Author Topic: Houston.. I got problem!  (Read 5534 times)

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Offline Garrinn

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2016, 06:15:50 pm »
Can you check the diode marked #7 in your circuit? This could be bad. Check all of the diodes at bottom of your drawing to see if they are shorted or closed.

PEACE===>T
Thanks.

I don't know how easy it is.. will look into it, but this part (diode and the clutch switch) seems to have some affect on the voltage I get in neutral as if I use the clutch level, the gear indicator shows sometimes 0 as for neutral.. that is, is working when I use the clutch.. but not always. By repeating squeezing clutch level it will eventually show 0 almost in every case.. but not always.
 

Offline Garrinn

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2016, 06:26:38 pm »
One idea..

Is there some kind of transistors which only works for specific volt range?

In my problem, will only work at 0.x - 1.x volt range? If so I could switch to ground to the indicator?
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2016, 06:44:57 pm »
Quote
I don't know how easy it is.. will look into it, but this part (diode and the clutch switch) seems to have some affect on the voltage I get in neutral as if I use the clutch level, the gear indicator shows sometimes 0 as for neutral.. that is, is working when I use the clutch.. but not always. By repeating squeezing clutch level it will eventually show 0 almost in every case.. but not always.

The clutch switch and stand switch are in parallel with the neutral switch. This makes sense. Check the diodes if you can.

The problem is simply that your neutral switch is either dropping the voltage (0.5V) or there is a problem in that part of the circuit. Take your meter on DC Volts in the lower range and measure the volts from the chassis at the point where the neutral switch is located and to the negative pole of the battery while the transmission is in neutral. If you see a voltage there then it is a grounding problem between the battery and the transmission. If the voltage is 0, then the problem is either the voltage drop of the neutral switch, which no additional diode will fix, or there is a bad connection or bad component elsewhere.

PEACE===>T
PEACE===>T
 

Online PA0PBZ

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2016, 06:52:02 pm »
- which no additional diode will fix -

A diode in the ground lead of the indicator box will lift the ground/reference to 0.5v and cancel out the 0.5v on the neutral wire.
Keyboard error: Press F1 to continue.
 

Online Ian.M

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2016, 07:07:36 pm »
However there is no guarantee that the neutral switch closed voltage will stay stable at +0.5V.  A 12V reed relay is a much safer option, and IMHO is worth it for anything better than a rat-bike with Lucas electrics!

The reed relay should be connected: coil wired between +12V supply and neutral switch, contacts wired between module switch input and module Gnd.  A pullup resistor to +12V may be needed at the module input.  1K2 1/2W would be suitable and would provide a 10mA 'wetting' current to the reed contacts.

Take care to get the coil polarity correct - reed relays can include an integral anti-parallel diode or magnetic bias and polarity reversal may damage it or just not work.

Once its tested, pot it in epoxy!
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2016, 07:14:40 pm »
- which no additional diode will fix -

A diode in the ground lead of the indicator box will lift the ground/reference to 0.5v and cancel out the 0.5v on the neutral wire.

It probably will work, but it doesn't address the main problem.  If there is a bad connection, what happens when it gets worse and there is a 1 volt drop? My key word there was "fix" or repairing the existing problem. A diode on the ground lead of the indicator box will also cause a useful voltage of only 11.5 volts for the indicator box.

PEACE===>T
PEACE===>T
 

Offline Garrinn

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2016, 07:38:01 pm »
- which no additional diode will fix -

A diode in the ground lead of the indicator box will lift the ground/reference to 0.5v and cancel out the 0.5v on the neutral wire.

It probably will work, but it doesn't address the main problem.  If there is a bad connection, what happens when it gets worse and there is a 1 volt drop? My key word there was "fix" or repairing the existing problem. A diode on the ground lead of the indicator box will also cause a useful voltage of only 11.5 volts for the indicator box.

PEACE===>T
Correct me if I'm wrong.. but isn't some kind of logic to have "left over" voltage if the neutral switch just shortcuts 12v wire to the ground?
 

Offline Garrinn

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2016, 07:43:44 pm »
It looks like I'm not the only one with this problem. Found this here. Relay (Mosfet) is somehow in my mind when I mention transistor here before.

Quote
For the £15 - £18 that is being asked on E-Bay they are, actually, quite a good little unit.
Fitted one to my ZZR6 a while ago so have some in depth experience.

As has been noted, it works by passing a magnet over two Hall sensors, one for up one for down. It was an easy fit to the Z, probably the same on most bikes with a remote gear change linkage, but not so easy on a direct gear lever.
In use, I found that mine would not zero reliably when neutral was selected. This turned out to be the neutral switch which was to high a resistance to properly earth the unit, (this resets the display to zero for neutral). I found the only reliable way to make it work was to wire in a 12v relay, using the neutral switch to trigger the relay to earth the gear indicator properly.
The positioning of the Hall sensors is fairly critical to give reliable gear indication, but once the position(s) is found, it actually worked well.
Only real downside is that the display head is a bit large and clunky and can be a bit awkward to fit neatly, there is no mounting kit or even suggestions. Double sided tape lets you stick it to the top yoke or a fairing panel but still looked a bit of an afterthought.
For the money, it works..... but that's all.

Modified..

Did find this in other forum.

Quote
Update:

After getting a CRF wiring diagram I found that the neutral connection passes through a diode. This is why the resistance was high. The diode was behind the headlight, almost beside the neutral light. A easy five minute transfer of wires and problem solved. This may be something to check if you can't get the neutral working on some bikes.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 08:20:17 pm by Garrinn »
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2016, 08:43:54 pm »
I guess that leaves me to ask: Where in the circuit did you tie your indicator?  This should be tied in near the neutral switch, on the cathode side of diode marked #7. If you tied in on anode side, then there is your 0.5 volt drop.

PEACE===>T
PEACE===>T
 

Offline Garrinn

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2016, 08:52:37 pm »
I guess that leaves me to ask: Where in the circuit did you tie your indicator?  This should be tied in near the neutral switch, on the cathode side of diode marked #7. If you tied in on anode side, then there is your 0.5 volt drop.

PEACE===>T
It was about 4-5" from the sensor. Tiny loop I could solder to.
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2016, 09:07:01 pm »
I guess that leaves me to ask: Where in the circuit did you tie your indicator?  This should be tied in near the neutral switch, on the cathode side of diode marked #7. If you tied in on anode side, then there is your 0.5 volt drop.

PEACE===>T
It was about 4-5" from the sensor. Tiny loop I could solder to.

If you are sure that there are no branches or lumps in the wire that could be inline diodes, that should be okay.

The relay that he mentions will work if the coil resistance is pretty high, otherwise you will have the same problem with the relay not actuating. There is no "left over" voltage from the 12V from the indicator because it probably has a resistor in series with that line that should be pulled hard to ground. However, if the neutral switch has a high resistance when closed, then there will be a voltage drop.  Most switches are useful only if they have a low resistance when closed, but in this case, it was not necessary to pull the start relay to ground. 

I have added a circuit in your diagram that should fix your problem. 
Choose a 12 volt DC relay that has a higher resistance coil for R1.

i made a mistake connecting to the plus side of battery, you should connect to base of fuse between #4 and #5.

PEACE===>T
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 09:16:09 pm by tpowell1830 »
PEACE===>T
 
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Offline Garrinn

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2016, 11:48:19 pm »
Thanks again

I understand bikers indention to use relay for grounding the indicator.. but can't figure out how he did it actually. As 12V is the voltage when gear is NOT neutral. That's part of it why I asked about way to mask voltage below around 1v and why I asked about if there where a way or type of transistor (mosfet) which work in specified volt range as 0.2-1V

I don't have knowledge to figure out how I can use relay to open ground with the neutral sensor as the sensor has 12v default and 0.5v when I need it to trigger the relay. It can't be ground all the time, only when voltage is 0.5v

One way would be to "grab" the neutral light, from the ECU I guess and use that as a trigger for mosfet or relay for grounding the indicator neutral wire.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2016, 11:52:18 pm by Garrinn »
 

Offline tpowell1830

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Re: Houston.. I got problem!
« Reply #37 on: December 30, 2016, 12:17:52 am »
The sketch that I showed on your drawing would work.  I hope you sort it out. Over and out from Houston.

PEACE===>T
PEACE===>T
 


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