Hot air station + soldering station 8586D any good?

[Vancata]

Hey folks, any opinion for this model of combined 2in1 soldering and hot air station? I'm looking for hot air station because i'm moving on smd from true-hole and i was thinking if i can hit 2 rabbits with one bullet on decent price.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/171017965036?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I was thinking to save some money on the soldering iron so is this a good idea or i should go for something else? I'm really on tight budget here since i'm student and it's just for my hobbies.

Thanks!

[granz]

I have an 8586D.  The hot air side is great, I highly recommend it.  The soldering side is just OK.  It takes a while to heat up, and it's only bang-bang control (not PID), and has no digital temperature readout.  I got it because it was almost the same price as the hot-air only version, and it seemed useful as a portable all-in-one unit.  It's definitely not Hakko quality, but it will get you by for a while if you are tight on cash.  The included tips will last for a while.  You can always pick up a better iron when you have a bit more money--the iron unplugs from the unit so it doesn't really take up any extra space when you get something better later on (you can still use the hot-air side).

Hope that helps!

[bronson]

How do you know it's bang-bang?  Press against a thermocouple and look for a sawtooth temp profile?  Or something less elegant like scoping the heater or reading a schematic?

Just curious.  I'd like to put the iron on my X-tronic 5040 to the test.

[amyk]

The soldering side is just OK.  It takes a while to heat up, and it's only bang-bang control (not PID)

The Hakkos do this too; the light turns on while the element is being powered, and once it gets to the setpoint it turns off. The element cools and it turns on again.

[zapta]

I got recently a similar one with only the hot air part. Very good product, compact, quiet, good price and works as advertised.  I used it to reflow a few SMD boards. However, when I opened it I did not like at all the ground path from the plug to the hand piece metal sleeve. It goes through painted metals, tiny terminal and a thin grounding wire. I returned it to Amazon due to safety concerns and got from ebay a used UL listed Hakko I can trust.

BTW, the CE labels that come on some of those cheap Chinese units are meaningless.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-Roll-of-500-1-2-inch-Round-CE-Regulated-D-O-T-Labels-/190417532417?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2c55c4f601

[granz]

How do you know it's bang-bang?  Press against a thermocouple and look for a sawtooth temp profile?  Or something less elegant like scoping the heater or reading a schematic?

Just curious.  I'd like to put the iron on my X-tronic 5040 to the test.

Sure, you could try that--look for a ramp.  Perhaps I spoke too soon, but it's really just a guess based on the time it takes to heat up (ie long), and the long heating/cooling cycle time when it's up to temperature.  I never did any more scientific tests.  There are other factors, so you wouldn't see an perfect ramp, but you should get some idea.  If you do the tests you should post your graphs!

[granz]

The soldering side is just OK.  It takes a while to heat up, and it's only bang-bang control (not PID)

The Hakkos do this too; the light turns on while the element is being powered, and once it gets to the setpoint it turns off. The element cools and it turns on again.

Well sure, they all do that based on the control-loop update rate.  It looks like PID control to me based on the heating graph:

http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fx951.html

Or at least better than plain on-off (bang-bang) control.  Which Hakko are you referring to BTW?

[michaelym]

I was very disappointed by the soldering side. If I knew how bad it is, I would have bought the hot air alone.

[Vancata]

Seems i will get only the hot air stations.
Thanks for the info folks!

[amyk]

The soldering side is just OK.  It takes a while to heat up, and it's only bang-bang control (not PID)

The Hakkos do this too; the light turns on while the element is being powered, and once it gets to the setpoint it turns off. The element cools and it turns on again.

Well sure, they all do that based on the control-loop update rate.  It looks like PID control to me based on the heating graph:

http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fx951.html

Or at least better than plain on-off (bang-bang) control.  Which Hakko are you referring to BTW?

The 936 and its clones, primarily.

Any sign of PID in these? I'm not too familiar with analogue stuff but I see a triac and some opamps...
http://www.scipia.com/common_img/solderingstation/lm358_simple.png (clone)
http://dalincom.ru/datasheet/HAKKO_936_schematic.pdf (genuine)

[granz]

The soldering side is just OK.  It takes a while to heat up, and it's only bang-bang control (not PID)

The Hakkos do this too; the light turns on while the element is being powered, and once it gets to the setpoint it turns off. The element cools and it turns on again.

Well sure, they all do that based on the control-loop update rate.  It looks like PID control to me based on the heating graph:

http://www.hakko.com/english/products/hakko_fx951.html

Or at least better than plain on-off (bang-bang) control.  Which Hakko are you referring to BTW?

The 936 and its clones, primarily.

Any sign of PID in these? I'm not too familiar with analogue stuff but I see a triac and some opamps...
http://www.scipia.com/common_img/solderingstation/lm358_simple.png (clone)
http://dalincom.ru/datasheet/HAKKO_936_schematic.pdf (genuine)

Looks like phase-angle proportional (P) control to me.  The power to the heater (50/60 Hz AC) would be controlled by the temperature difference between the set and the measured temperature.  It would be interesting if someone could check with a scope on one of these.

I am now curious about the 8586D in question so I may pop it open and check it out.  Based on my minimal time using it (I really only use the hot-air side) I don't believe it does anything other than on/off control (no phase angle control).

The newer digital Hakkos would do most of this in firmware I imagine, so it would be pretty simple to add the I and D terms to get a faster heating curve.

Interesting discussion BTW 

[zapta]

The newer digital Hakkos would do most of this in firmware I imagine, so it would be pretty simple to add the I and D terms to get a faster heating curve.

My experience with a digital hot air station is that it is less user friendly than an analog one (e.g. Hakko 850). For example when switching from soaking heating temperature, you need to hold the hand piece with one hand and work the up button with the other. With analog, it is a simple fraction of a pot turn.

(having digital memory settings will solve this problem).

[Nathan]

Depending how much you want to spend, go to www.Hybecusa.com
They have a great selection.