Author Topic: Atari 2600 resoldering skills  (Read 4419 times)

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Offline tooki

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2020, 10:23:33 am »
Other than Paces channel, Marc Siegel has some old videos and John Gammell (Master IPC trainer) has some recent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/paceworldwide/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/MrMarcSiegel/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/jkgamm041/videos
Yep. The Pace videos on their and Siegel's channels are, IMHO, the best tutorials, despite their age. (Even if the "adventures in rework" is corny as hell! :P) But Gammel's SMD tutorials are brilliant.

Another useful series is the one from TTC Avionics, which shows NASA-standard soldering. Now, the level of pedantry required for aerospace goes far beyond what's needed for ordinary applications, but nonetheless it's a great demonstration of slowing down and taking the time to do each step properly, rather than rushing through!
 

Offline tooki

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Re: How a proper solder joint looks with a few exceptions
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm »
I just need to get better soldering tools. The ones I have are cheap and cause problems like insufficient temperature, bad construction, lack of insulation on the handle, and oxidation. It ruins my joints quite a lot as you can probably tell. I also need a bit more practice. Thankfully, I’m building a class AB amplifier for solder practice, and I will have my brand new soldering kit by then. Better tools = better quality soldering ability = more effective practice = better joints.
What soldering tools do you have now? As others have said, once you've moved beyond a "fire stick" to a proper temperature-controlled soldering station, the differences between stations are minimal, with respect to how well you can solder with them. Even a $25 chinese Hakko clone will do fine, even if it's not as nice as a name-brand station.

So while I fundamentally agree with tggzz that it's a bad workman who blames his tools, I do recognize that truly bad tools can be difficult or impossible to work with, or simply make the job so difficult that a pro can overcome the deficiencies, but a beginner cannot. (This is why I am opposed to the common approach of giving beginners overly cheap or hand-me-down tools. And not just physical tools. For example, as a computer professional, I know how to work around the limitations of a slow computer, while a beginner will get confused or frustrated and click again and again, exacerbating the problem and then being more confused when 10 new documents or browsers all open at the same time...)

So yeah, if you have a truly bad iron, it will put a ceiling on how well you can solder. But if it's an OK tool, a better one won't matter.

I indeed am eager to learn, I just have a tendency to deny my flaws and faults because I want to impress people like you - Because I look up to people like you. It’s a bad habit, but I’m trying to get rid of it. I know things through experience, you see. I can get my hands on something and do something, and point out from what I know how some things work or how to do things.
Classic engineer/scientist. Nothing wrong with that! I'm exactly the same. :) I want to understand how and why things work.

But I don’t really get to learn the basis fundamentals of it too much because you can’t exactly experience the fundamentals until you know them in the first place.
Which is why really good explanations are critical. For soldering, the Pace videos explain the fundamentals better than anyone else, by far. By which I mean that they not only explain what to do (which tons of people get right), but also why (which almost nobody does). By explaining the why, it lets you understand the process much more, allowing you to identify and correct deviations when they occur.

I know how to solder, how a joint is supposed to look, what you should and shouldn’t do... I can make a joint shiny enough to reflect the environment around it... But the small details, even down to tiny things like smearing and shape, I might overlook. I’m not a “details” person down to the precision scale that you are.
Electronics is a discipline where attention to detail is crucial (sometimes maddeningly so). So if this is something you want to get into, then attention to detail is something you will have to learn quickly. You have to identify components accurately, assemble things correctly (since a wrong connection or flipped-around component can fry your circuit), and be methodical in how you troubleshoot. Since the components are small and often delicate, it's a discipline that requires a delicate touch. (I recently helped an apprentice machinist solder a small board for a project they do, including making the enclosure. It was evident he was used to working fast and rough, very unlike the movements needed in electronics.)


One of the examples of "maddening" detail is component datasheets. On the one hand, critical information is often mentioned seemingly in passing, somewhere in the text, rather than in the tables of key specs. And on the other hand, many datasheets cover multiple versions of a component, or closely related models. Typically, rather than having a table of differences between them, they typically just list the specs for each version. Often, the difference is super tiny, and so figuring out what the difference is means poring through the entire datasheet, looking for differences. It can be something as small as how they're packaged.

(As someone who is trained in, and worked for years in, technical communication, there is SO much I would change on most datasheets!!!)


Just know that I am indeed improving, and no matter what I may say, I take your feedback into consideration. I strive to learn and grow more as much as I possibly can.

Fair enough. I'm certainly not criticizing anyone for having imperfect soldering skills (it takes practice, and we all have to start somewhere), only the need to share it prematurely as a model for others. And I most certainly don't want to quash their enthusiasm! :(
You are right. And I understand what you are saying, both in your Great Wall of Text and in this quote. I should definitely not flaunt my skills and claim to know precisely what I’m doing when I in fact still have a lot to learn and do to improve. This is why feedback is crucial, I want to do a professional job and be able to know what I am doing wrong. Your feedback helped me learn proper terms in soldering, as well as what should be happening. I always welcome constructive criticism!
Humility is a good skill. ;) But yeah, just keep learning with an open mind. The people here on eevblog are frequently blunt, but will give you honest feedback and real support, as long as it's clear you're putting in the effort, which you are.



If you want to resolder boards to look minty fresh, you need to suck away the old solder and then clean old flux and dirt away with IPA first, it may need a good scrub.

Solder again with a very clean tip and apply fresh solder. If the solder doesn't wet well (you can tell as it balls up instead of flowing into the joint and the entire pad) you may need to add additional flux, clean or look at the temp. If you stay on the joint for more than a couple of seconds or go in multiple times without adding flux it will reduce the wetting and look clumpy. Last step is to clean away residue.
This one point cannot be emphasized enough. Obviously, beginners take longer to do it, which is normal, thus causing some imperfect joints. So it's instinct to go back and try to rework it to make it better, not realizing that it almost always makes it worse. When learning, resist the urge to rework joints that are merely not perfect. Instead, practice making tons of new joints, so that you learn to get them right the first time.

When a non-practice joint is unsatisfactory and needs to be reworked, you may be able to get away with adding flux and reheating, but if possible, just suck off the existing solder and do it from scratch.



Something that may be useful to you (and if not useful, then at least amusing) is seeing what NOT to do. So here are some of the many examples on youtube that are wrong in various ways:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKDfmGeSKmwP6SdGDHhu6hg/videos — impatient, doesn't give joints enough time to heat up; frequently goes back and reworks joints over and over, regardless of whether they needed rework or not

https://www.youtube.com/user/filear/videos?view=0&sort=p&shelf_id=4 — Way too much solder (using too-thick solder), not using the holes in solder lugs (wtf?), wrong tip size for work, etc.

— nearly always way too much solder. Sloppy as hell SMD. (An outstanding channel otherwise, mind you.)

https://www.youtube.com/user/thebenheckshow/videos  — before 2019 (when the channel changed ownership/host), e.g.


 — Ben Heck has a good eye for wire routing, but his soldering technique is atrocious: way too much solder, super sloppy SMD, grungy old oversized tools (get finer tweezers that aren't worn out, Ben!!), not enough flux, flood-and-suck SMD soldering, and lots of bad advice. (Also, whoever adds the little pop-up tips and tricks overlays is clearly not an electronics person, and frequently says things that are just plain wrong.)


And of course, the absolute undisputed coup de grâce of bad soldering, the worst the internet has ever seen so far: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/horrible-solder-job-buyer-wants-money-back-after-butchering-kit-with-his-skill/
 
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Offline tggzzz

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Re: How a proper solder joint looks with a few exceptions
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2020, 12:22:56 pm »
But I don’t really get to learn the basis fundamentals of it too much because you can’t exactly experience the fundamentals until you know them in the first place.
Which is why really good explanations are critical. For soldering, the Pace videos explain the fundamentals better than anyone else, by far. By which I mean that they not only explain what to do (which tons of people get right), but also why (which almost nobody does). By explaining the why, it lets you understand the process much more, allowing you to identify and correct deviations when they occur.

The Pace videos also show what happens when you get something wrong. Very few tutorials give that vital info.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
Having fun doing more, with less
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: How a proper solder joint looks with a few exceptions
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2020, 12:26:46 pm »
But I don’t really get to learn the basis fundamentals of it too much because you can’t exactly experience the fundamentals until you know them in the first place.
Which is why really good explanations are critical. For soldering, the Pace videos explain the fundamentals better than anyone else, by far. By which I mean that they not only explain what to do (which tons of people get right), but also why (which almost nobody does). By explaining the why, it lets you understand the process much more, allowing you to identify and correct deviations when they occur.

The Pace videos also show what happens when you get something wrong. Very few tutorials give that vital info.
Very good point!!

Pace really did produce a pedagogic masterpiece in that series.
 

Offline WyverntekGameRepairsTopic starter

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Re: How a proper solder joint looks with a few exceptions
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2020, 11:07:26 pm »
What soldering tools do you have now?
This crappy iron from Harbour Freight.
(See attachment)

Classic engineer / scientist. Nothing wrong with that! :)
Glad I’m not the only one, that makes me feel loads better  :phew:
But yes, I am always eager to learn. I always have more room for improvement (I think I’ve proven that one quite clearly, haha), and I need to be willing to accept all manners of teachings, no matter how blunt.

Which is why good explanations are critical.
Agreed. And yes, I’ve been checking out those PACE videos.

Electronics is a discipline where attention to detail is crucial (sometimes maddeningly so).
Yep, and I am very patient when it comes to electronics. Sometimes I do a project that I am trying to complete as quickly as possible though, and of course I mess it up in a small way (as evident by solder smearing from the switchboard) that I overlook. I (having been a hobbyist since I was 7) know how to orient things correctly and read things properly... I can design and route a circuit properly... but of course patience is essential - My first functional prototype NES controller board I made failed because I had the IC in the incorrect configuration from misreading my schematic (which was clearly marked!!). I rushed, and as you said rushing will mess something up in the delicate art of electronics. I was in a hurry to finish reflowing my switchboard because I was doing it at my college campus, and I had only about an hour to hunt down parts and replace components. So yeah, rushing is a definite no-no. You are right in that I need to be more patient.

Humility is a good skill.
Indeed. Thanks for the kind words, btw. :D
I’m starting to be more open about bluntness, mainly because I’m not a kid anymore and I need to start getting used to blunt honesty - It’s a part of everyday life. It is also concise in most cases, so it helps leave out unnecessary details when pointing out the flaws in ideas or actions.
Besides, it is constructive criticism that can be learnt from and built upon.

This one point cannot be emphasised enough.
Definitely. I didn’t know that specific technique until you guys informed me of it, and it makes sense to me now. Very helpful advice that I will have in my essential skills from now on. Thanks! :D
Also, looking at that forum post, I fell a lot better about my soldering skills now... that soldering is disgusting. It looks like someone tried to use needle nose pliers to clip the leads from the components. The dry joints, cold joints, excessively long lead tailing, the smears... I might have nightmares from that. That’s nightmare fuel for engineers. And the fact the dude has a HAM license is disturbing... I’d run away as fast as I could if he offered to help me fix something. Yeck.

I’ll check out those videos as well.

Thanks again :D
-Sterling Ordes
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Offline tooki

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #30 on: January 03, 2020, 12:59:03 pm »
OK, given the crappy iron you had to work with, you did very good work.  :-+ A real temperature-controlled soldering station, even a cheap one, will be much better.
 
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Offline TERRA Operative

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #31 on: January 03, 2020, 01:39:03 pm »
Even a cheap ebay Hakko knockoff soldering station will be better than that rug burner. :D
Where does all this test equipment keep coming from?!?

https://www.youtube.com/NearFarMedia/
 
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #32 on: January 03, 2020, 05:30:28 pm »
A bit late to the party here, but I must also add - I'm impressed with the results you got given that you were using that Hazard Fraught Tools iron.  This is definitely an instance where a good bit of the blame for the less-than-stellar result lies with the tool.  Get a temp controlled station and some good chisel tips and you'll be amazed at how much easier it will seem and how much better your results will be when you can actually get some heat into the pad and component lead.

Keep up the learning and good work.   :-+

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline boffin

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #33 on: January 03, 2020, 06:07:52 pm »
Dump the hazard-fraught soldering iron. 

If you want to limit your spending, for under $20 you can buy a Yihua 947 off Amazon for under $20; which is worlds better, with temperature control etc etc.
 

Offline WyverntekGameRepairsTopic starter

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #34 on: January 03, 2020, 06:15:34 pm »
A bit late to the party here, but I must also add - I'm impressed with the results you got given that you were using that Hazard Fraught Tools iron.  This is definitely an instance where a good bit of the blame for the less-than-stellar result lies with the tool.  Get a temp controlled station and some good chisel tips and you'll be amazed at how much easier it will seem and how much better your results will be when you can actually get some heat into the pad and component lead.

Keep up the learning and good work.   :-+

-Pat

To both you and Tooki, thanks for the kind words :D
I actually recently bought a new kit from Amazon that looks hopeful. I ordered a spool of leaded solder as well so I have new solder to work with. By the reviews, it looks like a good kit until I get enough money for a more professional setup. See attachment.

It arrives tomorrow, and I’m very excited to finally use something good. Erm.. well.. better than the cheapie Chinese Hazard Fright rubbish.
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #35 on: January 03, 2020, 07:14:21 pm »
Put a chisel tip in for through hole PCB work for sure.  I can't recall the last time I used a conical tip - they stink for through hole work as until the connection wets there's almost NO thermal contact to heat the pad and lead.  The flat side of a chisel tip will get things hot enough to melt the solder a lot faster, letting you get in and out more quickly giving less time for oxidation or overheating.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #36 on: January 04, 2020, 08:30:27 am »
Put a chisel tip in for through hole PCB work for sure.  I can't recall the last time I used a conical tip - they stink for through hole work as until the connection wets there's almost NO thermal contact to heat the pad and lead.  The flat side of a chisel tip will get things hot enough to melt the solder a lot faster, letting you get in and out more quickly giving less time for oxidation or overheating.
I couldn’t agree more. I am baffled that anyone likes conical tips, as I can’t identify any situation where they’re superior to a chisel (or a more specialized tip), and thus even more baffled that some brands of soldering stations ship with conical by default.


A bit late to the party here, but I must also add - I'm impressed with the results you got given that you were using that Hazard Fraught Tools iron.  This is definitely an instance where a good bit of the blame for the less-than-stellar result lies with the tool.  Get a temp controlled station and some good chisel tips and you'll be amazed at how much easier it will seem and how much better your results will be when you can actually get some heat into the pad and component lead.

Keep up the learning and good work.   :-+

-Pat

To both you and Tooki, thanks for the kind words :D
I actually recently bought a new kit from Amazon that looks hopeful. I ordered a spool of leaded solder as well so I have new solder to work with. By the reviews, it looks like a good kit until I get enough money for a more professional setup. See attachment.

It arrives tomorrow, and I’m very excited to finally use something good. Erm.. well.. better than the cheapie Chinese Hazard Fright rubbish.
You’re very welcome!

It’ll be better, but not the same as a real station. (It seems unclear as to whether those cheap irons with a knob on the handle are actually temperature controlled or just a “light dimmer” style power control. The original Hakko of that style is temperature controlled, but the Chinese clones, who knows...) Even within the realm of single-heat fire sticks, there are big differences. My very first iron, when I was around 8 years old, was a radio shack one that looked much like your old one, probably 20W or so, and I never managed to make nice joints with it. Upgrading to the much nicer 15W radio shack one made a huge difference. But when I finally got a real soldering station a few years ago... omg, a revelation. Fire sticks tend to do well with one size of joint (since they have a fixed heat output), e.g. small iron for small joints, bigger one for bigger joints. A proper temperature controlled station (that is, with thermostatic regulation using a sensor in the tip), on the other hand, is self-adjusting constantly, so it’ll pump in more energy for bigger, heat-sucking joints, while remaining gingerly for small ones. Soldering with those seems effortless by comparison.


For what it’s worth, if I were in the market for a soldering station today, I’d probably spend around $250 for a Pace ADS200 with a couple of tips. (That’s a station that will serve you for the next 25 years at least.) But if that’s out of your budget and you don’t have a birthday or graduation gift request coming up ;D,  even the $20 Chinese soldering stations will get you surprisingly good performance. And the ever-popular Hakko FX888D, while not state of the art as such, is still a great starter station. And the TD100 and TD80 open-sourceish irons, while they do have some small limitations, perform FAR above their price point, by all accounts.



I hope you purchased name brand solder; cheap Chinese solder sucks, no matter what alloy it purports to be. (While leaded Kester is my favorite solder, I’d choose a name-brand lead-free over Chinese leaded any day for normal use. Don’t believe the anti-lead-free hysteria: while leaded is indisputably easier for work with, the difference is nowhere near as big as many people claim. With that said, old boards will not tolerate the higher temperatures of lead-free, so DO NOT use lead-free to repair any device that originally shipped with leaded!!!!)
 
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Offline Cubdriver

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #37 on: January 04, 2020, 11:41:28 am »
About the only place I can see a conical tip being very useful is in old school hand wired chassis work with terminal strips and tube sockets and the like, where it can be poked into the hole in the terminal lug among the component leads, making contact with things that are then all around it.  (Though even then I typically use a chisel).  As to why all the cheap irons come with them, I suppose because being symmetrical along its length, it's the easiest and cheapest type to make.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 
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Offline WyverntekGameRepairsTopic starter

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2020, 04:14:45 pm »
I’m baffled that anyone likes conical tips

Personally, I like the small, pencil-like conical tips because they are great for tight joints in very small, compact, and awkward places where a chisel tip would typically not fit (I.e. a THT joint in between densely packed BGA chips), and even some medium and large SMD work. They are good for tinning small magnet wire as well. But that’s just me.  :-//

I hope you purchased name brand solder;...
It’s not a well known name I don’t think, but it has good reviews. See attachment.

Don’t believe the anti-lead-free hysteria...
Eh, the hysteria on my part is the fact that lead free solder has more chemical additives to make it melt easier, and this can harm you faster than leaded solder can. The flux contains a very harsh reducing additive that can actually irritate the eyes and sinuses (as well as any other moist/wet membrane and tissue in your body), and the fumes are toxic. Leaded solder fumes are also pretty toxic, but since leaded solder does not contain harsh reducing additive in the flux, it is less potent and dangerous than lead free solder. It’s not just the melting point I’m worried about, but also the health affecting repercussions that come from the different solder types. As long as you work in a ventilated area, wash your hands, and keep your workspace clean, leaded solder is not as toxic as lead free. However, it is okay to use lead free solder for manufacturing if you are manufacturing something to be distributed to other countries that prohibit use of leaded solder in products, as long as you are ventilating the area really, really well and you are not in direct contact with the fumes. Lead free is always the best choice otherwise. Since good joints with leaded solder are shiny, it is easy to check your joints. But since lead free solder hardens with a dull, matte finish, it is hard to identify a bad joint unless you have worked with lead free solder for a very long time and really know what you are doing. Also, the flux used in lead free soldering actually has a shelf life since oxygen attacks the chemicals in it more easily. This oxidises the flux and renders it unusable and seriously worsens the efficacy of the core in the solder.
Information obtained from: https://www.quora.com/What-are-the-disadvantages-of-lead-free-solder-vs-lead-solder

-Sterling Ordes
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 07:53:01 pm by WyverntekGameRepairs »
-Sterling Ordes
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Offline WyverntekGameRepairsTopic starter

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Re: Atari 2600 resoldering skills
« Reply #39 on: January 04, 2020, 07:47:31 pm »
 :palm:
I WAS VERY WRONG.
My package with the new soldering iron and solder came in! I was really excited, especially because I now had a proper setup with proper solder... or at least I thought.

The soldering iron kit was fantastic as expected (for its price, I mean), and functioned perfectly. It looks like it uses a dimmer controller to adjust the heater element temperature using a triode. It even actually has a little indicator that lights up when the iron is on. Very well built for only $18.

But the solder I got.. Is absolute turd material. It is leaded, meaning it is supposed to harden with a shiny finish, not a layer of matte.. But alas. See attachment.
I must have seen a different product with good reviews or something, or the people who buy this are ignorant, or worst case scenario I happened to get a bad batch. I’m going to ask for a refund, because this is not acceptable. The temperature was set correctly (max 230c, I set the iron to around 200c), and the tip was cleaned and tinned properly. The joint was completely clean. This solder is just really dirty by the looks of it, or it has little to no flux. Hell, even the tube of solder that came with the iron is better than this spool of lead-plated turd.
You can see the desoldering job I did in one of the photos, and it is kinda sloppy. I tried my iron and did a quick desolder job to see how effective it is. I used the chisel tip, and clearly it took a bit of getting used to, but I got there eventually.

Name of the crappy solder brand is B&C by the look of the logo. It also has WYCTIN in big letters at the bottom, dunno if that’s an identification number or model number. Origin of manufacture, surprise surprise, China.
Contents are as follows:
Sn - 60
Pb - 40
Flux - 1.8%
-Sterling Ordes
Wyverntek Game Repairs
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