EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Electronics => Beginners => Topic started by: TheBritishGuy on August 03, 2021, 07:33:25 pm
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Moderator warning: This post is spam and the product clearly an overpriced scam. The user has been banned but the thread will remain for information and entertainment :popcorn:
Hey guys,
British Guy here, I'm new to this so apologies if I say anything untoward.
I wondered if I could hear your thoughts on a new HDMI cable I just bought.
So..... it all started when I realised my lg tv hdmi not working and I basically ended up looking into improving my entire home set-up, including purchasing a premium high speed hdmi cable (alongside a new playstation and an 8K TV). I looked around and saw the extortionate prices on future shop so figured I would go for a UKHDMI company that had a good quality product but without the pricing.
Link to the webpage is here https://bunu.tech/M-Premium%20HDMI%20UK/home.html (https://bunu.tech/M-Premium%20HDMI%20UK/home.html)
So this product was 59.99 but was listed as a premium certified HDMI Cable UK. My question is: what is the efficacy of this product and does the marketing hype match up to my expectations of what it can do.
There's stuff in the leaflet like HDMI ultra HD Deep Color and I can't see no difference in picture quality if I'm honest with you.
Any advice appreciated.
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Return it and buy the cheapest cable you can find. It will work exactly the same.
+1
The golddigger days of audiophool cable madness are over.
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Just a hint as you're a newbie. Double posting is frowned upon here, people tend to get irritated by finding that other people have already supplied the same information. It makes you pretty unpopular with the Mods.
This applies doubly when you're posting links to a sales website. Curiously, also in Leeds like you. ;)
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/rhodiumnano-crystal-plug-socket-snake-oil/msg3620229/#msg3620229 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/dodgy-technology/rhodiumnano-crystal-plug-socket-snake-oil/msg3620229/#msg3620229)
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Return it and buy the cheapest cable you can find. It will work exactly the same.
One would think, but actually, not always. Low-end HDMI cables are missing features like ARC, their max resolution can be lower. I had one, which seems to work fine, except every few hours the sound cuts off.
Signal integrity is a real thing. Also missing wires.
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premium certified HDMI Cable UK
Premium certified bullshit I suspect. For short cables (<2m), unless it's the cheapest substandard crap for China, everything should work the same. £3 or £1000 will make no difference. Maybe if you really need 8k @ 60Hz some cables may not work as should, but even for 4k @ 60Hz there should be no difference as long as cable was made according to standard.
There's stuff in the leaflet like HDMI ultra HD Deep Color and I can't see no difference in picture quality if I'm honest with you.
HDMI is a digital signal. It either works or it doesn't. Anyone who claims that cable affects picture quality if full of BS.
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The short answer is NO. If you're paying £60 for a HDMI cable from companies like Bunu, you're getting ripped off. They are absolutely no better than the good quality, brand name cables you can buy at any supermarket or office supply store.
Particularly when the sales pitch on Bunu's website is complete bullshit. I'd love to know why:
- "Product of the year" means anything. (Hint, it doesn't!)
- You claim that the "professional" audio and video industry use HDMI. They don't, they use SDI.
- Connectors that are "typically unavailable within the retail market"... well that's just a lie.
- What is "intelligent insulation", do you perhaps just mean "plastic"?
- "A studio quality experience"... what does that mean? More bullshit?
- "Multi-platform compatibility"... it's a dumb cable. What does "platform" have anything to do with it?
- Why does a cable need "anti-static packaging"?
- What is a "transfer rate of up to 10K"?
- Why is it that Bunu's rip-off cable performs exactly the same as a Comsol's AUD$30 cable (plus the Comsol branded one is longer)?
There's stuff in the leaflet like HDMI ultra HD Deep Color and I can't see no difference in picture quality if I'm honest with you.
I think you just answered your own question. There is no difference. It's all marketing bullshit.
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HDMI works or doesn't work. There are cases where it can work with colored speckles type snow in the image. It is this case where the HDMI cable is either too long for your AV equipment, or the cable isn't high quality enough for the video resolution you are using it at. Once you have a speckle free image, the picture and sound wont get better than that. The data from you source is reaching the destination error free. Remember, HDMI is digital, not analog.
When I say 'too long for your AV equipment', in this instance, yes some AV TV/receivers can better tolerate longer or lousy quality HDMI cables, but again, such a problem is dead obvious in no picture at all or plain to see colored speckles type snow in the image.
- You claim that the "professional" audio and video industry use HDMI. They don't, they use SDI.
You better believe it... No industry professional deals with the pathetic HDMI cable and it's pitiful plug and limited cable run length unless it is forced upon them as in on a PC at a workstation desk with a monitor which usually comes with it's own HDMI cable.
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I pay about $8 for mine
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KRKO4MM (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01KRKO4MM)
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I have seen HDMI cables that did not work well, this is especially likely if you are pushing the limits on length at high resolution, an inadequate cable can cause the signal to glitch or drop out. That doesn't mean you have to spend a lot of money though, there are some quite good quality cables that are modestly priced and there are some very expensive cables that offer nothing special other than looking fancy. The thing I don't like about the expensive boutique stuff aside from the price is that it's often excessively thick and stiff. I've seen jacks on equipment damaged by heavy/stiff cables that apply a large side load. This was common with RCA jacks too, those expensive cables would wrench the jack right off the back of the equipment when it got pushed back up to the wall.
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Remember, HDMI is digital, not analog.
I do wish ppl would stop saying this. Once you have a signal in a cable you have to treat it as analog - with attenuation, noise, group delay, impedance mismatch, differential to common mode conversion, jitter, delay mismatch - all things that affect the signal slicing at the receiver where the signal gets converted back into 1's and 0's. Ever seen an eye-diagram?
For short cables and lower data rates those things are less of an issue, but once you start trying to send 4:4:4 video at 4K resolution over a 10m cable, then you really need to be careful with the cable and connector construction. That's going to be more expensive - not "unicorn poo" expensive, but definitely more than "slap two connectors on some wire, and hope" expensive.
I'm not advocating for $1000 magic pixie dust cables , but there is some validity in spending a bit more on higher quality in some situations ( long lengths and high bandwidths).
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Remember, HDMI is digital, not analog.
I do wish ppl would stop saying this. Once you have a signal in a cable you have to treat it as analog - with attenuation, noise, group delay, impedance mismatch, differential to common mode conversion, jitter, delay mismatch - all things that affect the signal slicing at the receiver where the signal gets converted back into 1's and 0's. Ever seen an eye-diagram?
Yes, I've seen an eye diagram. If the received signal is properly 'cable length equalized' in the receiver's front end and the eye diagram fits inside the valid sample window, the digital source data on one side will be received as equivilant data on the second side.
So, I stand exactly by my statement. The HDMI signal is digital data regardless of the analog domain involved in the transmission and components required to compensate for the cable length on the receiver side. Bit errors stand out like a sore thumb, and if the engineers of the HDMI receiver side ICs wished to do so, and I wish they did, it could also be possible to create a bit error detector/counter to report such errors which couldn't be effectively done if HDMI was an analog signal. So, if you cannot cope with that, it is not my problem.
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I can second twospoons. I was in charge of the networks at a prior position. The copper mattered. Cat5 can't do the job of Cat5e or Cat6. The quality of the crimp matters. The quality of the connector matters.
However, don't buy a fancy cable. Just buy one that meets spec.
Also go with lighter plastic insulation. HDMI female connectors are fragile A thick, heavy plastic insulation cable will do more harm than good.
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Cables with inferior and leaky shielding will radiate more than better cables.
Could affect performance of nearby WiFi systems.
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Return it and buy the cheapest cable you can find. It will work exactly the same.
One would think, but actually, not always. Low-end HDMI cables are missing features like ARC, their max resolution can be lower.
All HDMI cables support ARC, and the cable does not control the resolution :-//
I had one, which seems to work fine, except every few hours the sound cuts off.
Signal integrity is a real thing. Also missing wires.
Yes, if a cable is intermittent, you should replace it, but that doesn't mean you need to pay 60 pounds. I have never encountered an intermittent HDMI cable, or one with inadequate signal integrity, or missing wires, even when I paid as little as $1.
It controls bandwidth, and higher resolution requires higher bandwidth, which requires different distance between loops, isolation and conductors.
High quality cables are thicker just because there is more plastic between the conductors to keep the crosstalk down. And I have cable that doesnt support ARC.
I can second twospoons. I was in charge of the networks at a prior position. The copper mattered. Cat5 can't do the job of Cat5e or Cat6. The quality of the crimp matters. The quality of the connector matters.
However, don't buy a fancy cable. Just buy one that meets spec.
Also go with lighter plastic insulation. HDMI female connectors are fragile A thick, heavy plastic insulation cable will do more harm than good.
Exactly, if this would be Ethernet, nobody would question the different category, bandwidth and signal integrity of it.
I'm not saying you need to buy the 60 pound supa-dupa cable, I'm saying that there are differences between cables, and it is not as simple as "Its digital, doesnt matter"
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HDMI - Is expensive better?
It's more along the lines of "cheapest can be worse". Under a certain price point you may experience issues - I've had an exceptionally cheap HDMI cable (like 3 EUR?) and my setup had issues with it. Bought a normal priced one (10 EUR I think?), no issues.
That said, 60 EUR for a simple cable is nonsense. The marketing stuff like "Deeper color with this cable" is pure bollocks.
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Dont waste hour hard earned and dont pay more than fiver for it! It works or it dosent and special gold and magic condcutors make no difference at all.
Stay away from PC world.
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Remember, HDMI is digital, not analog.
I do wish ppl would stop saying this. Once you have a signal in a cable you have to treat it as analog - with attenuation, noise, group delay, impedance mismatch, differential to common mode conversion, jitter, delay mismatch - all things that affect the signal slicing at the receiver where the signal gets converted back into 1's and 0's. Ever seen an eye-diagram?
For short cables and lower data rates those things are less of an issue, but once you start trying to send 4:4:4 video at 4K resolution over a 10m cable, then you really need to be careful with the cable and connector construction. That's going to be more expensive - not "unicorn poo" expensive, but definitely more than "slap two connectors on some wire, and hope" expensive.
I'm not advocating for $1000 magic pixie dust cables , but there is some validity in spending a bit more on higher quality in some situations ( long lengths and high bandwidths).
I'm glad to see a common sense answer. The encoding for HDMI may be digital, but it's certainly not a digital signal once outside of software/firmware.
Cables suffer loss, impedance mismatching, susceptibility to external factors. Buy the cheapest cable you can find and it might work OK, but it might not. For longer lengths, quality absolutely matters, but separating marketing crap from technical specifications is not always trivial. Best thing to do is to stick to brands like Lindy and not worry.
Dont waste hour hard earned and dont pay more than fiver for it! It works or it dosent and special gold and magic condcutors make no difference at all.
Stay away from PC world.
Again, not true.
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For a couple years I had a HDMI connection between my cable box and AVR that never worked because the cable box reported that DRM could not be confirmed even though my Denon AVR was fully compliant. This led me to use component video and TOSLINK connections. At some point I tried to connect my laptop to the AVR with that same HDMI cable and encountered more problems but not the same DRM issues. I changed out the HDMI cable and everything worked fine. I will further note that both HDMI cables were cheap 3m cables that I probably bought at the same time. I think they were in the $10 range. So, buy more than one if going cheap.
I will also add that I am one of those that profited nicely from the magic cable craze of the 80s and 90s, so I'm sensitive to the claims of $ = performance. Get the cheap one, but get several.
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Get the cheap one, but get several.
Or take chance out the equation and get one that costs the price of several cheap cables?
Somewhere from £5-£20 is reasonable for a decent HDMI cable that is constructed well and likely to have good quality screen, copper conductors (not CCA) and the correct number of twists per meter.
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I do wish ppl would stop saying this. Once you have a signal in a cable you have to treat it as analog - with attenuation, noise, group delay, impedance mismatch, differential to common mode conversion, jitter, delay mismatch - all things that affect the signal slicing at the receiver where the signal gets converted back into 1's and 0's. Ever seen an eye-diagram?
For short cables and lower data rates those things are less of an issue, but once you start trying to send 4:4:4 video at 4K resolution over a 10m cable, then you really need to be careful with the cable and connector construction. That's going to be more expensive - not "unicorn poo" expensive, but definitely more than "slap two connectors on some wire, and hope" expensive.
Exactly this.
Most people saying it does not matter probably have short cables running max HD at 5Gb/s-9Gb/s.
When you have 4k HDR 4:4:2 and >6m cable lengths you are in the >15Gb/s and as TS even 8k you are in the 40+Gb/s datarates, then it becomes a lottery if it will always work.
What I advise then is buy an active HDMI cable or even better an optical HDMI cable.
These cables use matched electronic transmitter / receivers at both ends of the cable are unidirectionally only (so look at the arrow) and are not that enormous expensive, say around €100.-
I started using these four years ago between my UHD player - prepro - 4k laser projector with 10m cable length and never had any issues since.
Siderant: can those morons of the HDMI standardization board pretty please for the high end gear please try to come up with some decent industrial grade connector that has strain relief and full metal enclosure instead of these $2 junk connectors on a $10k piece of equipment.
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Price does not predict performance, cheap is often just as good but you don't pay for the extra layers of bullshit and pretty box.
Quite likely cheap mass produced item may turn out better than an expensive one where budget goes into BS rather than designing and testing for actual performance.
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BTW that BUNU is super short 1m cable. So basically any trash will work even for very high pixel clock at this length.
BUNU HDMI’s connector is a 1M cable featuring superior connection capabilities, intelligent insulation to improve picture and sound quality, and is compatible with all major devices.
:bullshit:
FWIW for this price you can buy a 15m fiber optic HDMI cable which supports 8K@60Hz.
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My practical experience can confirm this. I've been buying cables since the early days of RS232 and can confirm that cables make a huge difference. A good cable isn't always the high cost solution either. In the case of the different generations of video cables you like wise can run into quality issue. Often these quality issues are more the result of mechanical failures, that is a cable that isn't durable.
Durability brings up the one company I love to hate, Apple, and the crappy USB cables they sell. They prove that there is not a correlation with price and quality. Effectively they have a high cost, low quality, USB cables that are out performed by random supermarket cables. This is more about cable mechanical durability but electrical performance can be an issue.
So I look at it this way: quality cables do not have to have a high price tag, that is number one. Cheap cables, that is cables built out of crap, can be high cost.
Even more important to realize is that cables are a lucrative profit center for many chain stores. The fancy boxes the cables come in are there to get people to believe that the cable is worth it. Often the stores leave you with no alternative, rationally priced, cables because they love the high profits the glossy boxes afford them. It isn't a given that the cables have any performance advantages at all over lower cost models.
Remember, HDMI is digital, not analog.
I do wish ppl would stop saying this. Once you have a signal in a cable you have to treat it as analog - with attenuation, noise, group delay, impedance mismatch, differential to common mode conversion, jitter, delay mismatch - all things that affect the signal slicing at the receiver where the signal gets converted back into 1's and 0's. Ever seen an eye-diagram?
For short cables and lower data rates those things are less of an issue, but once you start trying to send 4:4:4 video at 4K resolution over a 10m cable, then you really need to be careful with the cable and connector construction. That's going to be more expensive - not "unicorn poo" expensive, but definitely more than "slap two connectors on some wire, and hope" expensive.
I'm not advocating for $1000 magic pixie dust cables , but there is some validity in spending a bit more on higher quality in some situations ( long lengths and high bandwidths).
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Remember, HDMI is digital, not analog.
I do wish ppl would stop saying this. Once you have a signal in a cable you have to treat it as analog - with attenuation, noise, group delay, impedance mismatch, differential to common mode conversion, jitter, delay mismatch - all things that affect the signal slicing at the receiver where the signal gets converted back into 1's and 0's. Ever seen an eye-diagram?
For short cables and lower data rates those things are less of an issue, but once you start trying to send 4:4:4 video at 4K resolution over a 10m cable, then you really need to be careful with the cable and connector construction. That's going to be more expensive - not "unicorn poo" expensive, but definitely more than "slap two connectors on some wire, and hope" expensive.
I'm not advocating for $1000 magic pixie dust cables , but there is some validity in spending a bit more on higher quality in some situations ( long lengths and high bandwidths).
Your argument while being technically correct, completely misses the point though, and only brings additional confusion to the topic for non tech savvy person. The question is if HDMI cable affects image quality and it doesn't, because it's "digital". Any of that "analog stuff" only concerns you as an electronics engineer but does not matter to consumer. Regardless of what eye diagrams you get with particular cable, it either does work without any problems and image won't get any better than that, or it doesn't work, and consumer will have no or intermittent image at higher pixel clock with longer cables.
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This applies doubly when you're posting links to a sales website. Curiously, also in Leeds like you. ;)
Good catch. That's an interesting twist for a spammer to drop their link in the context of critical questions about the product. But I guess the whole link spamming scheme is not about enticing people to actually follow the link and buy stuff, but about improving the number of incoming links and hence Google's page rank. And to that end, the old adage applies: "There is no such thinkg as bad publicity." ::)
With the OP's other post taken care of by the mods, shouldn't this one also be removed?
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Regardless of what eye diagrams you get with particular cable, it either does work without any problems and image won't get any better than that, or it doesn't work, and consumer will have no or intermittent image at higher pixel clock with longer cables.
That's not quite correct either. Errors still happen at pixel level, where you end up with 'sparkles' or other effects on the screen. The error correction on HDMI video is not duplex (it uses Reed Solomon FEC, to detect the presence of errors), so the TV cannot ask for a frame to be re-transmitted, it can only detect an error has occurred at which point it is up to the TV manufacturer as to whether they try to interpolate pixel data or freeze that particular frame etc.
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Regardless of what eye diagrams you get with particular cable, it either does work without any problems and image won't get any better than that, or it doesn't work, and consumer will have no or intermittent image at higher pixel clock with longer cables.
That's not quite correct either. Errors still happen at pixel level, where you end up with 'sparkles' or other effects on the screen. The error correction on HDMI video is not duplex (it uses Reed Solomon FEC, to detect the presence of errors), so the TV cannot ask for a frame to be re-transmitted, it can only detect an error has occurred at which point it is up to the TV manufacturer as to whether they try to interpolate pixel data or freeze that particular frame etc.
When you get sparkles, usually they are quite noticeable and usually in addition you get screen blanking out once in a while. IMHO problematic margin between "works 100%" and "has issues which are really noticeable" is razor thin.
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This applies doubly when you're posting links to a sales website. Curiously, also in Leeds like you. ;)
Good catch. That's an interesting twist for a spammer to drop their link in the context of critical questions about the product. But I guess the whole link spamming scheme is not about enticing people to actually follow the link and buy stuff, but about improving the number of incoming links and hence Google's page rank. And to that end, the old adage applies: "There is no such thinkg as bad publicity." ::)
Thanks. :)
I guess it must be something like page ranking. If It was a serious attempt generate direct sales to forum members then it definitely seems to be backfiring rather badly! Yes, it is an interesting twist. I can only assume that it's spamming, he hasn't been back to deny it.
With the OP's other post taken care of by the mods, shouldn't this one also be removed?
Feel free to report it, my report was responsible of the other post being taken down I think. I assumed that the Mods they would track back to this one too (I linked it). I don't know if they were slow on the uptake, or giving him the benefit of the doubt. Maybe I should have been less subtle in my post. :-\
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This applies doubly when you're posting links to a sales website. Curiously, also in Leeds like you. ;)
How did you know he was in Leeds?
Edit: Ahh, his profile, doh!
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Your argument while being technically correct, completely misses the point though, and only brings additional confusion to the topic for non tech savvy person. The question is if HDMI cable affects image quality and it doesn't, because it's "digital". Any of that "analog stuff" only concerns you as an electronics engineer but does not matter to consumer. Regardless of what eye diagrams you get with particular cable, it either does work without any problems and image won't get any better than that, or it doesn't work, and consumer will have no or intermittent image at higher pixel clock with longer cables.
Its quite common when an HDMI cable isn't quite up to the job to get a near perfect picture, with just a small percentage of pixels twinkling away, due to bit errors. You can leave these things running all day, and they never lose sync, and blank the screen. They just twinkle a little in some parts of the screen. So, you can get quite a close emulation of some the failings of poor analogue communications. This was especially true with the first generation of HDMI 2.0 receiver chips, which really needed a really clean signal out of the cable for reliable decoding of 4k 60fps images. A year or two later they became a lot more tolerant, and you could get away with using much longer cables.
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Its quite common when an HDMI cable isn't quite up to the job to get a near perfect picture, with just a small percentage of pixels twinkling away, due to bit errors. You can leave these things running all day, and they never lose sync, and blank the screen. They just twinkle a little in some parts of the screen. So, you can get quite a close emulation of some the failings of poor analogue communications. This was especially true with the first generation of HDMI 2.0 receiver chips, which really needed a really clean signal out of the cable for reliable decoding of 4k 60fps images. A year or two later they became a lot more tolerant, and you could get away with using much longer cables.
I've seen it, on multiple occasions. One of my former jobs involved testing HDMI compliance and we had a lot of different TVs and cables and such. In the early days of HDMI it was common for 1080p-60 to have problems with cables that weren't quite up to snuff, and it was worse with unusually long cables. As someone else said, you don't need a fancy cable, you just need one that meets specs. The longer it is, the more critical the quality.
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I get tired of the entire "it's digital, doesn't matter".
I too don't suggest that the 1000 dollar HDMI cable will work better, but keep in mind that you are pushing tens of gbit/s down these cables for a few meters.
I've spent way to much time dealing with sub-par HDMI cables (and even more so with Displayport cables) not providing the full resolution, cutting out, etc. I only go for the known-name brands now. I rather pay 50 bucks for a cable and know it works than spend two hours and 3 trips to the store because the 20 buck one didn't.
If you want to be sure, most TVs will offer a 'troubleshooting' or 'service' mode that should probably give you things like bit-error-rates and faults/s or stuff, that should give you an idea.
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I rather pay 50 bucks for a cable and know it works than spend two hours and 3 trips to the store because the 20 buck one didn't.
50 buck cable is a snake oil. 20 buck cable is overpriced too, unless it's very long, but then you can already buy optical fiber at this price.
I've spent way to much time dealing with sub-par HDMI cables (and even more so with Displayport cables) not providing the full resolution, cutting out, etc. I only go for the known-name brands now.
Probably because what you purchased did cost less than $ 0.50 to produce, or you expected high resolution from a long cable. In any case I would not suggest to use non-optical HDMI cable longer than 3-4m unless you are not going to use high resolution.
I get tired of the entire "it's digital, doesn't matter".
"It's digital", does not mean that it will necessarily work fine. It means that if it works fine, it won't become any better no matter what. And all those promises abut better image quality and deeper colors are complete BS.
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I get tired of the entire "it's digital, doesn't matter".
Me too, it's a common display of ignorance. People seem to think that digital signals can magically any kind of signal degradation that would cause bit errors.
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I get tired of the entire "it's digital, doesn't matter".
Me too, it's a common display of ignorance. People seem to think that digital signals can magically any kind of signal degradation that would cause bit errors.
My opinion is that talking about analog stuff when HDMI cable in question is 1m long is nothing more than muddying the waters. Don't forget that question was if it improves image quality or not. Then "analog" guys came in.
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HDMI cables not performing was and is still an issue.
That is why the HDMI standardization board had some standards for cables introduced even at HDMI 1.4 (see below).
To be 100% sure that your 8k/60 picture will correctly be transmitted and received without data errors (pixel noise or no picture at all) you would like to purchase a cable that was tested
and approved to be a so called Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable. This should be on the cable it self not only on the package.
My opinion is that talking about analog stuff when HDMI cable in question is 1m long is nothing more than muddying the waters.
1m is indeed very short to get a lot of problems with 8k/60.
Still I have older standard HDMI cable of 2m that will not correctly transport even 4k/60. I had them replaced with Premium High Speed Cables and all was ok.
So I would not make that kind of hard statements, you will not say that for measuring 1GHz signals an 250MHz probe is enough now do you ?
The standardization and testing was not introduced for nothing, since the introduction of HDMI people have had issues with cables in combination with specific equipment, where also the brand of HDMI Tx chip and Rx chip played roles such that some brands of equipment would not work well together even with the right cables. The active HDMI cable with their own Rx and TX chips helped here.
Don't forget that question was if it improves image quality or not.
I agree that a HDMI cable will not improve image quality such that if there is no data loss (pixel noise or no picture) it will look different.
However there have been reported (rare) cases where there has been a visible difference (slight however), these were probably due to the hard shield connecting the two devices with longer distances influencing the grounding on the receivers end. Kind of ground loops but then between audio gnd and video gnd between multiple devices such as in extensive atmos home theater setups.
As of the HDMI 1.4 specification, the following cable types are defined for HDMI:
Standard HDMI Cable – up to 1080i and 720p
Standard HDMI Cable with Ethernet
High Speed HDMI Cable – 1080p, 4K 30 Hz, 3D and deep color
High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet
A new certification program was introduced in October 2015 to certify that cables work at the 18 Gbit/s maximum bandwidth of the HDMI 2.0 specification:
Premium High Speed HDMI Cable
Premium High Speed HDMI Cable with Ethernet
In conjunction with the HDMI 2.1 specification, a third category of cable was announced on January 4, 2017, called "48G".[81] Also known as Category 3 HDMI or "Ultra High Speed" HDMI, the cable is designed to support the 48 Gbit/s bandwidth of HDMI 2.1, supporting 4K, 5K, 8K and 10K at 120 Hz
Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable (48G Cable) – 4K, 5K, 8K and 10K at 120 Hz
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In conjunction with the HDMI 2.1 specification, a third category of cable was announced on January 4, 2017, called "48G".[81] Also known as Category 3 HDMI or "Ultra High Speed" HDMI, the cable is designed to support the 48 Gbit/s bandwidth of HDMI 2.1, supporting 4K, 5K, 8K and 10K at 120 Hz
Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable (48G Cable) – 4K, 5K, 8K and 10K at 120 Hz
If you need 8k @ 60Hz, sure buy certified cable to avoid possible problems. Not one full of snake oil, though. 8K certified cable from reputable manufacturer can be purchased for 4.5 times less. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-Support-Dynamic-Compatible-PlayStation-Black/dp/B08MZYQ43S/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3HM97B5MDPX6M&dchild=1&keywords=48gbps+hdmi&qid=1628159740&s=electronics&sprefix=48Gbps+%2Celectronics%2C178&sr=1-5 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-Support-Dynamic-Compatible-PlayStation-Black/dp/B08MZYQ43S/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3HM97B5MDPX6M&dchild=1&keywords=48gbps+hdmi&qid=1628159740&s=electronics&sprefix=48Gbps+%2Celectronics%2C178&sr=1-5)
6.5 times less for Amazom basics https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable-Black/dp/B08BS181P2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Ultra+High+Speed+hdmi&qid=1628160007&s=electronics&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable-Black/dp/B08BS181P2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Ultra+High+Speed+hdmi&qid=1628160007&s=electronics&sr=1-6)
And 10 times less from some lesser known suppliers.
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In conjunction with the HDMI 2.1 specification, a third category of cable was announced on January 4, 2017, called "48G".[81] Also known as Category 3 HDMI or "Ultra High Speed" HDMI, the cable is designed to support the 48 Gbit/s bandwidth of HDMI 2.1, supporting 4K, 5K, 8K and 10K at 120 Hz
Ultra High Speed HDMI Cable (48G Cable) – 4K, 5K, 8K and 10K at 120 Hz
If you need 8k @ 60Hz, sure buy certified cable to avoid possible problems. Not one full of snake oil, though. 8K certified cable from reputable manufacturer can be purchased for 4.5 times less. https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-Support-Dynamic-Compatible-PlayStation-Black/dp/B08MZYQ43S/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3HM97B5MDPX6M&dchild=1&keywords=48gbps+hdmi&qid=1628159740&s=electronics&sprefix=48Gbps+%2Celectronics%2C178&sr=1-5 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Anker-Support-Dynamic-Compatible-PlayStation-Black/dp/B08MZYQ43S/ref=sr_1_5?crid=3HM97B5MDPX6M&dchild=1&keywords=48gbps+hdmi&qid=1628159740&s=electronics&sprefix=48Gbps+%2Celectronics%2C178&sr=1-5)
6.5 times less for Amazom basics https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable-Black/dp/B08BS181P2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Ultra+High+Speed+hdmi&qid=1628160007&s=electronics&sr=1-6 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/AmazonBasics-High-Speed-HDMI-Cable-Black/dp/B08BS181P2/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Ultra+High+Speed+hdmi&qid=1628160007&s=electronics&sr=1-6)
And 10 times less from some lesser known suppliers.
I clearly havn't bought reputable certified HDMI cables in a long time, because last time I did, 50 bucks was simply what they would cost for a 3 meter long cable.
My opinion is that talking about analog stuff when HDMI cable in question is 1m long is nothing more than muddying the waters. Don't forget that question was if it improves image quality or not. Then "analog" guys came in.
Doesn't HDMI2 use a NRZ data signal at like 3 Gsymbol/second? That means your bit itself is at most 10 cm or so long in the cable. Even a 1 meter cable with thus have 10 (at least) bits 'inside' at any given time per conductor pair. If 'analog' things like reflections and impedance matching don't matter at that point, I don't know when you think it will? Not to mention a few dB attenuation wouldn't be surprising over those lengths at the upper frequencies, so you really need to clean up your eyes. Not to mention you need to do some equalization. The quality cannot get better than the source, ofcourse, and if you have 0 bit errors, it will be 'perfect'. But getting 0 bit errors is not as trivial as it might seem.
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My opinion is that talking about analog stuff when HDMI cable in question is 1m long is nothing more than muddying the waters. Don't forget that question was if it improves image quality or not. Then "analog" guys came in.
Doesn't HDMI2 use a NRZ data signal at like 3 Gsymbol/second? That means your bit itself is at most 10 cm or so long in the cable. Even a 1 meter cable with thus have 10 (at least) bits 'inside' at any given time per conductor pair. If 'analog' things like reflections and impedance matching don't matter at that point, I don't know when you think it will? Not to mention a few dB attenuation wouldn't be surprising over those lengths at the upper frequencies, so you really need to clean up your eyes. Not to mention you need to do some equalization. The quality cannot get better than the source, ofcourse, and if you have 0 bit errors, it will be 'perfect'. But getting 0 bit errors is not as trivial as it might seem.
What I say is that it muddies the water in a context of particular question asked by a non tech savvy person. If you want to discuss analog properties of the cable and signal propagation, you can create a new thread and do it there. The only thing that OP can get from the analog stuff discussion is confusion IMHO.
I clearly havn't bought reputable certified HDMI cables in a long time, because last time I did, 50 bucks was simply what they would cost for a 3 meter long cable.
Unless Monster cable snake oil was what is reputable, it's hard to believe. Good no-frills HDMI cables were never this expensive.
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Its quite common when an HDMI cable isn't quite up to the job to get a near perfect picture, with just a small percentage of pixels twinkling away, due to bit errors. You can leave these things running all day, and they never lose sync, and blank the screen. They just twinkle a little in some parts of the screen. So, you can get quite a close emulation of some the failings of poor analogue communications. This was especially true with the first generation of HDMI 2.0 receiver chips, which really needed a really clean signal out of the cable for reliable decoding of 4k 60fps images. A year or two later they became a lot more tolerant, and you could get away with using much longer cables.
Exactly, what often also seems to be ignored is that a substandard cable may well work fine on it's own, but because of cable construction may show these problems when in the presence of external perturbations. It may only take a faulty dimmer or SMPSU nearby to start having effects.
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The bottom line is really:
- Does the quality of an HDMI cable matter? Yes, definitely, and the demands on cable quality keep increasing as we move to higher resolutions. As well as issues of how lossy the actual cable is, some cheap cables have poorly made connectors, and you may see trouble even at low resolutions.
- Does it cost a lot to get a well made HDMI cable that gives solid results at the highest resolutions and frame rates? Not really.
- How can I tell what is a good buy? There you have a serious problem. If the cable is super expensive, forget it. Its a con. If its reasonably priced its really hard to know what you will get for your money. If only the customer reviews on Amazon could tell you something useful. What a world it would be, :)
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How can I tell what is a good buy? There you have a serious problem. If the cable is super expensive, forget it. Its a con. If its reasonably priced its really hard to know what you will get for your money. If only the customer reviews on Amazon could tell you something useful. What a world it would be, :)[/li][/list]
Only thing to rely on is a normal brand in combination with the standard named and labeled cables as I gave above.
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…including purchasing a premium high speed hdmi cable (alongside a new playstation and an 8K TV).
By new PlayStation I assume you mean a PS5. If so then you are wasting money buying another cable as the console comes with a HDMI 2.1 compatible cable in the box. Paying more money for a “better” cable won’t get you a better quality image.
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Doesn't HDMI2 use a NRZ data signal at like 3 Gsymbol/second?
Just for the record, it uses TMDS (Transition Minimised Differential Signalling). It was developed and patented by Silicon Image.
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Exactly, what often also seems to be ignored is that a substandard cable may well work fine on it's own, but because of cable construction may show these problems when in the presence of external perturbations. It may only take a faulty dimmer or SMPSU nearby to start having effects.
While not HDMI, I once used a very cheap flimsy RCA cable to carry the SPDIF signal from my DVD player to the receiver and it was mostly fine, but whenever the gas flame igniter ticked on my kitchen stove the audio would cut out for a few seconds. Replacing it with a slightly better quality cable completely resolved that.
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Exactly, what often also seems to be ignored is that a substandard cable may well work fine on it's own, but because of cable construction may show these problems when in the presence of external perturbations. It may only take a faulty dimmer or SMPSU nearby to start having effects.
While not HDMI, I once used a very cheap flimsy RCA cable to carry the SPDIF signal from my DVD player to the receiver and it was mostly fine, but whenever the gas flame igniter ticked on my kitchen stove the audio would cut out for a few seconds. Replacing it with a slightly better quality cable completely resolved that.
With video cables I've seen it with Chinese trash where outer shield was not connected. It was there but bastards were too lazy to connect it.
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Exactly, what often also seems to be ignored is that a substandard cable may well work fine on it's own, but because of cable construction may show these problems when in the presence of external perturbations. It may only take a faulty dimmer or SMPSU nearby to start having effects.
While not HDMI, I once used a very cheap flimsy RCA cable to carry the SPDIF signal from my DVD player to the receiver and it was mostly fine, but whenever the gas flame igniter ticked on my kitchen stove the audio would cut out for a few seconds. Replacing it with a slightly better quality cable completely resolved that.
With video cables I've seen it with Chinese trash where outer shield was not connected. It was there but bastards were too lazy to connect it.
Are you kidding me, I've seen Chinese RCA cables where the outer shield was only a single strand conductor, thinner than the multi-strand conductor in the core.
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As far as the quality of HDMI cables goes, this set of articles by a cable maker has, for years, been very balanced:
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/hdmi-cable-information.htm (https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/hdmi-cable-information.htm)
I hesitate to call them a boutique cable manufacturer, because their prices are eminently reasonable (especially for being largely made in USA, even the cable stock; to this day, the custom HDMI cable stock they have made by Belden is the only HDMI cable stock made in USA) and they don’t make any audiophoolery claims. I haven’t tried their products since I haven’t needed any cables long enough to push the limits of cheap cables.
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Exactly, what often also seems to be ignored is that a substandard cable may well work fine on it's own, but because of cable construction may show these problems when in the presence of external perturbations. It may only take a faulty dimmer or SMPSU nearby to start having effects.
While not HDMI, I once used a very cheap flimsy RCA cable to carry the SPDIF signal from my DVD player to the receiver and it was mostly fine, but whenever the gas flame igniter ticked on my kitchen stove the audio would cut out for a few seconds. Replacing it with a slightly better quality cable completely resolved that.
With video cables I've seen it with Chinese trash where outer shield was not connected. It was there but bastards were too lazy to connect it.
Are you kidding me, I've seen Chinese RCA cables where the outer shield was only a single strand conductor, thinner than the multi-strand conductor in the core.
That was a DP cable. Inner shields around differential pairs were connected. But outer shield was not, and thus shells of DP connectors were left unconnected. It worked fine at 2560@60Hz unless I plugged/unplugged mains plug somewhere nearby, at that moment image blanked out. Cable which was used seemed to be decent but the rest of construction wasn't. It was in early days on Displayport, around 2010-2011.
EDIT: just in case you think cable was faulty, it was not. I cut that cable open, and the shield was not connected by design.
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Full-size DisplayPort plugs are the worst. Not because there’s anything wrong with the connector design as such, but because every single implementation I have seen so far is crappy — they are all based around a thin PCB in a housing incapable of withstanding the forces imposed by the cable itself. One glance in the wrong direction and it’s overstressed and breaks.
It wouldn’t be difficult to do it a lot better (early Lightning connectors frequently failed the same way, but later ones are infinitely more robust), but I have yet to see anyone do it.
Mini DisplayPort plugs seem to be exceptionally robust.
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early Lightning connectors frequently failed the same way
Seriously , like in Nikola Tesla's lightning experiments, harvesting 5 GigaJoules :popcorn:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harvesting_lightning_energy
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Full-size DisplayPort plugs are the worst. Not because there’s anything wrong with the connector design as such, but because every single implementation I have seen so far is crappy — they are all based around a thin PCB in a housing incapable of withstanding the forces imposed by the cable itself. One glance in the wrong direction and it’s overstressed and breaks.
It wouldn’t be difficult to do it a lot better (early Lightning connectors frequently failed the same way, but later ones are infinitely more robust), but I have yet to see anyone do it.
Mini DisplayPort plugs seem to be exceptionally robust.
I agree with that, although the mini-DP has the downside, compared to the full sized plug, of not having a latch. Perhaps that is nit picking, as most miniDP plugs sit quite securely in the socket, and don't pull out too easily like a lot of HDMI ones.
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My experience agrees with yours: despite the lack of a latch, the retention of mini-DP is excellent. Way better than USB, FireWire, or HDMI. Apple did a great job with that connector design.1. 2.
1. For those who don’t know, the mini-DP connector was originally a proprietary design by Apple. But it was very quickly adopted into the official DisplayPort standard.
2. With the Nintendo Game Boy link cable being the original latchless, pinless (flat contacts on both sides) connector.3. Apple used that style in most of its connector designs (FireWire, Dock connector, lightning, mini-DP), as do all USB connectors.
3. There were earlier pinless connectors, like the Centronics connectors used for parallel printers and GPIB, but they use latches.
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Technically the Centronics and GPIB connectors don't really need the latches, although the cables, especially of the day tended to be very heavy and stiff. If you put a gigantic thick heavy cable on a USB, Firewire or Displayport connector it would also need latches to stay in reliably.
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I don’t entirely agree. The Centronics/GPIB (and SCSI-1, come to think of it!) connectors have plenty of friction, but no detents. But for sure, their garden hose cables need a latch. USB has no detents, and FireWire has them but they’re not always secure. Mini-DP and Lightning (and USB-C, which got a lot of input from Apple) have very clear detents. Mini-DP’s retention detents are more than sufficient to keep them in with the fairly thick cables. FireWire kinda depended: I’ve seen them be loose, but also seen them be nice and secure. But when you say “if you put a thick cable on a FireWire connector”: Most FireWire cables were quite thick by today’s standards. Usually a bit thicker than an HDMI or DP cable, for FireWire with power. I used to use FireWire 400 extensively and never had trouble with plugs coming out. (FireWire 800 on the other hand, is just weird. No detents, no retention. Enough friction to stay in, but absolutely no tactile feel. Never liked them.)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRLfOathIo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRLfOathIo)
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I don’t entirely agree. The Centronics/GPIB (and SCSI-1, come to think of it!) connectors have plenty of friction, but no detents. But for sure, their garden hose cables need a latch. USB has no detents, and FireWire has them but they’re not always secure. Mini-DP and Lightning (and USB-C, which got a lot of input from Apple) have very clear detents. Mini-DP’s retention detents are more than sufficient to keep them in with the fairly thick cables. FireWire kinda depended: I’ve seen them be loose, but also seen them be nice and secure. But when you say “if you put a thick cable on a FireWire connector”: Most FireWire cables were quite thick by today’s standards. Usually a bit thicker than an HDMI or DP cable, for FireWire with power. I used to use FireWire 400 extensively and never had trouble with plugs coming out. (FireWire 800 on the other hand, is just weird. No detents, no retention. Enough friction to stay in, but absolutely no tactile feel. Never liked them.)
The Dell Xeon box they gave me at work has a video card with four mini-DP jacks. It was supplied with four mini-DP-to-DP dongles, each of which has a little locking thingie that goes into a small hole in the bracket right below the jack. (I'd take a picture and post it but the machine is at the office and it's the weekend.)
The standard Apple mini-DP to DVI adapter dongles (of which we seem to have a ton around here ...) work fine.
Speaking of FireWire, I still use my MOTU 828 mk2 FireWire multichannel audio interface on my 2020 10-core i9 iMac. Yeah, it's got the silly TB3-to-TB2 adapter plugged into the TB2-to-FW800 adapter, and a FW cable with 800 on the computer side and 400 on the MOTU side connects it all, but ... it works. And MOTU, to their great credit, still supports an ancient product.
(I ended up getting a CalDigit Element Hub (https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/) which takes TB3 or TB4 in and gives three TB4 downstream ports plus four of whatever they call the 10 Gb/s USB Type A ports these days. The TB3-TB2-FW dongle plugs into one of the TB ports.)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRLfOathIo (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvRLfOathIo)
A caption telling us what this guy wants us to know would be swell.
Especially since he's using a child's MyFirstOscilloscope with 50 MHz analog bandwidth to look at HDMI signals.
Edit: OK, I watched the video, and to quote the Last Jedi, everything he says in that video is wrong. He hand-waves away the "artifacts" in the display because he doesn't understand that his toy doesn't have the bandwidth -- which is an analog metric! -- to pass the fast transitions. So instead we see blips and dips.
And the difference between a cable which reliably shows your content vs one that doesn't is, apart from shitty connectors, is the cable bandwidth. Which is ... yep, analog.
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I found this:
"HDMI 2.0 is certified to have a bandwidth of 18 Gigabits per second which supports 4K resolution at 60 FPS (frames per second)."
"for 28- and 32-Gbps signals this would mean that you would need at least 70 GHz of bandwidth."
I think a 50MHz scope can analyze a 4K HDMI cable and I also agree that the digital signal is more "noise-proof" than an analog signal.
Your pejorative adjectives about his instruments are totally unnecessary, I recommend you to be polite, respect the rules, and discuss only technical details.
Am I missing something? You're trying to measure Gbps with a 50MHz scope? Offhand it seems you're mixing GHz and MHz.
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You are right, GHz, thanks.