Help with university (Choosing course and path)

[XDroidie626]

Hello Community!! (First post so sorry if this is in the wrong section)
I am new to the field of electronics, I have experience with electronics (Mainly from computers) and I am thinking of taking my studies to university via an engineering degree.
I currently study Computer Sciences at the Open Uni, I thought it would help to get a job with hardware design and other development but it turns out Engineering is the best way, I am only in my first subject so I am not loosing out on much.
Okay so when I asked the university about the courses, I said I have an interest in both mechanics and electrical (Electrical most, I find mechanics intresting in terms of cars mostly, although I find engines interesting all together) and that I wished to follow the electrical field.
Now while I wanted to originally do hardware design to apply to computers, I recently started to play with my own electronics, only simple circuits and stuff (Followed some information from Dummies) and I found that I ideally would like to repair/build electronic systems, I wouldn't mind been able to apply my passion for cars and electronics together but one step at a time.
So I was offered the option of these two courses.
http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/qualifications/q65 <- Standard Beng.
http://www.open.ac.uk/courses/qualifications/m04 <- Beng + Masters included.
If I can I will go for the included masters, they suggested I try their quiz and see what level I am at.
but my problem is, the routes they provide to not clearly explain what you may do and what is best for your career wants, as said I wish to repair and build systems.
I was thinking modelling and application, and if you can switch maybe do a mechanics and materials also (If anyone here studied this at OU can you shine some light here?).
What would you suggest for someone who is a noob with electronics education?

Many Thanks!

[EEVblog]

Unless you have a very specific career branch in mind (say IC design), then forget about worrying about which EE course to do, any EE degree will do.
*insert Shia LaBeouf's Just Do It meme here*
You'll naturally get into whatever area interests you, likely outside of your uni course. or you might find something else that interests you during the course.

[XDroidie626]

Would you recommend doing the masters intergrated course over the standard beng also?

[tggzzz]

I don't know whether it is still the case, but HR-droids used to be "sniffy" about OU degrees.

Evaluate each syllabus against your personal interests and where you think you might want to go in the first few years of your career.

Avoid overly specific degrees which will prematurely "close doors", e.g. choosing telecommunications engineering before starting the course. A range of topics will enable you to develop understanding of what really does/doesn't interest you.

At this stage you need a good grounding in a wide range of fundamental theory that will be difficult to get and master later on. That will stand you in good stead for the whole of your career, whereas specific technologies will change every few years. You can demonstrate depth and understanding by applying that theory to your own practical projects. Employers love that, since it shows initiative, determination, learning, and an interest in the subject that they infer you will apply when working for them.

Avoid overly general degrees, since you need to be able to demonstrate that you are capable of understanding a subject in depth. "30000ft understanding" is easy, but sometimes you'll be in the trenches - particularly at the beginning of a career.

Sounds like you have made a good start thinking about things. Good luck.

[EEVblog]

Would you recommend doing the masters intergrated course over the standard beng also?

If you have the time (and money?), yes, it won't hurt you.

[EEVblog]

Avoid overly general degrees, since you need to be able to demonstrate that you are capable of understanding a subject in depth.

Not here in Australia. You either have an EE degree or you don't, in the vast majority of cases it's as simple as that.

[XDroidie626]

Would you recommend doing the masters intergrated course over the standard beng also?

If you have the time (and money?), yes, it won't hurt you.

We have student support here in the UK, the government pay for it then we pay it back when we earn over 21k p/a

[XDroidie626]

I don't know whether it is still the case, but HR-droids used to be "sniffy" about OU degrees.

Evaluate each syllabus against your personal interests and where you think you might want to go in the first few years of your career.

Avoid overly specific degrees which will prematurely "close doors", e.g. choosing telecommunications engineering before starting the course. A range of topics will enable you to develop understanding of what really does/doesn't interest you.

At this stage you need a good grounding in a wide range of fundamental theory that will be difficult to get and master later on. That will stand you in good stead for the whole of your career, whereas specific technologies will change every few years. You can demonstrate depth and understanding by applying that theory to your own practical projects. Employers love that, since it shows initiative, determination, learning, and an interest in the subject that they infer you will apply when working for them.

Avoid overly general degrees, since you need to be able to demonstrate that you are capable of understanding a subject in depth. "30000ft understanding" is easy, but sometimes you'll be in the trenches - particularly at the beginning of a career.

Sounds like you have made a good start thinking about things. Good luck.

Well I am referencing Electronics for dummies (For project based stuff mostly) and I am reading parts of Art of Electronics (When I have time and can actually be bothered) so I feel a theory side would help me.

[Bob F.]

Is there any particular reason to choose the OU?  Distance learning, especially at this level, is not an easy path.  If it is for future job prospects then a more traditional route may be preferable.  I do not know where you are located, but bricks and mortar Unis sometimes have evening classes leading to Bachelor degrees so that may be an alternative learning method if a solid 3-year on campus course is not an option for you.

There is scant detail in the course links but it does not seem to me that you will learn much electronics in these courses.  They appear to be general engineering courses.  They will teach engineering mathematics and materials science, modelling etc , and no doubt some electrical (rather than electronic) engineering aspects which is fine if that is what you are after. 

My own *very* limited experience of OU courses is that they tend to lack on the practical side - not least because of the lack of laboratory access.  One course I started (admittedly many years ago) was ostensibly on Computer Systems Design but in practice was more of a history lesson with no practical content whatsoever - I sent the coursework back, and to be fair, they refunded my fees with no quibble.

[Edit: "(When I have time and can actually be bothered) " does not bode well for an OU course!  ]

Good luck, Bob.

[XDroidie626]

Is there any particular reason to choose the OU?  Distance learning, especially at this level, is not an easy path.  If it is for future job prospects then a more traditional route may be preferable.  I do not know where you are located, but bricks and mortar Unis sometimes have evening classes leading to Bachelor degrees so that may be an alternative learning method if a solid 3-year on campus course is not an option for you.

There is scant detail in the course links but it does not seem to me that you will learn much electronics in these courses.  They appear to be general engineering courses.  They will teach engineering mathematics and materials science, modelling etc , and no doubt some electrical (rather than electronic) engineering aspects which is fine if that is what you are after. 

My own *very* limited experience of OU courses is that they tend to lack on the practical side - not least because of the lack of laboratory access.  One course I started (admittedly many years ago) was ostensibly on Computer Systems Design but in practice was more of a history lesson with no practical content whatsoever - I sent the coursework back, and to be fair, they refunded my fees with no quibble.

[Edit: "(When I have time and can actually be bothered) " does not bode well for an OU course!  ]

Good luck, Bob.

I chose the OU so I can stay working while doing studies, plus my background originally is in computing, my college related stuff was all IT.
I am also already with the OU on the Q62 course (IT).
They do have classes every 6 weeks or so and I have to attend week sessions down in bath for the practical side of stuff, but really I want the theory from them and ill try get a course for practical if they don't do enough, I have always learned practical stuff on my own faster than someone telling me, I learned about computers in the same fashion.
They do a lot of practical in IT now, or seem to, every assignment in CS has you building programs, while simple and pointless show someone new how to program (To a degree I find pointless as its all scratch based)
Also the when I have the time thing is about that book, I find it a lot to take in, normally I do not have any issues with researching for hours on end, just that book I cant explain why
Also about the general course, they said to me that eventually via the M04 course you get your chosen topic (Electronics to me of course) but I would also like a little bit of general engineering stuff before I dive in, always helps to understand different things

[Bob F.]

Sounds like they have moved on and teamed up with bricks and mortal colleges now. Good stuff!  That personal contact was missing back in the day and is so important.  I guess you just need to make sure they have the kind of electronics modules you will be interested in when you get to them.  One good thing about the OU is that you can mix and match like that and get a wider base of knowledge which is not always the case in a British Uni.

Good luck, Bob.

[AQUAMAN]

How old are you?

In my opinion I would say don't go to university - it is a total utter waste of time (and money) and has been dumbed down massively. It is the biggest con going.

You are better off studying yourself.

I would say if you do go, you absolutely have to go to one with good research centres and volunteer to do projects for them. This is far more important that the degree.
The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1. The standard of the other students was often absolutely horrific. It was basically an extension of school, except the standard was worse.

I don't know about the Open University.

I don't think there is much opportunity to get experience in hardware design for computer ICs in the UK. The best bet would be ARM and there are a few small companies.
I would not close my options like that. Most of the jobs end up being outsourced to Asia anyway.
If you want to work with hardware side of semiconductors there is a lot more than just microprocessors.
In Europe, power semiconductors is easier to get a job in if you speak German, but English is fine usually
Then what about semiconductors for photovoltaics? Also is a big area. For example Loughborough do a lot of research on new PV semiconductors. It is very interesting.
There is also a lot more than just designing the chips: thermal management and reliability are massive research areas and probably more interesting.

If I was you I would really try to get an Apprenticeship at Siemens or something, and then do a PhD after a few years.

Generally you have no idea what is going to happen. But if you do go to university you should do some research projects there - if it is a good research centre then the research will be relevant and you will probably find it interesting no matter what specific subject it is in. If you don't do this and in anyway expected your degree to be more than just paying 30k to buy a bit of paper, I think you will come to the end and realise what a waste of time and money it was. I certainly did.

I would also say just aim to work in the hardware side of semiconductors - but don't narrow it down more than that. You could end up doing reliability, packaging, physics type research or anything - not just design. Just take any job experience to do with it.

[XDroidie626]

I'm 22 at the moment, as said I've done it so far
Anyways I'm currently still in the early stages of learning how to build electrics, I'm thinking of trying for a course in electronics to get a certification, at my age your normally too old for apprenticeships
I am also currently studying from books although as with anyone new to any subject its finding the right books to begin with, while I think dummies books are good they seem to be a bit dumb and not enough theory in them, I'll use make electronic book to learn how to actually make electronics
Any more advice you could give?
Also most students in UK do not end up paying the cash required for uni back

[CatalinaWOW]

Reread what tggzzz said.  He is right.  But more importantly, none of us can give you an answer for this.  We can speak to the value of a degree, and the value of specific kinds of courses, but the most important things depend on you personally.  Any degree is an exercise in deferred gratification.  It is several years of hard work with the payoff years or decades away.  It can be easier if you are fascinated by the coursework at hand.  So listen to your heart.  Go in a direction that pleases you.  Even then you will have to compromise with the system and your head as you take necessary but unpleasing courses that are either solid groundwork for later studies, groundwork for your eventual career, or merely required by the institution.

I would also spend some time thinking about your choice of OU.  Some employers are cautious about online degrees, and many may not value them as highly as degrees from traditional universities with a reputation in your field of study.  OU may well be the right choice for you, but if you have any thoughts about specific employers or fields of employment be sure that OU is accepted by them.

[DJohn]

I don't know whether it is still the case, but HR-droids used to be "sniffy" about OU degrees.

I've heard the opposite, so it probably differs from place to place.  The initiative and self-motivation required to get through a distance degree while working full time can be seen as a significant plus.  Or you might be unlucky and run into the person who thinks they hand out degrees for watching the TV (having the BBC broadcast their video material (a very small component of any course) in the post-pub hours has left some parts of the public with a rather skewed view of what's involved in OU study).

The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1

There is no way a university that does this will get accreditation.  You have to make a reasonable effort just to pass.

You are better off studying yourself.

That depends on the individual.  I benefited from having an externally-imposed structure.  It also forced me to study things that I wouldn't have chosen myself, but in hindsight I'm glad I did.  There are things you don't know that you want/need to know until you know them.

The only concern I'd have with the OU's Engineering degrees is that they don't seem to offer any electronics (unless they've got something hidden where I can't find it).  It depends on what you want to get out of it - you'll certainly learn some valuable things, and might be able to fill in the electronic side yourself.

[tggzzz]

I don't know whether it is still the case, but HR-droids used to be "sniffy" about OU degrees.

I've heard the opposite, so it probably differs from place to place.  The initiative and self-motivation required to get through a distance degree while working full time can be seen as a significant plus.

I agree with all that, but I'm not the HR-droid that might or might not be a problem.

There are two major problems with HR-droids. Firstly they have to be seen to be doing something, and filtering CVs fits that. Second, a principal concern is to armour-plate their back against failure; if they "let in" somebody that fails and has to be sacked, it is a big black mark against them. OTOH, if they have ticked all the standard boxes, then they have cannot have failed - clearly the interviewers were at fault.

Yup, it sucks.

The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1

There is no way a university that does this will get accreditation.  You have to make a reasonable effort just to pass.

In the UK I agree.

However even 30 years ago some polytechnics' output was poor. (And some very good, of course). It is unwise to generalise solely on the basis of institution, but some institutions have better/worse reputations. Any decent HR-droid will be aware of the differences, and and decent interviewer will be able to spot the better/worse candidates.

You are better off studying yourself.

That depends on the individual.  I benefited from having an externally-imposed structure.  It also forced me to study things that I wouldn't have chosen myself, but in hindsight I'm glad I did.  There are things you don't know that you want/need to know until you know them.

The only concern I'd have with the OU's Engineering degrees is that they don't seem to offer any electronics (unless they've got something hidden where I can't find it).  It depends on what you want to get out of it - you'll certainly learn some valuable things, and might be able to fill in the electronic side yourself.

A major point in favour of conventional universities is that soaking up the academic atmosphere and ethos should be valuable in itself. And that's true whether or not you go on to be deeply academic. But that isn't possible for everyone, and doesn't suit everyone, in which case OU distance learning might be suitable.

Having said that, my daughter has just completed her degree at a Russell Group Uni, and I was shocked to hear of lectures with 800 people in the audience, and I'm unconvinced of the "face time" they got with their academic staff.

[Rick Law]

Would you recommend doing the masters intergrated course over the standard beng also?

If you have the time (and money?), yes, it won't hurt you.

I must say I have a provisional disagreement with "it won't hurt you."  I think it depends on your University's policies.  I have seen a mix of 4.5, 5, 5.5 year MS or BS+MS policies.  (In the USA, BS is typically 4 years)

A lot can change in 5 years: got recruited for a dream job, got married, broke your leg, world war III, whatever - a lot can change.  The safe bet is, get what you can along the way.  If the school has a "get out" provision and you can abandon your MS at year 4.1 and just take the BS degree and leave, then good.  If it doesn't have some kind of "get out" policy and you ended up having no degree at all after 4 years, that is not fun.

Note also, some may be by the student's own action however unwittingly - such as, the school allows a "get the BS after 4yr and out" but you were waiting to do that required but deadly boring course till last...

Besides, I think achieving step 1 is a good encouragement and excellent morale booster for step 2.

[f5r5e5d]

...and I found that I ideally would like to repair/build electronic systems

there's considerable step between Technician and Engineer, some Techs do make the transition but most have to go back to school for Calculus/DiffyQ to fully get Linear Systems, Signals and Systems, Control Theory which would be considered the basis of a Analog EE degree
Even CompSci degrees are likely to do Calculus, Linear Algebra and possibly other Modern Algebra type math at a level that few I have heard of mastering on their own

and the better programs have been thought out and do have necessary sequences of prereqs and successor courses - you may still not have a clue why they thought some material was important, required for the degree for years after leaving Uni, practicing as an engineer - some I was learning to appreciate even a decade afterwards

[IanB]

In my opinion I would say don't go to university - it is a total utter waste of time (and money) and has been dumbed down massively. It is the biggest con going.

You are better off studying yourself.

The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1. The standard of the other students was often absolutely horrific. It was basically an extension of school, except the standard was worse.

It would be very unfortunate if people read that and thought it was true in general. There may be some poor institutions, but I would not think that assessment is true of an accredited engineering course at a top ranked university.

Where I studied we lost 30% of the class at the end of the first year as not meeting the required standard for continuing to the second year. There is no way that just turning up was sufficient to stay the course. The workload was way harder than school.

[tggzzz]

In my opinion I would say don't go to university - it is a total utter waste of time (and money) and has been dumbed down massively. It is the biggest con going.

You are better off studying yourself.

The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1. The standard of the other students was often absolutely horrific. It was basically an extension of school, except the standard was worse.

It would be very unfortunate if people read that and thought it was true in general. There may be some poor institutions, but I would not think that assessment is true of an accredited engineering course at a top ranked university.

Where I studied we lost 30% of the class at the end of the first year as not meeting the required standard for continuing to the second year. There is no way that just turning up was sufficient to stay the course. The workload was way harder than school.

Yes indeed. It is difficult to distinguish aquaman's attitude from someone that has a very large chip on their shoulder.

[AQUAMAN]

In my opinion I would say don't go to university - it is a total utter waste of time (and money) and has been dumbed down massively. It is the biggest con going.

You are better off studying yourself.

The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1. The standard of the other students was often absolutely horrific. It was basically an extension of school, except the standard was worse.

It would be very unfortunate if people read that and thought it was true in general. There may be some poor institutions, but I would not think that assessment is true of an accredited engineering course at a top ranked university.

Where I studied we lost 30% of the class at the end of the first year as not meeting the required standard for continuing to the second year. There is no way that just turning up was sufficient to stay the course. The workload was way harder than school.

Yes indeed. It is difficult to distinguish aquaman's attitude from someone that has a very large chip on their shoulder.

I went to a 'good' university in the UK and did Electrical Engineering which was properly accredited. I got a 1st in it but I don't think I should have.

I still think it was a waste of time and money and that I should never have gone.
And I think to myself - if I went to a 'good' accredited course, god knows what it must be like in other universities.

Part of it is my fault - in fact almost all of the lecturers there were absolutely fantastic and it had the best library I have ever seen. Had I known what I know now I would have made much more of it (like doing research projects from the first year etc).
Unfortunately however, the standard of the course WAS a total joke and a huge number of the students (most of them) did not have basic skills or willingness to learn.
In my opinion, all you had to do to get a 2.1 was turn up. I have absolutely no idea how it was possible to fail it.

A lot of older people are stuck in the past when it comes to university. In the UK now, most of the students are there to buy the bit of paper at the end that lets them apply to some 'graduate' job - the actual learning in the degree is minimal or non-existent. Also, the sheer number of people that go to university means that the courses ARE being dumbed down.
They are there to buy that bit of paper, and if they don't get it, the university rating goes down.
I had a lecturer admit to me that one of his modules was removed because it was 'too difficult', after I complained about the course.

Like I said, it was partly my fault that I didn't get anything out of university, but when you are 18 and surrounded in that environment it is very difficult. I always knew deep down that what I was doing wasn't what university was supposed to be.
Nevertheless, even if I had made the most of it and managed to take part in research projects throughout (probably you won't be allowed to do proper research until the final years), it still wouldn't have been worth the money and debt.

[AQUAMAN]

A major point in favour of conventional universities is that soaking up the academic atmosphere and ethos should be valuable in itself. And that's true whether or not you go on to be deeply academic. But that isn't possible for everyone, and doesn't suit everyone, in which case OU distance learning might be suitable.

Having said that, my daughter has just completed her degree at a Russell Group Uni, and I was shocked to hear of lectures with 800 people in the audience, and I'm unconvinced of the "face time" they got with their academic staff.

This is precisely my point. You are stuck in the past. This DOES NOT exist any longer in the modern university.

Perhaps it might in a few select courses in Oxbridge, but in general even if you do Engineering at an accredited Russell Group university, you will not experience any kind of atmosphere you are thinking off.

It is just an extension of school.

[tggzzz]

In my opinion I would say don't go to university - it is a total utter waste of time (and money) and has been dumbed down massively. It is the biggest con going.

You are better off studying yourself.

The degree itself is a total joke - just turning up gets you a 2.1. The standard of the other students was often absolutely horrific. It was basically an extension of school, except the standard was worse.

It would be very unfortunate if people read that and thought it was true in general. There may be some poor institutions, but I would not think that assessment is true of an accredited engineering course at a top ranked university.

Where I studied we lost 30% of the class at the end of the first year as not meeting the required standard for continuing to the second year. There is no way that just turning up was sufficient to stay the course. The workload was way harder than school.

Yes indeed. It is difficult to distinguish aquaman's attitude from someone that has a very large chip on their shoulder.

Part of it is my fault - in fact almost all of the lecturers there were absolutely fantastic and it had the best library I have ever seen. Had I known what I know now I would have made much more of it (like doing research projects from the first year etc).

I'm not sure what "research" projects an undergrad would do. N.B. second and final year projects != research.

OTOH I had been doing my own projects for a decade before university, and that was well looked upon by potential employers.
 

Unfortunately however, the standard of the course WAS a total joke and a huge number of the students (most of them) did not have basic skills or willingness to learn.
In my opinion, all you had to do to get a 2.1 was turn up. I have absolutely no idea how it was possible to fail it.

Remarkable and worrying. In my course, IIRC ~10% were kicked out at the end of the first year and another 10% at the end of the second year.

A lot of older people are stuck in the past when it comes to university. In the UK now, most of the students are there to buy the bit of paper at the end that lets them apply to some 'graduate' job - the actual learning in the degree is minimal or non-existent. Also, the sheer number of people that go to university means that the courses ARE being dumbed down.
They are there to buy that bit of paper, and if they don't get it, the university rating goes down.
I had a lecturer admit to me that one of his modules was removed because it was 'too difficult', after I complained about the course.

We showed our 2nd year maths course to a contemporary maths student. He was horrified at the amount we had to do compared to his second year course. The concept of complaining didn't even cross our minds. OTOH we did complain about an incomprehensible set of E&M lectures and, after sitting in on one lecture, one of "our" professors agreed.

Like I said, it was partly my fault that I didn't get anything out of university, but when you are 18 and surrounded in that environment it is very difficult. I always knew deep down that what I was doing wasn't what university was supposed to be.

That is a mature, selfless evaluation which does you credit.

Nonetheless it doesn't apply to everyone - any more than everyone should go to university.

I've always been disgusted that the polytechnics rebranded themselves as unis - each had distinct characteristics and advantages.

Nevertheless, even if I had made the most of it and managed to take part in research projects throughout (probably you won't be allowed to do proper research until the final years), it still wouldn't have been worth the money and debt.

[gildasd]

Just a general remark:
Become an engineer, it's a title that you will keep forever.
You might study IT but find a passion for condensator chemistry...
Most people will only consider your title, your research and "show and tell" not what option spread you took in first year (and if they do, avoid that company).

[Landrew2390]

I'm not familiar with the education format in the United Kingdom, but I have to agree with Gildasd.  Work to earn the title of Engineer.  HR normally don't understand the qualifications for a field, but they do recognize titles.  I applied for a job and didn't get to interview because I didn't have the required 10 years experience working with the Windows 7 operating system.  If I'd applied with a title attached to my name, I would probably have a job there.

One other thing that I've picked up on during 6 years of college.  Having a thorough knowledge of a field is good, but take every single elective you can from other subjects.  It will be harder, but it will help you branch out if you ever have to change fields.  I started in Forestry and ended up working on computers.  6 years is a long time and you never know where you're going to end up.  Do your best to cover your bases and enjoy the ride.