has a metal, grounded case. From time to time, when we touch this device ESD occurs. My questions are:
1 - Is this a common thing on devices with metal cases?
2 - How can I prevent it, or should I prevent it?
3- How is this prevented, for example, on laptops with aluminium cases? Are these cases not grounded?
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You are discharging the builtup charge into the grounded case.
This charge is built up from something else, and should probably not matter for the device.
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Exactly, it's not the device which has a charge built up, it's the person touching it that has the charge.
Do you observe full ESD precautions in your production area, e.g. conductive floor, ground straps for shoes or conductive anti-static shoes, wrist straps etc?
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We are a very small software start up with no production facility or something similar. We have a pretty primitive device which we put together under my observation (I am electrical engineer, others are not). So when ESD happens they asks questions like "is this dangerous?" or "is this unhealthy for us?". I am not very experienced either, all I know is ESD can happen when the case is conductive and grounded. But I also would like to know if this is common with metal cased "consumer" devices. And also if this is unhealthy if it is happening once or twice a day to a person touching the device. Should I take precautions so that the people using this device are not harmed?
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This is very common, happens with consumer devices regularly. There is no health issues with it.
Note that this can happen between anything, not only grounded devices. I.e. person-to-person, between a person or a plastic-device, and even between different devices.
Make sure you don't have any ESD issues during production or part handling and you should be fine.
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Low relative humidity + carpet = ESD
Harmless for humans but can be deadly for unprotected electronics. :-BROKE
I once fried my electronic alarm clock with an esd. Repaired it with a brain transplant (Picaxe).
Check the relative humidity of your workplace. If it is too low (<30%) consider an humidifier.
In winter, dry air is ofter a problem.
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We are manufacturing an electronics device which has a metal, grounded case. From time to time, when we touch this device ESD occurs.
If you have a grounded metal case, and people touch it, some of those people will be highly charged, and a discharge will occur. That's life. The question is, are problems occurring because of it? If the device is well designed it should function through the discharge with minimal disturbance. If it is poorly designed you might see poor behaviour, such as a blip in readings or a complete reset. You might even damage devices inside the box.
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3- How is this prevented, for example, on laptops with aluminium cases? Are these cases not grounded?
Laptops are usually not grounded, but floating using transformers.(see 2 pin mains plug)
That is what creates a "vibrating" sensation when you carefully drag you finger over the aluminum case. As do desktops that don't have earth connected.
It is something to be aware of, that when plugging in USB, a small current will flow shortly to get both grounds at the same potential. Sometimes a tiny current will always flow, depends on the isolation quality. This should be less then a mA, but can introduce noises and other issues.
Refer to Dave's "How not to blow up your oscilloscope" for some more details. Also, this topic has been discussed on the forum before.
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3- How is this prevented, for example, on laptops with aluminium cases? Are these cases not grounded?
Laptops are usually not grounded, but floating using transformers.(see 2 pin mains plug)
No, they are ground referenced these days in any country where a ground can be expected to be available.
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3- How is this prevented, for example, on laptops with aluminium cases? Are these cases not grounded?
Laptops are usually not grounded, but floating using transformers.(see 2 pin mains plug)
No, they are ground referenced these days in any country where a ground can be expected to be available.
Not always true. Take any metal Apple laptop (original Titanium PowerBook to current Unibodies); the AC adapter can be plugged into the wall two ways: With the three-prong cord *or* with the two-prong wall adapter-adapter.
With the later, you get the vibrations when sliding your fingers over laptop's case, not so much with the former.
Sent from my Tablet
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3- How is this prevented, for example, on laptops with aluminium cases? Are these cases not grounded?
Laptops are usually not grounded, but floating using transformers.(see 2 pin mains plug)
No, they are ground referenced these days in any country where a ground can be expected to be available.
Not always true. Take any metal Apple laptop (original Titanium PowerBook to current Unibodies); the AC adapter can be plugged into the wall two ways: With the three-prong cord *or* with the two-prong wall adapter-adapter.
With the later, you get the vibrations when sliding your fingers over laptop's case, not so much with the former.
Sent from my Tablet
That's because it's sold in a market where a reliable ground is not always available: The US. It's shit, and it shouldn't be allowed because the PSU is designed for a ground connection.
Virtually every switching power supply sold in the UK and most of the EU above 30W or so will have an earth contact.
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Uh, the adapter has a ground contact, it's just you have the option of connection said adapter to a three pin (grounded) cable *or* hooking a two-pin folding plug directly on, which makes it nice for travel! (To put it another way, you can convert an Apple AC adapter from a typical tabletop unit to a wall plug pack.)
And pretty much every outlet in the US is grounded, the exception being really, really old houses, but they've become the exception and not the rule in the last 20 years.
Sent from my Tablet
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What do you mean "ESD occurs"?
What do you mean by "grounded"? Is the case grounded to the circuit within? Does it have shielded connectors, and are they grounded to the case as well?
Tim
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Hello,
We are manufacturing an electronics device which has a metal, grounded case. From time to time, when we touch this device ESD occurs. My questions are:
1 - Is this a common thing on devices with metal cases?
2 - How can I prevent it, or should I prevent it?
3- How is this prevented, for example, on laptops with aluminium cases? Are these cases not grounded?
When I travel in cars with seat covers made with some woven fabric, I get this thing where when I get out of the car and go to close the door, the door "bites" me with a snap and a static discharge. It really puts me on edge, and I have lately resorted to gingerly closing car doors by pushing against the non-conductive window glass to avoid the jolt.
I suggest you can prevent the problem in your device by installing glass windows in the metal case and having your workers make sure to touch only the glass and not the metal.
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Uh, the adapter has a ground contact, it's just you have the option of connection said adapter to a three pin (grounded) cable *or* hooking a two-pin folding plug directly on
Which is a crock. It should not be allowed, the contact is there for a reason. Nobody else allows it.
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Uh, the adapter has a ground contact, it's just you have the option of connection said adapter to a three pin (grounded) cable *or* hooking a two-pin folding plug directly on
Which is a crock. It should not be allowed, the contact is there for a reason. Nobody else allows it.
Why? It goes through a transformer, so the laptop is floating. There's no high voltage on the output side and the adapter is made of plastic.
Sent from my Smartphone
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Why? It goes through a transformer, so the laptop is floating.
If it has an earth contact I can fairly well assure you it'll be earth referenced.
There's no high voltage on the output side and the adapter is made of plastic.
And the laptop is made of metal, and has an unpleasant leakage current sourced by the filter capacitors.
These adapters are illegal in the rest of western civilization.
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These adapters are illegal in the rest of western civilization.
So an EMI filter is illegal? These have Y-caps to ground, and create your leakage. Would you rather have an unfiltered supply?
Or a huge 50 Hz transformer with your laptop?
I'm missing the point. If you have an isolated supply, it will have leakage. If is has a ground tab to make it referenced, bonus! It will still fit in an non-earth EU socket, so it must stay safe without mains-earth connection. If mains earth is required for safe operation, it won't have a standard plug.
Get an medical grade certified laptop if you don't want any leakage.
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These adapters are illegal in the rest of western civilization.
So an EMI filter is illegal? These have Y-caps to ground, and create your leakage. Would you rather have an unfiltered supply?
No, an adapter to connect a device which requires an earth pin to a non-earthed outlet is illegal.
It will still fit in an non-earth EU socket, so it must stay safe without mains-earth connection. If mains earth is required for safe operation, it won't have a standard plug.
No, it will come with an appropriate 3 pin plug. Which is what you are meant to use. These are quite standard!
So far as I know, the US is the only market in which a device designed for a 3-pin supply comes with an adapter allowing you to connect it improperly.
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The device isn't designed for only a 3 pin plug though. That's the point you're missing.
Edit: I tell you what, I've got an old one here, I'll open it up and we'll solve this right now.
Sent from my Smartphone
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The device isn't designed for only a 3 pin plug though. That's the point you're missing.
Edit: I tell you what, I've got an old one here, I'll open it up and we'll solve this right now.
Sent from my Smartphone
Or let's solve it by referring you to my original point: Laptop supplies are 3-pin and earth referenced pretty much everywhere where an earth contact can be expected. Which is why there is one power supply for the UK, EU, Australia, and most of the rest of the planet, and another (usually two pin, Apple are an exception and a notable one with their full metal shockboxes) for the US (and yet, it's still a universal input supply designed for 230V operation, because it's a laptop).
Could this be because the manufacturers don't expect US users to be able to provide an earth? Or do they just do it for fun?
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Why would it even need to be earthed? They are a 15 volt supply in a plastic case? I did not get a copper earthing rod with my mac book for use when not connected to the 3 pin adapter they must have forgot to put it in the box! |O
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Thats the american incomprehension of safety. In EU, safety rules are very strict and only a few, hardly chinese crap products aren't compliant to these safety rules.
When you need a unearthed device, it must comply to even stricter rules of double insulation, and so. Switchmode PSU is hard to get designed right for the class II rules, no manufacturer woud not do that for fun. The insulation of class II devices must withstand 4kV~ pri-to-sec for 60 seconds. Someone having link to english version of the standards for class II devices in EU?
Yes, I also have an old Compaq laptop computer here with only two wire unearthed psu. But these things are no longer made for EU region and I suspect, that the computer wasn't made for EU either, because these earthing safety rules for electrical engineering are there for quite some time. I suspect, the computer problably has been imported from outside EU. I have got that from a local junk store.
See the PELV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Extra-low_voltage&redirect=no (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Extra-low_voltage&redirect=no)
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In the US most appliances are light loads so that's why we do fine with lower voltage, also neutral is grounded somewhere (but don't go touching it)
But enjoy eating your steaks with butter knifes, because you know that will be next :)
Show me statistics that show the contrary and how unsafe the US system really is:
http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-Statistics/pid/12015 (http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-Statistics/pid/12015)
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/ (http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/)
Oh, btw take if from some UK EE guy:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4535712&postcount=5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4535712&postcount=5)
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Grounded outlets became mandatory in North America somewhere in the '60s.
So a lot of homes built before that time mainly have ungrounded outlets.
I've seen a lot of ground pins ripped so the device could be plugged in an old outlet. Very unsafe. :palm:
I once got shocked using a rented rug cleaner with a ripped ground plug. :--
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In the US most appliances are light loads so that's why we do fine with lower voltage, also neutral is grounded somewhere (but don't go touching it)
But enjoy eating your steaks with butter knifes, because you know that will be next :)
Show me statistics that show the contrary and how unsafe the US system really is:
http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-Statistics/pid/12015 (http://www.esfi.org/index.cfm/page/Injury-and-Fatality-Statistics/pid/12015)
http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/ (http://www.electricalsafetyfirst.org.uk/news-and-campaigns/policies-and-research/statistics/)
Oh, btw take if from some UK EE guy:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4535712&postcount=5 (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=4535712&postcount=5)
Forgive me if I don't listen to someone who thinks our supply voltage is 220V.
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When I travel in cars with seat covers made with some woven fabric, I get this thing where when I get out of the car and go to close the door, the door "bites" me with a snap and a static discharge. It really puts me on edge, and I have lately resorted to gingerly closing car doors by pushing against the non-conductive window glass to avoid the jolt.
If the car door has a metal frame (like most/all non-convertibles), then the trick to this is:- open the door
- grab the top of the door with your bare hand
- then step out of the door (still holding on to the car door.)
Side benefit: if you happen to step out onto ice, you're already holding onto something ;)
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Thats the american incomprehension of safety. In EU, safety rules are very strict and only a few, hardly chinese crap products aren't compliant to these safety rules.
When you need a unearthed device, it must comply to even stricter rules of double insulation, and so. Switchmode PSU is hard to get designed right for the class II rules, no manufacturer woud not do that for fun. The insulation of class II devices must withstand 4kV~ pri-to-sec for 60 seconds. Someone having link to english version of the standards for class II devices in EU?
Yes, I also have an old Compaq laptop computer here with only two wire unearthed psu. But these things are no longer made for EU region and I suspect, that the computer wasn't made for EU either, because these earthing safety rules for electrical engineering are there for quite some time. I suspect, the computer problably has been imported from outside EU. I have got that from a local junk store.
See the PELV:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Extra-low_voltage&redirect=no (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Extra-low_voltage&redirect=no)
Huh, it must be certified to those strict rules then!
(http://tapatalk.imageshack.com/v2/14/12/14/959fb260a2bef032dbf0a8ac9bdb2f8b.jpg)
Sent from my Smartphone
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Just slightly OT, but Apple makes these modular power adapters with nice interchangeable mains plugs, but can you buy a genuine Apple plug adapter for a different country? Can you heck! There are times when I think Apple has completely lost the plot.
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Don't those adaptors have only two wires in and two out? Nothing strange at all then, huh?
But one of your colleagues here mentioned, that some products in USA come with an adaptor, which allows you to plug threewire (separate earth) device into two wire installation. Which is wrong, in EU it is forbidden. Any of our inspection technician would likely want to kill ya, If he would see you doing such a thing. >:D
Summary: In EU, there is no way you can plug a device with threee wires (Class I, L N PE) to a two wire socket.
Threewire EU plug simply does not fit into two wire socket (we have almost none twowire sockets, 99% of them are like german Schuko type, finding a socket for 3w plug is not a problem at all). And any power adaptors from 2 to 3 wires are forbidden, illegal and brutal safety risk.
On the other hand, 3 to 2 wires adaptors exist. The 2w plug fits into 3w, but these 3-to-2 adaptors are made with more than one output sockets. They allow you to connect more 2w (Class II) devices into 3w socket. Which is right, because 2w (Class II) device are made safer than safe, they don't need to be earthed.
See? The 2w plug fits there: http://i3.cn.cz/1131518818_zasuvka.jpg (http://i3.cn.cz/1131518818_zasuvka.jpg)
But here you just can't fit the 3w plug. Impossible. Simply no way. Any attempt of that is illegal and safety risk. http://www.elektrahk.cz/gif/e030200.gif (http://www.elektrahk.cz/gif/e030200.gif)
Or did I understood the american adaptors wrongly? I think that it is obvious, why trying to plug 3w device into 2w socket is a safety risk.
It is a little more complicated, it would be a nice discussion, but it doesn't fit here, I don't like making mess in threads :-)
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Summary: In EU, there is no way you can plug a device with threee wires (Class I, L N PE) to a two wire socket.
Not true. Houses are equipped with these in the walls: http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg (http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg)
And you can buy those at your local diy shop. They'll fit all plug.
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Just slightly OT, but Apple makes these modular power adapters with nice interchangeable mains plugs, but can you buy a genuine Apple plug adapter for a different country? Can you heck! There are times when I think Apple has completely lost the plot.
Like this kit (http://store.apple.com/au/product/MB974ZM/B/apple-world-travel-adapter-kit) that contains them all + a USB charger?
FWIW I've bought the individual heads for US & UK plugs too - they're not listed online & probably aren't in stores, but they were available as spare parts (or were a few years ago) from a local Apple business/edu dealer.
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So far as I know, the US is the only market in which a device designed for a 3-pin supply comes with an adapter allowing you to connect it improperly.
The genuine Apple (iPod/Iphone) chargers I own don't have a grounded output, and the output floats at a pretty high voltage (90v or so measured to ground) which you can definitely feel (as someone else mentioned, it feels like the surface is vibrating).
Apple isn't the only one though, many (probably most) "wall wart" chargers/adapters have a plastic earth pin with class Y caps across the transformer to reduce EMI, and yet they invariably have the "double isolated" symbol on them. AFAIK an appliance could only be rated as double isolated if failure of a single component couldn't expose the user the dangerous voltages, but if the EMI cap shorted this would be dangerous.
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So far as I know, the US is the only market in which a device designed for a 3-pin supply comes with an adapter allowing you to connect it improperly.
AFAIK an appliance could only be rated as double isolated if failure of a single component couldn't expose the user the dangerous voltages, but if the EMI cap shorted this would be dangerous.
It means what it says, double insulated, not double component. By single component you can call optocoupler and transformer too.
These products are required to prevent any failure from resulting in dangerous voltage levels becoming exposed causing a shock etc. This must be done without the aid of an earthed metal casing. Ways of achieving this include double layers of insulating material or reinforced insulation protecting any live parts of the fitting.
There are also strict requirements relating to the maximum insulation resistance and leakage to any functional earth or signal connections of such appliances.
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Summary: In EU, there is no way you can plug a device with threee wires (Class I, L N PE) to a two wire socket.
Not true. Houses are equipped with these in the walls: http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg (http://static.webshopapp.com/shops/004230/files/001612800/gira-079803-2-voudige-stopcontact-zwg.jpg)
And you can buy those at your local diy shop. They'll fit all plug.
This is type C socket, prohibited in most countries which have people with at least some intelligence. Sweden prohivited them in 1994, so did other countries. Usage possible only up to 2.5 Amps IT (isolated) mains. If you use them, poor you, poor your country. I've never seen these suckers anywhere. Maybe countries using Schuko/French type sockets (as does our country) have a little bit more sense for safety, not allowing any so dumb things like not using mains earth. So I think I was wrong, not the whole EU is so smart, so I will modify that statement to "some smarter EU countries". >:D
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I don't want to sound like an idiot but I have been experiencing this too because when I touched the screws of my grounded power supply, I got a shock. The problem persists even after I've worn an anti-static strap. Does anybody know what's the problem?
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I really don't know what to say, after reading about so much confusion and safety risking in many countries, including USA and possibly Netherlands.
This would not just happen to you here. Safety regulations on electrical installations are tight here. Almost zero possibility you could get here live screwhead even whole metal case of an appliance.
By the way, do our american and dutch colleagues know what RCD is? I don't know, if they use it, possibly not. Just another interresting safety device, required (in our country and I think all neighbouring countries such as Germany, Austria, Poland, Slovakia...) in all new installations and all places with increased safety risk, such as wet rooms, sockets outside of ur house, installations in wood structures and for appliances submerged in water (water pumps)...
And sure enough, RCD can work only in TN-S mains, so we have here no room for such shits as type C wall sockets.
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I don't want to sound like an idiot but I have been experiencing this too because when I touched the screws of my grounded power supply, I got a shock. The problem persists even after I've worn an anti-static strap. Does anybody know what's the problem?
Yes, you probably don't have an earth at all.
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By the way, do our american and dutch colleagues know what RCD is?
Yes, they are mandatory since forever. One 30 mA RCD every 4 x 16 Amp breaker.
We call them Aardlekschakelaar, which translates to "earth leakage switch".
Unfortunately our house build somewhere 198x is completely fitted with IEC Type C. Except for kitchen, garage and attic with central heater/washer/dryer. They are still sold around here, bought one two weeks ago to repair a damaged switch-socket combi.
I've exceeded that 2.5 Amp limit a lot. Probably exceeding it now, since that is only 600 Watts. And my entire desk is on it.
Earth for my desk is coming from the copper* central heating pipes. Yes I know I shouldn't. Do as he says right?
Some intelligence you say?
*They are plastic nowadays.
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I don't want to sound like an idiot but I have been experiencing this too because when I touched the screws of my grounded power supply, I got a shock. The problem persists even after I've worn an anti-static strap. Does anybody know what's the problem?
Current must have a complete circuit to flow. Since you have not revealed the REST of the circuit, no, nobody knows what your problem is.
If you want to fill in some details, maybe we can try to offer some suggestions.
Consider details like:
What does "shock" mean? Are you talking about a momentary discharge? Or a continuous "tingling"? or what exactly?
When you say "my grounded power supply", is this a commercial unit, or a home-made gadget?
How do you know your power supply is "grounded"? How do you know it isn't broken?
Do you get the same "shock" (however you are defining it?) from other things that are "grounded"?
Do you have a meter that you can use to test things with?
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I have to laugh every time I read the subject line of this thread. :-DD
It is like saying that guard rails cause car crashes.
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By the way, do our american and dutch colleagues know what RCD is?
No we don't but do you know what GFCI is? ;)
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By the way, do our american and dutch colleagues know what RCD is?
No we don't but do you know what GFCI is? ;)
A letter too far.
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It means what it says, double insulated, not double component. By single component you can call optocoupler and transformer too.
These products are required to prevent any failure from resulting in dangerous voltage levels becoming exposed causing a shock etc. This must be done without the aid of an earthed metal casing. Ways of achieving this include double layers of insulating material or reinforced insulation protecting any live parts of the fitting.
There are also strict requirements relating to the maximum insulation resistance and leakage to any functional earth or signal connections of such appliances.
In which case no charger/adapter that exposes the output connections (e.g. with a DC power plug or 3.5mm jack plug) should be able to be rated as Class 2 ("Double isolated"), since a single failure could result in dangerous voltages on the output. However, I have a couple of brick chargers in front of me that have the double isolated icon on them.