Author Topic: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?  (Read 11822 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Housedad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 512
  • Country: us
Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« on: March 02, 2017, 08:35:11 pm »
Just Wow.  I have never seen anything constructed like this.  It looks intrinsically very unsafe.   Has anyone ever see anything like this rat circuit construction?  Maybe I just live a cloistered life.  I saw it here:  http://qrp-popcorn.blogspot.com/2016_11_01_archive.html



At least I'm still older than my test equipment
 
The following users thanked this post: jonovid

Offline technogeeky

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 541
  • Country: us
  • Older New "New Player" Player Playa'
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2017, 08:43:02 pm »
Yes. This is how things were done before the invention of circuit boards (and then printed circuit boards).

It even has a name: point-to-point circuit assembly.

It's still used today, too:



This video examines this technique in this video and some of his others show it as well. I presume that this is somewhere between impractical and impossible for some high voltage circuits, but for many circuits (including RF circuits) it can be very good and very high performance.
 

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4310
  • Country: us
  • KE7GKP
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2017, 08:43:39 pm »
It is just one type of free-form construction technique more commonly used for analog (and particularly RF) circuits.
See also:
Dead Bug:  https://www.google.com/search?q=dead+bug+construction+style&source=lnms&tbm=isch
Manhattan: https://www.google.com/search?q=manhattan+electronic+construction+style&source=lnms&tbm=isch

Not clear what appears to be "very unsafe"?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 08:47:39 pm by Richard Crowley »
 

Offline GreggD

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 118
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2017, 08:55:48 pm »
Building on a ground plane, great technique. This is how the also great Jim Williams did quick development and so did I.
 

Offline edpalmer42

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1633
  • Country: ca
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #4 on: March 02, 2017, 08:56:22 pm »
My favorite name for this is "dead bug" style.

It looks like a disaster, but it gives very good performance for RF and high speed digital circuits because everything is built on the ground plane, the leads can be very short, and capacitance to ground will be very low for leads connected through the air.  I used this technique to build a circuit that squares up a 10 MHz sine wave, divides it by 10K, and then attenuates the output.  I've attached a picture of the output pulse.  The horizontal axis is sample intervals of 100 ps.  The vertical axis is volts across a 50 ohm load.

Ed
 

Offline Farley

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 87
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #5 on: March 02, 2017, 08:57:05 pm »
This is also sometimes referred to as "ugly construction." It's used for low voltage circuits, typically 12VDC or less. It works well for quick construction of RF circuits as Richard Crowley stated.

Dave Richards (AA7EE) has made an art-form of this construction technique.
For example https://aa7ee.wordpress.com/2013/10/19/the-vk3ye-micro-40-dsb-transceiver/

 

Offline ataradov

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5944
  • Country: us
    • Personal site
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #6 on: March 02, 2017, 09:02:42 pm »
Not only this is common in RF designs, there are even tools for cutting small island in the copper.

Can't find commercial examples at the moment, but here is an example of homemade one - http://hackaday.com/2012/07/20/cutting-islands-into-copper-clad-pcbs-with-a-drill/
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:05:51 pm by ataradov »
Alex
 

Offline danadak

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
  • Country: us
  • Reactor Operator SSN-583, Retired EE
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:14:23 pm by danadak »
Love Cypress PSOC, ATTiny, Bit Slice, OpAmps, Oscilloscopes, and Analog Gurus like Pease, Miller, Widlar, Dobkin, obsessed with being an engineer
 

Offline Housedad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 512
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2017, 09:12:07 pm »
Fascinating.  I did not ever realize this technique existed.  I can also see that there is different levels of build quality and neatness.   Thank you for the explanations!   I now have something new to research and learn, and I always love to learn something new.   You mentioned that this was a early method of construction.   I wonder if this is part and parcel with the old wood "breadboard" building.
At least I'm still older than my test equipment
 

Offline Housedad

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 512
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #9 on: March 02, 2017, 09:15:34 pm »
I can only figure that I never learned about this since I was mostly steeped in digital and small power circuits when I stopped electronics 25 to 30 years ago.   I never did RF or power circuits like audio amps .  I just had no exposure as everything was learned from books and there was no massive library of info at your fingertips like the internet.  The speed at which we CAN learn now is just amazing compared to just a very short few years ago.   Well, at least I will not be as ignorant about this construction method for long.

I am actually excited to learn more about this.  Something New to me.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 09:24:11 pm by Housedad »
At least I'm still older than my test equipment
 

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4310
  • Country: us
  • KE7GKP
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2017, 09:38:10 pm »
Several decades ago, a company called "International Eyelets" made a set of microscopic "hole-saw" like tools. They look just like the kind you use to make giant holes in wood, except that they are just a few mm in diameter. And with a replaceable drill bit in the middle.  They cut very nice round pads in copper-clad board with a hole in the middle for thru-hole components or you can remove the drill to cut a blind pad.  I wish someone still made them   :(
 

Offline senso

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 878
  • Country: pt
    • My AVR tutorials
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #11 on: March 02, 2017, 09:56:28 pm »
 

Offline 128er

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 229
  • Country: de
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #12 on: March 02, 2017, 10:00:52 pm »
I could not resist to post a picture of Jim Williams desk in this topic  :)

 
The following users thanked this post: ebastler

Offline testian

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 54
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #13 on: March 02, 2017, 10:21:04 pm »
I have never seen something like this before. Looks like art to me.
 
The following users thanked this post: mixiom

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1074
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #14 on: March 02, 2017, 10:26:29 pm »
Just Wow.  I have never seen anything constructed like this.  It looks intrinsically very unsafe.   Has anyone ever see anything like this rat circuit construction?  Maybe I just live a cloistered life.  I saw it here:  http://qrp-popcorn.blogspot.com/2016_11_01_archive.html

I built (almost) an entire LF-1 GHz receiver and trunk-tracking scanner that way.  It stayed online for 10 years with roughly four-nines uptime.  I only took it down when the second replacement hard drive died.
 

Offline danadak

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
  • Country: us
  • Reactor Operator SSN-583, Retired EE
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #15 on: March 02, 2017, 10:41:20 pm »
Then there is this (download the software and take a look) -


http://routaboard.com/





Regards, Dana.
Love Cypress PSOC, ATTiny, Bit Slice, OpAmps, Oscilloscopes, and Analog Gurus like Pease, Miller, Widlar, Dobkin, obsessed with being an engineer
 

Offline danadak

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1875
  • Country: us
  • Reactor Operator SSN-583, Retired EE
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2017, 10:44:23 pm »
Looks like they are still in business -


http://www.intl-eyelets.com/


Regards, Dana.
Love Cypress PSOC, ATTiny, Bit Slice, OpAmps, Oscilloscopes, and Analog Gurus like Pease, Miller, Widlar, Dobkin, obsessed with being an engineer
 
The following users thanked this post: Gregg

Offline Richard Crowley

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4310
  • Country: us
  • KE7GKP
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #17 on: March 02, 2017, 11:11:54 pm »
Looks like they are still in business -
http://www.intl-eyelets.com/
Yes, but they don't sell those cutters anymore.  They only sell eyelets.

It looks like they sold the product to Vector.
https://www.vectorelect.com/pad-cutters.html

Although it appears they only work with pre-drilled holes (like Vector board!)
And they no longer have replaceable center drills.
And the price has exploded to US$ 77  !   :o

« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 11:18:39 pm by Richard Crowley »
 

Offline KE5FX

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1074
  • Country: us
    • KE5FX.COM
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #18 on: March 02, 2017, 11:51:51 pm »
It always amazes me to see how much trouble people will go through to avoid using the quickest, easiest, and most effective analog prototyping methodology known to man.
 
The following users thanked this post: nugglix

Offline edpalmer42

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1633
  • Country: ca
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #19 on: March 03, 2017, 12:26:28 am »
Looks like they are still in business -
http://www.intl-eyelets.com/
Yes, but they don't sell those cutters anymore.  They only sell eyelets.

It looks like they sold the product to Vector.
https://www.vectorelect.com/pad-cutters.html

Although it appears they only work with pre-drilled holes (like Vector board!)
And they no longer have replaceable center drills.
And the price has exploded to US$ 77  !   :o



No, the pad cutter is just used to cut the traces on a Vector stripboard.  It doesn't create Manhattan-style pads.

Ed
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3581
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #20 on: March 03, 2017, 12:37:00 am »
There are plenty these kind of small hole saws available from eBay and hobby stores in various sizes that can be used for cutting pads.

 
The following users thanked this post: Richard Crowley

Online james_s

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9490
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #21 on: March 03, 2017, 01:31:29 am »
Dead Bug construction has been around forever. I could never bring myself to build something that ugly, but it does have a lot of advantages for RF circuits. If you want to prototype something radio related it's still an excellent technique due to the large and un-interupted ground plane.
 

Offline David Hess

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9905
  • Country: us
  • DavidH
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2017, 02:33:52 am »
It is also used for low leakage and precision circuits; air is an excellent insulator.
 

Offline eugenenine

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 786
  • Country: us
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2017, 02:37:09 am »
My favorite name for this is "dead bug" style.



Thats still on a PCB though so its not dead bug.  Dead bug's main characteristic is lack of a PCB.
 

Offline linux-works

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1939
  • Country: us
    • netstuff
Re: Has anyone ever seen this construction technique before?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2017, 02:44:43 am »
power designs (pdi), early build style:



for fun, I built a tiny oscillator air-wire style:



 
The following users thanked this post: jonovid


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf