Electronics > Beginners

Atari 2600 resoldering skills

<< < (6/8) > >>

tooki:

--- Quote from: Shock on January 01, 2020, 11:00:46 pm ---Other than Paces channel, Marc Siegel has some old videos and John Gammell (Master IPC trainer) has some recent videos.

https://www.youtube.com/user/paceworldwide/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/MrMarcSiegel/videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/jkgamm041/videos

--- End quote ---
Yep. The Pace videos on their and Siegel's channels are, IMHO, the best tutorials, despite their age. (Even if the "adventures in rework" is corny as hell! :P) But Gammel's SMD tutorials are brilliant.

Another useful series is the one from TTC Avionics, which shows NASA-standard soldering. Now, the level of pedantry required for aerospace goes far beyond what's needed for ordinary applications, but nonetheless it's a great demonstration of slowing down and taking the time to do each step properly, rather than rushing through!

tooki:

--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---I just need to get better soldering tools. The ones I have are cheap and cause problems like insufficient temperature, bad construction, lack of insulation on the handle, and oxidation. It ruins my joints quite a lot as you can probably tell. I also need a bit more practice. Thankfully, I’m building a class AB amplifier for solder practice, and I will have my brand new soldering kit by then. Better tools = better quality soldering ability = more effective practice = better joints.

--- End quote ---
What soldering tools do you have now? As others have said, once you've moved beyond a "fire stick" to a proper temperature-controlled soldering station, the differences between stations are minimal, with respect to how well you can solder with them. Even a $25 chinese Hakko clone will do fine, even if it's not as nice as a name-brand station.

So while I fundamentally agree with tggzz that it's a bad workman who blames his tools, I do recognize that truly bad tools can be difficult or impossible to work with, or simply make the job so difficult that a pro can overcome the deficiencies, but a beginner cannot. (This is why I am opposed to the common approach of giving beginners overly cheap or hand-me-down tools. And not just physical tools. For example, as a computer professional, I know how to work around the limitations of a slow computer, while a beginner will get confused or frustrated and click again and again, exacerbating the problem and then being more confused when 10 new documents or browsers all open at the same time...)

So yeah, if you have a truly bad iron, it will put a ceiling on how well you can solder. But if it's an OK tool, a better one won't matter.


--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---I indeed am eager to learn, I just have a tendency to deny my flaws and faults because I want to impress people like you - Because I look up to people like you. It’s a bad habit, but I’m trying to get rid of it. I know things through experience, you see. I can get my hands on something and do something, and point out from what I know how some things work or how to do things.
--- End quote ---
Classic engineer/scientist. Nothing wrong with that! I'm exactly the same. :) I want to understand how and why things work.


--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---But I don’t really get to learn the basis fundamentals of it too much because you can’t exactly experience the fundamentals until you know them in the first place.
--- End quote ---
Which is why really good explanations are critical. For soldering, the Pace videos explain the fundamentals better than anyone else, by far. By which I mean that they not only explain what to do (which tons of people get right), but also why (which almost nobody does). By explaining the why, it lets you understand the process much more, allowing you to identify and correct deviations when they occur.


--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---I know how to solder, how a joint is supposed to look, what you should and shouldn’t do... I can make a joint shiny enough to reflect the environment around it... But the small details, even down to tiny things like smearing and shape, I might overlook. I’m not a “details” person down to the precision scale that you are.
--- End quote ---
Electronics is a discipline where attention to detail is crucial (sometimes maddeningly so). So if this is something you want to get into, then attention to detail is something you will have to learn quickly. You have to identify components accurately, assemble things correctly (since a wrong connection or flipped-around component can fry your circuit), and be methodical in how you troubleshoot. Since the components are small and often delicate, it's a discipline that requires a delicate touch. (I recently helped an apprentice machinist solder a small board for a project they do, including making the enclosure. It was evident he was used to working fast and rough, very unlike the movements needed in electronics.)


One of the examples of "maddening" detail is component datasheets. On the one hand, critical information is often mentioned seemingly in passing, somewhere in the text, rather than in the tables of key specs. And on the other hand, many datasheets cover multiple versions of a component, or closely related models. Typically, rather than having a table of differences between them, they typically just list the specs for each version. Often, the difference is super tiny, and so figuring out what the difference is means poring through the entire datasheet, looking for differences. It can be something as small as how they're packaged.

(As someone who is trained in, and worked for years in, technical communication, there is SO much I would change on most datasheets!!!)



--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---Just know that I am indeed improving, and no matter what I may say, I take your feedback into consideration. I strive to learn and grow more as much as I possibly can.


--- Quote from: tooki on December 31, 2019, 04:34:13 pm ---Fair enough. I'm certainly not criticizing anyone for having imperfect soldering skills (it takes practice, and we all have to start somewhere), only the need to share it prematurely as a model for others. And I most certainly don't want to quash their enthusiasm! :(

--- End quote ---
You are right. And I understand what you are saying, both in your Great Wall of Text and in this quote. I should definitely not flaunt my skills and claim to know precisely what I’m doing when I in fact still have a lot to learn and do to improve. This is why feedback is crucial, I want to do a professional job and be able to know what I am doing wrong. Your feedback helped me learn proper terms in soldering, as well as what should be happening. I always welcome constructive criticism!

--- End quote ---
Humility is a good skill. ;) But yeah, just keep learning with an open mind. The people here on eevblog are frequently blunt, but will give you honest feedback and real support, as long as it's clear you're putting in the effort, which you are.




--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---
--- Quote from: Shock on December 30, 2019, 03:38:55 pm ---If you want to resolder boards to look minty fresh, you need to suck away the old solder and then clean old flux and dirt away with IPA first, it may need a good scrub.

Solder again with a very clean tip and apply fresh solder. If the solder doesn't wet well (you can tell as it balls up instead of flowing into the joint and the entire pad) you may need to add additional flux, clean or look at the temp. If you stay on the joint for more than a couple of seconds or go in multiple times without adding flux it will reduce the wetting and look clumpy. Last step is to clean away residue.
--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---
This one point cannot be emphasized enough. Obviously, beginners take longer to do it, which is normal, thus causing some imperfect joints. So it's instinct to go back and try to rework it to make it better, not realizing that it almost always makes it worse. When learning, resist the urge to rework joints that are merely not perfect. Instead, practice making tons of new joints, so that you learn to get them right the first time.

When a non-practice joint is unsatisfactory and needs to be reworked, you may be able to get away with adding flux and reheating, but if possible, just suck off the existing solder and do it from scratch.



Something that may be useful to you (and if not useful, then at least amusing) is seeing what NOT to do. So here are some of the many examples on youtube that are wrong in various ways:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCKDfmGeSKmwP6SdGDHhu6hg/videos — impatient, doesn't give joints enough time to heat up; frequently goes back and reworks joints over and over, regardless of whether they needed rework or not

https://www.youtube.com/user/filear/videos?view=0&sort=p&shelf_id=4 — Way too much solder (using too-thick solder), not using the holes in solder lugs (wtf?), wrong tip size for work, etc.

— nearly always way too much solder. Sloppy as hell SMD. (An outstanding channel otherwise, mind you.)

https://www.youtube.com/user/thebenheckshow/videos  — before 2019 (when the channel changed ownership/host), e.g.


 — Ben Heck has a good eye for wire routing, but his soldering technique is atrocious: way too much solder, super sloppy SMD, grungy old oversized tools (get finer tweezers that aren't worn out, Ben!!), not enough flux, flood-and-suck SMD soldering, and lots of bad advice. (Also, whoever adds the little pop-up tips and tricks overlays is clearly not an electronics person, and frequently says things that are just plain wrong.)


And of course, the absolute undisputed coup de grâce of bad soldering, the worst the internet has ever seen so far: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/horrible-solder-job-buyer-wants-money-back-after-butchering-kit-with-his-skill/

tggzzz:

--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---But I don’t really get to learn the basis fundamentals of it too much because you can’t exactly experience the fundamentals until you know them in the first place.
--- End quote ---
Which is why really good explanations are critical. For soldering, the Pace videos explain the fundamentals better than anyone else, by far. By which I mean that they not only explain what to do (which tons of people get right), but also why (which almost nobody does). By explaining the why, it lets you understand the process much more, allowing you to identify and correct deviations when they occur.

--- End quote ---

The Pace videos also show what happens when you get something wrong. Very few tutorials give that vital info.

tooki:

--- Quote from: tggzzz on January 02, 2020, 12:22:56 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---
--- Quote from: WyverntekGameRepairs on January 01, 2020, 05:50:05 pm ---But I don’t really get to learn the basis fundamentals of it too much because you can’t exactly experience the fundamentals until you know them in the first place.
--- End quote ---
Which is why really good explanations are critical. For soldering, the Pace videos explain the fundamentals better than anyone else, by far. By which I mean that they not only explain what to do (which tons of people get right), but also why (which almost nobody does). By explaining the why, it lets you understand the process much more, allowing you to identify and correct deviations when they occur.

--- End quote ---

The Pace videos also show what happens when you get something wrong. Very few tutorials give that vital info.

--- End quote ---
Very good point!!

Pace really did produce a pedagogic masterpiece in that series.

WyverntekGameRepairs:

--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---What soldering tools do you have now?

--- End quote ---
This crappy iron from Harbour Freight.
(See attachment)


--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---Classic engineer / scientist. Nothing wrong with that! :)

--- End quote ---
Glad I’m not the only one, that makes me feel loads better  :phew:
But yes, I am always eager to learn. I always have more room for improvement (I think I’ve proven that one quite clearly, haha), and I need to be willing to accept all manners of teachings, no matter how blunt.


--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---Which is why good explanations are critical.

--- End quote ---
Agreed. And yes, I’ve been checking out those PACE videos.


--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---Electronics is a discipline where attention to detail is crucial (sometimes maddeningly so).

--- End quote ---
Yep, and I am very patient when it comes to electronics. Sometimes I do a project that I am trying to complete as quickly as possible though, and of course I mess it up in a small way (as evident by solder smearing from the switchboard) that I overlook. I (having been a hobbyist since I was 7) know how to orient things correctly and read things properly... I can design and route a circuit properly... but of course patience is essential - My first functional prototype NES controller board I made failed because I had the IC in the incorrect configuration from misreading my schematic (which was clearly marked!!). I rushed, and as you said rushing will mess something up in the delicate art of electronics. I was in a hurry to finish reflowing my switchboard because I was doing it at my college campus, and I had only about an hour to hunt down parts and replace components. So yeah, rushing is a definite no-no. You are right in that I need to be more patient.


--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---Humility is a good skill.

--- End quote ---
Indeed. Thanks for the kind words, btw. :D
I’m starting to be more open about bluntness, mainly because I’m not a kid anymore and I need to start getting used to blunt honesty - It’s a part of everyday life. It is also concise in most cases, so it helps leave out unnecessary details when pointing out the flaws in ideas or actions.
Besides, it is constructive criticism that can be learnt from and built upon.


--- Quote from: tooki on January 02, 2020, 12:04:55 pm ---This one point cannot be emphasised enough.

--- End quote ---
Definitely. I didn’t know that specific technique until you guys informed me of it, and it makes sense to me now. Very helpful advice that I will have in my essential skills from now on. Thanks! :D
Also, looking at that forum post, I fell a lot better about my soldering skills now... that soldering is disgusting. It looks like someone tried to use needle nose pliers to clip the leads from the components. The dry joints, cold joints, excessively long lead tailing, the smears... I might have nightmares from that. That’s nightmare fuel for engineers. And the fact the dude has a HAM license is disturbing... I’d run away as fast as I could if he offered to help me fix something. Yeck.

I’ll check out those videos as well.

Thanks again :D

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod